Biblical Swirling Finale: Are Your Mixed Babies An Abomination???

Biblical Swirling Finale: Are Your Mixed Babies An Abomination???

Ah, the joys of interracial love. You, he and your beautiful little…Gasp!…Mamzers, today known as biracials. Or are they?

Author : "LorMarie"

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Ah, the joys of interracial love. You, he and your beautiful little…Gasp!…Mamzers, today known as biracials. Or are they? Take a look at a passage from the good book:

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

A lot of people look at the passage and think, a child born out of wedlock. That’s because we are looking at the word through the eyes of the English language.  The original word, mamzer,  was a lot more damning than simply being born OOW.  It referred to the offspring of a “couple” that could never be recognized or legitimized under Jewish law, even if they wanted to marry. That would include a child of incest, adultery, and yes, a mixed marriage.  But like a lot of concepts in the bible, you have to consider the whole picture and not the isolated verse.  When we think of  mixed marriages in the biblical sense, the image of an Israelite and a pagan should come to mind rather than people of different races per se. If you consider verse 3 within the same chapter, the Moabites are similarly rejected:

3: An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

As mentioned in my first Biblical Swirling post, Ruth was a Moabitess.

People make the racial argument focusing on the word “generations.” As crazy as it sounds, some actually believe that there is a racial element to the word generation. Racists maintain that it takes ten generations for mixed blood to be erased from the genes of a population. So once the genes are ten generations away from race mixing, they are racially acceptable to the Abrahamic God. So in a sense, segregation did exist but not in the same way that is familiar to us.

If being mixed was an abomination, why would a person of mixed heritage become a recognized inspired figure of the New Testement (Acts 16)?

Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.

3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

That’s right! Timothy (of I and II Timothy) was the child of a mixed marriage.  So, are mixed children an abomination? Probably to someone truly ignorant.

 

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Skayi 574 pts

The bible is centered around Jewish people, so i would imagine back then they were discouraging mixing of any sorts. The bible has never been kind to us.

AshleyFisher 397 pts

Sorry if I came off bashy but as a Historian I cannot let certain things pass. No you know some marriage history.

Toni_M 20075 pts moderator

Friendly reminder: This post is about "Biblical Swirling", not about bashing people's religious views. Just a friendly reminder that your feelings about Christianity could best be saved for another more on topic post. 

 

We welcome ALL belief systems here, and if you want your beliefs to be respected, you should do the same for others, and not expect that every Christian walking down the street is (by the "old laws") waiting to bust you upside the head with a rock. Not everyone who believes in God is emotionally invested in what total strangers do or don't do. But I recognize that some people may be spoiling for a fight, and this isn't the post for it.

 

So let's stay on topic, please.

 

Thanks!

DWB 8812 pts

 Toni_M Oy vey! You are of course, 100% correct ... sometimes its best just to hold your tongue ... er ... fingers. ;-)

LorMarie 1361 pts

 Toni_M

 It is especially important for everyone to know that all religions and belief systems contain haters...including paganism. After all, paganism is popular among the hardcore neo nazi and white nationalist crowds. So there really is no contest and should definitely be no finger pointing, IMO.

AshleyFisher 397 pts

Just some food for thought on people who consider marriage a Christian construct. It's not. It's a fully pagan construct and for hundreds of years the Catholic church was against it. A lot of the European countries wouldn't even recognize marriages because to them it was a pagan thing and everyone was supposed to be a followerer of Christ. Of course the common peoples didn't listen and after a while the rich bought it back so they could make alliances but for the love of all that is holy MARRIAGE IS NOT A CHRISTIAN THING AT ALL.

Criticalthinker 385 pts

 AshleyFisherDisclaimer* In no way do I intend to bash anyone's belief systems or religious ideologies. I do not hold any bias against what they feel is the truth of their own journey at this juncture in their life to respect what Toni said, and this post.

 

But  Ashley, I would not have character if I did not come to support your facts. I thought Pagans were against the church and God and all that jazz until I came across documentation that it is not that at all. In fact, they were the FIRST to do unions of marriage, they believe in a divine being but just not the man made structural systems that  most religions say you have to abide by . You're exactly correct. I have a colleague friend who is an anthropologist and a monk friend  who searched this and noted that indeed this is truth. There is a series of books I told two others that will further knock your socks off in this area...The Ringing Cedars of Russia...I'm just letting you know personally that I know what you speak of.

 

So everyone else, I just wanted  to tell Ashley this and not debate on any grounds of what is true or not. It was just to let her know, more out here have uncovered these facts...i just didn't know how to private message her in regards to what she said...

AshleyFisher 397 pts

 Criticalthinker Ah yes. Thank you. It's nice to note that not all history is lost in the tale of the victors. A lot of people just don't know that fact because they are content not to dig deeper. But as much as I am not a fan of religion the historical aspect of it is fascinating with it's effect on the human race. So thank you for backing me up on this.

Criticalthinker 385 pts

 AshleyFisher Wanna know what that wise monk said to me one day? "Truth is truth whether people choose to "believe" it or not."

 

Powerful, eh? And...

 

"Beliefs are structured ideologies, perceptions formed from one's experience, or environment that congeals into a person's understanding of the world"

 

So in effect, beliefs are still based on a mixture of a little truth, a little bias and the information you gleaned from your environment by experience...

 

I watch what I say when I say , "I believe" in something...I now say, I'm convicted of its truth...

 

ironcowboy 348 pts

CriticalthinkerAshleyFisher

The version I use is:  “the truth is never what you are told it is, it is what you choose to believe.”

 

zipporah 1911 pts

the truth be told...ALL MODERN JEWS ARE MAMZERS if thats the case...the most coming from Russia and Germany--the H'wood kind...check their real names if you dont believe me--stein, klein, etc.warner,goldwyn

zipporah 1911 pts

Danielovich, Rubenstein..real names of MAMZERS---LOL--OK...Rabbi Johnathan Cahn may be close to being a nonmixed JEW

SirLoinDeBeef 2655 pts

It helps to be familiar with the Holy Quran, the Rig Vedas, and the basic tenants of The Buhdda, as well.

Law Wanxi 5948 pts

Oy, mamzern; feh! A shanda fur die Goyim und fur die Yiddin. Was eyn tsuris; gornisht helfn.

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself; poor impulse control, I guess.....

 

zipporah 1911 pts

WOW didnt know you knew yiddish

simpleebisou 128 pts

I also want to throw in there from a Christian viewpoint, that two women were considered unsuitable brides: Not only Ruth the Moabitess, but also Rahab (the so-called harlot).  Rahab provided shelter and protection to the Hebrew spies when they crossed over the Jordan to survey the land. Ruth, of course, is known for loving her mother-in-law so dearly after her husband dies that she returned to Israel with her and remarried another Hebrew.  


Both women are depicted to have known and recognized the Hebrew God as sovereign.  According to Christianity, God rewarded that by making them ancestors to Jesus. So, think about Jesus, the most prominent religious figure as the Song of God, comes from a mixed heritage.   They are listed in his genealogy and many say because of their faith God healed/restored what their ancestors had broken.  With the Moabites, it was Lot's daughter's incest with their father.  Rahab was a Canaanite and they, (I think cannot be sure) refused to allow the Hebrews to enter safely (which led to the "Battle" of Jericho and the only safety provided to Rahab's family). 

 

Race really had nothing to do with it!

heyimPearlilikefries 2119 pts

It's like people can't freaking read! LOL I have read the Bible lots and lots of times and I was able to see that 'race' had little to do with anything. But more of beliefs. 

 

Really... I  don't think anything in the book makes sense. I didn't get that from other people.. but just by reading the book out loud.. makes a HUGE difference. So no I don't believe any of that.. no Christian, Islam, Judaism.. none of that. BUT I'm not necessarily an atheist either. I truly believe that their IS a God/Goddess(s). I think that the universe is like a God. Or the sun could be a God/Goddess. 

 

I think it's more of a spiritual/science thing. I beleive in higher powers and natural designs. 

 

Sometimes I feel that people don't want to credit themselves for what they do. Humans really are amazing creatures and maybe we are our own Gods/Goddesses in a way. 

tracyreneejones 4025 pts

I could kiss you for this. The one reason I detest religion is because ppl hide behind it and others don't reach their full potential because of it. So much shame and damaged behind 'beliefs' and peoples interpretation of myths and parables. Seemed silly since about age 7 to me. @astringofpearls

Renaissanceman 89 pts

 tracyreneejones  astringofpearls

 Especially sexual guilt prevents people from reaching their full potential. Yet. there are Liberal denominations within Christianity, as well as Judaism.

Veron 1412 pts

 astringofpearls "Humans really are amazing creatures and maybe we are our own Gods/Goddesses in a way."

 

+1000.  I tell people all the time that they are divine and so powerful, and we are all connected through the divine energy that flows through all of us.  It really does hold some people back when they place their power outside of themselves, and turn into something intangible and, worse, above them instead of realizing that they can be their own savior.

zipporah 1911 pts

yes, the BIBLE had nothing to do with race but beliefs-- BUT THE WRITINGS of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had EVERYTHING to do with race....it would be nice if Mormons didnt have to study them..but its still on their books...1978 or not.Humans arent our own gods/goddesses because were not......heck they thought Smith was equal to JESUS CHRIST!!

ironcowboy 348 pts

Well as a Pagan… I say the Bible is an abomination… But that is just me...

 

Every single major construct of the Bible occurred in other religions before it occurred in the Bible!   But every time it occurred in the other religions, it was called a myth! Magically, when the exact same things allegedly occur in the Bible, it is a fact.  IMHO Christianity is basically a group of cultural thief’s… but that is just my HO…

 

This does not mean the Bible is bad… it’s just that one must recognize that it’s an assortment of various religions and events that have wide variance, and many practitioners today engage in wholesale violation of large parts of the good book… like in Matthew chap 6, where Jesus instructs Christians not to pray in “church”   and where a Christian pays in church, he is called by Jesus a Hypocrite who will have this reward.    

 

This is exactly one major reason I am a Pagan… the God and Goddess that I love does not excluded anyone…  All are welcome into the condition of humanity… regardless of skin tone… one trait of the Christian God that I find particularly deplorable is how he, the male only God… how he treats all the people who never heard the words of Jesus preached in his or her life… Hello fire lake, too bad you never herd the good news!

 

Biracial babies are a blessing from the creator!  IMHO… 

Criticalthinker 385 pts

 ironcowboy I had to comment to you because most people do not critically think for themselves like this. I'm not against the Bible either but it isn't the only book of truth (leatned this on  my own spiritual journey)...Anyways. love your thought processes...

ironcowboy 348 pts

Criticalthinker

Critical thinking is a curse!   THANK YOU EVE!  Can you imagine the surprise and delight of many people… if at the point of death, they discover that all their “sins” are not forgiven, but all add up… and that all the good deeds also add up, and the judgment is merely a review of all the evidence for or against you.  And your heaven or hell is proportional to this?

 

I pondered for many years that if god made me… when (he) made me, he knew at that moment if I would go to heaven or go to hell (assuming that God is Omni powerful Omni present and Omniscient) as all Church doctrine states…

 

God knows EVERYTHING!  So what would really be the point of existence if God created a forgone conclusion? 

 

I you were God and you created perfect Sally and evil Timmy  and you know that Sally will end up in heaven and Timmy is going to end up in hell… how do you think their Judgment day will turn out?   You are God, already know all this…  So what is the point?  It’s not freewill if I give it to you… and then say if you do anything other than exactly what I say… I’ll rip your leg off and beat you to death with it…  That is not free will; such is defined as duress through fear.  The Bible is very good at using duress and fear to make people do what the authors pleasure. Please tithe 10% on your way past… Remember your leg and the beating thing… Have a great week Mrs. Jones, see you next Sunday. 

 

But what if the simple truth is that God has no idea how this enormous experiment will turn out?  God has no idea who will do what next???   Suddenly you realize that what you actually do becomes incredibly important!  What if your action really do speak louder than your words, and neither your words or action are forgiven.

 

Now some people will say that this is good, because it means the rich man will pay dearly in the afterlife for seemingly not helping the disadvantaged… BUT… What if God is displeased just as much by the poor and lazy man as the other way around?  What if we discovered that when God looks in our heart and sees that we knowingly have not done all we are capable of… that we have a obligation to take care of ourselves to the greatest possible extent, and that we are far more capable.  What if that is as much of a sin as the rich man trying to pass through the eye of a needle? 

 

Imagine the surprise of so many to learn that God is displeased by the lazy, which often results in poorness and apathy, just as much as God is offended by the arrogance of he rich?   That would be AWESOME!  

 

The spiritual journey forces one to confront some of these ideas.

 

Criticalthinker 385 pts

 ironcowboy The spiritual journey DOES force one to think in these ways-CRITICALLY. Love it!!! You write well BTW... I'm spiritual, just not religious. That stuff causes division...

Veron 1412 pts

 ironcowboy  Criticalthinker "It’s not freewill if I give it to you… and then say if you do anything other than exactly what I say… I’ll rip your leg off and beat you to death with it…  That is not free will; such is defined as duress through fear."

 

My numero uno problem with the major religions.  I simply can't understand how morality is can be honest if it's based in fear of punishment. 

tracyreneejones 4025 pts

A pagan, eh?! Great to have you here. I would consider myself the same, as I am awestruck by nature, see the reverence in the feminine form as strength and beauty and understand the wholeness of paganism. Strangely enough, I became interested upon reading about it in books found in my Catholic school library as a child @ironcowboy

ironcowboy 348 pts

tracyreneejonesironcowboy

To me the feminine and the masculine are the two great attributes of God… kind of like Yan and Yin… two sides, but one perfect god… 

 

In some ways God is like a house with a front door and a back door… a garage door and a patio door… Are you not in the house of God if you enter by the garage door?   Are you not in the house of God if you enter from the back door?  When you enter the house of your mother and your father, do they greet you with less warmest and love because of the passage way you chose to enter the house, or do they love you for seeking them out and coming home?

 

I kind of view all the established religions as having built a large wall around the house of God, and there is only one gate, their gate… Like Ronald Regan, I say to them; tear down this wall!

 

Do you think a guy could have imagined the inner beauty of femininity?  And on the flip side… do you think a woman could have imagined the utilitarian ruggedness of masculinity?  Yet strangely masculinity and femininity are a force inside the God force.  A pagan is free to enter the house of God by the female door or the male door…Or the transgendered door…  To us, the God and or Goddess are simply happy we sought them out have come home.

zipporah 1911 pts

WELL IMO, the more yin women become, the more yang men become, I met some 'yang' men and know some rather well....they arent much, and could be super passive/aggressive...thats just my opinion---there IS a yin/yang to men and women. If you notice, each side does have a little of the other, hence the DOT within the paisley

Criticalthinker 385 pts

 tracyreneejones  ironcowboy Hey guys, like the way you both think. When you get a chance in your life, read, "The Ringing Cedars of Russia" by Vladimir Megre. A Yogi from my classes brought it in my life. It is an easy read 8 book set. Powerful stuff and will blow your mind. Also, Message of a Master. I may come back with the author. It isn't in my fore-conscious at the moment and I do have to get on with my work as my  professor friend is waiting on my abstract-*sigh*...

 

Anyway, with such open and intelligent minds, I believe you both can handle it...

SirLoinDeBeef 2655 pts

 tracyreneejones  ironcowboy As a long-time reader of Science Fiction, I know that several authors have dealt with the God issue.

(1). An intriguing concept was that, after the worship of a 'local-Deity' by a certain number of humans occurred, there was enough of 'something' (psychic energy?), for that 'local Deity' to curve back in time and cause the miracles/pronouncements/'books' to be written, which would bring that Deity to life as God.

(2). Another thought process involved the possibility that a person could 'harness' the result of prayer, with the result that the sum-total of millions of worshipers, professing multiple prayers per day,  would yield God-like powers to be invested in one immortal human.

Human thought is amazing ... but then humans invented the pretzel and double-entry bookkeeping, too.

Browncow 1612 pts

 ironcowboy It's nice to see a Pagan on board. You bring a very interesting perspective. I personally am a Unitarian Christian. I grew up until I was ten in the Jehovah's Witnesses and they are Unitarian, but really into eternal damnation and only a certain "few" (meaning themselves) gaining access to paradise on earth or heaven.


 My parents left the church when we moved to the east coast. My mother and I would go to some New Age meetings and stuff with white light meditation, working with crystals and the like. It was fun, but I still considered myself Christian (though many would disagree with me).  When I became an adult I joined a non-Christian spiritual movement for about 13 years before finally leaving and looking at Christianity from a new standpoint.  I still kept my non-trinitarian view point, but couldn't think of a God who is all merciful and wonderful sending the children S/He loves so much to an eternal hell. It just didn't compute. There are no Unitarian Christian churches where I live (and the ones that are UC are located in New England and affiliated with the UUA).


 I take the Bible seriously, but not literally. I believe that it is inspired by God (who to me can be either male, female or both, we really don't know) but not written by God. Christianity in my opinion means following Jesus' example rather than believing a bunch of things about him and that by following Jesus as your spiritual guide and teacher who was empowered by God, you can be reunited in the spiritual world with God. I also believe that there are many paths to The One.


 I guess you would also call me a Progressive Christian as well. So no hellfire and damnation from me (I believe in punishment, but ultimate reconciliation with God). Critical thinking and reason pepper my view of the Almighty. I love that you're Pagan and we should probably have a *civil* discussion of our varying beliefs  so we can understand each other better. Sorry this is pretty off topic. I just don't get to meet many Pagans or Wiccans. It's exciting to me!

Criticalthinker 385 pts

 Browncow read the comments I left for Ironcowboy and Tracee...so same goes for you. Guess I found another like mind. Like what you said, I think similar, very similar...

ironcowboy 348 pts

Browncow

I have considered myself to be a witch for probably 15 years or so… at least practicing it directly. I’m not a Wiccan… all wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan.  The Wiccan’s lean quite heavily to only worshiping the feminine attributes of our creator, as they envisions her.

 

Do I cast spells?  Occasionally… in Christianity, casting a spell is called praying… it’s really that simple.  It’s just that I send my prayers off in the dark of night, and typically with a bit more fire then what you may see on a church altar, and with very few or no observers.  Few people know that what we worship is so closely related to the Christians… actually it’s the other way around completely! 

 

We believe that no one comes to god except by first knowing the sun. The sun is, in fact, the savior of the world; for without the sun, the world would experience eternal darkness.  We hold reverent the sun of God, in fact many worship the sun of God as a God.  Did you know, the sun of god even dies on the cross every year.   There was a battle in the heavens (the summer solstice) and the sun of God comes down toward the earth, and descends into the depths (the Sun descends from the peak track in the summer sky to the depths of hell in the winter).   This occurs on 20 to 22 Dec each year.  After three days, the sun of God raises again from the dead, and ascends into the heavens in resurrection and in glory.   The sun sits at the right hand of God in the heavens in the summer…  These are all astrological events. 

 

In the late winter, the sun descends lower and lower each day until it reaches the lowest point on the horizon it will go.  In many parts of the world near the equator (the birth place of Christianity) at night the Southern Cross star formation can be seen in the night sky at the same point the sun hangs in the day time sky.  Three is a three day window of time where the sun appears dead in the sky, not sinking and not rising…  This is why it is said that the sun was cast out of heaven and into hell, where it died and hung on the cross for three days.  The sun defeats the darkness and ascends into the sky once again, after the third day of death… fulfilling the prophesy.  The sun begins its natural climb back to God in heaven, where the two are rejoined on the summer solstice.

 

Many Pagan Witches believe quite firmly in the concept that evolution is the plan of God.  Many be believe that evolution and creationism are perfect matches for a God force that created the universes, and all the worlds as an experiment, and they have no idea what will become of it.  Within this ideology, swirling is a natural and perfect concept; it is the process of continuous human evolution in action, and we believe that the gods and goddess look down favorably on it…  The races of Africa evolved within that climactic conditions hot and sunny, and the races in the North evolved in the cold frozen world, cold, white and snow… our very features are simple conformation of this natural evolution.

 

We have progressed as peoples and races, and the world and humanity have changed; yet our seed is still interchangeable. I like many pagans, believe that swirling is simply the cutting edge of evolution of a smaller and more interconnected world.  There is no sin in this; we believe that swirling is a thing of natural and evolutionary beauty.   

Browncow 1612 pts

 ironcowboy Fascinating! Thank you for explaining some of your theology to all of us here. There are some very distinct parallels between your Pagan faith and Christianity. It's always nice to be able to see the common ground we can stand on. I'm looking forward to a more in depth conversation. So long as we all remain civil and respectful of our varying spiritual (and non-spiritual) paths.

ironcowboy 348 pts

Browncow

That is one reason I love Paganism… do as you will, but harm none.  However, we are permitted to defend ourselves.   

tracyreneejones 4025 pts

 ironcowboy  Browncow I considered myself a witch when I was a child, it seemed to fit. And now with the information I have regarding my birth family, being a witch, or Wicca-esque seems right-er than any theist religion I've come across. Extra dope...

AshleyFisher 397 pts

 ironcowboy Sometimes I'm torn between being an Atheist and a pagan but never once in my life have I ever enjoyed being part of the Abrahamic religions. If someone wants to do that fine. But don't bloody cherry pick passages from the bible/torah/koran and try to shove it down my throat. Because their will be massive butthurt involved.

Toni_M 20075 pts moderator

That woman looks darn happy in that picture to abominating. 

 

Another thing people don't consider is the fact that this is addressing a SPECIFIC people, which doesn't include many of the people today who feel bound by this belief system.

 

ironcowboy 348 pts

Toni_M

The greatest feeling of liberation I ever felt in my life was the moment I set the Bible down and said I can’t do this anymore…  If God made me, then (he) must love me with all the faults (he) put in me… I’ll follow God anywhere, and love with my whole heart, but not through this book!  This book was an obstacle to me.  I set the Bible down on a cold night in Jan of 1997… and all the religious stresses that were built up inside me dissipated…  Since that night, I’ve discovered a peace that I never knew before, and my Gods and Goddesses have blessed me openly…  But to each his or her own…

 

I would venture to say that religiously speaking… if it does not feel quite right, it is not.

Browncow 1612 pts

 Toni_M You're right on that one. Girlfriend looks pretty dag on happy in the picture. I have to add on to what you said about this being about a specific belief system. If you're Christian, you may want to consider that the verses were taken out of the Old Testament which is the old law. After the resurrection of Christ, wouldn't all the old laws NOT apply? Just a thought.

DWB 8812 pts

 Browncow  Toni_M You are largely correct; Much of the OT should kinda be considered something like the constitution of the ancient nation of Israel. It's more complicated than that, of course, but not much.

LorMarie 1361 pts

 Browncow  Toni_M

 I think that Christians should think thrice before adopting OT principles. 

AshleyFisher 397 pts

 Browncow  Toni_M Jesus fully supported everything in the Old Testament:“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)Which mean you kill people for: Blasphemy, Ceating, Dishonoring parents, Working on the holy day, women not being virigins, dudes just sleeping together (blow jobs and reach arounds are ok though). Also, slavery is okay, women have to shut up and be submissive...shall I go on with all the craziness in this book?? It should be apparent at this point just how morally bankrupt this book is.... just saying..

tracyreneejones 4025 pts

Well, I try to be an abomination as often as possible. It helps the aggy crowd stay inspired because without hatred theyd be on unemployment taking my tax paying dollars.