Let’s Hear It from the Boys: Why Flirting and Romantic Overtures Often Fall Flat

 Joyce345 Wish I could give five likes to this post.

 Joyce345 You always bring a new perspective to things. I dig it.

 diamondgal "White men, to me, seem to be the least assertive. They tend to do things like brush lint off of your shirt. Talk about the weather a lot. Not to stereotype, all men are individual. But, these observations are from my experience."

Is it just me or did she just say white men are wimpy?  OK, actually I agree..... to an extent we are.  Much more cautious about climbing out on that limb - at least when it is a limb of another color - than most other cultures of men.

 EarthJeff  diamondgal Which is a shame really.

 KingsDaughter  EarthJeff  diamondgal I think its the more 'modern' WM though I could be wrong

@zipporah @KingsDaughter @EarthJeff I think you may be right.

@EarthJeff LOL. Well, I don't want to say wimpy.... Cautious is a much better word. Maybe white men fear rejection more?

 diamondgal IMHO, a lot of WM are 'least assertive' due to being on the receiving end of Women's Liberation, plus 1st-, 2nd- and 3rd-wave male-hating-feminist attacks - what a black, Hispanic or Indian man can get away with might very well result in a sexual-harassment suit or outright firing from a job ( ... or even total career loss) for your typical WM.

I say this with considerable knowledge, having lived through the WW/WM 'sexual revolution.'

 SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal  This is actually what I was thinking. WM could not get away with walking all up on a woman. Or even being persistent in pursuits of women fearing that they would be seen as a harasser or a stalker. Or even being a bit straight-forward. 

So does that mean that WM try to attract a BW the same as they would with WW and BW don't get it? And it seems they have become so used to it that it's just what they do now. 

What I don't understand about this is that WW like to say how much they love to be pursued and when they do get pursued the man is all of a sudden a harasser. 

@astringofpearls @SirLoinDeBeef Because they love to be pursued, but they don't want that to show. It's almost cool to say, "Oh, I have a stalker". I've seen some brag about street harassment. Some have said that they don't like to be harassed, but if they aren't, they feel unattractive. Go figure.

 diamondgal  astringofpearls  SirLoinDeBeef 

That is very odd and confusing for me, especially for them! 

 astringofpearls  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal

 I noticed this too, recently I was at a casual eatery/coffee shop(I frequent this place now since I am trying to get out more) the people who mainly hang out here are older single men(35+) and the non party-going group of students(I am one of them, I tend to avoid hole in the wall party places and save up until I can go somewhere nicer). I have noticed that older men that are hispanic, black or mixed race have no problem chatting up female patrons regardless of age, a few have even calles me and other female patrons cute or pretty.  The white men are much more reluctant and are more likely to comment on your order, the weather and just seemed more concious of offending people. 

 thecrazyartist  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal 

I noticed that too! WM always say they don't have 'game' like BM do. BM and HM are very straightforward. 

"The white men are much more reluctant and are more likely to comment on your order, the weather and just seemed more conscious of offending people."

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. LOL It's.. sad. I think WW have trained the not to be like other men.. like it's bad when they do it because they are white or something. I actually don't like that kind of talk either.. I'm not a 'small talk' person in general. That kind of talk is like.. polite conversation, not really going anywhere just manners. 

 astringofpearls  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal

 I don't know if it is good or bad either, I mean I like white men, but the men that approach me now are mainly hispanic.  I don't mind men that are respectful, but I am pretty dense so subtle cues usually dont work too well on me.

 thecrazyartist  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal 

I don't like wondering if he's into me or not. Or if he's asking me on a date or not. It goes both ways though.. I think okay.. maybe if I flirt a little he'll get some courage and NOT talk small talk every time he sees me. Some women don't like to ask men out and like to be pursued.. I like being pursued. And I have a bit of a strong personality with a bit of sarcasm and 'smartassness'... and I like guys with those traits too, but the way they come off can be a turn-off, I mean he's really sweet and nice, but the way he comes off doesn't tell be this can be anything. This in not ALL white guys but quite a few... especially the older, divorced ones. And the ones who have never married. I would say that they may need a book or something.. but so many teach the guys to be complete assholes and jerks.

 astringofpearls  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal One of the ways for a WW to get ahead in life is with money = power - this is the 'thick-wallet' solution - thus, encouraging a WM to pursue, then suddenly turning and declaring him a harasser, can lead to a suit or a 'settlement' = money.

While working as a consultant to ARCO, some years ago, I was 'entrapped' by such a feminist corporate-creature, climbing the 'corporate ladder' by successive harassment suits - I got off only because she found out I was a consultant, and thus, had no money or corporate position to yield.

 SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal 

I've read some blogs that describe that behavior in Western WW. I don't think that is a good way to live your life. It's confusing. I don't know how anyone could do something like that for money. That is so sick. Like someone just said above. You want compliments to make you feel good about yourself and when a man (WM) gives you a compliment it's harassment. To me that encourages low-self esteem in so many ways. On top of that you're doing it for a settlement. 

 astringofpearls  thecrazyartist  diamondgal Remember that the Hispanic and Indian male culture is very 'macho,' as is the current Black male culture ... pursuit is everything - once accomplished, "Madonna' rapidly turns to 'Whore'.

While some WM do this, it is not as all-pervasive ... remembering that WM tend to marry, and thus take more time selecting a person who might be a potential long-term, ring-wearing partner.

 astringofpearls  thecrazyartist  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal "I'm not a 'small talk' person in general. That kind of talk is like.. polite conversation, not really going anywhere just manners."

You are missing an opportunity.  Most white men do not engage in small talk with women that they are not interested in. It is usually the briefest of responses to answer a question.

Small talk is part of that subtle feeling out process I talked about below.  You gain a lot of information and can send a lot of information in a non-threatening and non committal way once you learn how to do it. 

Another thing white guys will do is talk around you by saying something personal or complimentary about you while you are in a group that they would not say to you when you are alone with him. They make it seem like a generalized statement and then watch for your reaction to what they said. I have seen more black women miss this one.

White guys tend to do a lot of testing before they move in.

 SirLoinDeBeef  thecrazyartist  diamondgal 

I would miss and probably have already missed BOTH of those subtle cues. I' not even sure I know how to do all of that and that's probably why I and other black women miss out. 

 astringofpearls  SirLoinDeBeef  thecrazyartist  diamondgal Look at it this way.  White guys court like they're playing tennis. They serve. You return. They hit the ball back only just short of where they hit before.  You return.  They hit it  again even shorter than the last time.  You return. This goes on until he has you up against the net.

Game. Set. Match.

 astringofpearls  thecrazyartist  SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal 

"I would miss and probably have already missed BOTH of those subtle cues. I' not even sure I know how to do all of that and that's probably why I and other black women miss out."

Like anything else its a learned skill.  I grew up around a lot of whites.  That how I picked it up.

 Brenda55  That would require a kind of 'paying attention' that most BW aren't used to. I think knowing the ways that WM approach and knowing why they do it would help them. It also had to do with when BW get approached by BM or HM they don't talk about the weather so when hearing someone talk about the weather.. it can be a bit weird. Like WTH is he talking about? Who does this? Know I know why they do that. 

I think some BW don't want to look dumb. What if black women are flirting but don't get the response they hoped for? And if they did get a response, they probably won't understand it. 

 astringofpearls True.  You are dealing with a different culture.

If you look at it even people who don't speak each other's language well or fully  understand each other's cultures manage to get together so it is not impossible. 

Like I said I lived, went to school and worked around whites. Saw how the guys stepped to girls/women they likes. Recognized the moves it when it was directed at me.

Observation will teach you a lot.

 astringofpearls "What if black women are flirting but don't get the response they hoped for? "

You need to rethink the response you are hoping for. They are not going to respond like black guys.

 astringofpearls 

Here is black guys

http://ww2.valdosta.edu/~trlockler/11949855961746203850arrow-right-blue_benji_p_01.svg.hi.png

Here is white guys. 

http://marcinmadison.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/blue-green-spiral-wallpaper.jpg

 Brenda55  See that's the thing also. I don't want them to respond like black guys, and I'm pretty sure other BW don't either. I think observing will help all that. And then when you put yourself into it you can go from there and whatever goes from there. I'm actually not sure what response I would want. LOL Just nothing weird or vulgar. Maybe instead of wondering it would just be easier to just get out there?

 Brenda55 

"[Black guy graphic and White Guy graphic]"

Here is Asian guys:

http://www.stickandcaneshop.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/AAAA_tartan.jpg

Like Noah Cross [John Huston] said in the film, "You may think you know what you're dealing with, but, believe me, you don't. "

[...forget it, Jake; it's Chinatown....] LOL

 Law Wanxi 

I know better. 

Every Asian man I have ever met was more like this:

http://www.splodgeimages.co.uk/images/2008DI03391a.JPG

@SirLoinDeBeef Very interesting! I didn't think about that. But now that I think about it, seems like most feminists are majority white. I guess wm do have a lot to lose with being too forward. But why is it that ww are VERY forward with men? Particularly black. Trust me, I have a good amount of ww friends.

 diamondgal  SirLoinDeBeef WW have nothing to loose 'courting' BM - just don't haven any kids - after all, they don't need to marry until their mid 30's - then, just move to a different location/city and she's all-but-virgin for the corporate guy with the most power, money and position.

Hope I don't sound too cynical.

 SirLoinDeBeef  diamondgal 

"WW have nothing to loose 'courting' BM - just don't haven any kids - after all, they don't need to marry until their mid 30's - then, just move to a different location/city and she's all-but-virgin for the corporate guy with the most power, money and position.

Hope I don't sound too cynical."

You don't sound nearly cynical enough. You sound almost naïve. You left out the part where the WW longs for the BM off-da-chain sex and does that WW Sexual Hypergamy routine where she either goes back to the original BM or finds another one to fill up her, uh, needs.

If she's smart a WW will spunk out a couple of brats as Income Anchor Babies and then just spend years of nooners and trysts with the BM until the rapid aging WW are subject to catch up with her and she's too old for the game and spends the declining years with the WM, dreaming of the BM in a nice retirement setting.

If she's stupid, she cleans out the WM and heads out with the BM. If she's reaaallllyy stupid and greedy, she and some unreliable hitter the BM knows [and since thug sex is the best sex, he knows a few] whack the WM for the whole inheritance and insurance money. Cops may not be Nobel Prize candidates, but they're not stupid. It doesn't end well. 

I've seen all three scenarios play out. I was having a convo with a couple of other Chinese guys and one of them had a cousin who was all head-over-heels with a WW. One dude says to the cousin-having guy, "Well, you know she's screwing a Black Guy". The cousin guy says "How do you know that???" and the answer back was "They all do it." 

 SirLoinDeBeef 

Cosign 100 times on the sexual harassment thing, with the provision that we include Asian men also. Actually, I think an Asian male might 'get away' with even less than White men. The cardinal rule is that 'if he's cute, it isn't harassment'. Asian guys are not cute in the way American women define it. Ask Dr. Konizawa.

He's back, BTW. Funny article or at least the title is: http://bigthink.com/e-pur-si-muove/the-return-of-the-ugly-racist-pseudoscientist-with-a-small-penis

As much as you and all of us object to what he said about Black women, we all know he was spot on about Asian men in the USA. In Asian countries, not so much; in fact Black men are at the bottom in those countries. 

Black, Hispanic and Indian men are darkly handsome and very sexual and sexually self-confident. White men possess perceived power and are attractive on that basis. Asian males have none of the above, save a few who have just money and even they nothing else to offer besides that. 

So, I perceive all female employees like office equipment or furniture to stave off any form of harassment suit. I never smile at them. I never comment on how they look. I never show any interest in their lives or relationship status. If the topic of relationships comes up or, God Forbid, they show any interest in me, I pause the conversation, give them that slightly disdainful Chinese Man Cold Look, followed by at least 5 seconds of silence and then I resume the conversation back before the error on their part. Repeat offenders are counselled about 'how to interact with me' by a senior woman staff person, our Financial Director. One of the worst ones was very interested in going out with me. She was a poor performer at work and I could see through that gold-digging, play for pay ruse. Who the hell did she think she was fooling? Fourth offence and she was gone the same day. I do not tolerate liars in the staff, period.

So that's my history on the topic. It's OK for Black guys and Hispanic guys to hit on women because the women want that. White men, not so much and Asian men not at all. End.

 Law Wanxi  SirLoinDeBeef 

I cannot argue with any of your points.  I fact the subject came up moments after I met my husband.

I have told this story before.  He had ducked into the office I was working in looking for my boss.  She was not in but was out on one of the floors and in order to assist him in finding her I described her outfit , mentioning that she had on black tights.

Keith responded something to the effect "Ummmm black tights."  wiggling his eyebrows, chuckling and then left to go find my boss.  He made a u turn and came back into the office and apologized for that remark.

I asked him what for?  I thought  his actions were funny and no big deal then told him that this whole politically correctness thing went too far sometimes. He said that he has never been politically correct.  The rest is history. 

White men and as you report Asian men  have been trained to error on the side of being extra cautious so they do not step to women directly.  They usually do a lot of "feeling out" of the situation  by sending subtle cues first before they make an approach. Most black women cannot read and thus do not pick up on their cues so miss out on a potential relationship.

 Law Wanxi Wishing I could disagree, but I think you are spot on - plus, both WM and Asian men are perceived to have $$, and thus are targets - as a WM in a female profession (speech pathology), I too, had to learn that co-workers were furniture - even so, superiors would often act out revenge fantasies on my poor psyche - retired 10 years, and the memories still hurt.

 Browncow "you'll be kicking yourself in the butt over all the potentially wonderful relationships you missed because you were . . . . too absorbed in your own community (spiritual, racial, or otherwise) to see that someone could be good for you."

Your entire response was great, but this sentence really resonated with me. So many women are withering on the vine because of this type of tunnel vision and short sightedness.

@Browncow: "you'll be kicking yourself in the butt over all the potentially wonderful relationships you missed because you were . . . . too absorbed in your own community (spiritual, racial, or otherwise) to see that someone could be good for you." Me: And here is the thing, I imagine there might well have been men in the same spiritual or racial community who might have been dating women from outside the group, whether on the side or openly. They would have been open to the possibilities whatever they became, a fling, a dating relationship, etc.

 Browncow Your story is exactly what I am talking about with white men and how they pursue . Exactly..  This guy drove to the mall three times to see you and talk to you.

 He purposely did not buy anything.  That would have signaled to you that he had a girlfriend. He was letting you know that you were the focus of his visits to the store. 

You were not interested  and when you did not call he got the message and moved on. No loss no foul. If you were interested the ball was in your court to call and then let him arrange the first date with you setting the parameters for where and when to match your comfort level when going out with a new guy. .

 Browncow Drawing from Ian Fleming's book, Goldfinger, he had the bad character say, "the first encounter is happenstance; the second is coincidence; third time is enemy action!" - similarly, in pre-dating a WM, if he devises (or just happens to be there) on the 3rd time, he's interested and pursuing - you now have a real-but-fleeting moment to respond positively.

IMHO, very few WM will pursue past a 4th encounter with no 'positive feedback'.

Regrettably, for the Blackastani-trained BW, with her utterly-necessary ice-queen-armor up and ready at all times, these apparently-casual  'encounters' fly right past her ... or, worse, are deflected with the NBAB attitudes and behaviors.

A WM willing to undergo that treatment time after time is more than likely either a masochist or a player with a hidden agenda.