Beyond Black & White http://www.beyondblackwhite.com Chronicles, Musings and Debates about Interracial & Intercultural Relationships Thu, 17 May 2018 04:22:34 +0000 en-US hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.5 “Ericatheoddity” Speaks:”Christelyn’s message will parch the very safety net that the black female apologists have cast “ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/ericatheoddity-speaks/ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/ericatheoddity-speaks/#comments Wed, 30 Sep 2015 06:01:23 +0000 http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/?p=38611 I’ve been having my eye on this young woman for a while now, and her commentary is epic. She is so smart, and totally gets it. Yesterday she made a comment so amazing that I had to re-post: The fact that these miscreants are blaming Christelyn’s messages for causing division in the black “community” speaks […]

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I’ve been having my eye on this young woman for a while now, and her commentary is epic. She is so smart, and totally gets it. Yesterday she made a comment so amazing that I had to re-post:

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The fact that these miscreants are blaming Christelyn’s messages for causing division in the black “community” speaks volumes about how truly in denial they are about what the actual causes of black collective dysfunction is. The antagonism on their part is confirmation of their anti-blackness, and exposes the falsehoods they speak about how white racism and white supremacy are the ultimate deterrent of black collective prosperity. You would think that black men would be attacking and showing this much disdain for those whom they regard as their “oppressors”, but they do not. Their time is most spent bullying and abusing black women.

The more we keep buying into this lie that black men are victims, the worse this is going to get for black women/girls. Any message that paints this degenerate collective as secondary is a threat to them. A clear cut guide on how to separate ourselves from these barbarians who despise us is in their eyes but a sermon on how to sever the chains of servitude that they are so desperate to hold on to. This type of message that Christelyn delivers throws a monkey wrench in their plan to manufacture the mules, mammies, and minions that they deploy on a daily basis to do their dirty work. This type of message pulls the veil off of the raw and harrowing dysfunction that the black “community” works tirelessly to cloak with white supremacy blaming rhetoric and quilting society into excusing their foul behavior by highlighting slavery as culprits for why they hate “their women” and each other so much. This type of message forces NBABM-BM to reexamine their loyalty to a group of men who unabashedly loathe them, and believe that they are entitled to royal treatment and idolization because past transgressions committed by “the man”. 

They are not worried about the well-being of the black family; but rather they are more concerned that Christelyn’s message will parch the very safety net that the black female apologists have cast out for them. If the black family and its success and/or failure were of great importance as they claim it is, then they would be lending their time to protect defenseless black children, mentoring their brothers and uplifting black women. The continual coddling of them by black women and the refuse to put the perpetrators of anarchy on front street are what annihilated the “black community”, yet they identify the epicenter of the disorder to be a message from a practical good quality black woman to other black women to practice self-preservation as the red eyed beast with sharp claws that ripped apart the fabric of “black unity”. It’s ridiculous to say the least. 

The “self-hate was instilled in use by the white man” sermon doesn’t move me in the slightest. Recondition to spite those who seek to lead you to oblivion or shut the hell up! If this DBR scrum be wise enough to identify the who/what/when/where/whys of the programming, then I think it’s safe to say that they also possess the ability to relinquish the destructive and dehumanizing credo of blackness as inferior. 

Black male insanity and hypocrisy rears its ugly head every time they accuse black women of betraying them and their “people” by seeking out and investing in mutually loving relationships with white men (non-black men). The black women is put on trial, ridiculed, and mocked for her desire to seek security and adoration from the white men who are not shy and unapologetic about their love and appreciation for quality black women. However, when black men seek out these types of unions with white women (non-black women) they make doubly sure to sabotage any and all chances for the black woman to acquire functional unions with non-black male counterparts by using social media and other tools as catalysts to prop black women up as an unsavory monolith. Because it has never been nor will it ever be the wish of the black man for the black woman to conquer happiness. They are hell-bent on preventing black women from reaching the mountain top of excellence and contentment simply because they lack the savvy and vigor to do so themselves. I suppose it gets rather lonely sitting in a dark pit of defeat and they are obviously desperate for company. 

It’s strange how they accuse black women of being traitorous for seeking such unions with white men, but yet they are the ones who have launched a crusade to victimize “their own” and evangelize their contempt for their own mothers/aunts/sisters. It’s crazy how they are so obsessed with magnifying the parts of their manifestos that go in-depth about how brazenly unsightly they believe black women to be (especially ones of a darker hue), or how all together undesirable they believe us to be as human beings. But yet somehow we still find room to shame and blame non-racist progressive white males for past sins. We need to let it go and get to tackling present issues they malign black women/girls. These types of black men who relentless dish out this level of bullying are a huge part of our problem. 

Christelyn, I know that it is rough on these “internet streets”. You will always be neck deep in DBR male/female opposers and haters because you are an insurgent against black collective dysfunction. You will always be marked as “the enemy” of black collective betterment simply because “the black male comes first”, or  the “spare black male feelings” arguments are not the core of your message. Add to the fact that you are encouraging other black women to wake up and do the same, quite frankly makes them unhinged. Just know that you have an abundance of support and that we are greatly appreciative of all of the tiresome work that you put in to uplift and advise black women/girls without judgement or bias. Also, thank you for not being as reprehensible as these black male/female vermin who seek to silence you, and make your existence miserable. It’s a quality about you that I greatly admire, because honestly, I don’t think that I could do it. 

And with that…

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Time to Dispel “Black Women at the Bottom of the Barrel” Nonsense! http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/time-dispel-black-women-bottom-barrel-nonsense/ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/time-dispel-black-women-bottom-barrel-nonsense/#comments Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:28:29 +0000 http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/?p=36339 Copying and pasting this GEM  from the THREAD word for word.  OK ladies and gentlemen of the BB&W community. Suit up and have at it. onmywayup4 hours ago Re: this whole “bottom of the barrel” stuff: I’m writing this post because @Leona_LoveQuest made a good point that many black women do struggle with dating interracially, or we […]

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Copying and pasting this GEM  from the THREAD word for word.
 OK ladies and gentlemen of the BB&W community.
Suit up and have at it.
onmywayup

Re: this whole “bottom of the barrel” stuff:

I’m writing this post because @Leona_LoveQuest made a good point that many black women do struggle with dating interracially, or we wouldn’t even have this blog.

I’m all for addressing the issues that some black women are facing, but I’d rather get into the actual issues.

“Black women are at the bottom” doesn’t actually do justice to what’s going on. I think we need a more detailed discussion.

I mean this could be a huge discussion, because there are many factors depending on who we’re talking to.

 

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1. There’s social stigma involved.

Yes, there are men who can’t take being teased, or who don’t want to risk their social lives and careers. Or displeasing their parents. You also have your run-of-the-mill racists.

That’s on them, but I don’t bother with them.

 

2. You have the “it’s okay to date you in private, but you’ll never meet my family” types. I don’t even go near these men.

 

 

3. Or, occasionally, the “I’m dating you because you’re not a spoiled white woman” type. Now admittedly there are some men who might find the black woman they’re with a breath of fresh air after being put through the wringer with their ex, who may have an entitlement complex similar to a lot of black men in this country. So I wouldn’t blame those men for feeling this way. But there are also men who use this as an excuse to treat you like crap, or like a novelty item.

I almost dated one of these types. He pretty much wanted to stick it to his “dumpy” white ex and prove that he could pull a hotter, younger chick. And in this case, being black was a draw because you know we aren’t demanding and spoiled like those white women are. (/sarcasm)

I felt like a domestic mail-order bride. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

 

4. Or black women who are afraid to date out because of black community norms (this has been discussed a lot).

 

 

5.  Not hanging around in the correct environments at an early enough age, not coming of age in the right time or place (for example, if you were 20 twenty years ago or if you are 20 now and are stuck in Mississippi…where about half of its inhabitants don’t even approve of IR dating, you might face challenges).

 

 

6. There are also issues like lack of savvy. I’ve seen a lot of young black women struggle with something that I call a kind of cluelessness. That is, they are not strategic enough in looking for a man. In college, everyone else was studying and dating. Whereas these women were just studying. Many of them also either held out for one of the few black men, or opted to remain single.

Some of them dealt with the church doctrine of waiting for a man to drop out of the sky. (Actually, I know this isn’t the actual doctrine, but that’s how some people seemed to interpret it.)

black-woman-looking-up

 

Many wouldn’t try activities that were outside of the black box. And then they leave college, and things get worse. They get into this routine of work, hanging out with friends, and church and their social life is not very conducive to meeting new men.

 

7. And then there are black women who grew up in the majority white suburbs, like me. Some of us are fortunate. We ‘get’ it and can mingle and date like anyone else.

Some of us didn’t. We were the ‘ugly’ chick in high school (because conformist non-black kids were too afraid to admit they had a crush on you until after you graduated college) and never quite recovered from that, so we stay on the sidelines while the white girls have their fun. We do the right activities but we never fully put ourselves out there, and it doesn’t really occur to us to highlight our best advantages physically. Yes, our physical appearance and how we present ourselves makes a first impression, as does body language. And when you don’t think you are an attractive or desirable woman, you present yourself in a particular way. A way that doesn’t come across as a desirable mate.

off the sidelines

 

8. You have black women who are too black male identified, as @Vivaforever (I think it was) mentioned below. And you find these women at all socioeconomic strata. Women like these do not realize how alienating this mentality is.

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9. Then there are some who just live in the plain wrong section of the country. Though I think this is like the “bottom of the totem” stuff in that it is an overused excuse. I’ve heard people use this excuse for places that are considered interracial dating havens for black women. So location is important, but it’s not as important as we think it is.

There are also other factors that work in concert that may lead to varying experiences for black women.

Note that many of the people on this blog who don’t have issues dating out are younger. Perhaps thinner. Often childless. (Have you noticed that even men with children seem to want to settle down with childless women? What’s that about?) They live in sections of the US that are a bit more conducive to IR dating. Have off the wall interests and don’t associate with the black construct.

Thanks to intersectionality, things like your age, your weight, how many children you do or don’t have, your education, and other factors also determine how you ‘show up’ in this world to other people. For example, a childless black woman may be advantaged compared to a single mother. A black single mother may see more challenges than white single mothers (oddly enough, I’ve seen white single mothers get married faster than I’ve seen black single mothers do this, but am not sure if this is just me). And a single mother who has one child may have it easier than someone who has multiple children.

All these things matter, and this is what we really want to discuss. Being a black woman with certain individual issues, and how those issues merge to become an ‘issue’ for black women in the dating marketplace. And how to navigate the dating scene with common issues that women are having.

Not just some blanket, “black women are at the bottom” nonsense.

P.S. Issa Rae is wrong about Asian men. They may be disadvantaged in the dating market compared to Asian women, but they still ‘date out’ more than other races and are the most married men in this country. The ‘bottom of the barrel’ thing is only a perception for them, rather than a reality. In many ways, Asian men are winning. Quietly*.

I suspect the same is true for black women–for although we are the least married women in the country and date out the least, there has been such a rapid shift in this** in the past five or so years that it is beginning to seem to me that we really were our own worst enemies in this.

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Reader Letter: Black Woman Married to a Black Man Sees the Site for What It Is http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/reader-letter-black-woman-married-black-man-sees-site/ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/reader-letter-black-woman-married-black-man-sees-site/#comments Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:19:49 +0000 http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/?p=31905 I love it when people finally “get” it. The letter… I pop in on your site from time to time and my feelings about what you are trying to do have run the gamut. But your recent posts have made it clear to me that I misjudged your intent, and I wanted to say keep […]

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I love it when people finally “get” it. The letter…

I pop in on your site from time to time and my feelings about what you are trying to do have run the gamut. But your recent posts have made it clear to me that I misjudged your intent, and I wanted to say keep up the good work. Some background:

 

I am a black woman married to an absolutely stellar black man. We have 6 children. We both hail from working class black backgrounds but his intelligence, resourcefulness and hard work has translated into an upper middle class lifestyle for us, enabling me to be at home tending the needs of our home and our children.

 

One of the things he was adamant about was NOT raising our children in or around dysfunctional ghetto culture in any way shape or form. With that choice it has become clear to us that one if not all of our daughters are going to end up marrying outside the color box, which we are fine with.

 

But when I first encountered you it seemed as if you and your writers were hell bent on denigrating black men, and I got a little pissed. I agreed with black women being willing to date and marry outside the color box (and still do) but couldn’t understand why advocating that needed to include bashing my husband.

 

Yes, I know how silly it sounds to accuse you and your staff of bashing my husband but whenever I read a post about how bad black men are, that was how I took it. Broad brushes and all that.

 

However, after seeing your video response to Sue, and reading your impassioned reaction to the death of the married father of 6 in New York, I have a better understanding of what you’re attempting to do. It is important that black women (and men for that matter) who want to live quality lives to be willing to disengage from the dysfunction and open themselves up to all that life has to offer rather than feeling obligated to be bound to a culture and community that cares nothing for them and to which they cannot truly relate.

 

All that to say, I’ll keep reading but with a much more open mind.

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SavageTango tells all: Getting his attention http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/savagetango-drops-knowledge-getting-attention/ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/savagetango-drops-knowledge-getting-attention/#comments Sun, 20 Jul 2014 00:27:01 +0000 http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/?p=31800 SavageTango Let me say right off I’ve been down this road on numerous occasions. I’m no stranger to the issues you’ve raised and understand to a degree where you’re coming from. First things first, as a white dude I take the position that I will gladly listen and sympathize with what you have experienced and […]

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Business People Conversing on TrainSavageTango

Let me say right off I’ve been down this road on numerous occasions. I’m no stranger to the issues you’ve raised and understand to a degree where you’re coming from. First things first, as a white dude I take the position that I will gladly listen and sympathize with what you have experienced and what you have to say about it, but I’m not here to jump all over other men’s insecurities, insensitivities, and inappropriate behavior and comments. I’m not going to pass judgment on those people. You can do that just fine without my assistance.

I’m also not here to throw those guys under the bus, either. Seems they can do that just fine all on their own and hardly need my help gettin under that thing. What I can assist you with, and most willingly I might add, is provide you the opportunity to talk about what’s on your mind and then toss out a few ways to work around it from a white dude’s perspective.

Ya know what? Yeah, you’re gonna get some vile stuff from some vile people. As for how you choose to deal with it, you’re right…you can laugh their crap off if you want. You can ignore it, take the noble and high road and roll your eyes as you walk away knowing you’re getting what you want out of life while he’s wasting his life trying to control yours. I’ll leave it up to you how you choose to deal with people who go off like that, but I’m of the belief living well is the best statement one could make. But don’t be afraid to smirk and rub it in a little if it makes ya feel better too 😉

Personally, I liked the response an acquaintance of mine gave when she got hit with that white man’s whore stuff. She hit him right back with it, looked him dead in the eye and told him straight up,

“That white guy treats his “whore” way better than you’ve ever treated any woman you’ve been with your entire life. You could learn a thing or two from him.”

Like I said, we all deal with it differently. You do what’s right for you, stand your ground and go all in with your choice. I’m behind ya all the way. Hell, I’ll put my arm around you and grin like the Cheshire Cat the whole time you’re sayin it! And then we’ll go have dinner and drinks at this place I’ve been wanting to try out.

Mixed race couple in coffee house

So let’s talk a little bit about empowering here, shall we?

Take a little power and have fun with it! You get out there and you go after who you want. Go find that man you like and don’t be afraid to break the ice and let him know he triggered your Swirlin Radar. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not sayin go be some man chasing thristygirl. I’m saying take control and let him know you have given him the green light to experience what you have to offer. And if he is indeed the caliber of man you’re looking for, he’ll step up and take it from there.

So let me ask you this…how many times have you said,

“Men are easy. Men are soooo easy”.

How many times have you said that? Well, speaking as a man, we can be easy but that’s not the point. What I’m getting at here is if men are indeed so easy, what have you got to lose by exercising a little power, taking control and pushing it a little with the man YOU choose? Don’t be afraid to roll the dice on that dashing dude in the wine aisle at the grocery store. Go ahead, you’re a Classy Lady and the odds are entirely in your favor here. Seriously, they are. Ya know how I know this? Cuz I get hit with it from Lovely Ladies such as yourself. At the dog park. At the grocery store. At a friend’s BBQ. At a wine bar or a jazz club. Now let’s clarify something right here and now. I’m not saying I’m some trophy of manhood, I’m saying more than a few Lovely Black Ladies have taken that power and control and used it to gain my attention. And the results they received were rather favorable!! These were all random, casual comments based on observations that lead to a conversation, and later a dinner date, with a very flattered and willing gentleman. Now I’m not gonna leave ya high and dry here, I’ll spell out for you what specifically worked on me. Seriously, this is what they said. Steal this stuff, use this stuff, benefit from this stuff! If I went for it other gentlemen will too!

At an intersection:

“Hey, I really like the way you drive that Jeep!” (smiles)

At a wine bar:

“That’s a nice shirt you’ve got on. I like your style.” (smiles)

After encountering each other several times in the grocery store…

“Looks like you and I have the same shopping list.” (smiles)

Another time at a grocery store:

“I didn’t know Stone Cold Steve Austin shopped here.” (smiles)

At a dog park after finding out my deaf and blind dog is named Helen:

“You’re a real piece of work, aren’t you?” (smiles)

And yet another time at a grocery store over in the wine aisle:

“Hey, you look like a classy guy. What would you recommend with…” (smiles)

Hey, that grocery store looks like its workin something here, doesn’t it? Well hey, if you choose to drop some of that empowerment on a guy, go on a weekday around 5-6 pm when guys are getting off work and are likely stopping to pick up a few things. That’s when I go and I’ve got no complaints 😉

At a friends BBQ:

“You’re a fun guy. I’ll bet you’re a blast to go out dancing with” (smiles)

So see, live well and rock your Lovely Lady Ways. Take a little bit of that power, use it to control the situation, smile…always smile, and do your thing. Trust me, we men WILL take notice 😉

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Are Women Wrong When They Shut Down Men Who Comment on Her Sexiness? http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/are-women-wrong-when-they-shut-down-men/ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/are-women-wrong-when-they-shut-down-men/#comments Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:44:46 +0000 http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/?p=27362 A recent conversation from the comments over at Consumption and Control: The Foundation of Men’s Sexuality? deserves it’s own post.  FriendsofJay We were just about ready to leave for dinner when I read some comments on this post and decided to reply.  Here are a few ideas.  However, I am not casting aspersions on anyone.  Only […]

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A recent conversation from the comments over at Consumption and Control: The Foundation of Men’s Sexuality? deserves it’s own post.

FriendsofJay FriendsofJay

We were just about ready to leave for dinner when I read some comments on this post and decided to reply.  Here are a few ideas.  However, I am not casting aspersions on anyone.  Only giving an alternative view.

The strides women have made since the 70’s are amazing.  It would be foolish to expect a talented woman who could be a physician, lawyer or accountant, to settle for being solely a wife and mommy———which I personally thing is a pretty noble profession in itself.    Feminism has been a boon to some women who are destined to be doctors or lawyers but other women are not and may feel shortchanged through lack of talent.  It’s like the old American idea of “pulling yourself up your own bootstraps” and becoming a rich.  If everyone could do that, we’d be a nation of millionaires.

Yes, men are sexual beings.  Our sex drive tends to be stronger than women’s, but that is the nature of the human male.  You cannot change a creature’s nature.  But some women have taken this opportunity to use a man’s sexuality against him.  You can see this is everyday life.  If a woman is kind to a child everyone smiles and says “isn’t she sweet.”  If a man is kind to a child, everyone is just a little suspicious.  I like children and so do some other men, but that doesn’t count; we’re still men and therefore suspect.  A friend of my wife’s ( woman) who went to the University of Wisconsin attended some feminists meetings and was told that by one speaker that “every man is a potential rapist.”  I think I mentioned telling a woman I knew on a first name basis that she “had sexy hair” the day she had it down long and straight.  Her reaction of “that’s not appropriate” bothered me to the degree that I now don’t say anything I think can be misconstrued by a woman, but even then some women can actually hear things that aren’t said and see things that aren’t there.

Again, there was a pretty black girl in the housekeeping department of my gym.  We were casually talking one day about how African Americans were all different colors.  She said with a smile “I’ve got white in me.”  I said “it’s not the color, it’s the girl.”  She suddenly gave me a suspicious look as if I was going to bite her, and backed away slowly.  She thought I was hitting on her.

I’m not the only man who feels this way.  Women have acquired enormous power to accuse men of sexual misconduct———real or imagined.  And with any accusation of harassment against a man by a woman, everyone——even men——tend to believe her.  This has made men reticent about being friends with woman.   This has also made men feel ill-used and harassed. I used to be friends with the female personal trainers at the gym.  But they all think any man who’s nice to them is up to no good, so I keep my distance.  Relationships between men and women have suffered because of this.

Women sometimes see or hear something and then think up a scenario to fit the situation.  It puts a guy at a terrible disadvantage, when all he really wants is to be friends.  In the last twenty years many women have become overly sensitive to male “harassment.”  Men have taken evasive action.  That’s not good for the future of boy-girl relationships.

 

Aabaakawad Aabaakawad

@FriendsofJay

I do not think this response to your innocent friendliness is coming from the source you think it is. Very few women get really deep in to feminism. These women are responding appropriately according to their experience, which is with men in general, not with you. They can not read your mind, so they think they are getting the familiar signals of impending unwanted sexual attention. They think this because they have seen it before, and they have learned that unless they nip it in the bud it is very hard to get that prurient interest to subside and get that guy to return to friend or acquaintance status.

As I have replied to you before, you are paying for other men’s sins.

Another point: you know when things are in balance notwhen no mistakes are made, but when just as many overestimates as underestimates are made. IOW, just as many misses to the left as to the right.

You are experiencing mistakes by women overestimating your lust, so it feels out of balance to you. You are not partaking of the interactions where women underestimate the lust, and get burned by unwanted attention, because you took no part in that. But those interactions happen, a lot.

Yeah, men get unfairly thought to be lascivious once in a while. Get. Over. It. Because that is well and truly balanced off by the huge volume of incidents where seemingly innocent interaction escalate into harassment. The women have no choice but to adjust to the environment they are in. And I doubt women were less suspicious in the olden days, they just had less freedom to show their concern — they had no real choice but to smile and be nice.

 

FriendsofJay FriendsofJay

@Aabaakawad, You say that these women “can’t read my mind,” yet they THINK they can and they THINK I have evil intentions on my mind before I’ve said anything.  It doesn’t seem fair for every woman to look at a guy as if he’s a “potential rapist.”  Right or wrong, many men think most women are obsessed with money.  Wouldn’t you be offended if I assumed you were a gold digger and acted accordingly?  Because of the examples I’ve mentioned I’m careful about saying or doing anything around women.  Men expect women to be weird and act in strange ways.  We accept that up to a point———then we give up.  That’s just one more barrier to friendship and romance.

Again, your advice to just “get over it” seems harsh and very much a “my way or the highway” attitude.  If I were to say “get over it” when some men make suggestive remarks to you, I think you’d object———and rightly so.  If most women feel this way, that may be a reason why some men react to you as they do.  You simply can’t assume every man you meet is going to be a scoundrel.

Something girls need to understand: MEN HAVE FEELINGS TOO.

 

Aabaakawad Aabaakawad

@FriendsofJay

Waah wahh wahh waah

Please, unless these women are being harsh to you, rather than merely stopping you from communicating with them in a way THEY DO NOT WANT, it is hard for me to see the problem. They are not assuming ANYTHING. they are mere responding to you APPROPRIATELY according to their EXPERIENCE. They do not have statistical data on how YOU behave, but they have lots of data from their own lives on the behavior of MEN. Hey, if these women want limits on the way you interact with them, let them have the own chosen boundaries. Frankly, Men’s feelings are catered to constantly in this world. Suck it up.

You clearly have no appreciation for what women go through in life. You clearly do not want to understand what women go through in life.

 

FriendsofJay FriendsofJay

@Aabaakawad, Perhaps you were unaware that in our codified system of justice, a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty.  What you’re suggesting is certainly the antithesis of that principal.   Anyone can be accused of anything by anyone.  Man/woman friendships are not codified in law, but when someone figuratively slaps me in the face, I don’t care what their past history is.  That’s kind of like a defense attorney trying to get an innocent verdict for a child molester on the basis that he was molested himself as a child.  Do the parent of that child care if he was molested as a child?  Yet if I am treated preemptively and harshly by a woman because she’s been treated badly by a men in the past, I’m expected to be understanding?   If you want to call that whining, I don’t mind.   I’m talking about the social graces, interpersonal relationships and the fallacy of “judging a book by its cover.”

You said “they are responding to me appropriately based on their experience with OTHER men, BUT I am NOT part of that experience history.  Why should I pay for someone else’s sins?  As for having no appreciation of what women go through in life, I grew up with three sister, a mother and a grandmother all in the same house.  My dad was usually away on business.  My sisters and I talked———a lot.  For some reason, they included me in their “girl talk.”  I learned a good deal from them.  I am well aware of the ups and downs of being a girl, and they learned the ups and downs of being a boy———that’s what I meant when I referred to the social graces and interpersonal relationships.  Until we understand each other there will never be any trust.

Someone on this thread mentioned that human males only keep themselves from aggressively molesting women because of what the French call “a thin veneer of civilization.”  But isn’t that concept of civilization that instills in us the trait that raises up to a higher level than brute animals?  A man in his twenties could probably overpower most any woman and have his way with her, but few do that because we have been brought up to respect and protect women.  When that respect becomes the inverse catalyst for the mischief of seeing all men as potential monsters, we are in effect saying men have shed their civilization and reverted back to a primitive pre-civilized state———which evidently happened concurrently with the advent of feminism——how many of us want to say that?

This may be akin to “reclaimed memory” where psychologists found children who were molested.  The children had forgotten it themselves until the psychologist “helped” them “reclaim” their memories.  You may remember the infamous McMartin day care sexual abuse case from 1983.  After six years of criminal trials, the most expensive criminal case in American history (costing $12 million) came to and end and all charges were dropped because of lack of proof.   Psychologist have written books on what is now called “the day care sex abuse hysteria” of the 80’s.  Some of the children, now grown up, have admitted they saw nothing and had lied about being abused at the suggestion of those psychologists.  Others have referred to the incident as the “second American witchcraft trial.”  Since then all accusation of day care child molestation have been taken with a grain of salt.

One last word and then I’ll call it quits on this problem.  Isn’t there enough evil in the world naturally, without actively searching for it?  Also there is the ever present danger of “the boy who cried wolf.”  If we read numerous cases of sexual harassment, we either have to believe that the male population of the world has turned decidedly evil, or the accusation themselves are overblown.  How long would it be before real, provable cases of accusation were looked upon skeptically?  I don’t want to see that happen to legitimate cases of sexual harassment———and I don’t want to be nominated as “monster of the week” simply because I wear pants.

 

Aabaakawad Aabaakawad

@FriendsofJay

You are throwing in everything but the kitchen sink when really all we are talking about is women not wanting conversation to go in certain directions … and enforcing it.

Ask your sisters (really, ask them) what happens when conversations with strange men or faintly acquainted men start drifting to the woman’s appearance or her sexiness. Often, it escalates to actually hitting on her, rarely (but often enough) it moves into harassment. And men being men, shutting the men down after they have crossed the line into coming on to the women has it’s distinct problems, because then their pride is hurt and they feel they have to prove themselves or take revenge (yes, some men do that).

What women have figured out, and they are correct, is that life goes more smoothly if she never lets strange men get to the point where they have crossed the line.

You think, heck you are practically demanding, that women give you more conversational space because not doing so is “considering you guilty until proven innocent”.

No.

No, your “innocence” is not the most important issue here.

No, they are not obligated to do that.

No, because they are in fact doing the right thing to protect their own tranquility. Unless they are being jerks about it, like dressing you down or some such.

Women have to be firm with men because many men just take mild resistance as a challenge.

I fully understand that you are NOT one of these troublesome men. Fine, take pride in that, and move on when a woman throws up a wall. They have their reasons, and it has nothing, in most cases, to do with feminist indoctrination.

 

tracyreneejones tracyreneejones

@Aabaakawad @FriendsofJay @Brenda55 We are, in essence, having a conversation about male dominance. You FOJ want to be allowed to communicate with women without their putting you in a box that you believe you do not belong.

Men (in general) don’t realize how sexually implied daily conversation is.

“Sexy hair” tells me that my hair is reminding YOU of sex, that is your choice of words, that is the visual you gave me (and probably her). From there I would presume that you ‘see’ that girl sexually, thus, you can envision her hair being ‘sexy’, it’s all related. Whether you intended for it to be sexual, or not, does not matter. Implied meaning can be dangerous.

Many women allow men to go on and on with their (unsolicited/unwanted) dialogue because it is seen rude to shut him down.

As was stated, these men will feel rebuked, and may want revenge.

I have a term for this that I can “D*ck on the forehead* which is the insistence that men (in general) somehow wiggle a sexual overtone into conversation, regardless of the topic, when they are interested in a woman.

You may not have thought yourself interested in this particular woman, but would you have said the same thing to a man?
Would you have referred to an older woman as having ‘sexy hair’?

Would you have found that to be in appropriate or rude depending on a different gender, or age group?

No one owes anyone conversation. No matter how friendly, or well meaning.

Some discussions of sex are off limits, think of women who are very sexually modest (or taught to be).

Think of laws (or past customs) where this type of dialogue would have been seen as forward, insulting to the woman even. You may have found yourself in a duel.

It’s hard to explain to the male gender that they aren’t the cats pajamas. That not all women are seeking friendship and mates, and that all women have the right to be left alone, and spoken to in a gender nuertal manner.

NOW….with that being said, the members of this board are looking for mates, they are curious about the opposite sex. That is a given.

So THESE women are not THOSE women (in general).

Much of what certain woman find annoying (usually by those women with ample attention from men) know that what those women who wish to have attention from men don’t know what they are asking for.

It’s like making a wish..be careful of what you ask for.

Certain male/female interactions are annoying, presumptuous, disturbing and puts one on guard for further interaction.
If certain women DID have the attention of men on a regular basis they may feel the same way.

I also note that certain women, due to their social/emotional deprivation would love to have male attention (of any kind) which is where you have women selling their soul just so that they can be wanted, by a DBR or abusive man, or any man for that matter.

Will you keep it up? Will you react badly if I push back from further conversation? Will the dynamics of what we previously had turn sour, now that I have chosen to not play ‘that game’ with a man?

These are things women have to consider when men are being ‘friendly’ to them.

Are you are as friendly to men, as you are to women? I ask this of men so that they may reflect and see where their actions are subtle, possibly, subconscious efforts at gaining female approval and not just an attempt at being friendly (I understand you meant the statement to be a compliment…)

What is your definition of being friendly? What is your reference point on what is and is not appropriate and to whom?
There is the possibility that you have never been told, in plain words, what is and is not okay.

Women (in general) understand how much of male/female interaction involves tolerating/molding/ and guiding men on how to behave.

If the power dynamics of income where different,historically, would men really be as valued as they believe themselves to be?

I won’t answer that. I will say there is a conversation about the changing perception of what it means to be male.

There is a conversation about women becoming the more powerful gender. If that happens then women will be free to pick, choose or decline males (in general) which you see through women’s rights and there no longer needing to be the presence of a man (economics/social/legal required presence)  in order for a woman to exist in society.

Hope that makes sense. I think you are all awesome…

Watchall think?

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Dear “Nuttin’ Butta Brotha Women”: An Open Letter http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/dear-nuttin-butta-brotha-women-open-letter/ http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/dear-nuttin-butta-brotha-women-open-letter/#comments Mon, 23 Dec 2013 18:17:16 +0000 http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/?p=27317   Dear “Nothing But A Brother” and “I Don’t Date White Guys” black women, How do you feel? Is your holiday season all you’d hope it would be? Are you with your special significant other? If so, congrats. If not…Well, I’ve got some not so good news for you. And it comes by way of […]

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Dear “Nothing But A Brother” and “I Don’t Date White Guys” black women,

How do you feel? Is your holiday season all you’d hope it would be? Are you with your special significant other?

If so, congrats. If not…Well, I’ve got some not so good news for you. And it comes by way of Mr. “IBM” himself. We get all kinds on these boards. Which is funny, because the women here are pretty much not interested in dating black men. We have options and we exercise them on the regular. This is routinely encouraged: We don’t tell black women they can or should only date a man according to his race or ethnicity. So the women here are not limited to any specific kind of man in the global village. And black men are noticing this.

Take a look at this PARTICULAR comment from “Mr. Professional Black Man”:

Now I am a black man… I don’t date white women... its not that I am racist… I can’t be racist because I can’t stop white people from doing anything… I think all women are beautiful including white women… its strictly a matter of preference. I would love to be able to attact a women who was kind or raised like how I was… with options... went to school and is preferably doing the corporate thing because I know she’s got money and she is independent.

How many of you single black women are sitting at home right now thinking, “I do the corporate thing, I have my own money and I’m very independent! Why don’t black men like this look at me?”

Well the answer is right there: This black man is not checking for black women who ONLY want black men. Nope: HE WANTS A BLACK WOMAN WHO HAS OPTIONS.

While you were sleeping, the bar was raised. We know this because we continue to hear from black men like this in pro-interracial dating spaces aimed at black women. They are over here, up in our business, trying to get with women who ARE NOT CHECKING FOR THEM. Why? Because if non-black men think a woman is attractive, then clearly it must be so (I will touch on that WTFery in another post, I promise)? Possibly, but there’s also the fact that professional, educated black women who are going places in life and aren’t looking for a specific race of man don’t scream DESPERATE”.

Of course, these men are puzzled at how to approach such women, since verbal abuse and emotional manipulation doesn’t work. What these men are going to have to do if they want “black women with options” is compete. But, they don’t want to do that.

And that’s where YOU ladies come in.

This is a golden opportunity for you to get the sort of black man you want, since you have been going about it the wrong way for so long.

What you ladies need to do is OPEN UP YOUR OPTIONS. That’s right: Instead of letting everyone who will hear you know, “I’m down for the brothas, nobody else need apply”, maybe you could instead say, “You know what? I’m an attractive educated woman, and I see no reason to limit my dating options.”

If all the black women in America started saying this, you would find things would go a lot differently for those of you who can’t figure out where your next black man is coming from or even where to find one.

He’d find YOU. And then if you wanted to get married, guess what? He’d do that, too. He’d have to, or risk losing out to the Irish, Italian, German, Latino, Korean, etc. men who have no issues with marrying a woman before impregnating her or who don’t see a pregnant woman and child and something to abandon as quickly as possible.

Rather than demand you be there with your two jobs and car to take care of him “as an independent black woman is supposed to”, he would have to go to college, work hard and present to you a lifestyle that could keep up with your needs and the needs of any children you might have. Rather than the onus of “caring for brothas” being placed on black women, black men will have to MAN UP and take care of themselves, learn how to treat and respect women that they want, and actually court black women.

All Because Black Women Stopped Going On About How They Don’t Exercise Their Options.

Now, I’m just throwing you a bone. You don’t have to do any of this. But I figure I’d give you a head’s up in case you were wondering why all your open letters to black men and blogs about why you won’t date interracial was falling on seemingly deaf ears. Why despite black women being unable to shut up about how they only will ever want a black man, there is no stampede of brothers to their door steps with flowers in hand.

And why all the black men you want so bad are over here, bothering black women that will never be interested in them at all, or certainly interested in limiting themselves to just black men.

At some point, you need to connect the dots and realize that one group is more attractive than the other and why you’re not as attractive despite all the love and loyalty in your heart.

 

It’s not because you aren’t raising enough of a ruckus about “black love” and “supporting black men”. THEY HEAR YOU LADIES, THEY JUST DON’T CARE. They don’t care because you are immobile. They know they can go after whoever they want, including us women not checking for them – because they know you will be there if they want to come through. They know you will welcome them with open arms and a freaking parade no matter what they say or do. You are perennially available and refuse to exercise your options by dating according to things other than skin color. Loss of you is impossible, so your relevance is non-existent.

No matter HOW LOUDLY you holler about black men, this will not change. Want change in the New Year? Start hollering about Swedes and see what happens.

XOXO

 

– Toni

 

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