Many high profile African-Americans lamented the image of young black men as criminals during the Trayvon Martin tragedy. To them, it isn’t fair that young black males are the victims of racial profiling. Although there is a long way to go, many people listened. And now look what happened. A young and promising white Australian man, Christopher Lane, was killed by two bored black teenage males. It should also be noted that a white teen was charged with being an accessory to Lane’s murder. We don’t yet know if this case was racially motivated or not. We do know that it is another blow to race relations. It’s also a reminder of a chilling fact that many people just don’t want to deal with. Here’s a quote from a piece by John McWhorter:
The numbers don’t lie: young black men do commit about 50% of the murders in the U.S. We don’t yet know whether the attack on Lane was racially motivated,
Young black men murder 14 times more than young white men.
That numbers are staggering since black men make up 6% of the population give or take a few percentage points. BUT, as horrible as this crime and the stats are, I cannot ignore a few things:
1- Since Chris Lane was a white man, he will most certainly get justice. Racial double standard or not, he deserves it.
2- The young thugs will probably be in jail for the rest of their lives if they don’t get the death penalty. Either way, they deserve it.
3- Black women are going to have to face and triumph against increasing racial hostility. That might require sacrifice.
4- If President Obama had a cousin on his mother’s side, he’d look like Christopher Lane.
5 – If you swirl, your rainbeau might look like Christopher Lane.
I see no reason to be optimistic about the damning statistics or current racial climate in this country. Are you ready to deal with it?
I don’t know if this murder is really an indication of anything, especially worsening racial relations. As of yet, no motive has been released (according to your report) and the perpetrators were a racially mixed group of teens. According to link the boys were just some bored thugs who randomly decided to make Mr. Lane their victim.
The “white” teen actually looks racially mixed, IMO.
I think this murder speaks volumes of the race relations in this country. It is very alarming when a small percentage of the population is causing that much violence. It is not anything that can be hid and it is clear as day as to who causes the most problems in the country crime wise. One of the guys was on his twitter talking about how he hates white people and admiring Chief Keef of all people (SMH). So I think it can be argued that it indeed was racially motivated. I think the writing on the will negatively affect us black women. Since bw as a whole do not speak out about the violence committed by black males in the Black American community because criticizing black males is considered blasphemous. I am glad that there are articles like this one.
My heart and prayers go out to this man and his family, he will certainly get the justice he deserves.
About #3…….. I was thinking the exact same thing When I read about this story on other news outlets the comments by racists were of course crazy. I am worried that news stories like these will spawn more George Zimmermans leaving us open for attacks. Racists automatically assume that the attack was racially motivated because the victim is white. Maybe I am being too much of an alarmist.
I am so sorry to say I saw this time coming many years ago. The hatred unresolved in America is her ruin, and things will only get worse. If you don’t have your passport, do so yesterday. Make as many international friends as possible. Single ladies make sure you include “willing to relocate international” in your online marriage searches. And no matter your faith (while doing all you can do) speak a prayer for every last Black woman and girl living on the planet now.
As an Australian I think of this as less of an attack based on race or racism and more of a gun problem. Easy access to firearms in America is absolutely frightening to those of us from overseas. We had the world’s worst gun massacre for the time at Port Arthur in Tasmania and the government snapped into action with gun restrictions. Another one came for restrictions on pistols after a shooting where two died and five were wounded. Since the first set of restrictions, we’ve had no gun massacres at all. Criminal gangs here in Australia have to organise themselves to get guns from overseas if they want unregistered/unrestricted ones, which is not easy to do so. Our level of gun crime has dropped, as well as suicide by guns, and accidental death from them too.
There is going to be a lot of people who play up the black teenagers vs white teenager angle, but more often over here we’re more saddened by the numbers of gun related crime and death you have to deal with in the US, and that if we Australian’s come to visit, we’ve got to be careful because of it. That and the medical situation (which you’re making excellent progress in with the Affordable Care Act might I say, praying it leads to single payer for you) is two of the greatest fears I have about relocating to the US – Being shot or being injured/sick/unwell and not having the right insurance.
To those who are thinking of moving overseas and visiting other countries, think about doing so if you want a big life change. Australia is the size of the US minus Alaska, but with less population than Texas. We can take you in no worries! And also because it means more diversity to our country which I really want to see happen more as we progress forward.
@Jamila He definitely looks racially mixed and I’m still trying to figure out why he’s being described as white by the media.
Apparently, Edwards posted a tweet claiming 90% of the white race is disgusting (a few months back). His father is attempting to do damage control downplaying the history of his son’s violent behavior and brushes with the law. smh.
Edwards is in the second pic and I think the youngest of the thugs.
What an incredibly sad story. My condolences to the Lane family.
@MiMikins512 @Jamila Yes, it is important to put stats into perspective whether it’s this one, OOW births and consequences, welfare, STD’s (which are largely directed at BW), and this stat (pertaining to BM and crime). But often, that perspective is a hard pill to swallow. It is my humble opinion that we can’t afford to ignore the numbers because it makes us uncomfortable or look bad. Yes, blacks should be scared of other blacks if anyone has to be scared at all but are people just being racist when they state and present stats showing that more blacks kill and rape whites than whites kill and rape blacks or that blacks are safer walking through a white neighborhood than we are in an inner city black neighborhood? Yes, most crimes are intraracial but who is more likely to be a victim of interracial crime (even though the crime may not be racially motivated) Don’t get me wrong, racists definitely skew the numbers to justify racism. But, ignoring the numbers is far more detrimental. There is a problem of violence and criminality among the black male collective that must be dealt with. There are no easy solutions.
@Lili2009 There was a time when I would have disagreed with your comment, but as a former HS teacher I now see your point. I agree that these lessons should come from the home and when it comes down to it, parents are responsible for teaching these lessons to their children. But, does that mean that school communities should wait for ineffective parents to get their acts together when there is a dire need? Somebody has to do something and the next best place to learn these lessons outside the home are the schools.
@Lili2009 More on the parents
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398952/Chris-Lane-shooting-Parents-bored-teens-shot-Australian-baseball-player-weep-court.html
@500and50 I just might want to move to Australia…
@Jamila I know. I thought the “white” teen looked kinda mixed too, In fact he looks like one of my relatives, sorta.
@Lili2009 I *love* the Daily Show! We have to be a bit sneaky to see it here in Australia (you can’t normally see it on the website if you’re outside of Australia). My brother and I tried to get Colbert and Daily Show tickets when we were in New York, but couldn’t make it happen unfortunately. And yes, John Oliver is absolutely correct about it. We’ve got less pressure here from lobbyists from the gun industry than in the US, so I do think that also makes a big difference.
And yeah, I shouldn’t be so flip as to say that availability is the only cause of the murder rate in the US, there are a ton of causes. Gun violence still happens here, but thankfully it’s rare. We’ve to to work on a lot of our other problems too (binge drinking, street brawls, domestic violence, racism), so I can’t say we’re a complete paradise, but I think we did the right thing vis-a-vis gun control.
Still want to head to NYC, it’s a great place. I really do love the US, it’s just sad to hear such tales in the news so often.
@MiMikins512 @Jamila Thanks for clarifying and I agree 100%.
The civil rights movement is always talking about the “Prison Industrial Complex” and how it must be stropped. But I always thought to myself that if these men didn’t commit a crime, that they knew was a crime, then they would not be in prison. I doubt that many of them are innocent and there for no reason. When they get locked up that keeps them from hurting people outside of prison. Unfortunately, once they enter the prison system they may become criminals for life and continually hurt people once they are released. I just think that they are in prison for a reason. BM keep ignoring the fact that they commit more crimes and act like its not true when everyone knows it is. Yes, it has to do with poverty but that doesn’t give one license to hurt others. We can’t just let allow people to hurt others until poverty is magically eliminated.
I always found it strange the way that civil rights leaders would talk about the problem. They would complain that Black people get longer sentences or they are charged more often than White people. So they will be happy if Black people get away with crime more often? They want Black victims to get less justice than White victims? They want Black criminals to be free and walking the streets more? Don’t they want to protect their communities? Sentences can be changed if they want, but the fact is a crime was still committed and BM commit more crimes, so they will still go to prison more often. Personally, I think anyone involved in gangs should go to jail for life and that would solve a lot of problems.
I don’t know, it’s a very complex problem and these are just some thoughts that come up for me. I know that the men have probably had horrible lives and that is always their excuse…but their behaviour must not be excused! Just because you have been hurt doesn’t give you the right to hurt others and go unpunished. I keep on hearing the excuses from BM though. They keep talking about giving them treatment but I don’t know if treatment works to stop people from committing crime ( I just don’t know). Plus, who wants to put themselves in harms way by giving them treatment?
@onmywayup I’d encourage anyone interested to seriously look into it. We’re kind of expensive right at the moment, due to the fact our economy is doing well and we weathered the global financial crisis very well due to good economic handling by the government, but I am not sure how long that will stay that way. House prices are expensive, as well as rent and other costs, but we’ve got a great health system, and minimum wage is around $17 an hour (though it has to be for some of the prices here). Check it out, and if it’s agreeable, why not?
Did these statistics note that these Black men are mostly killing each other? Just curious…
@shondi
My heart and prayers go out to this man and his family, he will certainly get the justice he deserves.
AGREED.
The Chris Lane murder is a disgusting act of horrific violence. The scumbags who committed this act should be punished to the full extent of the law. No question.
However, Chris Lane is not Trayvon Martin. People who suggest otherwise miss the point. Under their reasoning, any killing of a stranger with a gun is the same as Trayvon Martin.
The outrage over Trayvon was not the underlying act of violence. It was the fact that Zimmerman was able to walk away from it more or less free and clear, without being punished. We as a society punish people who kill dogs more severely than Zimmerman was dealt with. It represents a statement about the value our cultur places on the lives of young black men.
The outrage is exacerbated by the disgusting way some on the Republican side have tried to demonize or “monsterize” Trayvon to suggest that he “needed killing”. First, unless I’m mistaken, even if Trayvon was a “thug”, that’s not grounds for capital punishment in our country. Second, as I understand the facts, Trayvon was far from a “thug”. To the contrary, he was a more or less normal teenage boy (if there is such a thing). Played some sports, was well liked by many in his school, had a family that loved him. His brother is going to college as I understand it. Sure, he smoked a little spliff and got in a few fights. What teenage boy doesn’t do that? Pretty much everybody I knew in high school fit that description. That doesn’t make them “thugs”.
Im not feeling this post. It reeks of bigotry against Black men.
Futhermore, stop making a mockery of Christopher Lane’s death by suggesting he was killed bcus of the color of his skin. Its insulting.
The issue I have with the quoted statistics is that it ignores who the victims are of violence most of the time: Other black people, and especially black women. But because the persons involved are black, nobody cares. I wonder if anyone would have cared on a national level about this case if all the persons involved were black.
I think the racial climate of the country continues to be, “We aren’t ready to address violence unless we can use it to talk about racism.” And that’s a problem.
Violence doesn’t cease to be violence the people killing each other are all the same race. Nor do I get the luxury of pretending that I’m not more LIKELY to be a victim of violence in the United States as a black woman than a Christopher Lane. What happened to him was tragic, but must be kept in perspective.
Black women have a hell of alot more to worry about than “racial hostility” as there have always been racist white people looking for an excuse to validate their racism. I’m rarely concerned with bigots, unless they pose a threat.
Some black women live in places where they are not safe to walk down the street. But no one cares because they’re black. No one cares about their share in those statistics because they are black. That is pretty much what I gained from this article, and it doesn’t exactly ease my mind.
Especially when the comparison raised was not a young murdered black woman, but a young murdered black teen.
The face of racial controversy for all the concern in this article will never be black women. We simply don’t exist.
@Neckelzgrl That was the first thing I thought of too… sure it’s 50% of the murders but we all know deep in our bones that whenever a black person commits a crime against a white person they are thrown under the jail, there is no leniency, sweeping it under the rug or turning the other cheek; there’s no gain from it. So to use that number as a supporting point is kinda missing the point….
Also, I really hope people aren’t going to use this case to “uphold” the outcome of the Martin case. Because it just shows that people continue to view all black people as interchangeable. That’s not a bigoted belief system I’d find it wise to cooperate with.
@MiMikins512 @LorMarie
“But those statistics in the wrong hands with the right audience could create other problems for us as a community; problems we’ve already seen played out in the media. ”
But that’s what will inevitably happen when these facts can be easily found and shared in modern times. It’s not as though White folks don’t know BM commit more crimes, it’s not a secret. They are already fearful of BM so this crime will just add another example of what they already believe. The stats and printing them are not the problem, BM committing crimes is the problem and as long as they continue doing so people will be afraid of the Black community and Black people.
@500and50 I think it’s funny because persons in the international community are more concerned about the gun violence than the race of the people involved. The opinions I’ve seen say that what happened is a symptom of a country with a gun problem and no sensible way to control it.
The only people that seem to be caught up in the race of the people involved are Americans, and of course that takes priority over a question of gun control.
It’s very interesting stepping back and seeing where priorities are based on location. White Americans will think foreigners feel unsafe because of black criminals meanwhile foreigners don’t feel safe because there are too many unstable gun owners here, regardless of their race.
@500and50
Thank you for inviting us. I have heard wonderful things about your country from mostly Black people. Visiting and perhaps moving there is in my 3-5 year plan. thx, again.
@500and50 @onmywayup “….and minimum wage is around $17 an hour.”
O_O
But at least the wage WENT UP with costs.
@Loake Translation: these statistics make me uncomfortable and I have no further argument but strawman fallacy:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
Do you have any stats or figures showing that young black men are in fact NOT responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime?
@Toni_M Unfortunately, I think that many people will. I just hope that those people aren’t in positions of power and affect public policy.
@Elegance From my reading and learning about this issue, it is my understanding that the real problem with the Prison Industrial Complex is not violent criminals being rightfully put away (after being correctly found guilty and NOT wrongfully convicted) but the criminalization of drugs and the culture surrounding it and the disproportionate targeting of black men and women who DO NOT actually participate in these activities any more than white people. The criminalization of marijuana and the entire war on drugs itself is, at the most benign, a ridiculous misuse of time and law enforcing energy, or at its most evil, a real attempt to further marginalize black people in this country. The stamp that follows these people around once convicted of a crime is life altering, and when it is for sole reason of having drugs on them (in a society where you’re treated like an abomination, drug use tends to be the only outlet for pain and suffering, so I think black people who know no better medicate themselves the best way they know how) turns these ex-cons into second class citizens with no prospects for improving themselves lawfully outside of prison… the cycle of crime and prison is then solidified. We have a problem with the laws governing the severity of punishment of nonviolent crimes in this country. To ignore the gut feeling one gets when they weigh the possibility that this is a purposeful attempt to end the black population is to reject your understanding of the history of humanity on this planet…
@Toni_M @onmywayup Yeah absolutely, anything less and people will be caught in a debt spiral, and that’s no good for anybody. Unfortunately some employers try to circumvent this in various ways, but a lot of our industrial relations laws put paid to that. I am just hoping the Liberal Party (a conservative party in Australia) doesn’t win the election, otherwise some of those protections are likely to be stripped away. Still expensive to live here though, and for those on low minimum wage jobs throughout their life, it’s seeming more and more like they won’t be able to save for a house of their own, and be stuck renting all their life.
@cns Not a problem 🙂 I’m always trying to be an ambassador for my country when I can. I hope you have a great time when you come over. So many different ways to live depending on what you like. New Zealand is also a great place so if you get a chance to visit our south eastern cousins, you’re likely to have your socks blown off by some of the most beautiful scenery you’ve ever seen, and they’re just as friendly or friendlier than us, even though we try to make it look like we’re rivals. Above all, make your dreams come true. Good luck!
@LorMarie
Thats funny. I dont recall saying anything about statistics. Is this post about the disproportionate amount of crimes committed by Black men? Or is this post about Christopher Lane being senselessly murdered by 3 “bored” teens
(including a WHITE one) ?
@Loake You didn’t say anything about the stats because all you could do was cry racism against the stats presented. Btw, Lane was murdered by TWO bored black teens with a white one said to be involved AFTER the fact (perhaps hiding the ones who did it). I’ll give you one score point. Luna has a white mother (not sure if he was adopted or not) so he MIGHT be biracial. The white teen is now claiming that the two blacks bullied him and were trying to join the Crips gang (how convenient).
Anyway, this post is about how a murder (as well as stats) committed by black males could further harm race relations and give people are reason to justify stereotyping, racial profiling, etc as evidenced by conservative media hyping up the racial element.
@Toni_M That’s exactly it. I guess I have been spoilt. I can walk around where I please here and pretty much the last thing on my mind is if someone is likely to shoot me. This story is for us (well those of us who aren’t east-coast racist radio talkback presenters who jumped right into it here in Australia) is more about the gun problems more than what colour the person was who shot Chris Lane. That’s the larger problem we see.
When I was in NYC, I would have had a much less fun time if I hadn’t of stopped to speak to people of all backgrounds. I’m kind of trapped down here on a big island. No matter where I drive, it’s always Australia. We’re open and travel hungry people, wanting to see different things to what we’ve got. We’re wary of the dangers of places, but I guess you’ve got to take the good with the bad, just be aware of where you are. Unfortunately for Chris he probably thought he was fine. I wouldn’t have expected him to live any differently, nor would I want him to. What’s the point in travelling if you’re too afraid to go out. It’s just a shame that this happened to him as it did. But then again, same goes for every tragedy, even the one of these young kids likely to never see anything other than the inside of a prison cell or face the death penalty. They have done the wrong thing, and as such, they’ve cut their own lives short as a result of doing so.
@500and50 @Toni_M
As much as the US violent crime rate is publicized around the world, something like what happened to Mr. Lane is an extremely rare occurrence. Most of the crime is confined to a few inner city areas. A random shooting in a rural area like this is an anomaly. The odds of this happening to someone jogging in a rural area are extremely low. It isn’t something to change your travel plans based on.
@LorMarie “You didn’t say anything about the stats because all you could do was cry racism against the stats presented.”
No. I think I have more insight into what Loake was “crying” about than you do. And it was over the overall tone of this post.
“Although there is a long way to go, many people listened. And now look what happened. A “young and promising white” Australian man,Christopher Lane, was killed…”
“4- If President Obama had a cousin on his mother’s side, he’d look like Christopher Lane.” < ?????
“5 – If you swirl, your rainbeau might look like Christopher Lane.”< ??????
Im not trying to attack u. Im just trying to understand.
@500and50 @Toni_M
BTW, The ship I was on made a couple of port calls in Perth and Hobart. Those were some fun times. I love Australia.
BUT, as horrible as this crime and the stats are, I cannot ignore a few things:
You forgot one more. 6 – If you have a biracial son, he may be stereotyped into being an African-American man. Therefore, he may be subjected to the same stereotypes as African-American men.
Race has absolutely nothing to do with crime. The lack of parenting, education, substance abuse, and poverty has a lot to do with crime. How many men in prison were raised by single mothers? How many men in prison don’t read and write on a 12 grade level? How many men in prison were raised in poverty? How many men in prison abuse drugs or alcohol? Some Americans are fascinated with race. Until all Americans become fascinated with the issues that turn men into criminals, crime will continue to rise.
I see no reason to be optimistic about the damning statistics or current racial climate in this country. Are you ready to deal with it?
As an African-American man, I have always been optimistic about race relations in this country. I understand my life is not a statistics. I also understand that racist people cannot stop me from living a happy life. I judge people on character, and doing so has allowed me to build lifelong friendships.
@LoakeNo. I think I have more insight into what Loake was “crying” about than you do. And it was over the overall tone of this post.”
And since I wrote the post, I have more insight as to what my motives are for writing this post. To be very honest, I’m not going to (and notice I didn’t) confirm or deny that this is biased against black males since that nonsense is always directed at black women when successful arguments against what was said cannot be made. I care not if you or anyone else thinks I hold angst. I do enjoy arguing, though.
Seriously, if you are upset at or question why I referred a victim of a brutal crime as promising, you really need to ask yourself why. Let me remind you that someone died.
“Im not trying to attack u. Im just trying to understand.”
Please, LOL. Continue to misunderstand me.
@Brice Cameron @Toni_M If you were in the military and came to Australia via ship, you likely landed in Fremantle in Western Australia. It’s cool to see US servicemen in Perth, they’re a friendly bunch and always grateful for help and assistance, not to mention stimulating the local economy 🙂
And yeah, we’re not completely clued in to where the violent crime occurs, and it’s a generalisation, but as outsiders it’s often hard to see the specifics of places and instead take things as a whole instead.
I seldom listen to that Big Mouth, Rush Limbaugh. It’s disgusting how he can spin an everyday item into a major tragedy. But on this one occasion he mentioned that the Trayvon Martin case had wall-to-wall coverage on all major television channels, but there has been very little coverage of the Chris Lane incident. There was no Al Sharpton, no Jesse Jackson, etc decrying the death of a teenager. Regrettably, he is right. Both the black and white citizens of our country would be more in tune with minority kids if Sharpton and Jackson protested the drive by killings of ALL young people. This would show that their compassion was blind and that both sides could feel sympathy FOR both sides.
Imagine Sharpton and Jackson making speeches and television appearances speaking out on the murder of Chris Lane by three black teenagers. There would suddenly be respect for their motives. They would no longer be seen as decrying only the plight of the black man. The WC could not ignore such a selfless pronouncement. That would be a very definite start to tearing down barriers to race relations. When people feel that we are “all in this together,” and interested in justice for all, both sides can consider themselves “one people” with an outrage against crime.
But as it is, we usually only see the BC outraged when a black teenagers is killed, and the WC outraged when a white teenager is killed. We as a country MUST show compassion for ALL victims of crime. That way instead of both sides looking at the color of the victim, they can see only the evil of the perpetrator. THE COLOR OF THE VICTIM AND THE CRIMINAL CANNOT BE IMPORTANT IN THE IDEA OF EQUALITY!
Black teenagers, hearing what they must hear about white people in the BC, may believe that their community supports them in violence against white people. That must stop. When you expect prejudice, you will see it weather its there or not. Also, whites must stop speculating that black people are somehow worth less than white people, especially to their children. The idea of equality doesn’t simply mean “equality of opportunity,” it also must mean “equality of judgement for breaking the law.” Until we apply the law evenly to both black and white, we have caused disrespect for the law.
I have a reputation for being an idealist. I suppose its deserved. Idealism is seen by many as a unrealistic approach to a problem. But the line between idealism and reality can sometimes be easily crossed by a simple word or an action. But for the ideal to enter the real world, people must WANT it.
@500and50 @Toni_M
Right, we did land in Fremantle. I was in the Navy on the U.S.S. John C Stennis.
@The ArchAngel No I didn’t forget it. Problems faced by African-American men are not the concern of this post. A young man (not AA) was murdered.
“How many men in prison were raised by single mothers?”
How many of these men had fathers that were gangbangers or criminals and they were following in daddy’s footsteps.
“How many men in prison don’t read and write on a 12 grade level? How many men in prison were raised in poverty?”
And how many more in the same predicament never committed crimes or even lifted themselves out of poverty. Last time I checked, most poor people aren’t committing crimes. Please, no more excuses.
“How many men in prison abuse drugs or alcohol?”
And they are still at fault for commiting crimes and ending up in prison.
“As an African-American man, I have always been optimistic about race relations in this country. I understand my life is not a statistics. I also understand that racist people cannot stop me from living a happy life. I judge people on character, and doing so has allowed me to build lifelong friendships”
As an AA man, it’s time to admit that there are serious problems among the AA male collective and it’s time to stop blaming everything else except AA men that commit crimes.
@shondi “Racists automatically assume that the attack was racially motivated because the victim is white.”
You mean the same way they assumed GZ was a racist because the victim was black?
Please note: The tweets of the young man in THIS incident do not prove that the attack was racially motivated. The young man could be a racist and attacked Mr. Lane “for fun” or “part of a gang initiation.”
@The ArchAngel
“Until all Americans become fascinated with the issues that turn men into criminals…”
That’s an important point. Too often people on focusing using a crime to make a political point, they aren’t really interested in reducing crime in certain communities.
@Brice Cameron @Toni_M Good stuff! Though depending when you came over you might have had a bit of a rougher time. In the 80’s and into the 90’s there was a bit of animosity towards US servicemen, mainly because the locals were a bit envious of them being cashed-up, dressed smartly and a hit with the ladies. Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed yourself while you were here, and that you come visit again if you’re out traveling again. We’re a small city in feel, but I hope you were made to feel welcome.
@The ArchAngel Also note, this young man tragedy will be all over the white news and they will be comparing him to Trayvon ( like one can even do that). Lor is right though, he (unlike many black vics) will get justice.
@FriendsofJay
“But as it is, we usually only see the BC outraged when a black teenagers is killed, and the WC outraged when a white teenager is killed. ”
Sorry to correct you but I think you meant “black MALE teenagers”. That’s the only time the black community is “outraged.”
@Toni_M //Some black women live in places where they are not safe to walk down the street//
True. I saw a black woman write an article about her support of stop and Frisk. But your comment is so true. Black victims are not given much attention.
Great debate, everyone. Before I leave you all to discuss this among yourselves, I blame ineffective parenting with other things like the glorification of thug culture thrown in. The gun issue may be a contributing factor since in the south, almost everyone owns a gun (it appears). As parents, it is crucial that we pay more attention to what our children are doing. Note, Edwards’s father keeps saying that he didn’t know that his son was making videos of himself holding guns. How could a parent not know their child has such a weapon and a large one at that? Why is Luna’s mother comparing her pain to Lane’s mother?
All I can say is, this is what happens when parents don’t do their jobs.
@LorMarie @The ArchAngel
” Problems faced by African-American men are not the concern of this post. A young man (not AA) was murdered.”
And that’s a problem. You can’t really talk about murder victims and then say let’s ignore the factors that made it more likely the criminals would murder someone. If we are interested in there not being anymore Christopher Lanes then we have to talk about the people who murdered Mr. Lane and why they may have done it.
In other words, if you say you want to talk about black males who commit crimes then that conversation also has to be open to discussion about the problems facing black men, problems that may be influencing the rate at which they commit crime.
But people (not saying you, LorMarie) who say, “I don’t want to talk about WHY these people did this” are normally saying that because they don’t want to discuss the economic disparities in this country, they don’t want to discuss health care or the education system. What they want to be able to say is, “Look, black men are criminals, case closed, now let’s get back to business as usual, now that we have shifted any and all blame away from ourselves, away from white people, and away from any discussion of inequality.”
@FriendsofJay
But by the same token, Rush Limbaugh and his ilk are not going to look into Chris Lane’s history and ask if he may have used drugs in the past or question what nefarious reasons he had for jogging through that neighborhood.
@MiMikins512 @LorMarie
” For those who are out murdering people, they’re murdering their own. But I would venture guess that more than a few people (black and white) reading the above statistics in a story about a white man being murdered by two black teens are assuming just the opposite. That both breeds and feeds hate. If that’s not a problem for you, then it’s not. But as a black person who could at any moment become the focus of that hate, I feel it’s a problem.”
This reminds me of the way that many people (especially White people) were questioning why Black people said they were so afraid after the Zimmerman trial. Parents were asking how they would explain the murder to their kids. Grown Black men were saying they were afraid that some other non-Black person would shoot them for “looking suspicious”.
Critics were confused because it seemed unreasonable to be worried about an isolated incident that rarely causes Black deaths when Black folks are more at risk of getting killed by BM. They wondered why are you even bothering to explain the isolated incident to kids when you should be explaining that BM commit more crimes and as a Black person, especially a BM you are more likely to be killed by another BM than a WM (so stay away from gangs and kids you know who commit crimes or act violent). They wondered why are Black folks were not afraid after hearing about senseless BM murders and crimes day after day but it’s Zimmerman and community watch people that they feared. It’s like worrying about catching a rare horrible disease instead of the things that are most likely to kill you (e.g., car accidents, heart disease, falling etc.). Black people should be more afraid of BM hurting them in the process of a crime than being the target of hate. Crime breeds fear and hatred of the criminals, that’s the way it goes, and if a large proportion of the criminals are Black then they will be the target of hate. I’m not saying that’s fair bu I understand why people would be afraid. It’s not racism in my opinion.
@LorMarie @Criticalthinker
This Salon article notes that there is “(…some question as to the race of one of the three teens, the driver, who faces lesser charges).”
I’m guessing he’s a fair-skinned black kid or mixed.
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/no_chris_lane_is_not_trayvon_martin/
@500and50 @Toni_M
So, you are in Freemantle? I was there around ’98. I don’t remember the exact year. I didn’t notice any animosity and I felt very welcome. The ladies liking US servicemen was a big part of it. One of the few places where the uniform was an advantage.
@MyCherie @Elegance Suburban kids are not killing each other over drugs at rates you see in the city so that is one of the reasons for the disparate law enforcement, but other than that I agree with your analysis.
The drug war is immoral on multiple levels and must be ended.
@LorMarie @The ArchAngel
BRAVO!!!!! Enough with the excuses. If you commit a crime then you are to blame. If you don’t commit crimes then you are not to blame. People can make choices and many choose not to commit crime.
@Brice Cameron @Toni_M I live North of Perth, up the coast, Fremantle’s a bit of a drive from where I am. And yeah, the women here love a man in uniform. Especially from the US, makes you seem more “exotic”, which is always a boon. Same experience I received when I was traveling around the world. Glad to hear you were made to feel welcome, always like to think we take care of visitors. Sadly, not always the case.
@Jamila @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
There are systemic problems that contribute to our high crime rates. It is not due simply to race, but looking at this specific case, how did economic disparities or the health care or education system cause these kids to murder. The government didn’t create these monsters. It looks to me like clueless parents created these monsters. Just look at the pictures the kids posted on social media. Any reasonable person could see they were not going to do good things.
@Elegance @MiMikins512 @LorMarie Great points!!!
I would like to add that part of some WP’s misunderstanding of this comes from an unwillingness to understand that sometimes, that cop IS racist and there IS a need for black men to be especially aware of how they carry themselves in dealings with law enforcement.
IMO the Zimmerman/Martin incident was not racial (for the most part) and the whole circus makes it harder for people of good will to solve two real problems: racial disparities in out justice system and the folks who suffer at the hands of black criminals.
@Blanc2 “Chris Lane is not Trayvon Martin”
You could be correct, as far as we know, at no time did Mr. Lane hit or strike the accused teens. As of yet the teens have no self defense claim…
@Jamila
“In other words, if you say you want to talk about black males who commit crimes then that conversation also has to be open to discussion about the problems facing black men, problems that may be influencing the rate at which they commit crime.”
I think you have a valid point here. This would make a good sister post to this one. We should have this discussion here….with limits. If you want to write an article to this effect I would be more that happy to moderate that discussion.
@Jamila @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
After thinking about it, I want to change my answer. Rap music created these monsters. Clueless parenting only contributed to it. They were obviously emulating rappers who glorify guns, violence and the “thug lyfe” in those pictures. They took it seriously.
@Toni_M “I wonder if anyone would have cared on a national level about this case if all the persons involved were black.”
The answer is the same as the one that was asked in the Martin case, and the answer is of course no.
A “good” racial controversy glues eyeballs to TV sets and is much more “sexy” than trying to solve problems or face uncomfortable facts.
@DWB
Allow me to restate and clarify. It does not matter what this young man tweeted because two of the perpetrator were black it is automatically assumed by crazy extremists that they attacked him because he was white. This is proof enough for some of them to take up arms and possibly take their anger out on innocent people. There is a post here on BBW where an interracial couple was attacked by bigots that is what worries me.
Who exactly are you referring to when you say “they” ?
As for GZ whether or not he is racist we can argue that all day( I’m not because I don’t have time) the fact remains he pursued TM because he “looked suspicious”. A lot of people echoed this sentiment in support of GZ as if Trayvon was being tried and convicted in his own murder.
The bottom line is I date outside my race but that does not mean that I don’t care about what happens to my people. Furthermore some thought has to be given to how we as BM and BW are going to be protected should things get progressively worse in this country as far as race relations goes.
@Jamila @LorMarie @Criticalthinker
The articles that I have read indicate that there was 1 black male, 1 biracial and 1 white male. The shooter (Luna) has a white mother.
Watch the new video.
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2013/08/oklahoma-teens-allegedly-kill-college-athlete-because-they-were-bored/
@DWB
No disrespect to you. I did not bring up GZ to draw a comparison between Chris and Trayvon. I brought him up to illustrate how prejudice can cause innocent people to get hurt or killed.
@Elegance
Hi there Elegance: Thank you for your comments. In one paragraph you referenced poverty, as have many other posters, as the underlying reason for BM incarceration and a myriad of other pathologies. I am not sure that poverty is the primary culprit for this problem. I take this position because looking back on the BC extreme poverty in the earlier part of the 20th century and even after slavery, I am not sure that these issues were at the top of the list for BM.
I know the following position may not be a popular one but I honesty believe that one of the biggest, if not the most significant, problems affecting these pathologies is the LACK of MARITAL FAMILY FORMATION among a great percentage of the black collective. If nothing else, for the naysayers to this position, please look at what is working in other more successful communities for verification; it certainly isn’t government programs or, more education.
@lalalee0305 “In one paragraph you referenced poverty, as have many other posters, as the underlying reason for BM incarceration and a myriad of other pathologies. I am not sure that poverty is the primary culprit for this problem. ”
It’s a very complex issue. I am the type to believe that the individual chooses to commit the crime so the blame lies with them. There are other influences but those influences do not force someone to commit a brutal crime (unless someone holds a gun to their head or threatens them with death). People who disagree with my point of view often say it’s due to generations of poverty and poor school systems. So I attribute some of it to poverty (but I don’t know if poor people in other countries commit so much crime and so much violent crime so one has to question why). Some will say that lack of marital family formation is due to poverty and wealthier people don’t have as many kids out of wedlock, who they can’t provide for, who live in poor and dangerous neighborhoods, who are too stressed with low paying jobs to parent etc.
I definitely don’t know the answer of the solution other than handing out life sentences for gang activity.
@shondi My snarkiness was not aimed at you and if you felt that it was I apologize.
You are correct, many people will assume that EVERY interracial violent crime was caused by racism — the “outraged” parties will change uniforms based upon the race of the victim.
I am an individual — I have no “people” other than my family — so I suppose that I have no team to root for.
You are correct, many racists are automatically assuming that Lane was killed because he was white. I see VERY little difference between that group of people and those who take the view that Martin was killed because he was black.
As of this date, neither has been proven to be a case of racially-motivated murder.
@FriendsofJay Of course Rush wants to talk about Trayvon, race, Jessie and Al. It is the easier conversation for a pro gun conservative to have. Smoke and mirrors people. Smoke and mirrors.
@Brenda55 @FriendsofJay Quick … look in that smokey mirror — that inanimate object is to blame!!!!!!
@Loake Me too.
@Neckelzgrl And most white people kill other white people no?
@Bellatrix79 @Neckelzgrl
Most white people WHO KILL, kill other white people. Most white and black people don’t kill anybody. Skin color shouldn’t divide us. Violent criminal behavior should divide us.
@LorMarie
As an AA man, it’s time to admit that there are serious problems among the AA male collective and it’s time to stop blaming everything else except AA men that commit crimes.
I pointed out the reasons for the problems and you just brushed them to the side. As an African-American man, I don’t have a criminal record because: (1) I was raised in a two parent home; (2) I have a postgraduate education; (3) I don’t drink alcohol or do drugs; and (4) I was raised in a middle class neighborhood.
Criminology is a legitimate study of sociology. The FBI has a profile for serial killers because someone took the time to study serial killers. I’m optimistic that we may someday prevent fewer children from becoming serial killers. For example, there is a myth that serial killers are white males. The racial make-up of known serial killers generally matches the racial diversification of the overall U.S. population.
I’m not making excuses. I simply understand that crime cannot be understood in a box. What if Antoinette Tuff had the attitude that the gunmen was just making excuses for his behavior? She and all those beautiful children would probably be dead. The subject is deeper than we are willing to admit.
@reem11 @LorMarie
Unfortunately most Americans agree with you. I don’t believe Americans will change their attitude until the problem is really out of control. Unfortunately, some of us will become victims to the “excuse” holding the gun in our face. We think living in a middle class neighborhood is going to keep us safe. We think owning a gun is going to keep us safe. The “excuse” is turning into wolf packs. The City of Chicago is a warning.
@500and50 @onmywayup What locations in Australia specifically would you recommend? Yesterday I started researching New Zealand but looks like it might be a bit difficult for me to get in there due to their immigration laws/points system. I’m also worried about how isolated people kept saying it is, but it’s still on my short list. Thanks!
But yeah, I need to get out of the States. I just don’t want to be here anymore. This is a country that was built on racist ideals and practices. It is intertwined with every aspect of this country. It is not being properly addressed and most likely never will be. Although I do not see race relations as getting worse (IMO they’ve always been abysmal), I also don’t see them getting any better.
It would be a dream to be able to date a man and spend time around people whose minds haven’t been poisoned by the toxic racist BS that is so prevalent and insidious here in the U.S. Don’t get me wrong; I know that wherever I go I’ll face racism and bigotry. But it still seems like people who did not grow up here still view race much differently than who did grow up here.
The truth is, it is up to every individual to have character and conviction regardless of the circumstance. None of us are guranteed to have access to the same opportunities as someone else. It is up to us to make do with the resources we have and turn it into somehing greater. If we always look at what we don’t have instead of what we do have then we mind as well throw all moral responsiblity out of the window.
:When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. ” 1 Corinthians 13:11
There are only three ways to reduce crime.
1. the criminal stops commiting crimes
2. more police
3. jobs
Why was Chris Lane even in this country on a baseball scholarship? Don’t they play cricket in Australia? And why was he out jogging by himself? Where was his girlfriend? And how do we know that he was just out jogging and not trying to score some drugs? And besides, aren’t all Aussies just a bunch of alcoholic brutes forever getting drunk and starting fights? Isn’t the world better off with one fewer in it?
Of course I’m being facetious, but those are precisely the kinds of things that places like Fox News were saying about Trayvon Martin. Two young men cut down in the prime of their lives. Lane was killed because a bunch of thugs — one black, one Hispanic, and one white (sorry Fox News, one of his killers was white) — decided that they were “bored” and it would be cool to just bang a random stranger. Martin died because some dude decided that he didn’t belong in his neighborhood.
The difference is that Chris Lane’s killers will never see the light of day ever again, or, if they do, they will be too old to enjoy it. Martin’s killer, on the other hand, is a free man who is basking in the glow of his celebrity status among those who believe that he did us all a favor by killing Trayvon Martin. Martin was portrayed by Fox and its ilk as the bad actor, and every negative thing in his background (as well as many negative things that were never in his background) was highlighted over and over again by the media. His killer’s sordid past (assault on an officer, domestic restraining order) was kept under wraps, and only those of us who took the time to go outside of the main stream– news media– bubble were able to find out about all the skeletons in George Zimmerman’s closet.
I am sure that Chris Lane was a nice guy, and I am just as sure that we will be hearing what a nice guy he was over and over again for the next few days. That’s fine with me. He was the victim here, and he deserves to be treated as such.
I only wish our hypocritical nation treated Trayvon, who was also a victim, the same.
@reem11 @DWB
Ummm… I didn’t say that black people are not guilty of prejudice. Good for you taking responsibility for yourself I do that too (that is what we are required to do as adults). I do my part, I volunteer, I don’t just sit behind a computer screen and argue about what is and what is not a problem in the BC (or any community for that matter). I also volunteer for the greater community that I live in too btw I have been doing volunteer work FOR EVERYONE since I was thirteen. I didn’t know I had to fulfill a volunteer quota.
For the record I DO NOT condone dysfunctional behavior of “my people” nor do I make excuses. but I am smart enough to know that it does not matter how much of a good person I am I will still get followed around stores and stopped by the cops for no reason. I am also smart enough to know that I cannot save everyone then again I never claimed or wanted to save everyone I do my part that’s all I can do.
I don’t know why you just generalized me and made me the representative of a whole race of people. All I know is I shouldn’t be made to feel guilty just because I belong to Big Brother’s and Big Sister’s, nor should I have to explain myself. If you agree with anything I have said fine If not that’s fine too.
@reem11 @DWB
Please understand that I am outraged when anyone is callously killed like Chris was. I am concerned about our country dissolving into destructive tit for tat. If I worded anything wrong or left a lot out I apologize.
For that to be avoided yes EVERYONE must take responsibility.
@The ArchAngel @reem11 @LorMarie Baltimore is eperiencing similar issues. Roving bands of teenagers committing random acts of violence. Assaults and robberies of cell phones/purses in better neighborhoods where they just pull up in a car jump out beat, steal, an run.
I believe a lot of it is gang related, initiations and such. How much of this do you think is inspired by social media and the desire to be known?
@The ArchAngel @LorMarie “I pointed out the reasons for the problems and you just brushed them to the side. As an African-American man, I don’t have a criminal record because: (1) I was raised in a two parent home; (2) I have a postgraduate education; (3) I don’t drink alcohol or do drugs; and (4) I was raised in a middle class neighborhood.”
Millions of men can’t check off all of these boxes, yet they do not murder and commit crimes. You don’t have a criminal record because you chose not to commit crimes and/or did not get convicted of them. Correlation is not causation. Poverty is not “the reason”…it is a large factor. The factors you stated do not doom someone to become or criminal or prevent someone from committing crime.
@The ArchAngel You left out location also. Teens that come from the inner city are more likely to get into the type of trouble that would land them in jail, call it up bringing or what ever you like but the kids from the inner cities seam to have less respect for other human beings in general no matter the race, color, creed just humans. I don’t know why this is but it is a personal observation.
@Blanc2 Truth telling here!
@BWC @reem11 @LorMarie
I believe a lot of it is gang related, initiations and such. How much of this do you think is inspired by social media and the desire to be known?
I think social media is a part of the problem. For example, I remember my step-father heard me listening to “some crazy rapper”. My step-father took the tape and destroyed it. Where would I be today if I didn’t have a man in the house as a role model? I love my mother, but she could not give me the guidance a boy needs to become a man.
Another example, I was misbehaving in school my 9th grade year. My step-father took me for a ride to the ghetto. He showed me where I would be living if I didn’t get an education. It was the first time I’ve been to the ghetto. It scared the Sh*&% out of me. The teachers had no more problems out of me.
Sure, social media is not helping, but having a man in the house cuts down on foolishness. I call it the “lord of the flies” effect. If you let boys run wild, we will turn into wolves. Today I’m a father, I’m going to do for my son what my step-father did for me.
@Toni_M @500and50 Most even handed commentaries posted! Well done Toni & 500and50
@Statuesque @LorMarie
Please share your explanation why men are going to prison. The majority of men in prison lack the things I listed. We can’t ignore the “correlation”. I acknowledge America is not willing to accept my explanation. But how bad do things have to get before we start asking serious questions?
@The ArchAngel @LorMarie
“Please share your explanation why men are going to prison.”
Because they commit crimes. In some cases they are innocent and wrongly convicted.
This isn’t some box-checking exercise. And you weren’t asking a question so much as concluding that factors outside of personal choice lead one to become a criminal. That is too deterministic to be the truth.
It is a correlation…unless you can explain why my uncles, raised by a single mother, in poverty, etc. etc. do not have criminal records? The odds were stacked against them, no doubt. Many in the same situation choose to commit crime, it’s true. But many. Do. Not. So the answer, if you are looking for “the” answer, can’t be that one.
Have to shake my head about those damning statistics. What can be done to address the violence perpetrated by young black men? Seems like a hopeless situation.
@Blanc2 Amen. I don’t believe Lane’s murder was racially based. I’m pretty sure that these three thugs would have shut anyone down who passed their way while they were “bored”. Kids like these don’t need access to guns.
If I commented I’d insult several people which brings me to the observation that not everyone is built for comprehensive conversation.
So now back to the subject. My condolences to the family of the victim.
It’s amazing how lost some individuals can be. It would be great to write an article that highlights ways, causes and contributing factors to criminal behavior but its not like this audience generally respects academic conversation that promotes solutions, nor do they think its their problem, nor do I think most of the BP’s who frequent this site think BC issues belong to them as individuals. I would love to write but sure wouldn’t waste my time. Back to mudslinging and talking past each other for snarf points…enjoy the thread.
Are people ready for whatever blood bath is coming…depends on what race you ask.
@Brice Cameron I think that’s part of the problem. Brice. Both sides accuse the other of looking for things on one side that aren’t looked for on the other. We have to get over the idea of race. We have to understand that we are all one race——-the human race. I mean REALLY get over it. This is 2013. The “I Have A Dream” speech was fifty years ago. I may be an idealist, but I’m not a wide eyed dreamer. If we want it, we have to work for it. Its not going to come easily. It must become a possible Impossibility. As long both sides keep picking at the other, we’ll never get anywhere. Finding prejudice should not become an occupation and a Ph.D. field of study. It will keep us apart forever and these ridiculous barriers will build into a gigantic wall. I don’t think any of us want that. Its one of those situations where they can’t help us unless we help them. But if it pleases both sides to keep up their guard and cross swords to the death, get ready for the eventual race war that will come.
@Lannie I stand corrected.
@FriendsofJay
Things have gotten better with regards to race relations and I think they will continue to get better. But I don’t think these racial problems will go away until long after we are dead, if ever. I don’t foresee any race wars. Just more of the same race battles.
No. This had made me very depressed; and yet another story out of Spokane , WA of a death of a WWII vet by one of these feral animals. That’s what they are IMO. They should be neutered and never allowed to reproduce. Who do we blame for this? Absentee dads or the mothers (most likely single) of these animals? Impoverished black youth is scary these days. I don’t have much hope for this particular generation. Death and jail seem to be the only options for them these days after they reek havoc on someone else’s life of course.
@Brice Cameron @Jamila @LorMarie @The ArchAngel So Jimmy Iovine and Lyer Cohen are to blame?
@uninterracial @Jamila @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
“So Jimmy Iovine and Lyer Cohen are to blame?”
Among many others.
LIke i said on the other thread, if a WM happnes to go out with you, he may have to carry a conceiled weapon, but just not shooting to kill…many BM don’t like BW going out with nbm,
there is also a guy in HOMELAND SECURITY who is a BM who is just as crazy, and is telling BM to get ready for a RACE WAR?!
is he KIDDING? since we are only 13% of the population? there is even more latins
thats for sure, unless he has a Married MOTHER & FATHER who happens to take him out on a range, and they shoot skeets together…
This is why what we are doing is so important. Blurring these lines that divide, with love, and friendship and family. I am sickened by what these animals did. There are no words. Lane didn’t need to look like my cousin, future son or rainbeau in order for me to feel the tragic loss of a promising young man who’d done nothing to deserve what happened to him.
@Statuesque “Lane didn’t need to look like my cousin…”
YES!!!!!!!!
I REMEMBER when the family has broken down, and it is just going to get worse:
the first generation simply wasnt as bad, because of the older people were around to give advice and wisdom, so even if the kids got on heroin or cocaine, people were there
the second generation had a few elderly, who at least knew right from wrong, but were at the tipping point
now THIS generation, the millenials, with all of the technology, and parents not knowing anything about the basics of technology, would give a kid a cellphone, and the kid will get in all of the PORN SITES before his 10th birthday, gang sites, drug sites, (there may not even be anymore children anywhere anymore)
i just notice many things happen in 3’s
its possible, that many of these parents are 45 yo TEENAGERS, ive heard that one before….
yep, with I-pods, many kids, even those under 14 could be listening to FILTH that the parent just cant hear. What has to happen, is the parents need to learn about modern technology, and how it affects the kids.
@Jamila @The ArchAngel Well Said!!
i never had to worry that much about racist white people–my stepdaughter had a boyfriend who for sure was one… but he was a PUNK…with no drivers licence and no job history to speak of (its a reason my daughter wont go with WM because of said stepdaughters choices, and although she seen some negro foolishness, she still prefers decent black and latino men)
THE only way you have to ‘worry about them’ is if they have power to hire you, or have a gun
I’ve even told a NAZI bype off a few times….what i mean, its not the racists per se, its if the racist are in power, and many may not be at all…
maybe, if they are some wW who are afraid you would get their man…? ..no, i dont think so..
zimmerman was PUMMELED by Martin… its just too bad, Z didn’t have a tazer to get him off–its unfortunante,,, because if i was pummeled, I would have shot too, but hoping not to KILL–this other boy, was shot from behind…
I think Education and Wisdom are NOT SYNONYMS… you could be educated and have an MBA but if you have no wisdom, it wouldn’t mean much
@zipporah Latino men can be either black or white.
@The ArchAngel @BWC @reem11 @LorMarie Yes. But how do we keep black fathers in a two parent home? Get them a job. How do we get them a job? Send them to school. Stop making selling drugs look so romantic. If they get an education they will feel good about themselves and be proud to be dads in a two parent household. Never having had kids I can tell you that was the one thing I really miss. I’m not sure I’d have been a good dad for boys (I had all sisters and know how to relate to girls), but I sure would have tried my damnedest. I don’t care for sports, but if my son were playing Little league I’d be there for every game cheering him on. That’s what dads do. I’d have loved it!
@tracyreneejones If anybody can do it Tracie, it would be you. I love your writing. If I can help, just let me know. I’d love to work on an article with you.
@oneofthegirls
Going to prison has more to do with money than race. The majority of people in prison are in there from guilty pleas. Having money to hire a good defense and expert witnesses reduces the chances of going to prison.
@Statuesque @LorMarie
Because they commit crimes.
Our criminal justice system has never accepted such explanation. A person can commit a crime and not be guilty because of insanity. The guilty mind “Mens rea” is always a factor in crimes. During the death penalty phase, the defense is allowed to introduce evidence about the person’s childhood to reduce punishment. Our Supreme Court has held that it’s unconstitutional to sentence children to death for “committing crimes”. Why? Because the issue is deeper than “because they commit crimes”.
In some cases they are innocent and wrongly convicted.
The majority of people are in prison on plea deals. Very few cases go to trial.
This isn’t some box-checking exercise.
More like chess.
It is a correlation…unless you can explain why my uncles, raised by a single mother, in poverty, etc. etc. do not have criminal records?
Because there are always exceptions to the rule, even in science. The reasons I listed will “reduce” crime.
So the answer, if you are looking for “the” answer, can’t be that one.
I was truly looking for an answer. You gave me the explanation I was expecting. America will one day have to deal with her wolves. The answer “because they commit crimes” will no longer be acceptable.
@The ArchAngel @LorMarie
“Our criminal justice system has never accepted such explanation. A person can commit a crime and not be guilty because of insanity. The guilty mind “Mens rea” is always a factor in crimes. During the death penalty phase, the defense is allowed to introduce evidence about the person’s childhood to reduce punishment. Our Supreme Court has held that it’s unconstitutional to sentence children to death for “committing crimes”. Why? Because the issue is deeper than “because they commit crimes”.”
This is a bit scattered. An action taken has to be defined as a crime first, and circumstances matter in how actions taken are defined and/or treated under the law. What does that have to do with the simple fact that men go to prison because they have committed a crime (really, been found guilty of a crime and sentenced to serve)? It accounts for it all. No one said all acts were crimes, or that anyone committing an act was treated equally before the law in every circumstance. Those facts are not relevant to the particular question.
You’ve gone from trying to put together a mechanistic formula for staying out of prison to philosophical issues of crime and punishment to U.S. sentencing procedures. This has nothing to do with the question you’ve said you want an answer to (why men go to prison), and everything to do with trying to locate the reasons outside of the individual behavior that brings a person into the system. It’s even more surprising because you seem to believe that not having a criminal record is as simple as having 2 parents, living in middle class neighborhoods, having a post-graduate education and avoiding drugs. There is no causal effect there, unless you have information that has eluded generations of philosophers, criminologists, cops, etc.?
The sleight of hand in stating “this is why I avoided prison” to “these factors are correlated with the reduction of (violent) crime” still does not provide a reason that explains why anyone commits a crime, let alone millions of people, or everyone…the rule, as it were. I could just as easily say that higher testosterone levels, poor impulse control and lack of empathy are the root causes for crime, none of which are resolved by temperance, marital status or income, but could be related to age, sex or brain chemistry.
The truth is that no one has the answer (cause), only correlations of varying strength or ability to predict outcomes for large populations. Frankly, I don’t know that anyone will require the answer in order to deal effectively with the problem.
@zipporah Curious to know the basis for your statement that Zimmerman was “pummeled” by Martin.
@Blanc2 @zipporah http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ap_george_zimmerman_kb_121204_wblog.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1079045!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg
@Brice Cameron @Jamila @LorMarie @The ArchAngel I’ve thought about it, and your right. They are partly to blame. All in the name of making more money for them. They don’t care about the impact that this garbage has on the youth. They are motivated by greed!!!!
@zipporah
I think what you’re referring to is an ‘educated fool’ 🙂
@DWB @zipporah I’ve seen those images dozens of times, as has the rest of the nation. But they don’t answer my question. Anybody who has been in a fight or two will tell you that these injuries are consistent with getting punched in the nose once or twice and falling on one’s head. Zimmerman’s eyes in the “nose shot” are fully lucid, even calm. This is not the face of a man who has been “pummeled”.
More to the point, this is the face of a man who receive a little well-deserved whuppass. Everybody knows this to be the case. But under even Florida’s generous self defense laws, getting a little whuppass is not an invitation to homicide.
Thus, I ask again, what is the basis for the statement that Zimmerman was “pummeled” by Martin?
@Blanc2 @zipporah Actually, I tend to agree with you — I think that GZ did get “a little well-deserved whuppass.”
He was pummeled.
Next question?
@DWB @zipporah I’ll recognize the issue of semantics. “Pummeled” can have a wide range of meanings. In my usage, a couple of punches in the face resulting in a bloody nose and a fall is not “pummeled”. If, in your usage, “pummeled” can mean a couple of punches in the face, then you could say Zimmerman was “pummeled”.
However, if that is your usage, then the original comment that began this thread — “zimmerman [sic] was PUMMELED by Martin” — interjected in a manner suggesting that Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin, is itself inapt.
This was the reason for my question. I was assuming that the comment implied a usage of “pummeled” more in line with the generally accepted usage, which refers to a prolonged and severe beating that results in severe physical injury. I was curious to know the basis upon which that statement was made. I gather there is no basis.
@Blanc2 @zipporah The dictionary definition of “pummeled” : strike repeatedly, typically with the fists.
I believe the term is fair to describe what happened.
There are only 2 people who know for sure what happened that night, sadly, one of them is dead. Personally, I believe, based upon the media of course as neither one of us was there, that Zimmerman should have been found guilty of manslaughter (or at least SOMETHING!!!) Martin contributed to his demise — if EITHER of them walked away, a young man would be alive today.
The only juror who I have heard speak — the black-Latin lady, stated she also believed going in that he Z was guilty, but when she studied the law, she could not in good conscience.
@Statuesque @LorMarie
You’re starting to contradict yourself. First, you said people commit crimes because “they commit crime.” Now, you are saying, “The truth is that no one has the answer (cause). . . .”
You fail to understand that the reason why people commit crime goes hand and hand with prevention, rehabilitation, or punishment. In my state, the government has established what we call “drug court”. Why? Because the government realized that some people commit crime because they are addicted to drugs. Once we understand why people commit crime, we can establish the proper prevention, rehabilitation, or punishment. Simply stating that people “commit crime” or “no one knows why” is not helping a growing problem in our society.
The U.S. has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world. The female prison has increased fivefold in two decades. I don’t think America can continue to turn a blind eye to this problem
Thanks for the discussion.
@DWB @zipporah You’re certainly free to your own private usage. Your usage is inconsistent with the common usage. A bloody nose is not “pummeled” in the common usage. The face of that white guy beaten for kissing his black wife (another post on this board) is an example of pummeled. “Beating the sh*t out” of somebody is a slang way of saying the same thing. In every photo of Zim I’ve seen from the night in question, his face is not the face of a man who had been pummeled.
Your resort to the “sadly one of them is dead” phrase, by now worn out and overused in this context, misses the point of the Zimmerman trial. More to the point, there was no direct evidence adduced at trial on this issue. The only possible source of direct evidence would have been Zimmerman’s testimony, but he elected not to testify. Thus, the case was based entirely on circumstantial evidence. I did follow the dailies (courts nowadays release daily transcripts of the evidence adduced in trials), not every day but many days, and thus I do know a bit more about this issue than what was reported in the media.
Based on the circumstantial evidence, the court (jury) had to conclude that Zimmerman was legally allowed to kill this young man. Even under Florida’s generous self defense laws, getting punched in the face a couple of times does not cross that threshold.
There is a good explanation for why the jury reached its result, but I lack the time or patience to get into that here. Sufficient to note that the evidence of Zimmerman’s injuries fails to support a finding that his use of deadly force was justified, and there was no direct evidence in the trial, at all, otherwise supporting this use of force.
@Blanc2 @zipporah Since all the defense had to do was present a basic case that Zimmerman “reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself,” the verdict is not all that unfathomable.
I am NOT a lawyer and can respect that others can come to a different conclusion, but it is in NO way cut and dry either way.
@Jenn Jenn @onmywayup It really depends on what kind of lifestyle you’re aiming for. A majority of our population is based in coastal cities, so we’re very beach oriented in lifestyle. If you’re looking for warm/tropical you can go to Queensland or the Northern Territory, more mediterranean and you’re looking at Sydney (New South Wales), and Perth (Western Australia) although we have very hot dry summers. Adelaide (South Australia) seems to cop it both ways weather wise – Hot summers, cold winters with the air coming in from the Southern Ocean/Antarctic. Tasmania is beautiful in the summer, with very long evenings, but gets quite cold in the winter. Melbourne has a good summer temperature, but gets quite cold as well I hear.
The main thing that will influence you more though is what you are looking to work in for a job. If you’ve got a degree in nursing, a doctor’s license or any kind of medical background you can usually make it in any city. We’re always looking for doctors and nurses. When it comes to other degrees or qualifications it kind of sorts you out to other regions. Engineering, mining operations, welding, electricians, anything to do with large equipment and you’re better suited to mining heavy areas of Western Australia or Queensland. If you’re more creative, then just about anywhere, but more likely places like Sydney or Melbourne, as you need a larger population to sell to, and people who are interested in art. Overall, depending on what you do will make a difference of where you’d like to settle.
As an aside, please don’t think we’re completely enlightened down here. We’ve got big problems with racism, especially how casually racist a lot of Australian’s are. It’s election season at the moment and the morons are being whipped up into a frenzy over issues with asylum seekers and general racist fervour. It’s not going to be everyone, and I sure as hell hope you never experience it if you come here, but just know it’s present. However, we are beginning to see the tide turn somewhat I hope, as more and more people call it out on social media, and a lot of people are publically shamed for their behaviour, and as such learn to change it. At least, I hope that is the case. It’s hard to know some days where we’re going.
If you need more information, just drop me a message here and I will be happy to give you what I know of. Think it all through before you decide to move, as it’s a big decision, but if you’re set on doing so, I say go for it 🙂 Cheers!
Sigh. It’s sad when any young life get’s taken for no good reason. He was just as full of potential as Trayvon. I don’t get this whole idea that we’re supposed to be happy when more white people die. If they were klansmen it’d be one thing, but white skin =/ racist. One time I read at Root that there were more white (non-Hispanic) deaths than births, thus signaling a possible decline. There were people who cheered in the comments section!
I’ll say this, while I don’t except everyone in the BC to be the pillars of moral character all the time (it would be nice some of the time though) I can’t help but think these boys ruined more than their own lives. Barring the grieving family and dead boy, they just added to the statics. My little brother who’s never so much as gotten detention might get lumped with these two for no reason save his skin. It sucks that I can’t do anything about that.
My condolences to his family and friends.
@Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
” It is not due simply to race, but looking at this specific case, how did economic disparities or the health care or education system cause these kids to murder”
And this is another part of the reason why it is so difficult to discuss cases like this–it’s hard to see the forest for the trees. It’s difficult to make a direct connection between environmental factors that make it more likely people will commit crime and specific crimes that are committed. Certain environments are more likely to create these types of criminals (I’m referring to the 3 boys) than other family backgrounds and other environments.
These kids are trees, but they sprouted in a forest.
@The ArchAngel @LorMarie
Hardly. The question was “why do MEN go to prison” not “why do people commit crime.” You are asking one question and trying to answer another, which is why your argument is all over the place.
What I understand very well is that prevention or reduction of either incarceration or violent crime/drug crime does not require knowing “the answer” or identifying what causes individual men or women to act outside of established laws, or to commit acts traditionally deemed criminal ones. You’ll be holding your breath, waiting for the Holy Grail that continues to elude humanity’s grasp scientifically, philosophically, socially etc,. People are complex, society is multidimensional, the environment is fluid. Science has more respect for reality and truth than that, but some scientists admittedly do not, usually because they are biased or pursuing a particular agenda.
You’re looking for solutions to a growing problem? Increase parental effectiveness, mitigate the effect of parental mistakes/poor judgment on kids, focus on nutrition and reduction of toxins so that you begin to help people make the right choices to begin with. Make committing criminal acts undesirable to most people. Allocate local resources in ways that allow people close to problems to deal with them. Most of all, stop looking for “your way” to be the only way or best way to deal with one of the hardest and most pervasive problems around, especially if there is evidence that it doesn’t work for everyone or lacks the level of explanatory power needed to be cited as “the cause.”
No contradiction at all in what I’ve been saying, but it was not clear that you were really soliciting solutions to the problem so much as trying to provide your reasons for why they are happening or not happening. I’m not interested in debating reasons I know don’t explain a lot or resolve what they need to. That’s not a good use of time IMO. I do appreciate the clarification and exchange.
IPad problems…sorry for the mishmash of text.
@DWB @Brenda55 @FriendsofJay
Only partially, they could have hit him with a rock but it probably wouldn’t be as effective. It’s a combination of guns that shouldn’t be in the hands of minors and poor parenting!
@FriendsofJay @The ArchAngel @BWC @reem11 @LorMarie
It’s going to start when young people have other influences (like jobs and a chance at a good education) rather than sitting home all day watching those vile rap videos and bored enough to join gangs to keep occupied. If corporations started employing people in this country again instead of farming all the jobs to third world countries for slave wages and increasing the over bloated under earned wealth of the rich!
@reem11 sounds like the movie “the purge”.
@Tiffanyku You are on a gas-lighting spree I see.
From the article:
“It should also be noted that a white teen was charged with being an accessory to Lane’s murder.”
She didn’t forget him. His picture is right up there. And if he had come up with the idea, he would have been charged with conspiracy to murder, rather than as an accessory.
I agree that this situation should not be pinned on race, it should be about gun violence and gun control. However, here you come again to try and give black criminals a pass because they’re black. How is that not pinning it all on race?
You basically sat there and LIED.
You can’t have it both ways: Either individuals commit crime for reasons that are not race related or being a black man means you’re going to be a criminal (and I can say firsthand that this is a damn lie, especially when said black men are born to black fathers who will put black foot to black behind if they even think about it).
All you said was, “Black men have no control over themselves because they are at the mercy of what society thinks they should be.”
I am REALLY tired of this excuse-making to the point I am ready to go on in on determined gas-lighters such as yourself.
@Tiffanyku Also, I notice you said NOTHING about black women and how crime affects us as both victims and perpetrators.
Everyone remember my comment down thread? Well, there you go.
@Tiffanyku What “societal pressure” caused them to murder a man with a bright future out of boredom?! Your statement makes absolutely NO SENSE! If that’s the case, then “societal pressure” must be behind serial killers and rapists killing and raping innocent victims. You see the logic?
@Tiffanyku to add: if you or someone in your family is/it becomes the victims of someone’s heinous crime against you (whatever it may be [knock on wood]), would you chalk it up to societal pressure upon them or selfishness, heartlessness and a blatant disregard for you as a fellow human being?
@Jamila @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel Chicken or egg?
Perhaps people who are MORE likely to be criminals or have children that become criminals create certain neighborhoods?
@Statuesque Bingo!
@Jamila Yes, thats what Im thinking now, too. At first glance he looks White. But the more I look at the pic he looks mixed
Punish them to the full stint of the law. Throw them in jail for commiting a crime. I think parents have to realize that you have to be involved in raising your children and not trying to be friends crap. Parents have an authourity. The Bible says train up the child in the way it should go and when it is old, it will not depart from it. You have the old school generation that gave instruction and whether you liked it or not, there was going to rewards for being obedient and consequences for disobedience. My friend has only one computer in the house and she make sure they are not visiting any dangereoue sites. Parents have to know who your children are around. My parents were not big on us staying the night unless they really knew the parents. Unfortunately that is how many children get intrododuced to drugs or young girls invite boys over and they experiment sexually because no parent is there to monitor behavior. Some parents are trying to be friends with their children and then when they have to put their foot down, the children laugh at them and think they are jokes because parents didn’t establish boundaries. When we were young, every summer we knew we had to work or be in some type of program becasue if we had to much time on our hands the saying an idle mind is the devil workshop. Also you had people who were watching you in the neighborhood and if you did something it was definitely going to get back to your parents. So we had people to keep an eye on us and so you didn’t do anything you wanted your parents to find out about. The famliy lost a son, brother. But society keeps paying for these criminals. Jail is an billion dollar industry so there is a lot more motivation to keep bodies in to keep money in the pockets of business at the expense of our youth and our future generation that is being sold down the river.
Pardon the typos. Proof read as much as possible.
@Tiffanyku Like a said below, my brother has not gotten so much as a detention. He’s under the same societal pressure, hears the same rappers in music, he hears the same pundits who judge him as a criminal for his skin tone. However, he is not a criminal. He’s never believed he was a criminal for a second. (My mom would smack that attitude right out of him.) Do not use ‘society’ as an excuse because the same ‘society’ can breed very different people. It can breed BM who choose to kill and BM who know it’s wrong.
@zipporah Girl………!! The ignorance is crazy…..
@DWB @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
“Perhaps people who are MORE likely to be criminals or have children that become criminals create certain neighborhoods?”
Then the solution to the problem is for society to being practicing eugenics. If some people are just biologically predisposed to criminality then the only solution to lowering crime levels or getting rid of certain types of criminals is to weed them out of the gene pool by encouraging the more genetically fit to reproduce and discouraging the genetically unfit from reproduction.
Would you suggest we go back to practicing eugenics? Sterilizing the unfit, forcing abortions on unfit mothers, giving vasectomies to unfit fit, do more genetic studies need to be performed using DNA from criminals so that we can find what makes them do the things they do?
What are your suggestions for getting rid of those who are more likely to commit crime and form dysfunctional neighborhoods?
@Jamila @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel Nice try.
Take a criminal out of society and he often remains a criminal in jail. Move him into a better neighbor and he still continues to act the way he did before and if enough of his friends come with him into that neighborhood — it begins to resemble the same neighborhood that he just left.
Human nature is bent towards doing wrong, yet most of the time, most of us refrain from major acts of theft and violence?
WHY?
What restrains them? Why are you and I not car thieves? Why do we not rape and murder? I have been to many segregated cities, and at night drive from poor white, to poor black to poor Latin neighborhoods and they all look quite alike.
Sadly, many people decide that their lives as they are are preferable to changing themselves and doing what is required to change their station — even just a little.
A hood does not kill his neighbor because he doesn’t have health insurance, was denied schooling or was denied a job.
They CHOSE to do what they did.
This out of control murder rate is due to the failure of black men. If you go to all of the black blogs, they bash black women for having kids out of wedlock. I would not have a child out of wedlock but they are here once they are born. Considering how many wealthy black men there are, they don’t do ANYTHING to help the situation with impoverish young black men. These black athletes, entertainers, and other wealthy men, need to gather and discuss ways to get control of these young men. Lots of them need love from an older man and they are not getting it. You notice that majority white communities are safe. White men protect their communities. Black men cant and wont. The only thing that wealthy black men do with their resources consistently is make women of other races wealthy. If crime started to rise in any major way in white communities, the national guard would be called on. It is funny how the oh so “masculine” black man cant protect black communities. I mean these wealthy black men with resources do absolutely NOTHING!
@DWB @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
“Nice try.
Take a criminal out of society and he often remains a criminal in jail.”
OK. Either you are unable to follow your own argument to its natural conclusion or you just don’t like that conclusion so you would prefer to dance around it.
So I’m going to help you by asking a few questions.
1. Do you think that YOU or I, or anyone chosen at random on this board, was just as likely to become a criminal as either of the 3 boys who killed Christopher Lane?
2. If some people chose crime, and some people don’t, and there are no external (environmental) or external (biological) factors that are correlative or predictive of criminality, they why have a discussion about crime at all, since there is nothing that can be done to predict who will commit crimes?
That was not at all off topic. It was just stating that if wealthy black men pulled together and used their resources, they could provide means to income to young black men. This could reduce the feelings of hopelessness and crime. In addition to that more black men coming together and figuring out a way to keep these men from commiting crime, there could possibly be a solution in sight.
@500and50 @onmywayup Thank you so much for this info! It’s very helpful! I work in a creative field so it looks like Sydney or Melbourne are it for me. It’s pretty much the same thing here in the states where I live. The closer I am to a big city, the more money/business/job opportunities I get.
I’m not looking to relocate for at least another 7-10 years so I have plenty of time to research and think about this. I see that wherever I go, it’s going to be a trade off. There are so many things I love about living in the U.S. and would really miss if I moved to another country. We are so privileged here! On the flip side, there are many things I can not stand about it (race issues that face POC only being one of them). However, as I said, it’s a trade off. I’d just be trading one set of privileges and problems for another set.
All that said, while I’m not quite set on moving permanently, I am set on at least visiting NZ and Australia for a few months to a year. I’ve always wanted to travel and live abroad. It’s on my bucket list. Right now my focus is on completing my education and setting up my business, as this looks like it’s going to be my only ticket into another country, according to immigration laws I’ve researched. Unless I can find a man to get me in! XD
I won’t bug you anymore because I’m taking this thread way off topic and I apologize for that. But thank you so much for this info! I might start poking you for more in the near future. 🙂
@Jamila @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel And what is my “natural conclusion?” And know that I do not approach criminal justice as rehabilitative, but focus on the protections of the rights of the victims (and believe that it should be geared to that and reparations.)
While I can of course only speak for myself, no, I do not suspect that many of us would turn to a life of crime. And again I ask, WHY? What do we tend to have in common that these 3 do not?
Go back to these segregated poor neighborhoods … black, white, Latin … what do THEY tend to have in common?
The family is the backbone of civilization, not the government, commerce or any other system. Marriage civilizes men, it tends to take the male energy and focuses it towards more productive endeavors.
It is complicated and there are no easy answers and all crime of course cannot be explained by family breakdown nor do people from strong families always avoid crime, but what we are discussing here is explained by it — for the most part.
@CAPT SMOOTH @FriendsofJay @The @BWC @reem11 @LorMarie Yes, but its soooo much cheaper to outsource jobs to other countries. Many other governments won’t permit that, but guess who does.
@Tiffanyku @Toni_M “Your vendetta against black men is not my problem”
Just because I don’t coddle black hoodlums does not mean I have a “vendetta” against black men. I find it telling that the only posts you are all up in are the ones calling out the DBR foolishness of a subset of black people.
Now, I stated quite plainly that black men born to black fathers who can be a positive influence on them will not lead them down a path to criminality. In other words, I said what you wrote was a LIE because I know first hand that 1) racism does not turn black men into criminals and 2) sensible, hard-working black men do not have time for hoodlums like these young men.
You tried to both say that these people should get a pass for being black AND that there was something else to blame other than being black. You. Can’t. Have. It. Both. Ways.
@Tiffanyku @Toni_M I also noticed that you completely ignored my point about acknowledging black women in the system and black women as perpetrators. You’re a sister soldier through and through. Ready to run to the rescue of men who would murder you, take your purse and keep going, but not a thing to say about black women victims.
Typical of the sad women who’d rather run behind damaged men and make excuses for them then think about their own lives, their sisters, their mothers, or their daughters.
I have a vendetta? Nope. It’s not that deep. You are just reading the words of someone who is not known for pulling punches on subjects like this.
@GoldenGirl8293 @Tiffanyku I think it’s funny because I’m reminded of my younger brother that still wants to rap and make videos, etc. How you gonna be “hard” when you’ve never been in trouble in your life, got a master’s degree and work for a major US bank?
He and my other brothers have DEFINITELY experienced racism and hardship. So have other black men before them. Generations of black people who were about something other than being criminals.
Being black doesn’t make you a criminal. Being poor does not make you a criminal. On’y being a criminal can make you a criminal.
People trying to split hairs make it very apparent what group of people they want to protect. And it’s not the upstanding African Americans…
@GoldenGirl8293 “One time I read at Root that there were more white (non-Hispanic) deaths than births, thus signaling a possible decline. There were people who cheered in the comments section!”
That is hateful. Some people cannot see past their hate. It’s sad.
@GoldenGirl8293 ” There were people who cheered in the comments section!”
That is just pathetic.
@Statuesque That’s how I felt when I first heard the news. A promising young man has left us in a senseless death. Condolences to his family.
We have to remain hopeful and keep working toward understanding. And yes, it will take effort among EVERYBODY! And prayer. But we cannot give up. We have to think of ALL OF THOSE WHO WILL FOLLOW US decades from now. And I won’t lie, its a mess that has been dropped in our laps, unfairly. Trust me, if I could go back in time and tell our “founding fathers’ to think about what may happen hundreds of years later, I certainly would. But, none of us can’t. So, lets try this. We are ALL human first and foremost. Everything else is low priority.
For me at least, it keeps me from putting race above God and from believing that I am better than anyone else.
I know this is weird, but, what else are we going to do as a Nation?
@Tiffanyku
” It’s societal pressures that keep them down. A black man comes into the world and society (including other black folks/rappers) tells him he’s a criminal even when he’s not, after a while he starts to believe it.”
Oh PULEEEEEEEEZE! So, young Black men have no self-determination. They can NEVER define themselves and their purpose and goals in life. They are automatons who simply respond to societal stiminli, rather like an amoeba. They have no spirit or free will as the Good Lord grants us all. They are entirely victims of . . . what? Being told they should be callous murders? Having no moral compass? Being shaped into criminals by whom? Their Mamma? Their church? Their school?
Don’t blame the prison system for locking up dangerous people. That is their job. If these young men had not taken it upon themselves to go out and murder innocent people who were going about their daily business, they would not be going to prison. They are a danger to EVERYONE, regardless of race. That’s why they belong in prison.
Get a grip. This isn’t about anyone but the perpetrators. Let’s lay the blame where it belongs, not at the feet of the system designed, however imperfectly, to protect us from people like them.
Down thread, I mentioned that If Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton spoke out against violence toward ALL young people regardless of color, it would go a long way toward making their words and their causes seem more about “we’re all in this together,” rather than only decrying violence against black men.
Look what I found on the net. My opinion of of Al Sharpton just went up. And I think it will go up with other too.
Do you think Reverend Al reads BEYOND BLACK AND WHITE? This blog really IS becoming really popular!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/08/24/sharpton_medgar_evers_did_not_die_for_you_to_have_the_right_to_be_a_thug.html
@DWB @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
“And what is my “natural conclusion?”
This”: I do not approach criminal justice as rehabilitative, but focus on the protections of the rights of the victims (and believe that it should be geared to that and reparations.)”
Basically, you have no interest in PREVENTION, only discussing crime after the fact.
@Jamila @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel I AM preventing crime — I’m trying to raise MY kids the right way, just as my parents did … and theirs before…
@DWB @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel
This isn’t a discussion about your parenting practices, since I’m assuming you didn’t raise any of the 3 young males who were arrested.
@Jamila @Brice Cameron @LorMarie @The ArchAngel I WAS talking about crime prevention — you know, the kind that actually works.
If you want to continue to believe that, almost 50 years into the “War on Poverty,” the answer is some government program, you can. And please, do NOT ask me to pay for it.
@FriendsofJay Al Sharpton doesn’t JUST focus on BM and during his shows he mentions gun violence in the urban areas, he mentions the women that are being killed by BM, he mentions Blacks needing to take charge of their communities and become involved. Most of information available about ________ is manipulated by the media. Local Black politics don’t make it to the national level, I listen to the urban news shows every Sunday so I hear more. Then I read and wonder why others aren’t aware of the things. I figure some folks don’t want to know because it goes against their belief that Al’s the absolute devil (not saying he’s an angel either). I listen to the Hour of Power (they mention a whole bunch of stuff) and Open Line which I started listening to as a kid and I’m very disappointed the station is trying to kill their show. Local politics are what matters most to the lives of individuals.
@tracyreneejonesThanks for this info, Tracye, If more white people heard Reverend Al talk like this it WOULD make a difference! Now if Jessie Jackson, Mr. Jealous, etc spoke like this also——and often——-we could make things happen and start to build a better B/W together-ship——I want more than us just tolerating each other.
I think some of you don’t understand that prevention helps “us” from becoming victims. What if we could have prevented Hadiya Pendleton from being murdered? What if we could “reduce” African-American women from being sexually assaulted? How much is Hadiya Pendleton’s life worth? The money we spend on prevention is the value of Hadiya’s life. The man who shot Hadiya was once a boy. I can assure you, if we look back at that boy’s life, the adults should have recognized he was heading towards a life of crime.
You can call my theory an “excuse”. The reality is labeling this problem an “excuse” does not help us. Tell your friends and family you love them. You never know when the “excuse” is going to take the life of someone you love or yours.
@Toni_M Well being poor doesn’t make you inherently a criminal but it does make you more prone to commit criminal acts. There are several statistics to support this also.
@uninterracial Well I mean we could try fixing up our American ghetto’s but I guess that’s to much to ask when we can spend billions weekly in wars overseas.
@FriendsofJay @Brice Cameron This “get over it” talk is easy to spew when you aren’t at the butt end of prejudice. There was clear assassination of Martins character using age old racial stereotypes.
There isn’t any attempt to the put the victim on trial in Chris Lane’s case. The issue here is people were all to ready to believe that Martin was likely a criminal and find it easy to do so because of their held fast beliefs.
@LorMarie @The ArchAngel I think saying “No more excuses” ignores the complexity of criminality. I think moving forward we’d do better to ignore generalities and attempt to examine what exactly causes people to go to such extremes.
@reem11 @500and50 @onmywayup Thank you so much! 🙂
http://thepoliticalfreakshow.us/post/59434525494/calm-down-about-christopher-lane-white-people
@FriendsofJay I think people forget that when the Trayvon Martin case first happened, it got very little coverage. It was because of social media and online petitions that mainstream media caught on. And people were outraged that Zimmerman was let off free.
Absolutely.
@Blanc2 The mainstream media is non cable big network news and the big internet blogs that draw from a large part of the internet userbase. As for Fox(which is part of the cable(less well known and less historical ))news , they were too busy trying to de-scramble NBC’s crap from the get go to even investigate anyone’s background. NBC ruined whatever legitimacy it had left when they changed the 911 tape recording and presented their doctored version as the actual tape to millions of viewers for days. Every media outlet except Fox had condemned George Zimmerman before anyone know anything about Zimmerman or Martin’s pasts or presents.
Also if you want to try to defend the disgraceful way the mainstream media tried to make Trayvon into a 12 year old kid right when the story picked up, be my guest on that.
@Brenda55 @FriendsofJay
What kind of moron isn’t pro gun in America?
You think Jessie and Al Sharpton are against guns?
@The ArchAngel @reem11 @LorMarie
Owning a gun that you are trained to use will certainly keep you safer than not having one, make no mistake about that.
@The ArchAngel @Statuesque @LorMarie
Women are going to prison a lot because they are becoming more and more violent due to new age feminist attitudes de-feminizing female teens and young adults, and the rapidly increasing cases of spousal abuse and murder of the female variety due to the double standards against men in those kinds of courts also set up by feminism.
@9Boots
Jobs do not reduce crimes. Plenty of people work just to be doing something and then go out and rob banks, it is not about poverty for most of them. More police would deter most sane criminals, but most sane people aren’t criminals anyway.
@Loake
The twitter posts one of the killers made seem to indicate it was racial.
@oygbyngb @Blanc2 I think you have your holidays mixed up! This is Labor Day not April Fools. FAUX News never gets anything right. I’ll place the last election reporting as exhibit A. The official network of the GOP lies and you believe it. NBC never doctored anything. Zimmerman is a murderer plain and simple and no less guilty than OJ. Just because a jury of racists and morons let him off is NOT vindication.
@oygbyngb @Brenda55 @FriendsofJay
Owning a weapon or two to protect your home is one thing. Stockpiling AK-47’s because your paranoid of the Gubment is lunacy. All the average home owner needs to protect his home is a shotgun and/or a handgun, both kept well out of reach and accessibility of children.
If you need anything more than that your just a piss poor shot.
@oygbyngb @The ArchAngel @reem11 @LorMarie
Wrong again. More deaths by handguns happen to innocent family members and the gun owners themselves that have no clue on how to handle a weapon than actually stops criminals invading your home!
@oygbyngb @The ArchAngel @Statuesque @LorMarie
Go back to your old excuse. The Easter bunny did it, with his accomplice Jack Frost. The clowns that want their woman at home barefoot an pregnant cooking their dinner while they are out raping and pillaging want to blame feminism on the ruining their chosen lifestyle.
@oygbyngb @9Boots
Man, your on quite the roll! It’s amazing that you can stop watching the liars of FOX long enough to post here!
You have a sliver of truth in your rambling, which is better than what you usually average. The lack of jobs is responsible for a portion of the violence (too much time on people’s hands) and so is bad parenting, and greed! It can’t be pinned down to one answer.
@LorMarie @Loake
If he has a white mother there is no “might be”! He is biracial period.
@oygbyngb
OK friend. I have been looking at your posts since you landed here and it looks like you are spoiling for a fight. I am not feeling it today and my guess no one else is either.
Step away from your keyboard, go outside and weather permitting throw something on the grill and chill.
I am shutting this thread down.
Have a nice holiday……..or not.