Groundbreaking Columbia Study: Fear and Stereotypes keep Black Women out of Interracial Marriage

Groundbreaking Columbia Study: Fear and Stereotypes keep Black Women out of Interracial Marriage

Black women in America are more likely to be unmarried than women of other races. They are also least likely to marry men outside of their race although a Pew Research Center report suggests that interracial marriage has more than doubled since 1980.

Released in February 2012, the report suggests that there are specific gender variations within some racial groups. Asian women are twice as likely to marry out as Asian men and Black males are more than twice as likely to marry out as their female counterparts.

Author : Christelyn Karazin

Author's Website | Articles from

Vickie Remoe is a master’s student and Multimedia Journalist at Columbia University. I was honored to be a part of this important report.

See complete study with graphics and slideshows here.

Fear and Stereotypes keep Black Women out of Interracial Marriage

by Vickie Remoe

Black women in America are more likely to be unmarried than women of other races. They are also least likely to marry men outside of their race although a Pew Research Center report suggests that interracial marriage has more than doubled since 1980.

Released in February 2012, the report suggests that there are specific gender variations within some racial groups. Asian women are twice as likely to marry out as Asian men and Black males are more than twice as likely to marry out as their female counterparts.

In 2010, 24 percent of all black men who got married had a spouse of a different race compared to just 9 percent of black women.

Lorraine Mcmaster is a 24-year-old single black woman who lives in the Bronx. She was raised in New York but went away to college at Northeastern University. Although she grew up in a predominantly black and latino community she said she always had friends of all races. But despite that early exposure to diversity, Mcmaster says, marrying a white man is still out of the question.

“I was in Boston one time at a white bar and this guy asked me for my number and I said no. There was nothing wrong with him, he was just white.”

Mcmaster explains that there are certain cultural issues that make her want to wait to marry a black man. But more than that, she is afraid of having mixed children. Mcmaster believes that they have a tougher time.

“In college I met a lot of mixed-race kids and they didn’t seem to understand on what end of the spectrum they belonged. If I have kids I don’t want them to be confused about their identity,” she says.

In addition, she believes that a man of her race would understand certain specific things that only apply to black women. A black man would be more accepting of the many different ways in which she wears her hair.

“My friend’s sister is married to a white guy. He keeps trying to get her to perm her hair. She currently has dreadlocks,” she says. “I would never want to feel that anyone was trying to tell me how to wear my hair.”

She says that while some black men also prefer women with relaxer-straightened hair, a white man asking her to change the way she looked would feel like an insult.

Mixed-race marriages account for 15 percent of all U.S. marriages according to census data. In New York, mixed-race marriages make up 14.7 percent, almost the same as the national average.

Black women are twice as likely to receive college or graduate degrees than their male counterparts. In the last 30 years, black women in America have passed black men in education and income.

A Pew Center study, “The New Economics of Marriage” , found that a third of all black women married in 2007 were more educated than their husbands, “a higher share than for the population overall.”

In “Is Marriage for White People?” Stanford Law Professor Ralph Richard Banks argues that there are more successful single black women than black men.

For his book, Banks traveled around the country interviewing college-educated black women. He found that many black women were unwilling to date men of other races. Instead they preferred to marry black men with less education and lower incomes over marrying outside of their race.

“The disparity of school dropouts and economic hardships leave an unbalanced pool,” Banks explains. “Imagine there are 10 black men and 10 black women to start with and one of those men is unemployed, one goes to jail, and one marries out of his race.”

Graphics by Sarah Alvi

According to census data from 2009, over 70 percent of black women between the ages of 24-29 have never been married. They are still twice as likely to be unmarried as white or Asian women from age 30 and above.

David and April Gibson are a mixed-race couple who live in a two-storied townhouse in Astoria, Queens. They met in North Carolina were there are twice as many black and white mixed-race couples than in New York. This is the second marriage for David whose wife passed away.

They met at a bar where a mutual friend introduced them, and started dating soon afterward.

The race dynamic in the Gibson family is unique. April is raising David’s children from his first marriage to a white woman.

The kids are upstairs playing and David sits next to April on the sofa as she braids her hair. She has a low raspy voice. As she tightens the folds in her hair, she explains that this is the first time that she will be wearing braids to work. It was a conscious effort not to freak anyone out by seeming too black. She works as a technical manager among mostly white and Asian men. To be cautious, she always wears her hair straightened during the probationary period at work.

April says that while she didn’t have a problem marrying a white man, that America’s history of racial intolerance and segregation still discourages some black women from marrying outside of their race. Her mother was the first generation of students to forcefully integrate schools in the South.

“She was kicked, called names, and she still remembers that vividly,” April explains.

Besides the living memory of the struggle for civil rights in America,Dr. Ruth White,  an anthropologist and associate professor of sociology at Seattle University, explains that certain slavery-related gender issues also serve as a barrier to interracial dating.

“Because of slavery, there are black women who feel a sense of loyalty towards black men and feel that they have an obligation to be with black men as a result.”

LeAnne Rizk is a married 26-year-old mother of one who recently moved to New York. Rizk, who grew up in Florida, says that she never considered marrying outside of her race.

By the time she got to high school, she and some black friends from middle school were being bussed to a majority white school. She said that while the black and white students did school-related activities together, there was very little interracial socializing outside.

“The black kids dated within the black circle and we all got along but everyone kept to themselves,” she says.

“There wasn’t really any racial tension, but outside of school all my friends were black.”

Later Rizk attended the historically black Florida A & M University in Tallahassee. Every man she dated there was someone of her own race. She says a white man has never hit on her but, even if one did, she said she would be suspicious. She believes that some white men have a black-woman fetish.

“I’ve watched all these old films and I’ve heard how white guys call getting with a black woman as getting that ‘dark berry’,” she explains.

“I will never know if a white man wants me for real or if it’s just an experiment.”

Rizk says that while it is possible for both black and white men to want to exploit black women sexually, she would rather be exploited by a black man.

“If he was white and he did that to me, I wouldn’t be able to shake that feeling”

***

Christelyn Karazin , a mixed-race relationship expert, and the author of “Swirling: How to Date, Mate, and Relate Mixing Race, Culture, and Creed,” says that black women don’t marry or date out for a combination of reasons. Many of which she says are based on misinformation, fear and prejudice.

“There are some black women who believe that if a white man wants them, it is purely for sex, to satisfy some “jungle booty” fantasy,” she says.

“When a black man dates or marries a white woman, they get a pat on the back from other blacks, but if a black woman does the same, she is made to feel guilty, like how are you going to date ‘Mr. Charley,’ the slave master?”

A blogger and mother of four, Karazin says that she has been accused of being mentally ill. Once she was a guest on the Earl Ingram Show, “Evening Rush” in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She had been invited on to discuss mixed-race relationships. She remembers that a caller said, “Black women who want to marry white men must be crazy because they want to marry someone who enslaved them.” She was surprised that instead of speaking out against this extreme point of the view, the show’s host seemed to share the same opinion. Karazin said that was ridiculous, especially because her husband’s family are third generation immigrants from Germany.

She has been married to a white man for 10 years. Her blog BeyondBlackWhite  offers relationship advice to black women in relationships with white men or black women looking to date out or, as she puts it, “swirl.”

Karazin says that to her, “swirling” describes any combination of racial mixing in relationships, but she developed the term with black women in mind.

Starr Rocque is a 29-year-old freelance journalist who said she “swirled” before finally marrying her black husband Anslem.

Rocque grew up in a black neighborhood in Harlem. Her mother, an arts enthusiast and a teacher, pushed her to engage in activities that exposed her to children of other races. As a result, when she got older she says race was not a factor in determining who she dated or chose to marry.

When Rocque got into her first relationship with a white man, one of her black girlfriends, a close childhood friend, had been surprised that she was in an interracial relationship. Rocque said she explained that they had met at a party and the man had approached her while she was taking pictures. After they spoke they found out that they had a lot in common.

Upon hearing that, the friend said, “Oh that’s it? I thought white guys have some special way of trying to get with you.”

***

Perpetuated racial stereotypes of black men and women are major barriers to mixed-race relationships and marriages. Dr. White  says that while stereotypes about black men actually help them date outside of their race, stereotypes about black women have distorted the way black women see themselves and how they are viewed by men of other races.

Angela Stanley  is a research associate at the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity at the University of Ohio. “In the media black women are portrayed as loud and emasculating, not the kind of person anyone would like to date,” she explains.

“Black men are shown as hyper-masculine. Even with association with crime, it works to their advantage.”

In an airy apartment in Harlem, newly engaged mixed-race couple Nigel Chiwaya and Sarah Babka are about to have dinner. Babka is cooking pasta while Chiwaya sits at the breakfast nook attached to the stove. There is a large window and a balcony that faces west. Chiwaya is playing with their cat.

Chiwaya is a 25-year-old black male and a native of New York. Babka is white and a lawyer. They met at a Starbucks in downtown Manhattan. She was sitting next to a plug and he needed to charge his phone. Twenty minutes later they were still talking. They will be married in September this year.

Chiwaya had never been with a white woman before he started dating Babka. He says one of the reasons why he is marrying her is because she is sometimes even more sensitive to racism than he is.

On the other hand, Babka said that even though she had dated one or two white men, she has a preference for black men and that is whom she has dated. She went to high school with mostly black students.

While their parents have now grown to accept that they are both going to marry outside of their race, Chiwaya says that his mom took a while longer than his father to come around.

“She had expressed a preference for me to date black women,” he says.

Both Babka and Chiwaya say that seeing a mixed-race couple causes a reaction in onlookers. But they say that most times it is black women who seem to most disapprove of their relationship.

“When you are in an interracial relationship you get a lot of stares, even in New York,” he says.

“Most of the stares come from old black women. I don’t know what that speaks to, but I guess there is still some hostility.”

Chiwaya says that when those older black women react negatively to seeing him and his fiancee together, it makes him think of how disapproving they must be of their own daughters dating outside of their race.

***

In May 2011, Psychology Today published a controversial paper by Satoshi Kanazawa a social psychologist at London School of Economics, who argued that black women were the least attractive while black men were the most attractive. The study attempted to use data from the U.S. Add Health, a longitudinal adolescent study commissioned by the federal government to examine adolescent health outcomes.

In 1994 seventh-12th graders were asked to fill our detailed surveys to allow researchers to identify factors influencing certain behavioral patterns. Demographic data about the students’ race and appearance was also collected.

Kanazawa used data from the Add Health Study, not of the survey responses, but he instead focused on how the researchers rated the appearances of the survey respondents. Using that data alone he published his paper with a series of charts and graphs.

The paper titled “Why are black women rated less physically attractive than other women, but black men are rated better looking than other men?” argued that “women of all races are on average more physically attractive than the “average” man, except for black women.” He went on further to argue that “black women were far less attractive than white, Asian, and Native American women.”

Many online black publications and netizens accused Kanazawa and Psychology Today of being both racist and sexist upon the paper’s release. Although it is still available online, Psychology Today removed the paper from its website without any explanation not long after the public outcry.

However, that study, supported already existing negative stereotypes about black women. According to Karazin, many black women falsely believe that white men are not attracted to them.

“At some point the baggage that black women have limits them from getting with white men and other times it also destroys relationships,” Dr. White says.

She recounted a story of a mixed-race couple she knew that broke up early in their relationship. The man who was white, said he was going to make his black girlfriend “his sex slave.” It was a joke. But his girlfriend felt it was insensitive and she could not get over it.

“There are cultural land mines that separate blacks and whites that go as far back as slavery that continue to keep people apart,” she adds.

But Karazin argues that it is blacks not whites who are becoming more aggressively against interracial relationships. She said that when she showed a photograph of her mixed-race daughter and her white husband to her black family who had missed her wedding, they made a mockery of her.

“I had just had a baby with my husband and they wanted to shame me because he was white.”

While social pressure is not enough to prevent black women from dating or marrying outside of their race, it limits their choice of husbands.

Dr. White  says that those black women who choose not to date or marry out because of a strong racial affinity are being asked to bear an unbalanced amount of the collective slave burden.

“Black girls are conditioned from birth that you are black first and then you are a woman,” Karazin

 says.

— additional reporting by Rani Molla

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loveforoneanother 5 pts

"My friend’s sister is married to a white guy. He keeps trying to get her to perm her hair. She currently has dreadlocks,” she says. “I would never want to feel that anyone was trying to tell me how to wear my hair.”

She says that while some black men also prefer women with relaxer-straightened hair, a white man asking her to change the way she looked would feel like an insult"

 

I have very curly hair my African husband asked me to straighten it. I said okay he took me to the African salon and I had my hair chemically relaxed (totally not fun) and he loved it. i must admit it stung when he preferred my straight hair cause I was like my curly hair is part of my identity it is my defining feature.

Before we had met I had had my hair braided he's seen pictures of me like that and says noway I can't do that. He has a preferrence for skirts and dresses so when we are together that is what I tend to wear. My husband is the person that I want to look attractive to so why would I not want to wear clothing and style my hair in a way that is pleasing to him.

 

Michael Miles 147 pts

@loveforoneanother I love curly natural hair, I'm always begging my wife to stop wearing weave and let her natural hair out. However, she says that there is too much stigma in the working world for that. So, I try to leave it alone, but natural, to me, is sexiest.

Lili2009 1826 pts

 Michael Miles  loveforoneanother My husband is also baffled as to why I "relax" my hair instead of go natural. We are pregnant now so I haven't used the "creamy crack" for months and he is more than OK with it. (He saw that Chris Rock movie about relaxers and "black hair" and it scared him enough for him really take a stand against it.

valeriesmith15 136 pts

The world is broken, and would still like to persist in the arguement, black women are least likely to get married, because non-black men don't find them attractive.  We could argue that we have statistics to prove this, we also have statistics showing that marriages between black women and white men are increasing.

 

Black women who are interested in non-black men for marriages or long term relationships will get their men, it is not dependent on whether the sun comes down on Friday evening and doesn't come up on Saturday morning, or the state of the economy or the position of the moon and the planets or the what dating websites say from their research, it is dependant on the women themselves.  They attract what they want and they will get what they want.

 

From the 1900s to 1960s, black women broke rules, the first millionaire was a black woman, they moved to other countries, set up colleges, flew planes, married white men, became movie stars, singers, engineers, writers, scientists, painters etc, everything which was said they could not achieve.

 

The hair forum, which I belong to, half the members are married to non-black men, their husbands are white, hispanic,  hispanic and white, asian men etc. They are married and most have children and they are living in USA.  Even in the first season "The Real Housewives of Altanta", Nene was taken to meet Lisa Wu-Hartwell's family, her mother was African American and her father was Chinese American, all of Lisa's Chinese relatives came, including her aunts, uncles, cousins and her 90+ year old grand-mother.

 

I find this constant banging on that non-black men don't find black women attractive, on the dating websites black women are least likely to get married is becoming really stale at best and a worst very insulting.

 

What is the real issue here, instead God being people's source, black women have become their source and everyone and their grandmother is falling over themselves, wanting to control black women's money, their time and their resources, from their relatives, the hair shops, the communities, the church and even the media.

 

When noticable amount of black women do go out with non-black men and marry them, it has become big news.   The black women are married to non-black men, some they met online, others, they met, in the library, at college, in the supermarket, in the bank, on the high street, in a department store, in the shopping centre, on a cruise ship, in other countries.    They met them going about their own business. The women believed that they would get their men, and God sent them, where they were and the rest is history.  The women were just living their lives. 

 

The truth is like natural hair is not for everyone, interracial dating and marriage is not for everyone.  Both is dependant on mindset, you have to mentality prepare for it.  Just because it may not be suitable for one person, don't tell them it is not suitable for another.

 

Black women have to live  to suit the Almighty and themselves, not Big Mama Big Papa, not their brother Tyrone, Uncle Ivan, Aunty Titi, Cousin Jamile, or Sequeera, Latifta or their friends.

 

Despite all what is said and done, black women are married to white men and other non-black men are they are living in America, the numbers may be low, but is is growing fast and lots of people know that and bothered are jumping up and down and trying to put the fear into black women's life and talk them out of their blessings.  If some black women don't want to marry non-black men, good for them, but teling other black women that is it cannot happen for them is frankly laughable, ludicrous and at worst rude and insulting, what gives anyone the right to tell people what to do and how to live their life.  Why are people wanting to treat grown black people like children. Black women have to be leaders in their own lives.  They cannot be held responsible how people want to live their life and quite frankly, every black people is not your brother or sister.  We are all individuals and we have our own calling and we have to run our own race and give an account of our own life.

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 valeriesmith15 

 

Chris.  Can we have a tab up top for the "Best of the Best Comments" so that we can have a permanent record of some of the wisdom found here?

 

This comment should be the first entry. 

 

Maybe we can have a monthly  "Best of the Best Comment"  nomination and vote. Some of the comments here need to be recorded for reference and for the newbies who find their way here. Just an idea.  What do you think?

Takunda 36 pts

hi newbie here. i just want to say im glad i found i website like this. yey lol. i think its crazy when people behave like some of the women mentioned in the article, the whole "i only date black men" thing is just stupid. i actually didn't know that some people behaved this way till i found this website, but then ive never heard anybody say that where i live... 

Mel_woman 113 pts

I agree with this:

"All I did was bring up the fact that " hey, although we focus on the BW's role in this lets not forget that White men, and their thoughts and feelings and cultural bias or tolerance come into play here too."

 

While I don't agree with everything Matrix12 always says, I do agree with her that I don't agree with all the problems and slow progression of the BWIR movement being blamed all on BW. I've mentioned this before, and it wasn't well-recieved as it's believed that non-bm shouldn't have any involvement with this. I still believe that for the BWIR to progress, nonbm must get involved more or the rate will still stay at a mere 10%. There are other factors to low 10% BWIR rate that can't contributed to just to bw (such as the usual we're too loud, obese, always shouting nbw, etc etc).

 

Some suggestions:

1). Why can't older nonbm in the movement encourage younger nonbm to stop it with the everything but a bw on their online dating profiles? That's extremely discouraging. Are you men encouraging younger men to be open to bw at all? This could be helpful. (I was told earlier that men don't blog about women they find attractive, so I won't put that suggestion here.)

2). Attend cultural/classy "black" events. Show some interest in black/African culture/history/entertainment. BW have to attend white events to show their interest in IR. Why can't you do the same? More bw would be open to nonbm if they saw more nonbm at these events and taking interest in the culture.

3).Try to incorporate IR into your hobbies/passions (if possible). LIke, the Chester singers writing a song about bw. Or today I met a wm comic book artist who is married to a bw. He writes comics about a leading bw character. When people ask him where he gets his inspiration from? He says that he wants his daughter to able to see girls who look like her in comics. He then mentions that his wife is AA. Younger nonbm can hear this coming from men themselves that being with bw is a NORMAL thing. It may get them to open up to bw.  It will probably be more effective for them to see/hear it coming from a man's mouth instead bw trying to push for the IR agenda.

 

But I know I'm in the minority here. oh well. *gets ready for the tomatoes*

This comment has been deleted
The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Pearl  Mel_woman Not all BW interested in IR dating attend all-black events or those geared mostly towards blacks.  

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Pearl  Mel_woman Yeah, I agree with you Pearl!  Plus, I'm not really into that scene.  I like country music, NASCAR.  I've always felt more comfortable in diverse groups than in all black groups.  I met the white guys I dated just in my everyday comings and goings.  I met my husband through a white guy friend.  And even now though I'm an old, married woman and not looking, I still get approached by white men just while doing everyday stuff.  

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 The Working Home Keeper  Pearl  Mel_woman 

"I met the white guys I dated just in my everyday comings and goings."

 

THIS!!!!!!

 

 

It is a shame that this one line cannot be bolded and colored red.

 

I met my husband the same way. As a woman I can tell when a man is interested in me. Keith was and signaled. I liked what I saw and signaled back and the rest is history. I did not reject the signal he sent because he was white or I wanted a BM only or because of slavery or what some other person said or because white guys don't have blogs saying they "heart" black woman. 

 

Did. Not. Care.

 

He was looking good and I wanted a piece of that. It was that simple.

Mel_woman 113 pts

 The Working Home Keeper  Pearl

PearlNot all wm/non bm attending allwhite/non black events are interested in IR, and we still strongly encourage bw to attend these events if they want to do IR. 

Mel_woman 113 pts

I'm just saying if bw have to go where the nonbm are if they are interested in IR, why aren't the nonbm interested in bw encouraged to go where the bw are?

 

 Brenda55 

I agree the wimpy-ness is too much ohh. I wish more nonbm would give stronger signals because I'm noticing these signals everyone else is talking about seeing daily.

 

I think seeing BWIR couples is very powerful actually. The more, the better.

 

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Mel_woman  Pearl Well for me, the places and events I attended were things that interested me anyway.  Of course not all the white men there were interested in IR.  But I can say with 100% certainty, the ones that approached me and asked me out were!

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Mel_woman  Brenda55 I kind of see what you're saying Mel.  But for me, I don't see it as going some place different than  I would have gone anyway.  I live in a predominantly white neighborhood.  I work in a predominantly white company.  I don't have to go out of my way to see WM.  They're everywhere! :)

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Pearl  Mel_woman I've been listening to country music since I was a little girl!  I probably knew every word to my sister's Kenny Rogers cassette tape (showing my age!) before I knew my ABCs!

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 Mel_woman  The Working Home Keeper  Pearl 

"Not all wm/non bm attending allwhite/non black events are interested in IR"

 

 

That is true.

 

", and we still strongly encourage bw to attend these events if they want to do IR."

 

That is called expanding your horizons and interests beyond majority black areas and events which is recommended if you want to meet non-black men.

Mel_woman 113 pts

 Brenda55  

I understand bw going to non-black events if they want to meet nonbm. I just don't get why nonbm aren't encouraged to try going where bw are if they want to date them instead of complaining about not finding bw interested in dating them when they are rarely around bw themselves. (Of course, they don't have to do this ALL the time.) Neosoul events aren't the only black events nonbm can attend (and just because a guy like neosoul and you don't, doesn't mean you two won't get along. You can have other common interests to share). What about events about black/African history? African art museum parties? AA festivals? Jazz? AA plays (not talking about Madea type plays)? Book events by black authors. What about making friends with a Nigerian and attend one of these Nigerian weddings, beautiful Nigerian women everywhere! What about other multicultural events not just focused on AAs? But I'll stop bringing it up since it's turning back into the nonbm just have sit back and wait while bw do all the work again.

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 Mel_woman No, No, No.  Don't stop brainstorming.  The question is a valid one and you are posting great ideas. 

Mel_woman 113 pts

 Pearl Ok, l lied once last comment before I head out to a "white" event. lol

 

I know two white guys who did what I'm saying. One of them always attended our African Student Association meetings even though he's not African. He came to all of our events and participated in our deep discussions on African current affairs. (He was very knowledgeable about African affairs). He was the only white guy doing this of course. Of course, some of the African girls weren't interested in him, but many looked his way. He got himself an African girl by the end of the year. (He preferred black girls and we go to a PWI. Again, why spend all your time at mostly white events if you want to date black girls?  At least go to some multicultural events.) Another guy started tending our African Progressive meetings where we discuss issues about African affairs and how we can help to improve them. One white guys regularly attends these meetings. And I see African girls looking his way and smiling at him all the time at the meetings. Heck, I've done this a few times. lol. Everyone was welcoming him. No one was shooing him away just because he's not African. And I'm sure he'll have his African gf pretty soon as well. And if you have no interest in African affairs or "black" events, don' go. lol. If wm ask you out daily or don't have problem finding bw, this doesn't apply to you.lol It takes two to tango, that's all I'm saying. They can meet us half way and the BWIR numbers will increase faster than they are right now. Just because many here don't attend "black" events, doesn't mean that other bw are open to nonbm aren't at these events. Again, I'm not saying for nonbm to go to all black events all the time. Every now and then wouldn't hurt.

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Mel_woman  Pearl  I actually had a close guy friend from high school (a white guy) who made the choice to attend a predominantly black college.  He liked black women and ended up meeting his now wife there.  I understand what you're saying, but it just doesn't seem necessary (to me) in order to meet someone of another race.  My husband wouldn't have gone to an all black event.  And he didn't need to in order to meet me.  But that's just my experience - and we all have different experiences of course. 

zipporah 1714 pts

 The Working Home Keeper  Pearl  Mel_woman I also like counry music and so did my parents. It's funny, my aunts and uncles, their siblings didn't like it much. I like Johnny Cash, even Brad Paisley and others

ASwirlGirl 3025 pts

 Brenda55

 I'll say it again:

 

It's really Just. That. Simple. BW need to Quit. Making. It. So. Complicated.

Toni_M 18789 pts

 ASwirlGirl  Brenda55 I think this is a consequence of some women being othered or rationalizing being othered. You are not a woman, you are a BLACK woman, which means you are not allowed to operate like any other woman. You have to sit in a box and can't leave that box completely without someone else's permission or until some mythical set of circumstances occurs where conditions are miraculously perfect.

 

Sigh.

Bunny77 2054 pts

 Mel_woman The Working Home Keeper Okay, I see what you're saying in this example. Honestly, I'm not too worried about the non-black men who have a preference for black women... what I mean by that is, they are usually the ones who have no problem finding interested black women and going where black people (and thus, black women) are. I've known of a number of WM involved in the basketball world (coaching high school and youth teams, maybe college) who have black wives. Not trying to stereotype all black people as liking basketball, but it's pretty easy for those white guys to meet, date and marry black women. The BW they meet could be the older sisters or mothers or cousins, etc., of the BM they meet through coaching. Other guys who want black women specifically will usually seek them out on IR dating boards or even Match.com and "mainstream" boards. Or they'll go to "black" events. I knew a couple of guys in my high school who were called "honorary black men" because they were super-comfortable about black people and they dated (and often eventually married) black women. The black girls and women just loooooved them and absolutely were NOT resistant to them because they happened to be white.However, my focus is more on the group of men who don't necessarily have a preference one way or the other about the race of women they want to date. Most of the non-black men I dated had not dated any black women before and were not specifically looking for a black woman... but they liked ME and went out with me. If I hadn't been at these events and places (where I wanted to be anyway), I would never have met these guys. And they probably still wouldn't have ended up dating/marrying a black woman.If BW are going to wait and hope for more non-BM to start hanging out in "black" spots, that wait is going to be in vain for most. The non-BM who specifically want BW and are serious about it are probably already going to black-oriented events, clubs, hangouts, etc., finding the BW of their choice and moving on.  So, BW have two choices if they want to date IR... keep hoping to meet one of these WM or other-non BM to show up in their spots, or look to meet non-BM wherever they happen to be... or do both.

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 Bunny77  Mel_woman  The Working Home Keeper 

 

"So, BW have two choices if they want to date IR... keep hoping to meet one of these WM or other-non BM to show up in their spots, or look to meet non-BM wherever they happen to be... or do both."

 

Don't know how many different ways we have to say it. Is it fair? Nope but black women are doin' the complaining  so black women need to be doin' the changing.

 

Non-black men are not blowing up the airways and the internet crabbing about not  finding a mate. So I think the ball is in our court to take the steps needed to reach our goals. We can only control what we do, not what others do. 

 

Just a point to consider. Do you think the whole "Lets get or lets wait for the non-black guys to come where we are"  is in any way similar to the "Lets get or lets wait for the brothers to come back home" meme? To me both of these are making black women's happiness dependent of what someone else is doing. We know that we cannot really control what some one else does.

 

 

Bunny77 2054 pts

 Brenda55  Mel_woman  The Working Home Keeper Exactly. At the end of the day, it comes down to deciding what you want. It's like when women (in general) will complain that it's "unfair" that we have a biological clock for having kids while men don't.

 

Well, fair or not, that's how it is. So, if you (general you) are a woman who wants kids, make life decisions accordingly.

 

I can only say in my case that I wanted to be married to a quality man (race didn't matter) and have children. When life circumstances at the time held me back from meeting a good number of quality men, I was the one who had to make the effort to explore more avenues to meet those men. Because, after all, it was my life and my dream, so I needed to take action. I wasn't going to wait for the day that a "good BM" or "good WM" or whatever would happen to show up... because, like you said, it would make my happiness dependent on other people's choices.

 

I think Mel's advice and suggestions are good for some of the men on here or in real life that might really want to meet more BW, but ultimately, most men are going to do what they want to do. And that's why BW have to be proactive and take their own destiny in their hands instead of focusing on what's "fair" and what's not.

MySmile 4172 pts

 Mel_woman I agree with you to an extent. I don't believe that white men should go out of their way to go to "black" events if it doesn't truly interest them. It makes them look as though they are trying too hard to be "down" and be interested in things that all black people don't even like. I don't like white guys who only hang around black people because they seem to have adopted the black community mindset..It sucks when you feel you aren't black enough to talk to certain white guys! lol!! I once talked to a guy who was surprised I didn't know 1000 facts about hip hop. Even though I'm into music in general (and he was a DJ/graffiti artist) I don't know why he assumed Hip Hop was my favorite. Next!!!

 

On the other hand, staying in that same little white bread circle isn't going to help them meet any women of color. They can't just expect to meet black women if they aren't pursuing any.  I do believe that if they already have interests that would allow them to mingle with a diverse group then they should go for it. For example, my boyfriend likes Ray Charles and music that sounds like it (old soul..he's only 23). He also likes soft rock and most other genres, like me. He might have enjoyed a jazz/ blues festival like you said...and before he met me, he could have met some bw as a plus (probably cougars!!! lol).

 

Most white guys are not around only white people though...so they just need to approach more black women in the places they visit on a regular basis (the grocery store, the bar, etc). I like men to pursue me...or at least show they are interested. Like you said, this should not fall all on the woman's shoulders . I personally think a woman can show herself friendly and available without chasing after a guy and looking desperate. I met my boyfriend at work, which was a mixed environment. He was shy, but at least he had enough sense to smile at me and add me on facebook lol..that showed me he was interested because I didn't even know he knew my full name!

Mel_woman 113 pts

 MySmile "I don't believe that white men should go out of their way to go to "black" events if it doesn't truly interest them. It makes them look as though they are trying too hard to be "down" and be interested in things that all black people don't even like. "

 

What if nonbm felt this way too as well when it seems bw go out of their way to only attend white events? But we don't think they think this way we go out of our way to only attend white events.  However, if a wm attends black events (often or every now and then) and has more than one black friend, he is labeled as sketchy.

 

I wish more guys would participate in these kinds of discussions and what they think. It always seems like they disappear when I mention putting a bit more effort. lol.

------

To a post above, I'm not sure how I'm other bw. Both nonbm and bm attend Asian/latina/white events when they are interested in meeting Asian/latina/white women. How is suggesting they do this sometimes if they want to meet bw making bw less of a woman?

 

Again, I didn't say wm interested in BWIR go to black events ALL the time, or that bw should stop going to nonblack events. I just said it would nice if they could meet us half way sometimes as they do with white/latina/Asian events.

MySmile 4172 pts

 Mel_woman I don't feel that black women should go out of their way to go to "non black" events if that's not what interests them either. Everybody needs to expand their horizons..but why be bored as hell why you're doing it? lol....Most of the black women who date wm already like things that are stereotypically "white" so I guess that's why bw are at non black events more than the other way around... People should just try new things that already interest them. They can enjoy themselves and meet guys/girls :-). If they like drinking and dancing, maybe they should try a new bar (although the bar isn't the best place to pick up a good man/woman..there are some there). If they want to try a pottery class, a salsa class, etc..then do it!  If a guy lives near the beach, next time they go they should pay more attention to the chocolate ladies in their bikinis! They should try to approach them. People should just do things that are already appealing and look around more! They may have been overlooking some potential mates. Just because there is not a large population of blacks or whites, it doesn't mean they aren't there. Many white men, even the ones who live in majority white areas, pass at least a few gorgeous black women in the local Target or mall. I just feel like they should meet in whatever places they happen to be in...but I guess that's idealistic.

 

Also, I definitely don't mind if a guy has multiple black friends..but I don't think we would click if all their friends were black..I'm not sure though.

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 Bunny77  Mel_woman "Most of the non-black men I dated had not dated any black women before and were not specifically looking for a black woman... but they liked ME and went out with me."

 

That was my experience as well!

The Working Home Keeper 6590 pts

 MySmile  Mel_woman"Most of the black women who date wm already like things that are stereotypically "white" so I guess that's why bw are at non black events more than the other way around."

 

Very true in my case!  Plus with just the comfort level I have in diverse groups - as opposed to all black/mostly black circles.  I was around WM frequently, so it made meeting them easy.

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 Mel_woman  Matrix12 No tomatoes from this corner that was actually constructive stuff.  Better than telling BW to join the convent even in jest.

 

This is my take for what it is worth.  It does take two the tangle so this discussion is a valid one.  I guess we focus on the BW end of the equation since that is who most frequently visits this site and after all our behavior is what we can control.

 

I see this whole subject as one where you have the non-black guys on one side and BW's on the other and it is as if each side is waiting for the other to make the first move. What happens is that no one moves. Non-black men want to be sure that their advance will not be thrown in their face and black women want to be sure that there is an overwhelming desire for them before they are receptive to even consider a non-black mate. On that last point, sorry ladies no woman gets that iron clad guarantee from any group of men. Popular culture is full of how too guides, songs, movies what have you about dating and relating.  

 

Now somehow in the current climate lots of us here have gotten together with non-black men. Some of us have done this ten or more years ago. Heck the Lovings did it in the fifties  and there were BWWM couples paired up when it was not legal or safe to do so. Why on earth is everyone so wimpy now? 

 

Now that it is so much easier for BW and WM to hook up each side seems to want an engraved invitation to meet and possibly date each other. Well the timid will have to satisfy themselves with pining over lost their opportunity and what ifs. 

 

Sorry but the mating dance has not changed much though out time. Men advance and women are receptive to those advances. If the man feels that his advance will be rejected then he will go elsewhere. That is easy for him to do since there is someone out there who will accept his advance and she may look just like you but was willing to take a chance. To be honest I have seen with my own eyes guys pitch in the direction of black women and the gals let the balls drop on the ground clueless. Guys expect that, pitch elsewhere and then score. Leaving the first gal scratching her head saying "I didn't know he rolled like that". 

 

Some of this may work itself out as more and more BWWM pairs are seen out and about but I have to tell you that should not matter. Just because I am out there with my man does nothing for you or the non-black man who sees us.  You just know that we paired up and that it is happening more frequently.  You have no idea if the person you are looking over at is willing........until you talk to them, feel them out and take it from there which is what you have to do no matter what the background of the person is. Sorry but IMO some of you guys over think this.

FriendsofJay 1824 pts

 Mel_woman  Matrix12 Mel_Woman said:

 

1. Are you encouraging younger men to be open to bw at all? I've been trying to do this for years.  But every time I do, they witness BW being loud, or otherwise unpleasant.  We need more input from BW to encourage other BW to show a better side to their nature.  Evia (Black Woman's Interracial/Intercultural Magazine) and I even thought of having local "meet ups" Mixers if you like.  But getting local cooperation is problematic.  And one of my best childhood friends is president of the local NAACP.  Its very frustrating.

 

3. Try to incorporate IR into your hobbies/passions (if possible). I do.  I have a large collection of DVDs (over 100) and memorabilia about IR relationships.  I even tried to persuade my producer to buy the copywriter to The Minstrel Man (a marvelous 1979 TV movie) that had one broadcast and then disappeared from the scene. 

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076393/

 

Also I wanted to teach a course in IR movies at the local college (I have an MA in English), but the administration was cool to the idea. I believe and have tried everything you've mentioned.  But mine is a redneck area. Nonetheless I keep trying.

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 FriendsofJay  Mel_woman  Matrix12 Shame you are not in the Philly area. A course like that would do well.  We have alternative adult education groups like the Mt. Airy Learning Tree that holds all kinds of classes. A class like that would do well there and would attract any number of IR couples and those interested in IRRs.

Mel_woman 113 pts

 FriendsofJay 

 

Your efforts are appreciated!

ann4950 732 pts

 FriendsofJay

 Maybe it is time for you to move some place where you can be happier with your choices.

ann4950 732 pts

 FriendsofJay

 Just wondering how old are you?

 

FriendsofJay 1824 pts

 ann4950   I'm 67, but people tell me I look 50--------if that's a compliment.  For some reason a youthful appearance runs in the family.   My mother died of a heart attack at 65.  People who knew her were shocked.  They thought she was 40.  I suppose that's flattering to a girl, but its really not much of a compliment to a guy.  I've restored classic films, written liner notes, even discovered lost films, but no one notices anything but "gee you look good for your age."

Brenda55 19324 pts moderator

 FriendsofJay  ann4950 Jay anytime someone knocks 17 years off your age its a complement. 

 

I know what you look like and would not have guessed 67 either.  Lucky genes.

FriendsofJay 1824 pts

To Matrix12: 

 

You said: "FriendsofJay is a prime example. He illegedly (BTW, not to be insulting, but the word is "allegedly") "likes" black women, but he married a white wife, possibly had white children and now he's a senior citizen on BBW dot com."

 

To be fair I feel I should tell the part of my story that you don't know.  I've been criticized for telling this story too often, but I'll take a chance on telling it once more.  I loved the black girl I was datin, but you must try to understand that the 1970s were very, very different from today.  When I was growing up black men and women were porters, shoe shine boys, garbage men, elevator operators, etc.  Despite my attraction to BW, the rest of the world was telling WM that they were crazy to like BW.  My parents, who had brought me up to be color blind, evidently didn't want that blindness extended to their son marrying a black girl.  It took me quite some time to get over her and my parents and I were never again on good terms.  

 

Again,  there has always been this double standard----even when I was in college---- that while it was just fine for BM to date WW, it was a sin against God and the BC for a WM to love a BW.  Can you imagine how ridiculously illogical this seems to anyone who can add two and two and get four? But it was a fact that I was just supposed to accept.  But I didn't.  There were so many things against our getting married and both of us knew it.

 

Also, BM don't seem to be beating a path to your door (they prefer WW), but you still run after them and try to convince other BW that they should do the same.  You give up a chance with a man who might love you because of color, but run after a BM who doesn't treat you well, takes your money, expects you to keep him, and might even sell drugs for extra spending money?  I couldn't describe BW insanity any better?

 

Yes, I'm married to a WW.  We have no children.  I guess I'm a senior citizen, but my intention in coming to these boards is to persuade BW, "don't throw away you chance for happiness when things are so much different and more positive today.  Don't carry a grudge because of what happened 150 years ago.  Stop being so suspicious of WM intentions"   Men are men after all and are interest is the thing men are interested in.  But that doesn't mean they don't love you.  Slavery was wrong and is wrong today, but what can anyone do about it in 2012.  You're going to distrust WM because of what happened so long ago?  You're going to keep the black race pure?  If its part of your nature to wait for your black prince I don't mind.  But why try to persuade other BW to follow suit?  I want those BW who feel that way to get over their anger.  But above all please stop trying to poison the minds of other BW against men who might love them and make them happy.  In the end happiness is the only thing that really counts in life.

 

 

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FriendsofJay 1824 pts

 Matrix12I hope I understand your position too.  There's room for many different ideas and I don't think anyone on this blog wishes you anything but well.  We just hope that you won't try to paint WM intentions with such a black brush.  Sometimes I think maybe it's not my place as a WM to comment on BW issues.  I've at times been accused of cruising for "Jungle Booty" and other less attractive thing.  My only interest is to tell BW that this is a different age and that ALL men and women should be free to follow their heart.  Forty years ago is far removed from the freedom you have today to make your own choices.  I know from personal experiences that many WM find BW quite desirable-------and always have.  Forty years ago just wasn't the time.  Today is.

ivanperonaamo 195 pts

 Matrix12  FriendsofJay white men are under pressure? In a much lesser extent than when FriendsofJay was young. 40 years ago the pressure was like a mountain; nowadays it's a pinch of sand; 

SirLoinDeBeef 2490 pts

 FriendsofJay On my end, in the 1950's (high school) and early 1960's, it was much more blunt ... I was simply told (repeatedly) that I'd be disowned and disinherited, turned out with the clothes on my back ... and no, this wasn't a idle threat.

FriendsofJay 1824 pts

 SirLoinDeBeef That's exactly what I was told.  What was most surprising to me was that my parents had brought me up to be color blind.  It was quite a shock when I found out otherwise.  I had foolishly expected to be greeted with hugs and kisses.

ann4950 732 pts

 FriendsofJay

 It's so sad that you had to go through all of that non-sense.

 

 

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Maxine 1005 pts

 Matrix12 I read your original post several times, and it was pretty fatalistic.  You flat-out concluded that black women should prefer black men.  The entire post, like Brenda said, couched things in terms of the black collective vs. the white collective.  You used insulting terms like should we chase after white men in droves and are they really the god-like creatures we think they are,   Being open to a white man or having a preference for them doesn't equate to worship. The worst part was your post that some women will just have to be alone.  We are women who have already decided we do not want to be alone.  This is each individual's search for love and compatibility, not a mass of damaged bw seeking a savior from all their problems.  I don't know how many times it's been stated by posters that our attraction to non-bm has nothing to do with having been hurt by a bm, or looking for a father to a child that a bm abandoned us with.  As long as I've been reading this site, I have never seen anyone advocate race over quality, that a bw should snag a wm simply because of his whiteness.  I get your point about white men's attraction (or not) being the other side of the coin.  As black women we can only control our own thoughts and actions.  I know I've barked up some wrong trees as far as white men go, but you learn and you move on.  That is why we have so many discussions about recognizing when a man is interested (or not), traveling to swirl-friendly areas, doing the online thing, letting friends introduce you to men, going to racially diverse social events, or just being approachable in public.  Like someone said, we're not looking to date all non-black men--all you need to find is the one for you.

BeautyIAM 1274 pts

@Matrix12 I'm actually willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but some of the things you have said so far on this post are extremely shady and suspect.

BeautyIAM 1274 pts

 Matrix12 

 

But I also wanted to add that I don't see a communication problem. Brenda gave quotes to some of the things you have said so far.

 

Then somewhere down the line you something along the lines of it not being a good idea for black women "to chase after white men."

 

Its like you're hell bent on letting us know that non black men don't want ya'll like that. No one is telling black women to open up their options to men that that don't want them. But you don't get that. I personally don't give two sh*** about the non black men that are not interested in me. I'm way more interested in the guy at the gym that might be checking me out.

 

What you're saying is nothing new because I've heard people like you talk. You're the incognito negative nelly/debbie downer.

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VintageNarcissa 3151 pts

 Matrix12 I'll say this ... I know you've been apart of BBW conversation for a while, and not all of your responses are like this. I also know that topics come up where not everyone is in agreeance and that can cause some tension. But I don't think it is a coincidence that so many people read your posts and determined that there was a cause for concern in what you said. You even went so far as to search the internet for proof of white men talking negatively about black women. What the heck was that? And you pulled up some white supremacist type conversation touting it as if we're supposed to expect positive opinions on blacks in general, let a long black women from them. Shall we be reminded of the Hunger Games situation, the ABG situation that is proof positive that racism is alive and well and has simply found a few home in which to fester on the Internet. But just as we say that NBAB-BW do not speak for us, These Internet bigots do not speak for all non-black men nor share their values or interest in women. And I really do think you were wrong for insinuating that black women should not try so hard to find the love they desire because of what *could* happen. The whole point of life is uncertainty, and conversely the will to push the fear of that uncertainty aside and live anyway. And BBW is a site dedicated to the possibility that whatever us uncertain in love life will turn out positively for black women. Because there really is absolutely no reason why black women should not have all the rights and privileges for human beings. As I said in one of my posts, the United States is so vast, the world is so vast that it is virtually impossible for a woman, any woman to go their entire lives without finding even one man. Whether they end up alone is purely dependent on their merit and actions. There are so many varied types of women out there that you have no idea what their ideal situation is. Not everyone evens wants to be married. Not everyone wants a serious relationship. Maybe it's one woman's dream to spend her life dating a myriad of exotic men and never settling down. She may have to slow down or stop when she's really old, but I'm pretty sure that a woman like that would not have considered that she spent her life alone. And even though we tend to use white men as a default in IR, it is also quite obvious that not every black woman who dates IR will end up with a white man. My boyfriend is mixed race, Hispanic, white and black but is of primarily Hispanic decent. We have our own Ricky T, who's girlfriend is clearly dating and Asian guy. There are so many varying positive things that could happen, I don't know why you would want to focus on the negative. I personally believe that the people, the black women who truly want that happiness will find that happiness. If they don't find it, they didn't truly want it. I honestly believe that to my core. And again the whole point of BBW is to promote positivity for the outlook of black women. So I suggest that you perhaps find a better way to word such opinions so that they don't sound so incredulous, if your true intent was not one of malice. 

Christelyn 8737 pts moderator

 VintageNarcissa  Matrix12 I have to come to the Matrix's defense. She's been  contributor for a while, and for the most part, has been supportive and insightful. Everyone has a bad day.