From an “Insider”: What the Planned Parenthood and Komen Micro-Split Means to the Future of Women’s Health

MadamCJCPA

You said a mouthful! And I agree!

MadamCJCPA

Here's the thing. Say Roe V Wade is overturned. Is anyone naive enough to think that this act will end abortion in America?

Of course it won't end abortion. It will just end legalized abortion. Just look at country like Ireland where abortion is illegal. The women who can afford it fly to England to get the deed done. Something similar will happen here with clinics sprouting along the Canada and Mexican borders or and in the Islands to service women with the assets to get what they want.

Also if a women wants the procedure done in a hospital here in the states all it would take is some "creative documentation" on the part of doctors to justify having the procedure done.

In The USA we will return to the good old days of back ally abortions for poor women,most of whom are minority.

How would you anti Roe supporters like to return to this?

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/abortion-dr.-kermit-gosnell-arrested

This monster ran a legal operation. This is what back ally and lack of over-site means poor women are maimed and they die.

The emphasis should be on making the need for abortion rare and not on overturning some law. Prevention. Adoption. Counseling and support for women who find themselves in a tough situation. That is too much like right however.

Brenda55 I, also, am pro-choice. It is not my right, my job or my privilege to tell another woman what to do with her body. You are correct. Outlawing abortion will not stop it just like outlawing prostitution has not stopped it nor has outlawing drugs. My mother (also pro-choice) had a conversation with her Catholic, pro-life neighbor who was ranting about anyone who gets an abortion is a scourge against society, a murderer, a sinner and bound for Hell. When she said that women who have sex outside of marriage and get pregnant were being punished for her sin of fornication, my mom stopped her and said, "There's the other shoe. I've always wondered why some pro-lifers are so rabid about their opinions and now I see. You consider the pregnancy a punishment that the evil woman must endure. So what does that make the child? And what about the woman who is raped and gets pregnant? Is she being punished for her 'sins'?" Her neighbor tried to backtrack but my mom was relentless. She asked if she was against war as well. Her neighbor said no, war was morally right against countries that were oppressed or who threatened the United States way of life. My mom then asked how she could be pro-life when she supported legalized killing? Pregnancy as punishment. That was truly a new one on me.

Karla This the thing with the whole abortions issue IMO. As a military person you will get this. There are times and situations where society accepts and sanctions the taking of life. War. Law enforcement. Criminal justice. Self defense and yes abortion. There is always this cognitive dissonance where this type of killing is concerned. Why is one deemed justified and the other condemned. Ah yes the taking of the life of innocents. But can this not happen in the other situations? If humans can permit one then why not the other? How many time have these same pro-lifers killed in the name of defending unborn children?

Brenda55Karla

As a former Marine, i agree with you, Brenda. Another thing to consider is that so many who call themselves "pro-life", are no such thing. They turn away after the baby is born, offering no help to the mother or the family, especially the poor and "minority". They would deny WIC, food stamps, medicaid, housing assistance, and on down the line, the lack of which endangers both the child and the mother.

On top of that, they also support the making of war and the execution of convicted criminals. They don't believe even in the concept of rehabilitation.

That is NOT pro-life.

Brenda55 Exactly.

NATruthstudentKarla

Don't stop there Truth. What about the lack of insurance coverage for birth control. Medications for ED are covered but not the stuff used to prevent pregnancy.

Brenda55Karla

You said it, Brenda! Kind of a double standard there, but that's nothing new in this country; we've had double standards since day one!

This particular one is just like saying to women, "We want you all to be in the kitchens, barefoot and pregnant all the time."

Sometimes I think we'd be better off with a matriarchal society instead of the current patriarchal one...

NATruthstudentBrenda55 I throw up a little in my mouth at the hypocrisy of covering Cialis and Viagra. At any cost (covered), men will always be able to get it up naturally, mechanically or medicinally. The minute women demand birth control for the same cost (covered), it's "Houston, we have a problem." For whatever reason Margaret Sanger started PP (she had supporters and critics), her efforts wound up giving women a choice and control of their sexuality. If she had tried that today, she'd probably have been mowed down in a hail of Viagra/Cialis-propelled bullets.

NATruthstudentBrenda55Karla It seems like they're pro lousy-can't-get-ahead-if-you're-poor-and-unable-to-pull-yourself-up-by-your-boostraps life

KarlaBrenda55

You're probably right, Karla. I really think they need to get off their high horse on this issue of birth control. I haven't seen ONE legitimate, non-political argument against it.

Now I know some folks turn it into a so-called "Christian" argument, but they're usually the same ones who insist that the Bible is THE unadulterated factual Word of God. But they ignore one minor little detail, and it's almost at the very beginning of that same Bible: "God blew the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Simple, straightforward. You're not a PERSON until you take that first breath, according to the Bible. So the religious folks can get off THEIR high horse too.

Alana 2Brenda55Karla

Sure, Alana. Keep people poor, tired and sick, as long as we can still work and make money for them. Persoanlly, I'd rather make money for myself and make them pay their fair share.

And you can bet that if contraception is ever outlawed, the wealthy will still be able to get it.

Brenda55 That is exactly what I was alluding to in my rant upthread Brenda. My OB/GYN has been nagging me about choosing a form birth control for after the baby is born, but the out-of-pocket rate (after insurance) for the Mirena IUD (billed as a surgical implant procedure even though it takes place in the doctor's office with NO anesthetics needed) is astronomical. I hate taking pills; I never take them on time, and unfortunately that is key to using the Pill effectively. I told her (this past monthly check-up) my husband and I successfully remained childfree for ten years using just condoms, so I guess we will continue with those as they are the most cost-effective choice.

Women's access to effective birth control is blockaded by high out-of-pocket costs (for those WITH insurance). Men can stroll into a gas station or men's room and purchase condoms for less than $5; whereas, my preferred choice will cost over $500.

Karla Pregnancy as punishment for a woman DESIRING to want to have and ENJOY sex is exactly the point. "Eve sinned by allowing the serpent to trick her into taking a bite of the apple; Adam merely went allow with it; therefore, it is justified that we EVIL women suffer with painful pregnancies as was God's intent (so sayeth the Bible)." As you can see I've had the same conversation as your mother with religious fundamental extremists as well.

That is one of the reasons why legalized abortions and birth control is an affront to these people because if a woman can no longer suffer for Eve's sin then we are going against the word of God. The Bible says to enjoy and desire sex is a sin; it is merely the tool used by a husband to impregnate his wife in order for her to bear his offspring. I wish I could make this stuff up, but alas, I cannot.

MadamCJCPAKarla

" "Eve sinned by allowing the serpent to trick her into taking a bite of the apple; Adam merely went allow with it; therefore, it is justified that we EVIL women suffer with painful pregnancies as was God's intent (so sayeth the Bible)."

To that I say bull jive.

Mammals, two legged and four go into labor. No four legged critter in the garden of Eden took bite one from the forbidden fruit. I dare anyone to find a reference in the bible that states that. Just shows how stupid that belief is.

MadamCJCPA

Timely article in todays paper.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120205_Archbishop_blasts_Obama_administration.html

Most people are going to go nuts about his new rule. Simple solution is providing an opt out when you sign up for the insurance. Don't want birth control to remain a good catholic. opt out of that option. Let the other employees make up their own mind. Ah but the church want to do your thinking for you so they will decide if you can have this coverage or not.

They also don't want to spring for the extra cost of the insurance providing birth control entail.

Brenda55 Interesting you should mention this. I posed this question to one of my ultra-religious brethren when I was in the Navy and he said all female mammals were tainted with Eve's sinful brush. They may not have done anything but Eve brought down the pain on all of them. WTH is that kind of thinking? I just don't believe in a "good suffer with the bad" kind of God. In fact, this kind of thinking makes God sound all too human.

Karla Head bowed,SMDH muttering what the heck is is wrong with people.

MadamCJCPABrenda55

FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS??? My god! That's outrageous!

Brenda55 I was raised Catholic; I don't practice it though, the blantant hyprocrisy in its views in regards to women vs. men was enough of a turn off for me.

I've been following the news regarding this attack on women's access to birth control by the Catholic church closely because as I keep telling my husband I am NOT paranoid nor a crazy conspiracy-theorist in thinking that women's rights are under a stealthy attack I KNOW they are.

MadamCJCPAKarla

You know the Bible was written by men, right? That's why the woman is always portrayed as a bad guy...

MadamCJCPAKarla

Gee, I never saw anything that said women aren't suposed to enjoy sex. But even if it does havesomething that coulod be construed that way, my point still stands, it was written by men. And those men had a power-over-women thing going on...

KarlaBrenda55

Karla, that kind of thinkling serves the totally illegitimate purpose of trying to cover up the weakness of the position it tries to support. There is no basis in truth for it.

NATruthstudent Technically, it was translated by man, no one supposedly knows how the writings wound up on the walls, but alas, we are suppose to take it at face value.

MadamCJCPA I was raised RC also. I no longer practice. Got sick of being seen as a "vessel". My major brake with the church was over the abortion issue. RCs don't believe in birth control other than the rhythm method. I and my six siblings are living proof that the rhythm method does not work.

How can you be against abortion and also against the thing that would effective prevent unwanted pregnancy?

MadamCJCPA

The key word in your post is "suppose", dear lady. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that the priests and scribes put those writings on the walls...

Brenda55MadamCJCPA

Brenda, didn'y Monty Python do a skit about that a long time ago?

NATruthstudent I tend to only half listen when people start quoting biblical verses to me, so I couldn't tell you which book it originated in.

KarlaBrenda55 I believe the accepted view is that we as human beings (women in particular) with higher intelligence (which is merely relative with some people I interact with on a daily basis) are meant to suffer because we knew better and Eve was/is the reason for our ejection from the garden. But you are correct Brenda55 , if Eve was the catalyst for the punishment of all women, then why do all female specie mammals experience a painful labor and birthing experience?

Brenda55 Abortion aside let us go back to Pope John Paul II and his asinine views against the usage of condoms to protect and prevent the spread of HIV & AIDS to the effected populus of Africa.

MadamCJCPANATruthstudentKarla It is ironic isn't it? You have a group of sexually repressed men....at least the ones not porking kids..... dictating to the flock how to conduct their sex lives.

That is why I like the Quaker religion. No "middle men". You would be surprised at how many convinced Quakers are former Roman Catholics.

NATruthstudent Of course.

MadamCJCPA Pope John Paul II probably didn't support condoms for Africa because he thought HIV and AIDS were fitting punishments for sex-crazed "heathens". I have a problem with a man who (supposedly) never had sex but yet, is the last word on every aspect of it. What could he possibly know? And yes, I'm sure devout Catholics would defend that position by saying the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra but come on...

Brenda55 My mother's "friend" is a Quaker. She's been to his meetings several times and was there when he did his Life Journey. She said it was very special and she likes it.

MadamCJCPAKarlaNATruthstudentBrenda55 My issue with abortion isn't exactly religious(I'm Jewish) but more intuitive/spiritual/energetic/holistic.

I guess I could be considered 'pro-life' in a way(?) but to a certain extent. I feel that women should have that choice but some aspects deeply disturb me esp. when it's used as a type of back-up BC by the careless. Also when it's used because a child is 'inconvenient' or if the baby is the 'wrong' gender or race.

I think the media is a problem too. There's so much sexually charged material everywhere(not saying it's always a bad thing) but it makes for extra-stimulation for some people who are not prepared to use BC properly, or to have any children that result.

The whole getting off/free love but let's ditch the corpse attitude sickens me to no end.:< If the woman is raped/abused/has a medical condition that makes preg. and delivery dangerous then it's a totally different thing IMO.

PP is shady to me, not just because of the Sanger angle but that there seems to be extra focus on people of color right up to the present day. I just don't believe her ghost is gone.

ForestElfQueen I am disturbed also when abortion is used as a birth control method but I still maintain that it's not for me to say regarding the choice of a grown woman. For myself, I could never have done it because of my personal morals.

Karla agreed. besides, removing choice isn't going to get to the root of why there are so many undesired conceptions occurring in the first place.

Sometimes I wonder if heavy religion and moral codes puts ppl into a type of denial about sex and BC. It's hard to explain but it's like "I'm not supposed to do this so I won't plan or act responsibly".... 'Out of sight-out of mind'/"i mustn't & I can't(pronounced dramatically & pseudo english-ly like 'cahnt') then 'oops!' It's as if it can't be pre-meditated?

I do think that sex can be like fire. It can be beautiful but truly needs to be respected. I don't feel that the present predominant culture respects it much.

ForestElfQueen "I do think that sex can be like fire. It can be beautiful but truly needs to be respected. I don't feel that the present predominant culture respects it much."

I so agree and I do think people are in denial or, even worse, just don't think about what can happen. My BFF has a grown son who had sex with a girl he didn't even like very much. When she became pregnant, they were stunned, as if they had never given any thought to it or didn't really think it could happen to them. They are not married and unfortunately, the children (yes, she had another one and actually said, "I don't understand how this keeps happening.") are living in an environment of hate and blame.

Karla

yes, IMO, there's some sort of cycle/pattern of hyper-stimulation, denial, ignorance, selfishness and short-sightedness involved in this whole bizness. My coffee was too weak for me to even attempt to tease it out right now. lolz.

I know everyone doesn't feel the same way but i just have this thing about innocent lives being sacred. This extends into my ongoing problem with eating meat. I was a veg for 10+ years but went back to carnivorous. yah, I feel better but it well, eats at me..my feeling good at the expense of the animals' suffering or death. I'm not comfortable with this yet. ack. i can be very Guilt-R-Us.

...but back to abortion: at the same time that my parents were super-strict(about dating, let alone sex..though as i got older i had talks with my mom and she made it crystal clear that BC was essential if I chose to indulge), i decided for myself against abortion whether OOW or whatever. As much I was unsure about my 1st husband, i don't think I would have aborted.

Each person has to make her(his?) own choices and deal... I do wonder about situations where the woman does not want the child but the man does. Is it fair to the father? I think these are things to get totally straight before hopping into bed or bending over the desk or whatever. lolz

Karla but yah, no choice gets back to herbs/tinkering/botching. That's not a win either. I just don't know.

There were some OOW or unwanted/poorly-cared-for, born-to-married babies in the older generations of my mother's family but those children born to young or incompetent parents were taken in by the responsible family members and did well as far as I know. ...so, that's another thing that's different nowadayz,... many ppl seem too busy/broke/self-absorbed/ashamed/irresponsible etc for babies, their own or those of others.

again, i don't know. it's a bit of a knot. It seems that something needs to be fixed(for lack of a better word) on the front-end of this pattern.

Karla " My BFF has a grown son who had sex with a girl he didn't even like very much."

see? that's a huge part of it. Why aren't ppl awake? When, I was married to the 1st husband, the slight iffiness I felt, kept me on high BC alert.

also, even if all humans were sterile from this day, why would one want to have sex with a person they didn't like much.

so many are sleepwalking..sleep-bonking or something.

ForestElfQueen Sleep-bonking... I like it. Yes, my parents were very strict and I saw what happened to girls who ended up preggers in my high school. I went to a DoD high school and our actions reflected on our fathers' careers. You can imagine the explosive situation a PG daughter caused. I was petrified of that happening to me so I abstained. Nothing like abject fear to keep a person in line. I did BC also because I knew I didn't want children but I also knew that if I ended up PG, I wasn't going to abort it. I can't understand how anyone can have sex with someone with whom they don't know or don't like. It's so deeply personal and intimate, I wouldn't want to know that much about a person I disliked. My fam took care of OOW births but thankfully, there were few. i had a cousin who was a piece of work. She was on drugs, kept getting PG, had five kids by the time she was 18. Unfortunately, one of those kids was a very special needs kid and she couldn't deal. The fam took care of him but once he got older, he had to be put into a special school where he will probably stay the rest of his life. My cousin is very bitter and old before her time; she's 20 years younger than me but looks like she's ten years older. She's had a difficult life and all of it started with her opening her legs and the drugs. Maybe this happens because some people don't want to take charge of their lives or empower themselves. They live from day to day, not knowing what they want or how to achieve peace and harmony in the life they do have. My other GF just told me her son wants to drop out of high school and ride his dirt bike all day. WTH? See, he's not even thinking ahead or taking charge of his life. He wants the 'rents to continue to care for him.

Karla I had that hardcore pregnancy fear too. lolz. In HS, I'd have nightmares about it and i hadn't even touched a guy ever. haha...It's weird because I've always had a crazy fantasy life but IRL it was a totally different story.(& i love my books & graphic novels etc..as long as the characters are fictional or drawn.. i could never get into porn because i worried about the people onscreen too much..i.e.Why they were doing it, Were they drug-addicted or otherwise enslaved or under duress? Were STDs/infections being spread? etc. that way of thinking killed any kind of buzz i'd get from it)

...drifting back on topic kinda...

..for me connecting sex to possible babies kept me alert, thoughtful and picky too. so, yah, my choice of not having an 'out' really kept me on my toes. ...Also later when I leaned about theories of energetic connections & transference(this was during my reiki, massage therapy Berkeley-Marin phase) that added yet another layer of importance/vigilance for me.

This book resonated with my POV too.

http://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Conception-Elemental-Labyrinth-Sexuality/dp/0938190830

I guess I wish (ah, if i were queen of the world) there was a system to #1 help people be more conscious and responsible above all... #2 have adoption encouraged much more... and finally ECPs & abortion as an emergency measure for serious cases... rather than a 'get out of jail free' card for the willfully ignorant and impulsive? It makes me cringe because if ppl are conceiving unwanted at such high rates, then the STDs & infections are in the mix too. :S

so yah, i guess i'm pro-life, pro-choice... pro-sanity.

NATruthstudentBrenda55Karla Exactly. As a personal choice I would hope to never have to choose abortion because of my personal beliefs. However, I do not think the government should dictate to women what their choices should be. I say that it between a woman, her doctor and her God (if that applies). And it always struck me as nonsensical that the pro-lifers are bombing clinics and calling for death penalty in the same breath they preach about the sanctity of life.

Brenda55MadamCJCPA

No, even if Roe v. Wade is overturn, abortions will still be performed. Even before the case, abortions were being performed and have been for thoursands of years.

Yes, the emphasis should be finding ways to mitigate the need for abortions. There are some that are even against birth control or having any birth control (pills, IUD, etc.) available to women and to have women rely on the "rhythm method". I've met so many rhythm method babies, it ain't funny!

purplemoonflower123Brenda55MadamCJCPA

BTW, There's a big diff between the 'rhythm' method and FAM( or new 'NFP') (which can be used to conceive or avoid).. FAM can be highly effective if the couple is paying attention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_awareness

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/fertilityawarenessNFP.html

http://www.tcoyf.com/

The rhythm or calendar-based failure as contraceptive is because ovulation isn't always on a clockwork schedule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar-based_contraceptive_methods

"

Terminology

Some sources may treat the terms rhythm method and fertility awareness as synonymous.[1] However, fertility awareness is usually used as a broad term that includes tracking basal body temperatureand cervical mucus as well as cycle length. The World Health Organization considers the rhythm method to be a specific type of calendar-based method, and calendar-based methods to be only one form of fertility awareness.[2]

More effective than calendar-based methods, systems of fertility awareness that track basal body temperature, cervical mucus, or both, are known as symptoms-based methods. Teachers of symptoms-based methods take care to distance their systems from the poor reputation of the rhythm method.[3] Many consider the rhythm method to have been obsolete for at least 20 years,[4] and some even exclude calendar-based methods from their definition of fertility awareness.[5]

Some sources may treat the terms rhythm method and natural family planning as synonymous.[6] In the early 20th century, the calendar-based method known as the rhythm method was promoted by members of the Roman Catholic Church as the only morally acceptable form of family planning. Methods accepted by this church are referred to asnatural family planning (NFP): so at one time, the term "the rhythm method" was synonymous with NFP.

Today, NFP is an umbrella term that includes symptoms-based fertility awareness methods and the lactational amenorrhea method as well as calendar-based methods such as rhythm.[7] This overlap between uses of the terms "the rhythm method" and "natural family planning" may contribute to confusion.

The term "the rhythm method" is sometimes used, in error, to describe the behavior of any people who have unprotected vaginal intercourse, yet wish to avoid pregnancy."