Black Women, White Women, and Intersectionality: Part One of A Response Post

Black Women, White Women, and Intersectionality: Part One of A Response Post

Toni drops the knowledge…again!

Author : Toni

Author's Website | Articles from

This is more or less a response post to the article about the complex relationships between white women and black women.

I saw that a lot of people dismissed EVERYTHING in the article because it didn’t apply to them individually. That’s cool. Black women are not, and never will be, a monolith. For example, no matter how many times it’s made clear that this is a site largely aimed at black women who are open to interracial relationships or already in them, you get people who remained confused either by choice or because they missed both the first AND second memos. There remains this idea that at the core of every black woman is someone who is pining for that good black man and resentful of every other woman that stands between her and that dream. But we know that’s simply not true. We are individuals, and however we interact with other people will be as individuals.

 

Now, there were some points in the article I agreed with:

 

- The Westernized feminist movement as a whole has never placed an equal emphasis on all women, and this really does create strife on that front.

- Some black women have a strong dislike of white women for various reasons, including their “pedestal position”, which relates almost directly back to the “bottom-of-the-totem pole” concept.

- Some white women are racist and or have a misguided sense of self-worth based on white privilege. Even if you have not experienced this personally, that does not invalidate the experiences of women who have. It only becomes a problem when black women become so fixated on those racial slights that they use that as an indicator for how they treat or will be treated by others in the future (more on that later).

 

So for my part, I can’t say that it was a total bust, but that’s just me. If someone is there making an observation, I’m right there compiling data and analyzing it to pieces. And I personally didn’t see anything in the writing that made me angry or upset. If something doesn’t apply to me, I am not going to make myself feel I am being targeted. Because there’s no point, really. You’re only one person, and you are free to agree or disagree with someone else’s observations and or experiences.

 

I will say that there was one aspect of the article that made me think: Based on what the author had to say about observations made of some black women, observations that are not entirely unwarranted or inaccurate, I do feel that there is a case for informing affected black women that they need to prioritize themselves in their entirety. To become a whole person, who lives their own life rather than looking to other people to confirm their beauty or give them permission to not be beneath someone else’s feet. If you’re waiting passively for one group of women to inform you that you need not feel less than they are, you missed the point of empowerment. You also are missing out on enjoying yourself and other people as just people. But one major concern I have is not only that black women are waiting for permission in some way to be as good as others….they are also bringing this baggage with them into the IRR sphere and thinking that merely dating out is enough to heal their lowered sense of self-worth.

 

Just like showing up in church once a week doesn’t automatically make you a good Christian, being a part of IRR spaces does not necessarily eliminate cognitive dissonance: Some black women are bound by GAT-DL or black male-identified ways of thinking that cripple their ability to successfully interact with other people not bound by those concepts. The race or ethnicity of the people you date or interact with cannot get rid of this problem because it’s strictly internal.

 

The reality is that certain black women suffer from an inability to separate racial politics from every aspect of their life and not make that the entire focus of how they approach other people or assume others are dealing with them. Does this mean you have to stop being concerned with racism and discrimination? No. But it also doesn’t mean you have to assume everyone else is looking at you and seeing your race/skin color. Or that they place as great an emphasis on it as you do. The most important people in your life should be about more than that. And if you’re going to place undue emphasis on being looked down on by strangers, then you are putting unnecessary stress on your being.

 

There is an important reason to avoid behaving in this manner: Putting heavy emphasis on one aspect of yourself at the expense of every other aspect of yourself is likely going to cause you to miss social cues and suffer from a great deal of cognitive dissonance. Do I think white women can have this issue as well? Absolutely, since we’ve spoken of white women being “shocked” or “resentful” of being passed over regardless of their possessing white privilege. However, all this means is that the women in question, black and white, have a skewed vision of themselves and the world, and therefore are inevitably going to be thrown sideways by people who are seeing things from alternate points-of-view.

 

For example, you have black women who see competing with white women in the love an relationship arena as a racial thing more so than as merely a fact of nature. Some white women and black women are both guilty of playing into racial politics and assuming that white men will respond in the same way. What they forget is that race is something that is a non-issue for white men. They enjoy both racial and male privilege, remember? So while these women are reading things one way, a guy can look at things from a different angle and see Woman #1 as hotter than Woman #2 for reasons that never figured into the thinking of either party. Women like this often think that men are beholden to the “hierarchal rules” they imagine for themselves and other women. They often forget that, no, they aren’t. And all that time spent obeying “rules” could have been spent self-reflecting and broadening their horizons.

 

Whether it’s your skin color, ethnicity, or whatever form of privilege you wield–making assumptions about yourself, emphasizing that one area of your being can negatively impact you in terms of how you view the world and how you understand others around you. You automatically trust or distrust, co-opt or allow yourself to be allied with someone for reasons associated with that one viewpoint. And with logic that can be fallible due to being unable to see past that limited viewpoint. There are so many different ways to be an individual and to appreciate how you connect to other people, and you’re only hurting yourself when you fail to acknowledge this about yourself and others.

 

We have women here who are black, vocally Republican, married, and proudly “old-fashioned”. Others who are multi-racial, liberal, unmarried, and progressive in all areas of their lives. How fair would it be for these women, for any woman really, to limit their understanding of themselves and each other to simply being “black” or “a woman” and then trying to focus their viewpoint of the world through one, or even both of those lenses? Because there are just too many parts of yourself that fall away when you do this. And just the same, you miss out on various aspects of other people, and all while weighing the complexity of that single viewpoint.

 

That’s not to say race isn’t complex. It’s stupid and often enabling stupidity breeds complexity, but I digress. Black women should realize that complexity comes not merely from race or gender, but a myriad of things that determine who you are and how you deal with conflict.

 

Coming up in part two: Black Women and Cognitive Dissonance

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FriendsofJay 1800 pts

". . . . bringing this baggage with them into the IRR sphere and thinking that merely dating out is enough to heal their lowered sense of self-worth." 

 

 

IR dating as therapeutic?  I'd never have thought of that.  But it would almost have to be from a woman's POV because men don't usually think of dating as a healing process.  If the man in the relationship knew he was being used as medicine, wouldn't he be a bit offended?  Especially if he started to really like the girl? 

 

 

" . . . .all this means is that the women in question, black and white, have a skewed vision of themselves and the world, and therefore are inevitably going to be thrown sideways by people who are seeing things from alternate points-of-view."  

 

 

This is the one thing I tried to make my students understand.  Its a difficult concept:  people see the same incident from entirely different POVs.  Everything they see is colored by a lifetime of their experiences.  All their hurts, joys, sadness and anger they've experienced put a different perspective on how they interpret a situation.  Every human has this flaw in their nature.   I hate to say it but women especially are prone to misunderstanding.    Women, more so than men then to "think too hard" and over intellectualize what has happened in a situation.   A close friend of mine---a woman---said that when an incident happens, a man will usually think of one interpretation or solution, while a woman will see several possible scenarios, then pick the one that comes closest to the experiences in her life.   It's been said that even people who are trained observers can misinterpret a situation.   An excellent film that shows this dichotomy is the 2009 Meryl Streep--Philip Seymour Hoffman film DOUBT.  I recommend it as a primer in observation training.

Mayanew 192 pts

 FriendsofJay

IR dating as therapeutic?  I'd never have thought of that.  But it would almost have to be from a woman's POV because men don't usually think of dating as a healing process.  If the man in the relationship knew he was being used as medicine, wouldn't he be a bit offended?  Especially if he started to really like the girl?

 

A LOT of black men date/marry white women for healing and to feel better about themselves.  A LOT of fat, white, women date black men because they dont feel good around themselves around white men cause white men are critical about weight.  A LOT of people date people of another race and it does healing  effect for black men most of all.. I have had a black man tell me that he likes for white men to see him walking around with white girls because of all the things that black men have done to white men. 

 

As far as my own personal experience, I dont feel like less around any woman black or white.  My looks are considered attractive in a black or white setting.  Although I am in a relationship now, I think that black women not limiting themselves will make things better for ALL of us. 

 

Read this article writen by a white woman

 

http://www.divorcesaloon.com/2010/10/29/statistics-show-that-black-menwhite-women-have-a-higher-divorce-rate-than-white-menblack-women-why-is-that/

 
Brenda55 19272 pts moderator

 FriendsofJay "IR dating as therapeutic?  I'd never have thought of that.  But it would almost have to be from a woman's POV because men don't usually think of dating as a healing process.  If the man in the relationship knew he was being used as medicine, wouldn't he be a bit offended?  Especially if he started to really like the girl?"

 

You are a man of integrity Jay.  I can just picture a guy using this mindset to admin..."sexual healing".  "Baby I have got just the thing to make you feel mo' better."  LOL


As for the rest of your post.  I will say I am guilty as changed on that one. I do think that women tend to over think things....or....is it that men under think them and then are left looking shocked saying "Waaaaaddd I do...wad I say?" when the woman goes off? Hummmmmm.  The age old question.

Pearl Rose 1182 pts

I tend to gloss over and scroll down and just block out things that I don't relate to or concern me. THAT is self-centered. Then in the comment section I talk about ME, and not the actual subject. I have NO idea why I do that, it's nice to laugh about it though, I'm glad I notice. I just really couldn't relate to the post before this one. I can just easily slide out into the world without really knowing these things and just live by independent mind and not really pick a side.

 

I don't know how feminism really affects me and my life (although some black women do) and I really don't understand their logic and the things that they do (slut-walking, burning bras... not shaving 70's era), so white feminists and feminists period really don't intrigue me. White girl privilege is something that I probably subconsciously knew about. Seeing them most on television, in magazines and stuff. But I never felt less than anyone and never associated a totem pole with people having to do with it. I was on my own trying to figure myself out. In elementary school I hung out with everybody.. and bullied err.. everybody. LOL

 

Some white women are racist, thank goodness I have never been around such women. But all of them aren't in fact MOST of them are not racist, they may be a little prejudiced or ignorant but not flat out racist like that. If you gonna hate, hate the person, not the persons color or culture. 

 

When I came to this site I started to learn about it.. it's nice to know, but that doesn't mean I'll go out hating WW or even trying to prove myself to them. For what? They are people too they have flaws and cheese, I notice when I go out I get treated with the same respect as anybody else and that's all that matters to me. 

 

"For example, you have black women who see competing with white women in the love an relationship arena as a racial thing more so than as merely a fact of nature."

 

This is sooo true! I tend to think human nature before social construct nature, BOTH matter but sometimes its more of one than the other and it's usually human nature. When I'm competing with another woman to get the best guy, I'm not thinking of her skin color, I'm thinking of how I can expose all her flaws and make her ugly to the man I want and that I WILL get. :-D

 

I think a lot of people, myself included get caught up in their own individualism and don't really count or try to hear out other peoples experiences and opinions. 

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

I forget to say I love the post also can't wait for the other part.


 Your comment about wm is true, we do forget wm enjoy white and male privilege and as such mostly see the world as being totally open to them even in the aspect of mating. I've lived here in PNW for 20 years, I'm 40 now and some of my perspective may come from age, the other to just being exposed to a lot of different ppl all mylife. That's one of the reasons I started dating IR although the person was different in racial make up, I didn't see the other differences and I wasn't making any up in my mind. 


Yes, I've had run ins w/ WW trying to exercise their entitlement issues w/ me had one earlier this summer, did a vlog about it but b b/c some bw aren't moaning and groaning about all day long don't mean we haven't had the experience. I'm 40 yrs old from Houston, Texas if you think I haven't run into some ppl exercising privilege, you're mistaken. But b/c that happened doesn't mean I didn't have other good experiences w/ white ppl or WW. I take everyone on individual basis, that's just how I operate and it has served me well.


 I live in one of the whitest cities in America, so that means ww are everywhere but I don't want to spend my time worrying about them, white men either for that matter or most ppl. I've had wm choose me over ww, then had ww talk behind my back about it. But what did that change? Did he give me up, did he run and go apologize to the ww, ummm no. And what would have happened if I had been shaken by what those women said, by wanting to be accepted and acknowledged by them? He probably would have left me alone and thought I was crazy. I wasn't worried about strange ww, I wanted to get to know the guy, I did, if they didn't like that, that was their issue not mine. I'm beholden to no one but me. If I moaned and groaned about ww & how they side eye me, which I'm sure they may do to my husband, what would he think. He's my focus. 


Maybe @DUsher is right maybe some ppl need some more exposure to break down some of these things. Maybe some folks are just young & this kind of stuff matters to young ppl. Which I don't get, I had lots of angst in my 20s this was not it. But when I have bw talk to me about coming out to the west coast, I always warn them you can't being your issues about being a bw out here. Personally I have no issues about being a bw, b/c if you want date IR many of the guys on this coast date across the board. They date all kinds of women, if they date IR. Out of all the wm I dated on this coast, only my hubby and one boyfriend from my 20s had dated bw previously. My ex husband had never dared a bw. But these men want good looking, nice, reasonably smart women, who want them all the girl fight/mean girl stuff between women means nothing to them. If you think you'll be picked last, chances are you probably will but that will probably have more to do w/ you than the guy.

DU2 2144 pts

 Toni_M  Said    "Some black women are bound by GAT-DL or black male-identified ways of thinking that cripple their ability to successfully interact with other people not bound by those concepts."


This is where a fine line is. On the side of the GAT-DL this is true they poison the well and will hold a bw back if she drinks the  koo-aid. But on the  the side of those who do not have such experiences many times are innocently dismissive of sting of those whose life experiences do embody those things until it hits close to home.


 Karyn Folan author of the book "Don't bring a white boy home: and other notions that keep black women from dating out, Shared in her book that her husband who is white became more sensitive to racist issues and became very annoyed at racist jokes and comments being spoken on his job after he married Karyn and had his daughter with her. It was something that just went in one ear and out the other up until then. he was not insensitive it just was not his personal experience at that time. 


 I think it was Earth jeff who shared on a post about sitting in a car with a black female colleague talking when a police officer walked up to their car asking for their id  "explaining" that they were making sure the woman was not a hooker. He said that  experience  really opened his eyes  and made him more aware racist behavior. I think many whites once they are aware express compassion and seek to connect, but as Toni said the GAT-DL poison the minds of bw and so  when some white do reach out to connect they are judged along with every other white person sadly and an opportunity is lost.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

I've been in Portland, Oregon this past weekend enjoying my 1st anniversary. I was one of the folks that responded to the previous article, still don't get the previous article. But I'll be interviewing someone who is enjoying the PNW and not having issues thinking she's bottom of anything and reaping the rewards off that. I also don't have those issues and yes seeing myself as a whole complex dynamic person has helped me and made me happy.


 My husband and I are sitting at a great bar in Portland, love these town, go into the bathroom but as usual there's a line. There's a white young woman standing washing her hands that compliments my dress and then her friends frees up a space, she likes it too. Now listening to some stuff from bw they would have been suspicious of that compliment b/c well WW don't really like us, we're bottom of the barrel. Thank goodness I'm a whole person and took it as a compliment and thanked her. So I don't look like a weirdo. Hey they're just ppl so am I, they were there as two friends hanging out, I was there w/ my husband. I was the only bw in that bar, maybe the only one in the neighborhood. That's just how the PNW and if you're geeking about WW in any way this place would freak you out. But b/c I'm at the point I am a whole person, not just a bw, not just a wife, not just a believer, not just one thing. I don't have get to hand-wringing when I see WW or any woman for that matter. I can let you do you as I do me. I had the best weekend in Portland, can't wait to get back.

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 eugeniaberg  Aww, that's great. :D Glad you guys are enjoying your anniversary.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Toni_M Thank you, we did.

onmywayup 1727 pts

 eugeniaberg "Now listening to some stuff from bw they would have been suspicious of that compliment b/c well WW don't really like us, we're bottom of the barrel."

 

I do know some people who would have reacted that way.  I have acquaintances who keep having conversations about how non-black men weren't attracted to them, and then expect me to join in. I always get weird looks when I don't join in.  Sorry if I have had non-black men show interest! They do too, but probably don't notice.

onmywayup 1727 pts

 eugeniaberg Anyway, but these same people sometimes get offended when white women compliment their looks...they think they're being condescending or something.  I can understand that sometimes women do put other women down for the sake of competition or whatever, but I've never really noticed white women trying to be fake with me (except for high school, when the popular mean girls of all races were trying to make everyone else feel bad, lol!).

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@onthewaydown I know condescending when I hear it, if anyone can spot patronizing I can. But on that night it didn't matter, I was having the best time w/ my husband sitting in cool bar, watching ppl go by and all the nightlife in a great neighborhood, driniking an awesome beer called Purple Haze made w/ boysenberries. Them broads could have said anything and I wouldn't have cared LOL. but they were nice and it's always nice when ppl are nice to you. I'm not in a day and night competition w/ ww so I have no need for an antagonistic nature. That's for ppl who sit around waiting to be offended, I'm not one.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@onthewaydown I feel sorry for women like that, they have tunnel-vision. That's too bad, oh well!

iHeartLove 804 pts

"To become a whole person, who lives their own life rather than looking to other people to confirm their beauty or give them permission to not be beneath someone else’s feet."

 

That's being empowered. Great post!

Islandgirl 505 pts

I'm not sure how relevant my post is going to be but here goes. I wonder if some of the strife and distrust stems from the fact that some BW and WW are operating at and with different rules of engagement. Could it be that some BW are used to open hostilities and fail to note till too late subtle sabotage. When it boils down to it women are extremely competitive and some women just don't like other women. 

DU2 2144 pts

 Islandgirl Yes this is also true

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eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Guest @Islandgirl I deleted your other post b/c it was not of any use and I'm going to give you a warning, I only give one.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

And don't do it here this is someone else post, they need you and me taking up space.

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 eugeniaberg  From the tone of the comments, I suspect "Guest" is someone who comments regularly on this blog, but rather than comment under their own name, opted to comment anonymously. Even trolls will make up a name before commenting. :/

 

In any case, thanks for looking out!

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Toni_M Well there was another post some way down which was for sure trolling that one I just deleted. They're just getting slicker and slicker. No problem, I'm up late and we all know they love to operate late at night.

WIF 26 pts

Yesterday my (black, female) friend and I ( we both live in the same middle-class neighbourhood) checked out a Cafe that neither of us had been to before. My friend was nicely dressed, as she had just come from a blind date, and I, well, I looked like a slob, but we still did not deserve the reception we got from this white woman ( who looked like she was younger than us) customer whom, when seeing us enter, grabbed her wallet and keys that were on the counter, dramatically clutched them to her chest and her eyes just went wide as she stared at us. She was really afraid of us. 

 

Now, this was in a very multicultural part of town in an extremely diverse city. I made eye contact with 'Missy Anne' and slowly shook my head, so she knew that we had seen what she had done. She scurried out.  I was livid that this women acted though we were about to rob the place - or maybe just her.

 

My mother is white. So is my beloved little sister, the majority of my family members and a few dear friends and colleagues. But in that instant, I was pissed. But this has happened before and for some reason, I almost expect racist behaviour from white men, but when a white woman pulls some shit, it really stings. They should - or so I keep on thinking - know better. But they can be as buck-ass ignorant as anyone else, and worse.

 

I do not believe that we should paint all people with one brush. But in times like that, when this woman decided to do that to us I wanted to call her some nasty names and I did mutter some stuff to my friend that in hindsight, wasn't right. I think that the faux-vicitimization is an act, and I know that it works like a charm. It is really hard in these circumstances not to paint all white women with a negative brush, as if they can pull that shit, I want to be as stupid as they can. But no, we are ALWAYS expected to be the bigger person. Sometimes it sucks. 

onmywayup 1727 pts

 WIF I'm sorry hat happened to you.  Ugh, it's just so annoying.

iHeartLove 804 pts

 WIF I'm sorry you had to experience that. In those situations I either ignore it or make fun of it. Sometimes I play mind games with people like that and clutch my purse and walk hurriedly away for them with feigned horror.

Mayanew 192 pts

 WIF

 I get treated badly often by white waitresses and this is something that I am seeing just in the last couple of years.  I often act like I dont know what is going on and I choose my battles.  I went out to dinner with a former black male coworker and we were in a liberal, multicultural part of town (like yourself).  We were really nice to the waitress and she was just horrible.  I said to my friend when we got outside that the waitress made me feel so funny that I just wanted to get out of there.  Now normally, men dont notice stuff like that and a lot of times black men will defend white women.  But he replied "yeah, that was a really uncomfortable situation".  So when I got home I called the restaurant.  I never mentioned race and I explained that even my friend noticed it and he is a really sweet, laid back guy.  Anyway the manager talked to me for a long time and she called me back and told me that the waitress broke down and cried and she apologized.  I choose my battles but I had to call the restaurant when I got back home.

 

I dont expect white women to not be as racist as white men.  They are the more silent racist.  It is just that men are more violent with it.

 

DU2 2144 pts

 Mayanew  WIF I always say we have to approach these topics as sleeping with one eye open like the cowboys do. While we don't want to connect every "tic" in a non black person's  response to a black person as racism , people have bias against people for a number of reasons besides race.


 Perhaps some black women cannot "get past" the poor behavior of some whites because it happens so often re-enforcing certain mindsets. If a woman gets raped every night at 7 pm by the same guy for months, it is pretty hard to tell her to "get past it" or not to let it "get to her" if it keeps happening on a routine basis.  her healing can only come when the circumstances that re-enforce that negative behavior change. Meaning she may have to change her envrioment, TRAVEL is a good way to do that. 


My friend Fleace Weaver owner of Black Girl Travel.com encourages black women to travel outside the US to see that alot of what they experience  in the US is not the attitude of people globaly (though there are racists  all over,  Fleace explained a good chunk of that is based on what they see on American Television) The result for many of these women is alot of healing, especially in Italy where the women get so much love and attention from the men they feel overwhelmed after being ignored or mistreated for so long in the states.

Mayanew 192 pts

 DUsher

I have been doing the traveling thing long before Fleece and Black Girls Travel started traveling to Europe.  I have been to Europe several times.  Yes the men flirt with you.  Yes some of the women are nicer but there is also racism in Europe.  I experienced a little of it.  Furthermore I talked to the Africans over there and racism does exist over there.  I met an african female doctor in Paris whose patients did not even want her to touch them.  Yes we are a novelty in Europe but dont get it twisted.

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 Mayanew  DUsher I don't think the point is that there's no racism abroad, the point is that the racial politics specific to American culture are not practiced abroad. Different countries have their own racial and ethnic policies. Some may impact you. Others may not. You shouldn't go out into the world expecting everyone else's story and experiences to be your own.

 

I don't think that acknowledging wonderful experiences abroad automatically invalidates people who went to another country and was treated terribly. The reverse is just as true: Too many black people have this habit of trying to hijack the experiences of other people in order to validate their own world view. You'll learn nothing if you do that, because you're too busy telling everyone else's stories to tell your own.

 

The world is a big scary place full of backwards people, but we all already know this. The world is also CHANGING and there are younger people with different mentalities and stories than people who are older with different experiences and thoughts based off of those experiences.

 

Everyone's different, everyone's experience is different. There doesn't need to be a contest over who is more right and who is more wrong about how other people are. You'll often find you can be just as correct as you are incorrect on the matter, so it's nothing to get twisted about at all.

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 DUsher I agree, it's important to travel and or get to know people from all over. Make new friends and learn a bit about different cultures and realize there's more to life than one very narrow point of view. Not everything revolves around white racism, especially Americanized-white racism and you don't have to revolve around it either.

 

Change your settings, change your circle of influence and friends, change your life and be freer and more open. :)

 

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Toni_M @Mayanew @DUsher Exactly, some ppl could just move to another city in the U.S. and get a healing from some of the issues they hold. I've visited Europe too and loved it. I wasn't thinking about the racial thing just love to travel so it was nice but, of course it was different than the U.S. and although I'd love to go live there for awhile just to see how it is to live. I know b/c of its history it has a different outlook on blk ppl. You can move up here where I am and get a different outlook on blk ppl. Yes, racism exists everywhere but why come at new experiences from that perspective. Why look for the racist boogeyman wherever you go b/c in all likelihood you will find him. I'm going to tell a story, my best friend moved up here when my family moved here and her mom still lives in Texas. We've been here in Seattle 20 yrs. Her mom comes to visits we take a girls trip about 8 of us, before returning from the Washington coast we head to Portland while there I take my phone and look up a place to eat. We show up, it's BBQ joint but they've been Guy Fieri's Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives so they are crowded only taking reservations. I didn't know so didn't make one, but the lady says she can seat us outside. Mind you there are 8 of us w/ no reservations at a crowded restaurant. I figure we're lucky we got a table even outside. It was April so it was chilly its cold in the Spring here. My bff's mom is moaning b/c she thinks it's racism. My BFF and I both go umm no, we came to a restaurant that took reservations, we had none we're lucky we're sitting down. Also this is Portland, this town just doesn't operate like that. I go to there all the time, know the vibe, love the vibe, thinking about moving. But she insisted it was racism then she started explaining why b/c the white chuck that was waitress was saying blah, blah, blah, whatever. My BFF and I were just sitting there laughing b/c that is typical of what some blk ppl will say from Texas. She asked us didn't we want to know if someone was racist, wouldn't we want to not be undercover and we both said in unison, No! Why would I ever want to know if someone is racist, if they're not dining anything to me? How is that information going to help me? Personally, I don't want to uncomfortable, let them be uncomfortable. It was the oddest conversation and she couldn't understand our kind of nonchalance, she wanted justice done I think. However that was supposed to happen. But since we've lived here so long our perspective on race has changed, it's not out main focus. It's not like we don't think racism doesn't exist, but I also don't have time to brood over perceived slights.

DU2 2144 pts

 Mayanew Toni_M  Mayanew, first what is with the female version of manhood measuring? Fleace was an international model and has been traveling around the world for at least 30 years from what she told me, second your traveling experience does not speak for every black woman on this planet. Third I really wish people would READ thoroughly before they respond to someones comment, I said in my response that racism exists all over the world, I said that  women traveling abroad  would expose them to different experiences and demonstrate that American racism does not reign supreme all over the world and they can find more open minded people than they do in the US. Josephine Baker be came an expat and was able to live a better life on her own terms in the midst of Jim Crow raging in the US at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly every ones experiences are different and I think Toni said it best, "I don't think the point is that there's no racism abroad, the point is that the racial politics specific to American culture are not practiced abroad. Different countries have their own racial and ethnic policies. Some may impact you. Others may not. You shouldn't go out into the world expecting everyone else's story and experiences to be your own."I am sure there are black female doctors in France that may have not been treated as the doctor you mentioned.

DU2 2144 pts

 Toni_M  Mayanew   Toni you said ": Too many black people have this habit of trying to hijack the experiences of other people in order to validate their own world view. You'll learn nothing if you do that, because you're too busy telling everyone else's stories to tell your own."

 

 

 

 

 

Applause!!!

Pearl Rose 1182 pts

 WIF That's disgusting. I just now remember something like that happened to me, my mom and sister. We were leaving the doctors office and the elevator opened and this old bat clutched her bag and decided to take the stairs. We noticed it but me being me, I was able to make an awkward situation into something hilarious and I thought. "This racist ass old lady would rather break her back walking up flights of stairs instead of walking past us to get on the elevator, I hope she trips and falls." I tend not to remember things like that for some reason, but they always happen near or in elevators. 

Rosethorn 102 pts

 WIFWhy "for some reason, I almost expect racist behaviour from White men, but when a White woman pulls that shit it really stings."? What's the "reason". Because your Mom and little sister are White? And are good "PEOPLE"? Or because you really believe that it's just White men? This is an issue that I have about Racism and White women. There really is a misinformed belief that WW are better than their men. I personally can tell you horrific stories of WW exercising straight up EVIL Racism! You know that this idea is a very solid tool used to keep BW  from dating WM. It's also why BW hesitate to criticize WW. 

 
WIF 26 pts

 Rosethorn  Notice the "I" in my post? That how I feel, I'm not saying that others feel the same way. I date interracially. I can also tell you about some horrific stories about white women's racist ways. I was trying to convey the mixed feelings I have with wanting to throw a whole population under a bus when things like this happen, versus remembering that everyone is an individual with individual traits. It's not easy when this is a continued experience. 

Rosethorn 102 pts

 WIF

 I know. i understand. i was just stating something that subliminal. BM/WW relationships are highly romanticised, with both seen as victims. While BW/WM-both-are seen as emasculating.

These conversations are important as we insist on being on the same level as WW and calling out their shit-especially towards us. It's unveiling. An experience is given attention and healing when it is unveiled.

DeepWater 2438 pts

If I recall correctly WEB Dubois called this the "dual mask".    When I'm amongst certain Black folk I be myself with certain Black folk.     When amongst white folk, its best to "shut that off" and show the best self at all times ONLY. White women, particularly in the corporate environment, are cunning and can be ruthless so much so that you'll be wondering what happened to you when you didn't "go along to get along" while on the unemployment line. Corporate life involves heavy politicking, also whom you know, deal and play with, and should you not know how to go about this you'll be the one on the business end of a very dirty stick.    Not only have I learned and lived through it but have seen it in action.   Are all white women racist?  I'd say no.    One of my best advocates in corporate life was a southern white woman whom, IMO, was one of the best bosses/superiors I've ever had in corporate life.   She felt me as a serious woman, a woman that takes care of business, and would soon thus become a mentor prior to her retirement.     She felt when I interviewed and worked there (over 5 years) that I took the position seriously and not as somewhere to "hang" where they gon' just pay me for just the bare minimum of work output.

 

I have seen, no lie though, white women come in late for having stopped for coffee while hangin' with friends, chasing after a man during lunch and showing back up to work 2, 3, and 4 hours later with nothing said from the "higher ups".    Let my Black ass have to come in late just one morning for something serious such as car actually breaking down and having to go through the Spanish Inquisition for said failure and having it lorded over you until proven otherwise.    I have seen white women stay on the phone for hours at a time with not a soul saying anything but let me (or someone like me) do that for more than 5 minutes over and deemed as not doing said job and having it gone up the vine to superiors and then having to explain that a life incident has happened and arrangements are to be made for such and having it poo-pooed as being "typical ghetto behavior" and then having to explain this to said superiors without so much as a question as to the white girl in the next cubicle talking about when and where she's gonna **** the next dude when she gets to the bar after work.     

 

Don't tell me what white women won't do, they can get away with it.    Black women cannot.    Black women in corporate life MUST BE ABOVE REPROACH or you'll on the business end of that very dirty stick (at some point during ones' career).

 

 

 

Mayanew 192 pts

The reality is that certain black women suffer from an inability to separate racial politics from every aspect of their life and not make that the entire focus of how they approach other people or assume others are dealing with them.

 

That is something that is definitely worth evaluating.

Mayanew 192 pts

Good peice and I will say that I am not nor any female that I know is waiting for white women to tell them that they are not inferior to them.  They never felt inferior.   I think that that is a certain segment of black women.  A segment that I am unfamiliar with. 

 

I think that women who tend to feel that way grew up in white communities.  They grew up in an environment where whiteness in a woman is really put on a pedastal.  I think and I hope that I dont get attacked for this, but it seems that people who grow up in the islands, africa or predominantly black areas dont look at white women that way as much and can accept that they are just as ---if not more fly....

 

I remember years ago a situation when I was working with two young black girls.  One was from the inner city and the other girl was from the suburbs.  This was a corporate environment and these girls were work study students.   There were racist older white women working in the office and I noticed that the suburban girl cared about what they thought about her.  She told them her personal business, gossiped with them,etc.  She really thought that they liked her much more than they actually did.  The girl from the "hood" was nice, did her work, was professional and kept her distance from the white women.  She did not care about what these women thought of her. 

 

I took them out to lunch one day and the suburban girl constantly talked about not liking her butt and hips whereas that was not a problem with the city girl.   The city girl was more confident about her body and her blackness it seemed.  Then the suburban girl ended up not even staying until the end of the program because she had a run-in with one of the ladies and was hurt because she found out that something that she told one of the older white woman had gotten around the office.  She was so upset that I told her to go home and I gave her the last day off.  The one thing that I remember the city girl saying to me was that the other girl was SO worried about making friends with these white women and they did not even really care about her.  I did not respond to her but in the back of my mind......

 

By the way both were really smart girls who are doing well now...

 

And before anyone states that not all white women are the same.  I know this but I am still cautious.   I find that they are intrigued by you if you are attractive and standoffish then they are all up in your face.  I am also cautious with black women.

Mayanew 192 pts

I meant "she told one of the older white women"   Also, before anyone states that not all white women are the same, I know this

 

Just some corrections....lol

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 Mayanew Thanks for your feedback. :)

 

I can't say whether or not the white women in question were racists because I don't know the back story of office politics and goings on where you work, but one thing I did take away from your story was pretty much what I've been saying: You can't just expect people to associate with or be friends with you "because". Whether it's because you're both black, or both women, or both from the same social background.

 

It does sound as though from your example the black girl in question felt "closer" to the white women than she did the other black girl and was hurt by their rejection. I wouldn't go so far as to assume she was admiring them because they were white: She probably felt she had more in common with them socially. Maybe she wasn't caught up in "being black" and associating with certain attitudes and behaviors that are expected to reflect on ALL black women, but don't necessarily speak to her image.

 

I don't pity this person for trying to associate with someone who doesn't look like her: many black women self-segregate to the point where they remain stumped as to why white men aren't approaching them, despite being unwilling to go any place where they can't self-segregate and only associate with other black people. And they openly resent/pity any other black woman who doesn't automatically flock to their "black" corner.

 

I do think she learned a valuable lesson, one that goes beyond race and I hope young women will pay attention to it: It's never a good idea to air your personal business at the office. You can't trust everyone to respect your privacy. And some people love nothing more than to tell your business because they don't like you. You can't be friends with everyone, even in a professional environment. You vet friends and co-workers you do anyone else you intend to be around for an extended period of time and in time you learn what you can and can't share with these people. 

 

And never EVER make assumptions about people based on something as flimsy as skin color or race. Either be mindful of the character of that person or prepare for the knife that will eventually find its way to your back.

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 Mayanew * vet friends and co-workers you like do anyone else 

thecrazyartist 2210 pts

@Toni_M @Mayanew I am similar in the way that I am just cautious around women period(and men) regardless of race, sexual orientation, political stance. I am not, and have never been an open social person, and as a result I am not really a conversation starter, nor do I discloseany information that I consider too personal(like relationship status, I only share that in arenas and to people where I know it is safe). I have never been the girl who had several close girlfriends, and in all honesty I don't blame the city girl for keeping things strictly professional in the workplace. I find that women in general, regardless of race can be incredibly vile, petty, nasty and downright evil to each other if they feel threatened,and if that means using race or ethnicity to put a potential threat in her place then so be it. Be wary of co-workers, they want that promotion and so do you, and some people will stoop to all lows to get it.

Toni_M 18695 pts moderator

 thecrazyartist  Toni_M  Mayanew  I can attest to that last part. Some people are just cut-throat. I don't take it personally, but I don't put my neck out either. 

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Toni_M @Mayanew Trying to be friends w/ anyone at a job is a fatal mistake, I've always been friendly not friends there's a difference. Most ppl have no idea how set appropriate boundaries in most situations.

Pearl Rose 1182 pts

 Toni_M  Mayanew I have no idea what's wrong with women who put their personal business out their to get a job or be liked. That would make me so irritated. I don't like when people tell me their whole life story in less than 15 minutes of meeting me, it makes me uncomfortable.

Pearl Rose 1182 pts

 Mayanew Hmm. So maybe me growing up in the inner city gave me a bit more benefits than I think? I know I see somethings over here that I HATE. But I won't lie the girls/women over here are beautiful.. it's just the mindset and attitude that irritates me.. 

 

And yeah, I did develop *some* hood tendencies. I duck every time I hear gunshots and turn off all the lights when helicopters are roaming. LOL

ASwirlGirl 3023 pts

Ahh  . . . so much to love in this piece, but I especially love this: " . . . there is a case for informing affected black women that they need to prioritize themselves in their entirety. To become a whole person, who lives their own life rather than looking to other people to confirm their beauty or give them permission to not be beneath someone else’s feet. If you’re waiting passively for one group of women to inform you that you need not feel less than they are, you missed the point of empowerment. You also are missing out on enjoying yourself and other people as just people."

 

*Happy to be a whole person*

 

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@ASwirlGirl Isn't it nice to be whole. Wholeness makes you think in a different way. It makes me take ppl as individuals. We're all too complex as ppl to just shove in a box. That's one of the reasons I'm friends w/ ppl that I don't agree with on everything, b/c ppl are more than one thing. I'm more than one thing, why wouldn't I give everyone else the right to do the same.