Beyond Black & White

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  1. Thank You for posting this.
     
    I’m tired of the typical view points when it comes to abstinence and celibacy until marriage. Like it’s just not possible and having a standard will eventually screw you over when it comes to finding a man. When actually it does a great job at weeding out the possibility of severe heartache. That doesn’t mean you won’t get hurt, because people hurt people regardless…but sex added makes hurt and heart ache that much harder and crappy because sex joins 2 into 1. Hurts more to tear a whole, than two parts that were just holding onto each other. Then the aftermath of the tear when left unhealed wreaks havoc on the next relationship. From a secular and Godly point of view…waiting is a good idea. That’s why you get these 3 dates, 45 day, 90-day rules etc from the world. They see the wisdom in waiting but don’t want to practice that wisdom to it’s fullness. so the safety found in that wisdom is short changed because it was not practice to it’s fullness. These men were saying things that I’ve known, and it’s these men that I’m waiting for. I knew they existed because I think it’s stupid to believe that God would instruct me to wait and then not instruct my future guy to do the same. And just like I’m choosing His way, there must be dude’s who are choosing His way too. Their penises don’t make that feat impossible, unless the guy is slave to his member…in that case, I wouldn’t want to be with them anyways. 
     
    The other viewpoint I’m sick of is….oh these men must be gay. I was reading a blog post on necolebitchie about DeVon Franklin. About how he and Meagan Good were celibate before they met and married. About how he was celibate for 10 years. The comment section was riddled with “oh he must be gay” comments. It was sooooooo annoying. Just because someone exerts some control over themselves when it comes to the opposite sex they’re now gay? Seriously? fo’real? You have got to be kidding me! I have no words. 
     
    Anyways, I appreciate this post. The video was awesome to watch, and confirming of what I knew in my heart and what I’m hoping for. 🙂

    • @desidotd
      Hey there! These aren’t the only guys that are waiting or waited. One of my fav evangelists is a lady named Julie Ferwerda and she wrote a book called The Perfect Fit in which she describes meeting her second husband, who was a thirty-something virgin. I just met a young guy getting ready to graduate college who thought women would be uninterested in him because he hasn’t had sex yet, as he is adamant about waiting for a solid relationship but hasn’t gotten there yet. Not sure if Tim Tebow is still waiting but he was pretty public about being a virgin.

  3. Awesome post! To say it succinctly, until you have 100% arrived acquiring a perfectly healthy mindset, a true grounding of you are are and what you want, no family or relationship damage, at all and are totally self actualized, having sex before either two need it or ready can be detrimental or hurtful. And not many people no matter who they are can say they have ARRIVED 100%…Getting to know and courting is golden…

  4. Nice video. I support abstinence, but I am not all about the purity talk. People who choose to be sexually active are not impure anymore than people who choose to be abstinent are somehow…pure. Nobody ever talks about men remaining pure.
     
    Sex doesn’t make you dirty.
     
    Abstinence is a personal choice and religious morals are not the only reason or even the main the reason a person may choose to be abstinent. Atheist and agnostics practice abstinence also. 
     
    With that little bit out of the way, courting is definitely the way to go. Sex does not give you a relationship, love, or loyalty. Instead it should be the result of these things so it comes after, not before. That seems healthy and smart to me.

    • @iHeartLove You’re heart can be “tainted” (for lack of a better word) or broken without having sex but from other experiences. So I wasn’t too comfortable with that talk either BUT, everything else was great!

    • @iHeartLoveNobody ever talks about men remaining pure.
       
      I’m glad you noticed that, I did too, especially the “the girl kind of sets that up” part.  I know this video is trying to say “Girls, please wait.  And if you do, guys as good looking as this will fall in love with you”  It still places all of the responsibility on the female; if a man really likes you, and if you are worthy, he’ll wait for you. Why is there no conversation about what if a guy wants to wait and the girl doesn’t?  How come abstinence isn’t encouraged for men?  It’s seems like a man is only abstinent because he loves her and she is abstinent; instead of being abstinent himself and either meeting a woman who is also or she becomes abstinent due to her love for him.  
      I do see the positive areas of this video and perhaps I”m reading too much into it.  But that one part, when Jonathan is pleading into the camera, begging women to wait because you don’t want to hand the man you love a scarred heart…..Please, if he wasn’t so cute, I would have smacked him.

  5. I loved this post. Though it may not be for everybody, I agree with this stance on waiting. If you can’t wait for marriage, at least wait until you know where the relationship is going so you aren’t wasting time. If you can wait until you’re engaged and going down the path to getting married, that’s great too. I know there are those here who got lucky, didn’t wait and got married anyway, but I know that it’s actually the best way to wait at least the two of you know you’re on the same page as far as your relationship is concerned.
     
    My husband and I waited for marriage. We weren’t Christian at the time, but our respective spiritual paths taught that we should not engage in irresponsible sexual behavior. Mine taught that we shouldn’t be having sex outside of procreation and my husband’s taught that one should be responsible in sexual behavior, meaning not just doing it for fun or without being conscious about it. So my husband and I were able to get to know each other and really like each other without the rosy filter of orgasm to cloud our judgement. It wasn’t easy because we were both very attracted to each other, but we did it. Was a virgin on my wedding night? No. I gave my virginity (or rather I as tricked out of it) to my first boyfriend while in college. I was young and inexperienced with guys and I regret giving him myself. I really do. I wish I could take it back and give it to someone more deserving, but there are no do overs. When I got around to meeting my husband I had already decided that I was worth waiting for and so did he. It was freaking AWESOME when we finally came together.
     
    I would say that if this is what you want to do, then go for it, it’s worth it. If you don’t and want to get down with your man, do it, but my advice is to really know this guy before jumping in the sack. It truly impairs  your judgement and you’re more likely to overlook glaring flaws or red flags because you already had sex. Sex is a powerful thing. It really does bind you to another person energetically. That’s just my two cents.

  6. I was never for having sex just to say you had it. I preferred to wait and wait I did. Now, he’s my husband.

  7. I decided a few years ago to start abstaining until marriage, so this video was a great find, in terms of realizing there are men out there who share my values! And as I’ve said before here, marriage isn’t about just getting a piece of paper, it’s the effort and thought that should go into finding a partner you plan to share or delegate a whole host of life critical benefits/decisions. Marriage is the end result of what should be a long, thoughtful, critical evaluation of another person’s compatibility in relation to yourself, your dreams and your needs.
     
    By nature I am pragmatic and deliberate when it comes to making major decisions, so celibacy is actually a good fit for me, in terms of staying focused on finding a suitable partner. When I was getting sexually involved previously, it was clouding my decision making process when it came to evaluating a guy’s character and being able to walk away once it became clear our values were not aligned.
     
    I actually like the purity approach, because it’s about more than sex and tries to get at character. There used to be a focus in Christianity on virginity, which is basically just an arbitrary line. I would take a non-virgin guy who was practicing celibacy over a supposed virgin who was addicted to porn or doing “everything” but penetration. The latter really doesn’t share my values, even though he’s a “virgin.” In theory, someone who is practicing purity should be aligned to that ideal, physically, spiritually and mentally.

    • @dani-BBW a ‘virgin’ guy into PORN isnt really a virgin–some DO EXIST but marry rather early. Mark Gungor, a pastor counselor with a radio show, has lots to say about it and has a wild sense of humor also. markgungorshow.com

    • @dani-BBW If you go on markgungorradioshow.com: Mark Gungor is a pastor who is a counselor that has a radio show about marriage and relationships. He also has a wild sense of humor, and sometimes rather edgy..? his son in law is on the show with him and another lady. They read emails from people and discuss them—He HAS LOTS to say about guys on porn and masturbation–and how to STOP==hes a little controversial because hes into early marriage. He himself has been married since he and his wife were 18 (too early for me)

  8. If he’s not putting out then he can keep it. I’ve no interest in a man that is not sexually active. This is on my life up there earning potential, career aspirations and kids. But for…good news for those of you who are into this freaky shit! *wink*

    • @tracyreneejones Maybe hes not ‘putting out’ because he wants to save himself for marriage and dont want to pay child support in case of oops–i know i didnt–LOL but heard the best marriages are between 2 virgins–you have 50+ years to explore each others bodies—

      • @zipporah  @tracyreneejones Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but why would two non-virgins NOT have 50+ years to explore each other’s bodies?

        • @TheFrocker  @tracyreneejones …because you dont have memories of past sexual behavior….its in your HEAD with your spouse even though you dont actually cheat—- even PORN is ‘adultery’ on one level

      • @zipporah I don’t judge his motivation for refraining from sex. My answer remains the same. I know my wants and needs, dictated by me alone. I allow others the same. Nevertheless, I would divorce him if he didn’t satisfy me, so why bother? After all, we do encourage vetting. I’ll have my standards met, as should everyone else.

    • @tracyreneejones I am with you Tracy.  A well used violin plays much better than a new on.

    • @tracyreneejones I’m with you Tracy.  A well used violin sounds much better than a new one.

      • @Brenda55  @tracyreneejones Bow me, honey, bow me … let me hear that high tremelo note, in first position, SING!.

      • @Brenda55  @tracyreneejones
         
        I’m with you and Tracy.  It’s not my thing, but more power to you if it is.  I guess I’m just from another world, lol.

  9. I wouldn’t be celibate for a God.
    I would be celibate for me and my sanity. 
    I guess for me it’s more of a matter of willpower self-disciplinary.
    I want to be in control of my sexual impulses. 
    My sexuality has nothing to do with Western culture or Christianity.
    In fact I think it’s quite weird. Sleeping with people for sexual thrills OR keeping yourself because of a relationship with a God. Both of these things are restrictive. 
    I don’t think that any of it is the right way to go in general.
    Why not be celibate for yourself? 
    I think celibacy NOT abstinence programs can make you a bit better and more intelligent sexually. 
    People who are celibate know why they are not having sex, it’s not to restrict themselves it’s to better themselves. 
    I don’t get that feel from abstinence programs and it can get way to Christy for me and it takes away from the self-discipline part that I want. I think that would be much better for teenagers anyway.. most of them aren’t all that into God anyway. 
     
    I think sex is indeed a spiritual, emotional, pure thing and that’s why celibacy is a good thing. 
     
    Celibacy actually sounds good to me. I just turned 16 on the 30th.. so maybe I’ll start my celibacy for a year or two years right …. now. LOL

    • @astringofpearls You are very mature thinking for a 16 year old. I would have never guessed. Some women in their thirties aren’t this deductive in thought when it comes to sex.

      • @Criticalthinker Aww thanx! I have actually been going through I guess what a typical teenager goes through. Everybody is having sex at some party.. and I’m just at home on my laptop eating ruffles. LOL I went through the “waiting for marriage” phase. And then the “F’ this I’m doing what everyone else is doing” THANK Bob I stayed in the house! But this way of thinking about it works fine for me.. and it’s not a “sex is bad, sex is scary” thing. It’s more of a “yep, sex is awesome, but wouldn’t it be cool if you could be in control of your own sexuality and sexual impulses?” I like the in control part of it.. not someone in your face telling you how you need to do. And it does has it’s benefits. I like the independence. Makes me feel cool.

    • @astringofpearls 
       
      Well some people do look at it that way as if they are doing this all for God. But I personally realized that if it’s all for Him…me in my unchanged heart will probably end up doing having sex anyways because I wanted to. So I made it a point to find out WHY God says to wait. So the way I personally look at it is this….God tells me to wait because it’s what’s best for me. Now after my own research and looking at the risks, consequences(good/bad), and seeing what people deal with when they do the opposite of what God says, I made the decision for myself to agree with God….because me and God came to the same conclusion that sex(something he created) wasn’t meant for outside of marriage, and looking around in my world I could see why. 
       
      It’s like when your parents tell you to save your money, and you choose not to do it..until you look around see that you’re broke and go “oh…it’s wise to save money. I think I’ll do it now” You make the decision for yourself after seeing the evidence of what can happen otherwise. With some people…they don’t need to see what happens when you don’t save….they just trust their parents from the jump because they know that their parents are only looking out for them. That doesn’t mean those people made the decision for their parents though. They made the decision for themselves to trust what their parents were telling them.

      • @desidotd  All of this is perfect. Do what’s best for you and what is good for you. 🙂 I understand there are some people who feel this way about God and sex. It just doesn’t/wouldn’t work for me. 
         
        Some people need their parents and a God to guide them and some don’t.

      • @desidotd  @astringofpearls
         
        Interesting response desidotd. I can respect your point of view, and thank you for breaking it down like that.

      • @desidotd  @astringofpearls That’s exactly what has happened with me over the past few years… “agreeing with God” after finding out the “why.” Thanks for breaking it down.

  10. I had to come back and say I wouldn’t really wait until sex for marriage either.
    The thing about that is I could be celibate walking down the aisle and not have any intention of having sex on the wedding night or honeymoon. At that I could finally stop my celibacy in the 3rd year of the marriage!
    It wouldn’t be about God and what someone else wants me to do, but about me and my impulses and my willpower! The whole set up of that is so f*ckin awesome to me.
    I would probably have a partner where we could BOTH be celibate in a relationship or a marriage! Or we could have one of those periods where there’s no sex involved in anything. 
     
    This seems really fun to me.

  11. Jonathan was a cutie. Reminded me of Cillian Murphy. I’m glad that there are still some men in this depraved world with some kind of values. It’s too bad that they had to learn the hard way that sexual relations is a gift from God to be enjoyed by husband and wife, not something to experience with just any one.

  14. Ehhhhhhhhh… I get iffy when sexuality is objectified and turned into a thing that can be given to someone else, tainted, lost.  It’s not a thing, and it just as much a part of a person as their sense of self.  It should be respected because a person should respecting everything about themselves, not just what is between their legs.
     
    I personally believe in celibacy and I’ve currently been celibate for 3 years, after ending a very sexually active long term relationship with a man that was good to me from beginning to end. There is nothing I regret about that relationship, and had our careers not sent us to different sides of the planet (leaving my career or maintaining a VERY long distance relationship were not options for me), we’d likely still be together. The first year of that relationship was a sex-free one (something that we both discussed and agreed upon. It wasn’t me setting an agenda for him to “feed off of” like the guys in this video are implying. He had a big role in it alongside me.), and I do think that waiting a certain amount of time for trust and intimacy to develop before you engage in sex with someone is very important.  That said, not everyone is on the path to marriage and a baby carriage, follows a christian god, or is incapable of developing a strong bond with another person without a wedding ring.
     
    I like that there is a conversation happening regarding sexuality, but I wish it wasn’t so restrictive.  The whole thing is happening inside a box, and it’s entirely black and white.  Are you pure or impure? Do you care or are you careless?  Have you been penetrated or is your vagina tainted? It’s just unrealistic and unfair, frankly. Seriously, no one is asking men if their penis… I mean heart… is tainted.
     
    Men and women can love and care about each other while having sex outside of marriage. It is possible. And if we’re being realistic, a lot of people are doing things that way (or at least attempting to) than following the purity route.  I really wish the conversation was about developing that love and that care BEFORE sex in general, as opposed to ascribing the whole thing to a wedding ring. NOT SAYING THAT PEOPLE SHOULDN’T WAIT FOR MARRIAGE IF THAT’S WHAT IS RIGHT FOR THEM. Just saying, expand the conversation and the vocabulary, as it would reach a wider audience.

  17. Hmmph. I thought this would be about three attractive young men who have stopped having sex altogether. Instead it’s about three guys who have decided to wait until marriage, a completely different thing. 
     
    Then the usual suspects showed up to form into two camps. One camp demands ‘teh screwage’ by the second date, just to make sure he can kick their tires, light their fires and blast them to the edge of space with the kerb-kick if he can’t. The other camp is the no sex until marriage and maybe even not after it crowd. Yeah, we haven’t had this ritualised comment string for this topic for a couple of months, so I guess we were overdue. Yawn.
     
    Hey, @SirLoinDeBeef ; are you willing to do some cursory research because I have the interest but not the time? I’ve been wondering whether the so-called Pareto Principle applies to sexual activity in a population. I keep getting the feeling that 20% of the population is having 80% of the sexual activity, but don’t have any supporting data. Interested? OT,  but did you change your screen name? I could have sworn it was SirLoinDeBœuf….

    • @Law Wanxi (1). My screen name is ‘SirLoinDeBeef” – ‘Boeuf’ would actually be more accurate, but I was more thinking of the Warner Brothers cartoon of lo, those many years ago … and is so much easier to spell.
      (2). Looked up the Pareto Principle, to find that it applies all over the place – 80% of the crime is caused by 20% of the criminals – 80% of the wealth in the hands of 20% of the investors – 80% of the bitching/moaning/complaining is done by 20% of the inclusive group – in a corporate setting, 80% of the real work is done by 20% of the people – on and on.
      (3). One thing left out of the single report I read was that, within stated boundaries, sexual activity is a Chaotic System, and is thus quite non-linear … thus making statistic analyses more complicated while reducing the power of the computation.
      [I seem to have misplaced the URL of this single report … I’ll re-search for it and give it as a separate post – it’s worth reading].
      (4). Within sex research, however, things get yet more complicated – if one considers only the brief-sexual-encounters crowd, then, yes, 20% of the ‘alpha,’ bad-boyz generally get 80% of the equally promiscous/cougar/puma sexual partners, with the other 80% of men left out because they’re nerds, geeks, too old,too young, not ‘ripped’, not good looking, or have too-thin wallets.
      However, if the goal is careful partner selection, leading to marriage, then the ratio is reversed, with 80% adopting strategies leading to this goal and 20% being left out (such as the habitual players, the terminally ugly/smelly/unclean, mentally or morally ‘challenged,’ incarcerated, criminal-record, dirt-poor, terminally-demented, etc.
      (5). Keeping in mind that several important variables are uncontrolled – ‘sexual activity’ was left undefined – remember that, currently among the young, it isn’t ‘sex’ until full penetration with ejaculation takes place; all else is just ‘fooling around’ – it was acknowledged that most people, male and female, lie about sex matters, including number of partners (males exaggerate their numbers, while females under-report).
      (6). Black people of both genders have more sex that members of other groups, but also report many more STDs, STIs, HIV-infections and OOW births.
      (7). Married people have sex well over three times the amount that single people enjoy, across all age groups – the myth of the active ‘player’ with his ‘little black book, all numbers active,’ is just that … a myth – as is the ‘body count’ of the insatiable cougar/puma/nympho.
      (8). And finally, I discovered that only 5% of all married males 70+ and over enjoy sex 2-3 times per week … and, with the use of 1 ml of 5% testosterone cream, dermally applied once per day, I celebrate my 70th in December!

  18. I’m all about making better choices for yourself, and standing strong in your belief system.  You don’t need to explain your personal choices for your life to another person.  I personally don’t know of anyone who makes fun of virgins. I also don’t think it’s something that entitles you to the Nobel Peace Prize, Saint hood, or more of God’s love.  Now, I know it wasn’t implicity said…but when they started with the ‘pure’ and ‘unpure’ it changed the entire dynamic.
     
    I guess the implication, IMO, is that no one will want you if you’re not a virgin or ‘pure’, or that you won’t find the right guy for you if you are not a virgin. That’s not even close to being true.  In addition, they are talking about women coming to the table with purity, but WTH are these men bringign to the table?
     
    Also being a vrigin isn’t a quality. Just because a person is a virgin doesn’t mean that they’re a good person with honesty and integrity. It simply means they’ve chosen not to have sex.
     
    As for having only each other to explore for the next 50 years….that doesn’t mean they aren’t fantasizing about other people, etc. So, other people and things can still creep into a marriage, or relationship.
     
    I think everyone should stick to their personal convictions, and if someone doesn’t like it thne that is not the person for you, and you need to move on.

    • @DarlingNikki69  I agree. I always hated the notion that someone who is a virgin is a saint and whoever isn’t is like a sex craved immoral creature lol. And I rarely hear people make fun of virgin anymore either. If anything, the popular thing to do now is determine who is a slut and who is not. I respect everyone’s decision to wait or not. I think waiting is nice and takes a lot of self control. I also think not waiting is not the end of the world if you are being responsible in your sexual behavior. I also think treating sex like it is some big ugly monster outside of marriage is what leads to so much misinformed information on sex. People are ashamed and the idea that if you  gave it up, you are done for morally. It is a downward slope. Just do what is best for you and make smart decisions.

      • @CherieMaria
         Hala Madrid! I’m going to a game before I move abroad! I can not wait!
         
        I agree with you. All the purity talk seems like a way to shame women, and control their sexuality. Make the choice that works for you, and stick to it.

  19. CJ the blonde said he is sexually active, despite the fact that he said he doesn’t beleive in premarital sex, which would make him a hypocrite. Did anyone else catch that? I don’t like when some religious people try to preach and police other people’s behavior. Some of them don’t follow their own beliefs. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs. Which is it? – Are all three guys virgins waiting until sex to have marriage? – Because technically, they didn’t say they were virgins, they just said they don’t believe in premarital sex. Having pre marital sex is not a sin. I am a Christian – But telling people having premarital sex makes them tainted or impure, and unworthy of marriage is a sin.
     
    From CJ – ‘Sex is something that’s very important in the relationship. I was raised to not have sex until marriage. Does that mean I follow that throughout my life? No. But I did always in the back of my head know that was the right thing to do. Sex should be cherished and done in marriage. You want your relationship to be blessed by God. You want to build trust.’

    • @Kia I thought he said “followed.” He’s endorsing a courtship model that does not include sex, and at the end of the video he talks about how he was able to start seeing women differently vs just in terms of physical gratification. That, to me at least, says that he changed his sexual behavior.

  20. I think the reason women are being addressed in this video and not men (other than the men who are in it and alluded to – the 3rd guy mentions he met men who were practicing courtship) is because women who practice or believe in celibacy are the core audience. The video is designed to let them know there are men out there who share their beliefs, not tell all women they need to be “pure.”

  21. From Robin Manning – ‘Your looking at a representative for young women and America and a woman that has integrity. Last week, it was a bra & panties. I probably would have never done that. This week? It’s two strands of ribbon and a thong. What’s it gonna be next week? My grandma used to tell me – ‘If you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything.’
     
    Hypocritical christians. Some christians try to police other people’s behaviour when they sometimes don’t follow their own beliefs. Does anyone remember Robin Manning from season 1 of America’s Next Top Model? She was very religious and was eliminated for refusing to pose semi nude. 90% of modeling sexually objectifies women, so I don’t know why she was even in the competition. Before leaving the show, she flashed one of the gay directors at a photo shoot, and Tyra saw that. When Tyra asked her about it, she denied it, but then said she did it, but it wasn’t a big deal. Tyra telling her she doesn’t have to be the perfect christian all the time. These type of Christians are sexually repressed, and don’t know how to express themselves sexually, because they think any type of sexual activity before marriage is a sin. They need to speak to a christian counselor about sex. Also for the competition she’s considered plus size – Even though she has a similar shape and size with Beyonce, JLO, Shakira, Rihanna. If they were in the competition, they would be considered plus size. Tyra continues to promote anorexic women over healthy and curvy women with her model show.
     
    Robin’s Flashing and Elimination
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1SfQ1bPjRw

  22. I’ll be dammed if I get married to a man that needs ‘catching up’, as if I have time to do all that?! Ignorance is bliss, though I’m the type that likes to stay in the know. Waiting is great, the reasons are more telling then the exercise of abstinence.

  23. Nice to hear that. Borth parties should wait and maybe many of us wouldn’t be in the mess we create.Stuck in poverty with children we can’t really afford, absent fathers, broken relationships and we can have a relationship based on respect, love and not lust.

  25. The videos posted/ linked here are good, and they will certainly start a much needed conversation.
     
    This quote is from an article titled The McDonaldization of Sex found at
    http://www.patheos.com/Catholic/The-McDonaldization-of-Sex-Tim-Muldoon-06-07-2012.html
    “We are having more orgasms, but we are losing the ability to love each other in ways that give life meaning.”
     
    I don’t expect many of you to agree with what I have to say, but I’d like you to consider it. As a society we are paying a huge price for the easy availability of sex. Huge numbers of children are denied an intact family with the security and financial and emotional stability that a married mother and father bring. Women, for the most part, are finding it very difficult to find a man worth marrying. “Who loses the most when sexual transactions are cheap and abundant? Women.” And, I would add, children.
     
    Anyway, I’m going to put a longer quote here because I think many of the problems we face are the result of our men not growing up. And I think the easy availability of sex without a marriage commitment is a huge part of the problem. 🙂 Okay. Here goes.
     
    “When primitive men competed for the sexual favors of women who restricted their access to sex, the men had to compete for women by developing communication patterns and sensitivities to their needs. The resulting dynamic was civilization. Women called the shots, and men became more humane.
     
    “In the contraceptive era, however, that dynamic has been reversed because contraception has made sexual access virtually universal. Men have little incentive to marry, rear children, or develop responsibility.”
     
    I’d put it this way: 
    Women were always the gatekeepers of sex. The woman said “no” to sex until the man assumed responsibility for her and any children that came of their union. That “no” was powerful: it, along with his sexual desire, propelled him to grow up and learn to love. The man’s sexual desire would be the motivation to look beyond himself and his pleasure to the good of the woman and any future children. It provided the energy to seek their good rather than his own. Sexual desire was the motivation and the energy to learn to love. (“Love” here means to seek the good of the one loved. I’m not talking about what love feels, rather what love does.)  
     
    Sex before the man has made the concrete decision (and acted on that decision by marrying her) to put her good and the good of children before his own pleasure deprives the man of the opportunity to learn to love (“love is to will the good of another”). To grow up. To become a real man who is willing to suffer for the good of the one he loves.
     
    I am sure there are exceptions to what I am saying – certainly not every man who has sex outside of marriage ends up a loser.  But the pattern is still there and something is seriously wrong.  I think we would all agree that our country is in a mess. Poverty, children without responsible fathers, overworked moms, boys with no role models, immature men unwilling to commit, and too damn many men in prison … the list could go on and on. 
     
    Well, now. Wish we could sit and talk over a cup of coffee. We have a world full of problems to fix!

    • @Sue Z IMO, there are ‘always’ exceptions BUT those days, to me, were the 1980s. I knew men who were more responsible THEN than they are NOW….I have a 17 years old who wants to stay a virgin. She has seen her sisters get messed up by DBR-WM who weren’t very ambitious, even if they DID stay out of jail….LOL. My dad told me, that GOD gave the man the stronger sex drive so he could WORK. If he stayed busy, he wouldn’t have time to mes around, etc. and the womans drive, so she could ‘save’ etc.You are RIGHT many modern under 30 yrs old guys are extremely immature, or is it just the commercials on TV

      • @zipporah Umm. I tried to google it, but I couldn’t find the meaning. DBR-WM = Diocesan bell ringers’ war memorial? I got nothin’. Could you help me out? 
         
        “Stronger sex  drive so he could work”  – funny! I suspect it propelled him to provide for his family. What do you think?

        • @Sue Z  @zipporah DBR = Dammaged beyond Repair.
          WM = White Man.  
          You can also use BM WW BW etc.
           
          You will not find this term anywhere much beyond the BWE blogs.  It has not made it to general use…….yet.

        • @Sue Z yep—that’s what it was for—LOL , Not all men went for prostitutes either–some were virgins until marriage because they thought of the kids that would come forth…One silly man actually could make 30 women pregnant in one month. I remember, someone on this blog mentioned that her cousin is a grandmother of 4 by 4 DIFFERENT TEENAGE GIRLS—the boy was still in High School.
           
          The ‘sex drive’ was for energy, and men who lead and responsible tend not to follow the ones who want to get with as many girls as possible
           
          Guys have to pay child support today and cant marry a women even if they want to and settle down….One of my stepgrandsons has 2 kids by 2 different women less than 5 years apart

        • @Brenda55  @Sue Z  @zipporah 
          “You can also use BM WW BW etc.”
           
          How about we formalise on LM = Latino men and AM = Asian males, as I don’t call them ‘men’ until they earn it. 
           
          There are plenty of DBR/AM out there and the numbers are growing daily. Back in the day, the elders would have, uhm, ‘dealt’ with the problem, but we’re ever so much more ‘evolved’ here in the USA these days. No more feeding them to the fish. Sad.

  26. You know what? If people want to refrain from knocking boots before marriage that is really your affair.
     
     I. Do. Not. Care.
     
    You don’t get extra brownie points as far as I am concerned for waiting. Just as the people who do not wait until marriage are not destined for the 10 ring of hell.
     
    What you do or don’t do in the privacy of the bedroom is your beeswax and unless it is of some entertainment value. Otherwise  I don’t want to know.

  27. Yeah. I knew that reaction was coming. I suspect you’ll get a whole lot more likes than I will. 🙂 Nevertheless, I think these things need to be said. Not because I want to condemn anyone to hell or because I think sex is bad. But because sex is hugely significant and lives are always at stake. And the things we do affect our families and our community.
     
    So, do I need to know what you are doing in the privacy of your bedroom? Nope, and I don’t want to know. But each of us needs to think of the ramification of our actions, and then we need to decide for ourselves.

    • @Sue Z Speak your truth……..just be nice when you do it..  There are people on this site who agree with you and there are people who are lurking who you will help with what you are posting.  I do not fall in that category.  Go for it. 
       
      For me sex is some of the best fun to be had with another consenting human being. Don’t need to be deeper than that. But thats just me.