On DOMA: Are We Defending Marriage or Hate?

On DOMA: Are We Defending Marriage or Hate?

Does marriage really need defending? And, if so, from what? Other kinds of marriage, like maybe interracial marriage? Sounds a lot like hate to me…

Author : Jenn M. Jackson

Author's Website | Articles from

Recently, I had to have “the” talk with my four year old son. You know, the one where a parent has to explain that things or people who seem different from us on the surface are not really that different at all. My son had over heard someone saying that they had two moms. And his immediate response was “two moms? how weird!?!” Needless to say, we are working on removing the term “weird” from his vocabulary. But, his knee-jerk reaction really made me reflect on some of the reactions I have had to gay marriage and marriage rights in my lifetime. I started off totally ignorant, knowing very little about the subtle differences between civil unions and plain ol’ marriage. I had no clue of the difficulty LGBT folks had when seeking joint adoptions, burial rights, and a host of other things I take for granted in my heterosexual relationship. But, as I have gotten older and started a family of my own, I see things a bit differently now. And, it makes me wonder, what does “defense of marriage” really even mean? When President Clinton passed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996, what exactly was he seeking to defend?

DOMA is an interesting piece of legislation. It basically says that heterosexual marriage is the only legally recognizable “type” of marriage. And, even if individual states work to validate same-sex marriage within their own constitutions, DOMA directly undermines those efforts. So, what do heterosexual folks have to gain from denying equal rights to their same-sex peers? Well, nothing really. It doesn’t make my marriage any stronger knowing that someone can’t be with their husband or wife who is in a hospital room. It also doesn’t help me in anyway knowing that children in need of loving parents may not get adopted because of our aversion to homosexual relationships in this country. In essence, I get nothing except some false sense of superiority over people who’d like the chance to publicly profess their love for someone who feels the same way for them.

Instead, DOMA teaches LGBT husbands, wives, and family members that these relationships are shameful or less than. They are socialized to hate themselves and hide from the judgmental eyes of the larger public. Why? Well, because we hate them. We hate that they won’t simply behave like us, look like us, and be straight like us. We hate that they are different. We hate that they are “weird.” To placate same-sex couples, some states have offered civil unions. And, although California’s civil union laws are pretty similar to heterosexual marriage laws, many states still deny same-sex couples transfer of estate provisions in case a spouse passes away, personal possession benefits in the case of divorce, or even have mechanisms in place to guarantee that same-sex couples will get equal treatment to heterosexual couples when it comes to child-rearing. In many states, unwed heterosexual couples have more defined rights than wedded same-sex couples. So, who is really in need of defense here?

Everyday, when I walk outside with my perfect little brown family in our quaint suburban OC neighborhood with our two cars and “normal” lifestyle, I am keenly aware of how safe my relationship is. I have no concerns that people will look at me funny if I hold hands with my husband in public. And, when I stroll through the neighborhood grocery store, I am almost always greeted with a friendly “hi there, your family is so beautiful…” So, what exactly do I need to be defended from? To tell the truth, my brown hue is probably in more need of defense than my “normal” marriage.

In such clear terms, I was able to explain to my son that people are simply different, unique, or interesting. And, in explaining this to him, I realized that this country seems to struggle most with simply articulating these logically sound concepts in our federal and local policy. We teach our children that bullying is wrong all the while we socialize the subjugation of certain groups like women, minorities, the elderly, and LGBT citizens. We are shocked when children do harmful, tragic, or violent things to one another yet we normalize it for those groups we find to be “weird” and abnormal. Just a few years ago, interracial marriage was illegal in this country. It wasn’t until 1967 with the decision of Loving vs. Virginia that this archaic system of discrimination was finally overturned by the US Supreme Court. It suffices to say that interracial marriage was pretty “weird” back then. And, just like same-sex marriage today, a majority of Americans hated interracial couples too.

So, I ask the simple question, what are we defending: marriage or hate?

 

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OnTheFence 6 pts

This is a great piece and a very interesting view concerning DOMA, and does raise some questions as to how useful DOMA really is to society, if at all. Your son saying that two moms is 'weird' is in its own way true, it's not yet a common thing to see two women in a relationship, though it's your choice in how to deal with it. Though really it's mainstream culture that defines what is normative and what is not, and lesbian mothers just are not yet fitting into the norm. But I digress.

 

Hands down, DOMA is a problem for a great many reasons, but the perspective of marriage seems to be getting warped in this political battle. 'Marriage' is, technically, the religious ceremony in which a man and a woman are joined in a celebratory union, announcing mutual intention to be faithful to one another and to potentially produce children. Regardless of if that's how it operates in reality is a whole different can of worms, I'm simply saying that's how marriage is or perhaps more so, should be defined.

 

How, just how gay marriage is a threat to that is beyond my understanding. However with so much pressure to create a link between this heteronormative ritual and the LGBT community, it just seems to have molded into a new creature, a vicious one full of hate from both sides. DOMA sought to protect something considered sacred by religions and many peoples, yet instead I do believe planted the seeds of hatred in all those same people it tried to defend.

 

In my opinion, it comes down to this: who has the right to judge that a man and a man, or a woman and a woman cannot love or be with each other the same way a heterosexual married couple can be. However, look at it from the other side, who has the right to judge that religions based on a doctrine or belief that homosexuality is abnormal, and force on them ideologies that are not their own? In both cases, no one. When and if religions decide to change their ways and embrace gay marriage should be their decision. At the same time though, no one should be barring the love between two people.

 

For the longest time it's been my belief that one should treat others as one would like to be treated. If you do not wish to be imposed upon, do not impose yourself. That said, I also have this strange understanding that church is separated from state in the USA, so why is there this situation to begin with? If religions do not want to accept gay marriage, that is their business. But for a government to deny unions of people who want the same benefits and pitfalls that others receive? That's discrimination and cannot be, or at least should not be tolerated.

 

So if it were up to me, I wouldn't allow gays to marry in a religious sense unless that particular faith allowed it. And at the same time, the government would be obligated to perform a service, similar or not to that of religious ceremonies to give gay couples the same rights as straight couples. Calling each other husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, partners in life, domestic partners, love wranglers, or however else you'd like to put it, would be up to a registry system that would regard all partnership titles, by marriage or otherwise, to be treated equally. Perhaps I'm wrong, or simply idealistic, maybe just delusional or bitter, but I know that something here is terribly amiss on both sides of the fight. Is it such a crime to follow faith? And is it such a crime to love?

 

I'm a gay man with a long-term partner that I would love to marry, in a church, but I just can't bring myself to force people to bend their rules and their beliefs just for my sake. It's not to say I'm dispassionate about gay equality rights, I hope every day that DOMA will disappear and I will never step down from believing that I am a human being like any other, and just because I choose to love a man does not make me any lesser than I am. So if Christianity never accepts homosexuals, I'll be just as happy to rent a location and have a representative of the state do me the honors, just as happy that is, if DOMA is repealed and I can be allowed to have the same rights with my partner just like any heterosexual person does with theirs.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 OnTheFence

 Brilliantly and beautifully written. I could not agree more. Thanks for the comments:)

PastryPrincess 8 pts

As a lesbian woman, this post has really hit home with me. I am in a committed relationship with a woman, and we plan to marry ans begin a family in the next few years. Yes, I say marry, even though it cannot be in the legal sense being that I live in California. A marriage is when two adults love each other unconditionally and want to devote their lives to each other, period. I should not have to hide or feel ashamed for loving someone. I should be able to share medical benefits and raise a family unquestioned, a right granted to most Americans. This is a right, not a privilege. We are not miscreants, we do not lead a kinky lurid life, we are upstanding citizens, yet we must still live in fear and injustice in a  country that masquerades as being progressive.

 

In our homophobic, racist hateful society, it will be hard enough for my future children, this I know. I've never heard of mixed Black/Korean/Native American/Russian/Persian/Jewish/Christian kids having an easy time, no matter their parent's gender. We have already taken this into consideration. If we were straight, children of that background would still be treated better than children of lesbian parents. Their mothers being treated unequally by the law will trickle down and effect them. Some of people's biggest arguments about this is effects on children, so why would you cause more children to suffer? It is not their fault that their parents were genetically inclined towards something other than the social norm.

 

For that matter, it is not our fault that we are genetically inclined in this manner. I no more chose to be a lesbian than a straight person chooses to be straight. If they did choose, than that i another story and they are lying to themselves. Why would anyone chose to live a life made so difficult by society? My whole point is I deserve the same rights as any other American, and I should not be denied because of my sexual orientation. Yes, I deserve to be able to make medical decisions and care for my future wife without question. Yes, I deserve to have equal rights over my children, regardless if they share my genes or not. That is the equality afforded by marriage. As an American those should be rights afforded to me. 

JennMJack 1180 pts

 PastryPrincess Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for sharing. And, you are right, orientation has nothing to do with lurid behavior or inability to function as a responsible parent. And, the arguments against equality in marriage usually hinge upon these faulty assertions.

Penny 524 pts

I am truly tired of people saying that if you don't agree with them and their lifestyle then you "hate" them.

The author is quite right to train her child as she sees fit. However, she is out of line when she tries to imply that those who are against SSM (same-sex marriage) are haters. Orthodox Christianity teaches that marriage is between a man and a woman. You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. But in the same way you train your child to believe certain things, Orthodox Christians have the right to believe the teachings of the bible. The ultimate question is not who is right or wrong. The question boils down to whose values/morals will be the law of the land. If you disagree with the way I perceive marriage, may I then call you a Christian hater? Because the vitriol, name calling and animosity I hear coming out of the mouths of those in favor of SSM sure sounds hateful.

 

As for what do heterosexual gain with DOMA? In some ways the right to continue to believe as they do without being pressured to violate their conscience. SSM is not even the law in every state and already we have a Christian t-shirt vendor who was fined by the state  of Kentucky because he refused to print up shirts for a gay pride parade; a photographer in NY who was sued by a lesbian couple because she refused to do their wedding, a Vermont couple that was sued and is closing their Bed & Breakfast because they refuse to allow a same-sex wedding at their inn because it goes against their beliefs. The list is pretty damn long, I've only given you those off the top of my head. Discrimination against those who don't believe in SSM. Who'se being hateful now? Who is discriminating now.

 

I'm not here to argue in favor of heterosexual marriage. I am here to say you are sadly nieve if you think gay-marriage won't affect heterosexuals. And if I am a "hater" for not agreeing that gay marriage is okay, then you are "hater" for not agreeing that my religious beliefs are just as okay. For that matter, most people in most religions would be considered "haters" since gay marriage is a relatively new phenomenon and isn't recognized by most religions including Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and Orhtodox Judaism.

Penny 524 pts

Might I also add that if you think the push for gay marriage is about two people in love being allowed to live together then again you are mistaken. This is about economics. This is about being allowed to get partner benefits e.g. health insurance, etc. No one is stopping gay couples from living together. And civil unions give the couple the right to be each others health proxy (like a spouse), inherit property (like a spouse). The only thing civil unions don't do is allow a person to get his partner's job benefits.  So spare me the "why can't two people who love each other be allowed to commit their lives to each other" argument. 

dani-BBW 1784 pts

 Penny Real question. Do all states allow civil unions? Also, if you are in a civil union with someone, why shouldn't you be able to get your partner's job benefits -  I assume you mean something like pension payments? What is the rationale behind denying someone access to their partner's benefits?

JennMJack 1180 pts

 Penny So, let me start by saying that I am an 'Orthodox Christian.' And, I definitely don't hate myself. I have divorced my religious beliefs from my political beliefs because I believe in the separation of church and state.

 

I don't advocate vitriol or name calling on either side. But, the argument has nothing to do with agreement. I don't think one has to agree with someone to advocate for their right to have their perspective.

 

To be clear, civil unions are not identical to marriage. And, many states do not allow civil unions. And to say that anyone's marriage is not about love, to me, is laughable. Everyday, we watch stories on ET and Access Hollywood about Kim Kardashian or Britney Spears making a total mockery of marriage. But, when same-sex couples ask for the right we point to money?

 

I think your argument is extremely callous.

iHeartLove 804 pts

Divorce is the biggest threat to marriage, not gay marriage which once it becomes lawful (and it will one day) will just be marriage, no qualifiers or descriptors.

iHeartLove 804 pts

People don't want gay marriage because marriage and family brings power, opportunity, wealth, and legitimacy in society. 

 

A family unit is incredibly powerful. 

JennMJack 1180 pts

 iHeartLove Agreed. I also think there are dubious motives behind denying LGBT folks the right to marry.

tracyreneejones 3538 pts

* patiently waits on the intertwined religious patriotic argument shoe to drop*

 

Girl, you're brave....let's see how you maneuver this gay + marriage+ equality+ American conversation among people who feel their heterosexual 'normalness' obligates them to receive marriage and equal civil treatment.  I honestly think some people feel 'if I can't have a happy marriage and civil treatment then the gays can't either'!! Its the totem pole of lack stopping people from using equality as a noun that turns into an action word. 

JennMJack 1180 pts

 tracyreneejones Deep Tracy. I guess for me it is so very simple. There is all this nastiness where folks want to compare gay marriage to pedophilia, beastiality, and a host of other shenanigans. It really is a baseless argument though.

AshleyFisher 390 pts

I still laugh when people view a Christian marriage as traditional. It was banned for quite a while by the catholics and protestants. But if you wanna live in a bubble go right a head, I plan on being single forever anyway. And I agree with Dani. If I don't want to be married why the hell do I have to go through so much trouble to have someone do the stuff for me that my partner has all right to. Especially when the other person is blood. Like seriously. That is just fucking ridiculous. 

JennMJack 1180 pts

 AshleyFisher Good point. And, I agree. People should be able to choose how their estate is divided and how they plan to divvy their possessions in case of hospitalization.

 

But, what about folks who do want to be married? Shouldn't they get the exact same choices regardless of orientation?

AshleyFisher 390 pts

 JennMJack Of course I think they should. I'm bi-sexual. That would be some serious self hate right there. I believe think it's laughable about defending marriage in general though. That is what I'm rolling my eyes at. It's reasons like this that we have to separate church and state seeing as using your religious reasons for discrimination is not a humanist thing to do at all. 

AshleyFisher 390 pts

 JennMJack wow my first sentence is a grammatical mess. I meant to say I think it's laughable about defending marriage in the first place. Oh that grammatical error is gonna haunt me for a while. 

dani-BBW 1784 pts

I think the best solution is everyone gets ONE person they can bestow rights upon, such as adding someone to your medical insurance, filing taxes with him or her, allowing that person to make your medical decisions if need be, funeral planning rights, etc. Conflating the rights issue with the morality of marriage or haze of romantic relationships is a waste of time, as the latter situations are irrelevant. Current laws are also unfair to single people. What if I'm single but I want to put my mother on my health insurance? Or I want my adult son to have the ability to make medical/death decisions for me if need be, without having to create a bunch of legal documents or sign a power of attorney (which isn't necessary yet)?

 

Why - in many places - are only heterosexual, married people granted the ability to easily do these things? I say just make a legal status that grants the rights to two people to do all of the above. The rights need to be decoupled from the romantic aspect.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 dani-BBW Agreed. Decoupling property rights from romantic ties is brilliant. But, how does that address biases in adoption? or other child-rearing decisions? The truth is, traditional marriage is seen as the only type of "real" marriage so no one has even bothered to define what rights look like for other groups. Its not like LGBT folks are going to simply disappear if we shut our eyes really tightly. So, shouldn't we make a genuine effort to address their needs too?

dani-BBW 1784 pts

 JennMJack I actually had a childhood friend who, along with her siblings, was adopted by her two elderly great-aunts. To me, it's the same situation. You get one person you can bestow legal rights upon - adopt a child with, file taxes with, etc. Why do I have to be in a *romantic* relationship with someone in order to adopt and raise a child? What if I want to raise children with a sibling?

 

I advocate for decoupling all of this from romantic relationships, because at the rate culture is evolving, the law cannot keep up with (and try to accommodate) all of the ever changing romantic situations and gender identities that occur. For example, Lana Wachowski. He divorced his wife, got a sex change and became a woman, and then married a different woman. Australia now recognizes gender "X." Are people of that gender in same-sex or opposite sex marriages?? I've even seen adult incest movements, where consenting adults who are related want to get married. 

 

It is going to be a mess trying to accommodate each and every "new" group of consenting adults who want their romantic relationships legally recognized so that they may obtain the legal rights referenced above. Furthermore, it is discriminatory against people who want those same rights but are not in romantic relationships. The qualifier I would put is that you have to demonstrate longevity in the relationship, to prevent frivolous abuses of the legal classification. Also, maybe you couldn't dissolve it for 10 years or something. 

 

One day, I'm gonna run for office, LOL. My friends keep telling me I should.

zipporah 1714 pts

I think so...now. I'm starting to see that marriage is either between one man and one woman or it could explode into POLYGAMY. There is a movement NOW about mansharing. I even seen a book for women in the local library talking about SISTERWIVES. Yes, sometimes lesbians could raise kids as good as a regular couple but the diffference between that and polygamy  IMO is the missing man. I knew a few homosexual couples that DONT Want marriage--just domestic partners rights.

 

I dont want to make waves but years ago, the purple triangle was the symbol of the LGBT groups even in the late 60s. They got the 'rainbow' IMO from the mixed kids/families; especially between blacks and whites. The other thread on here about mixed kids looking ligher and Kola Boof getting upset about Soledad O'Brian--she just doesnt know many mixed families: Soledad could HAVE A SISTER from the same two parents that looks like Kola--

 

PastryPrincess 8 pts

 zipporah How exactly is a relationship of two women like polygamy without the man? I really don't understand what you mean by that, and that can be considered quite insulting.

Marriage....if you honestly are asking....  

 

Unfortunately it is those who support same sex "marriages" that bring up "hate" and the reason they do so is patently obvious.

 

Perhaps the most interesting point to be made is that your son had it right, same sex marriages are "weird" and he knew it intuitively.  

 

My comment is sure to be viewed as "hateful" by some who will proceed, if past experience is any guide, to provide evidence that the reality is quite different.

 

The main problem lies in how the issue has been framed as one of individual rights when nothing can be further from the truth.  Defending the institution of "traditional" marriage is nothing less than a last desperate attempt to ensure the nation's future viability.  The irony of African Americans supporting the destruction of an institution which at one time they supported unequivocally and viewed as something which was important to their very identity cannot be over stated.

 

Thanks...and just to be clear....supporting traditional marriage has nothing to do with "hating" gays.

JennMJack 1180 pts

I am not following the argument here. What is so obviously the reason why I think DOMA is hateful? Additionally, banning marriage for same-sex couples doesn't change folks' orientation so what exactly does this do for our "nation's viability?"

 

Nevermind. You honestly seem troll-ish cause you really didn't say anything in your post.

 JennMJack Actually, I was suggesting you would designate my comment and/or position as "hateful".  Perhaps trollish is close enough?

 

As to your question regarding what it does for our "nation's viability"?  zipporah touched on one of the problems in that there is absolutely no reason to continue to ban polygamy.  Not only is there much more historical support for polygamy, but it continues to be practiced in various places around the world.  That being said, combine same sex marriage with polygamy and what have you got?  Think about it.

 

Secondly, marriage, from a legal and societal point of view, has nothing to do with two people loving each other and committing to spend their lives together.

 

Thirdly, pushing for same sex marriages has nothing to do with love and affection and everything to do with getting on the gravy train of whatever benefits one can pry from other tax payers.  Once again, the "marriage benefits" are all about aiding and supporting those who have children, not to give two, or more, able bodied individuals some kind of step up simply because they decide to tie the knot.

 

Isn't it a bit ironic that as marriage comes under attack, one of the tools being used is advocating and supporting the notion of same sex marriage.

 

Frankly, when commenting I'm not really interested in writing a book, but I'll certainly try to meet your standards in the future.

 

Brenda55 19404 pts moderator

 I do not find your post trollish however I do not agree with them.  I am sure that some of the same arguments that you are making were made when it came to interracial marriage.

 

This is the "slippery slope" argument.  I do not believe that the grand old institutions of marriage is under attack  and I certainly do not see gay as any threat to it. 

 

Oh and go ahead and write a book if you choose to.  We like folks who can clearly and respectfully get their points across. Makes for a much more interesting discussion.  Welcome to the blog.

 Brenda55 Thanks for the welcome.   Out of curiosity, which of my points applied to interracial marriage?

 

As far as your apparent dismissal of the slippery slope argument... Why do you think it exists?  Saying it is one, doesn't really argue against its validity.

 

You suggest you don't see "gay as any threat to it" which, no offense, hardly seems like much of an argument.

 

Not a book, but maybe a chapter...

JennMJack 1180 pts

So, I guess I can actually see your point now even though it seems really out of sync with the core argument of the post. The article is about DOMA, a federally established regulation against any form of marriage outside of heterosexual marriage (I don't think it is necessarily traditional). I support heterosexual marriage and I also support all marriage.

 

I find it hateful when we tell one group that their marriage is "weird." But we somehow expect our children to grow to respect folks' differences. How does that work?

 

Here is the issue with this. Outlawing marriage won't make people straight. And, it won't keep people from being with whomever, how many times over, as they please. So, If you are insinuating that we will become a nation of gay polygamists and suddenly the American nationality will simply disappear, doesn't that seem a bit confounding?

Brenda55 19404 pts moderator

 @Aaron

 "Defending the institution of "traditional" marriage is nothing less than a last desperate attempt to ensure the nation's future viability."


That was the sentence I was referring to. 

 

 JennMJack If my tone comes across as anything but interested I'll have to apologize in advance, but here's my take.

 

First, perhaps I'm simply missing the core argument, but I don't think so.  I do not support same sex marriages as a legally recognized societal institution.  This would certainly suggest that I support the DOMA and don't even recognize, much less support using the term "all marriage".

 

"I find it hateful when we tell one group that their marriage is "weird.""

 

Yes you do, and I disagree.  As previously alluded to, how far are you willing to go?  How about the marriage of a 50 year old man to a 5 year old child..regardless of gender?  Still not inclined to make a judgement?

 

"But we somehow expect our children to grow to respect folks' differences."

 

Not always, and for good reason.

 

"How does that work?"

 

Well, in two ways, depending on the circumstances....

 

1.  If it is simply a matter of preference or a different way of doing things, one might simply point that out.

 

2.  Explain right and wrong and that people have the right to do as they wish in the privacy of their own home.

 

i'm going to point out here a rather unpopular notion...All societies are defined by what that do not tolerate, as well as what they tolerate.

 

"Here is the issue with this. Outlawing marriage won't make people straight."

 

So what?  I don't expect it to.  I'm not the one conflating the issue of gay marriages with "hating" or liking gays.  If you think about it, that's you.

 

"And, it won't keep people from being with whomever, how many times over, as they please."

 

Once again, I don't really see the relevance.  I don't even care if the Church of Gay Marriages decides to perform some ceremony ties to people of the same sex together..that's between them and their congregation.  Obviously this would also extend to every other form of marriage as well.

 

"So, If you are insinuating that we will become a nation of gay polygamists and suddenly the American nationality will simply disappear, doesn't that seem a bit confounding?"

 

Not at all.  No offense, but do you not see what's happened to the institution over the last 50 years?  Treading on even thinner ice, do you see those changes as good for America and, in particular, the African American Community?

 

 Brenda55  Aaron Ok...but I would suggest that your interpretation might be a bit shallow.

 

The question is why I would say such a thing...and whether the same underlying reasons apply.

 

Thanks.

Brenda55 19404 pts moderator

 Aaron 

 

"Ok...but I would suggest that your interpretation might be a bit shallow."

 

Fair enough.

"The question is why I would say such a thing...and whether the same underlying reasons apply."

 

I cannot answer that question. I do not know you. You are but typed words on a monitor as am I.  Seems we have a point for respectful discussion.

JennMJack 1180 pts

On your first point, I understand that you support DOMA.

 

On your second point, how is consenting adult marriage (of any kind) the same as the forced sexual relationship between a 50 year old male and a 5 year old child? Please explain that point while clearly articulating how members of same-sex couples are similar to a) a pedophile or b) an un-consenting five year old who hasn't the presence of mind to make adult decisions. Additionally, please outline the part of this discussion that advocates lowering the legal age for sexual relationships or marriage. Because no one here is touting statutory rape to my knowledge.

 

On your third point, what differences do we teach our children not to respect? Crime? Criminality (like your pedophilia example above) is not a difference. Being gay is not a crime. It is unsavory to some but still, not a crime. We teach our children that making fun of the obese is bullying. And we make concessions for smokers. We have accommodations for different religious sects in our society and we protect them from the encroachment of our own personal faiths/atheisms. Though some find these things distasteful, we neither outlaw them nor have federal policy against them. So, why is gay marriage any different?

 

On your fourth point, I am not conflating anti-gay attitudes with hate. Calling someone "weird" and seeking to treat them unjustly in the eyes of the law is a form of hate. It is a form of loathing, detestation, abhorrence, or revilement. These are synonyms for hate.

 

On your fifth point, I am not going to argue about whether or not being gay is right or wrong. And, saying that we should teach our children that folks can do things differently or in the privacy of their own homes further underscores my point. LGBT folks should not be forced to stay in the privacy of their own homes simply because society does not like them. There is no logical way to teach this to a child without teaching them that a PERSON is wrong as opposed to a BEHAVIOR. I can teach my son biblical principles without teaching him to hate folks that don't necessarily follow all of those principles.

 

Lastly, I see no issues with the "institution" of marriage over the past 50 years except that more people (who should have initially had the right to) received the right to be married while those who had the right all along squander it with divorce and a lack of respect for marriage vows. This has nothing to do with the black community and only to do with socio-political freedom.

 

Let's be frank and clear out all of the nebulous religious hang-up debris and speak bluntly. Marriage is a right. Everyone does not have that right. And, those who argue that this is okay have little depth in their argument but obtuse comparisons and murky rhetoric. These are the same tactics that were used when the South wanted to hold on to the institution of slavery. They were concerned that the blacks would rise up and take over the country. And, American citizenship would be stained with the vile presence of the darky. Whites thought that black men would impregnate all the white women with "half-breeds" and the white race would no longer be pure. To fight this, they instituted Jim Crow. This is exactly what is happening to the LGBT community today. They are marked with scarlet letters as if they are unwanted, dirty, and less-American than straight people. They struggle with loving themselves because society tells them that they are unimportant. They hide because the country they love does not love them back. This is not conflating. This is called reality.

 

This is not about what the majority would like to force on the minority (the fundamental ingredient in hate and discrimination). This is about "liberty and justice for all." We speak out of both sides of our mouths and expect to deliver a cogent message. It is impossible to do so.

 

 

 Brenda55  Aaron 

"Seems we have a point for respectful discussion."

 

Well, that is certainly nice to hear.

 

Having said that, the point being that as you have now acknowledged you can't answer the question and yet originally you claimed that my statement applied equally to gay marriage now and interracial marriages then.  See what I mean?

 

Thanks.

JennMJack

“On your first point, I understand that you support DOMA.”

 

Great, let me thank you in advance for providing your thought below and allowing me the opportunity to respond.  I am, of course, very aware that this particular forum is not really meant for me, but I’m afraid that I sometimes have problems resisting two related temptations.  First, I am always curious about how others think and feel, and second, no matter how much I try, I simply cannot stop myself from eventually joining in.

In any event….

 

“On your second point, how is consenting adult marriage (of any kind) the same as the forced sexual relationship between a 50 year old male and a 5 year old child? Please explain that point while clearly articulating how members of same-sex couples are similar to a) a pedophile or b) an un-consenting five year old who hasn't the presence of mind to make adult decisions. Additionally, please outline the part of this discussion that advocates lowering the legal age for sexual relationships or marriage. Because no one here is touting statutory rape to my knowledge.”

 

I’m afraid those are not the right questions.  Your entire argument is based on the fact that you can’t call me weird nor can you judge me based on your personal moral or ethical beliefs….and yet, here you are, making those very judgments and suggesting that your views are right, and my views are wrong.  Aren’t you suggesting that if your son came to you asking about the 50 year old male being married to the 5 year old child that you would agree with him that it’s not only weird, but disgusting?  Let’s remember that there are cultures which do recognize such marriages.  Again, are you suggesting that you would teach your son not to respect their beliefs and culture? 

 

 “On your third point, what differences do we teach our children not to respect? Crime? Criminality (like your pedophilia example above) is not a difference. Being gay is not a crime. It is unsavory to some but still, not a crime. We teach our children that making fun of the obese is bullying. And we make concessions for smokers. We have accommodations for different religious sects in our society and we protect them from the encroachment of our own personal faiths/atheisms. Though some find these things distasteful, we neither outlaw them nor have federal policy against them. So, why is gay marriage any different?”

 

See my answer above.  You seem to feel that “respecting others” means “as long as their beliefs agree with mine”.  Interesting.  So, as long as I accept your rules you will respect me?  Seems to me that you are being quite inconsistent.

 

““On your fourth point, I am not conflating anti-gay attitudes with hate. Calling someone "weird" and seeking to treat them unjustly in the eyes of the law is a form of hate. It is a form of loathing, detestation, abhorrence, or revilement. These are synonyms for hate.”

 

What can I say in response to a statement which contradicts itself?  How seriously would you take me if I claimed that I was not writing this sentence in English? 

 

“On your fifth point, I am not going to argue about whether or not being gay is right or wrong. And, saying that we should teach our children that folks can do things differently or in the privacy of their own homes further underscores my point. LGBT folks should not be forced to stay in the privacy of their own homes simply because society does not like them. There is no logical way to teach this to a child without teaching them that a PERSON is wrong as opposed to a BEHAVIOR. I can teach my son biblical principles without teaching him to hate folks that don't necessarily follow all of those principles.”

 

I’m afraid you are making the same argument over and over.  See my original response to the same points.  In addition, I’m afraid that you are once again making fallacious comparisons as well as drawing erroneous conclusions.  Haven’t you already admitted that you find certain behavior repugnant and will teach your son to avoid such people?

 

“Lastly, I see no issues with the "institution" of marriage over the past 50 years except that more people (who should have initially had the right to) received the right to be married while those who had the right all along squander it with divorce and a lack of respect for marriage vows. This has nothing to do with the black community and only to do with socio-political freedom.”

 

I could provide a longer response, but let’s take a quick look at what you said.

You see no issues and yet you do.  You blame socio-political freedom except that you wish to continue to follow the same path.  Perhaps you need to take the time to think things through?

 

 

“Let's be frank and clear out all of the nebulous religious hang-up debris and speak bluntly.”

 

Great, my opposition to same sex marriage has nothing to do with religion.

 

“Marriage is a right.”

 

 

Whoops, here's the second part of my response....

 

Really?  Honestly, that’s not even the point, but where is it written that the act of marriage is either a right or one that must be recognized legally?  Moving on, if it is a right, what right do you have to restrict it based on your personal definitions and feelings?

 

“Everyone does not have that right.“

 

Agreed.

 

“And, those who argue that this is okay have little depth in their argument but obtuse comparisons and murky rhetoric. “

 

I’m afraid that, according to your statement, you will have to include yourself in that number.

 

“These are the same tactics that were used when the South wanted to hold on to the institution of slavery. They were concerned that the blacks would rise up and take over the country.“

 

Maybe, maybe not, but it’s really irrelevant to the case at hand.  If you are a member of the Armed Forces and your side and their side use the same tactics are you suggesting that the fact that they are both using the same tactics on the battlefield means that both sides are actually allies?

 

“And, American citizenship would be stained with the vile presence of the darky. Whites thought that black men would impregnate all the white women with "half-breeds" and the white race would no longer be pure. To fight this, they instituted Jim Crow. This is exactly what is happening to the LGBT community today. They are marked with scarlet letters as if they are unwanted, dirty, and less-American than straight people. They struggle with loving themselves because society tells them that they are unimportant. They hide because the country they love does not love them back. This is not conflating. This is called reality.”

 

Actually, no, it’s not called reality, but I’m afraid that I don’t really see this discussion doing much to change your mind.

 

“This is not about what the majority would like to force on the minority (the fundamental ingredient in hate and discrimination).“

 

Well, no, actually what this is about is what the minority would like to force on the majority.  I’ve already discussed your unfortunate tendency to equate disagreement with hate.

 

“This is about "liberty and justice for all." We speak out of both sides of our mouths and expect to deliver a cogent message. It is impossible to do so.”

 

I’m afraid I am still waiting for evidence of that cogent message which you seem to be claiming for yourself.

 

Thanks again.  Not really sure if much more can be said, but I appreciate your willingness to share this forum.

 

 Brenda55  Aaron I actually responded to your comment first, and previously.  Don't know where it went and maybe it will turn up but I don't want you to feel I simply ignored you.  Short version.

 

"Seems we have a point for respectful discussion."

 

Can't think of anything nicer to say.

 

JennMJack 1180 pts

Okay, so, I can't continue in this conversation if we are not going to stay grounded. DOMA is a federal policy in the US. It has nothing to do with foreign cultures. If we are not going to debate within the bounds of logic, I will no longer participate. If you do not answer any of my questions without using another question to do so, I will disengage.

 

I do not care to circle the issue with you. Please provide real feedback or understand that I won't spend any more time on the comment.

 

I would really like to have a coherent discussion but this is getting exasperating. Have a great day.

 JennMJack "I do not care to circle the issue with you. Please provide real feedback or understand that I won't spend any more time on the comment."

 

Beat you to it....:)

 

"I’m afraid I am still waiting for evidence of that cogent message which you seem to be claiming for yourself.

 

Thanks again.  Not really sure if much more can be said, but I appreciate your willingness to share this forum."

 

The actual point is that I have responded with logic and provided evidence that your argument is inconsistent.  I have also already agreed that we may have reached a bit of an impasse while also thanking you for allowing me to present my point of view.

 

I've actually learned quite a bit from reading various articles here on Beyond Black & White and I have to admit that I may even have gained more insight from the comments.

 

I'll really do plan on limiting my participation (no promises now) primarily based on my understanding of my minority status and decision to remain a "guest".  What can I say?  I always appreciate the chance to learn something new, particularly when it has to do with engaging with someone who views things quite differently.  

 

Thanks again, I can only hope that this discussion has been as valuable to you as it has been to me.

 

 

JennMJack 1180 pts

Just to make this crystal clear, my response to you was not because of your perceived minority status. Nothing I have said is about you personally but about the ideas you have presented.

 

I am happy for you and your learning while on the site. But, i suggest that you stop by the rules and terms prior to posting again. Comparing a group of people to pedophiles and rapists is in direct discord with the guidelines set forth by the site administrator. Additionally, the point of the comments section is to discuss the topic not your opinion of the subjects (LGBT people) or the author (since you apparently believe I am on an opposing side as yourself).

 

See below and have a Merry Christmas.

 

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