Why <em>I</em> don’t call myself a “feminist” (and probably never will…)

Why I don’t call myself a “feminist” (and probably never will…)

“I want no part of any group, system or structure that sells the lie of being equal partners in striving to overcome inequality and oppression while that supposed ally is also standing on my neck.”

Author : Toni

Author's Website | Articles from

Author’s Note: I know the title alone is going to upset some people. I know persons are going to come flocking into this post to try and “educate” me and assume I know nothing about feminism and how I’m drawing negative connotations thanks to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. NOPE. I am speaking from my own experiences, observations, and conversations. This is about me and at no point am I advocating anyone else think like me. If you want to follow a concept, do it for your own reasons and not because of what someone else says or thinks. 

I already anticipate the complete ignoring of my thoughts and feelings that are typical of feminist backlash at this point. It ALWAYS happens when a black woman expresses her anger at the feminist cause, however valid that anger may be. She is told at some point to “sit down and shut up for the sake of ‘the cause’”. Any black woman trying to convince me otherwise  (1) has not been exposed to white-privilege centered feminism long enough (2) never had any intention of representing their interests as a black woman, and thus have been spared that hurtful experience (3) it already happened and they missed it or (4) they’re too busy doing it to others to appreciate the irony.

But, I don’t care what the race of the person is who rushes in and tries to “shh” me. Not gonna happen. This post will stand, as will my feelings whether you like them or not. And if you don’t like them, perhaps that energy can be applied to appreciating  how the badly movement deals with the issues and concerns of women who are of color rather than acting like the problems and issues are just with these women, are all in their heads, and that the bigger issue is them “not offering their unconditional support”.

Thanks.

 

 

I’ve tried to write this article a couple of times and both times I backed down. It’s not a comfortable thing to express as a woman who holds ideals that are very much feminist at heart. And yet I want nothing to do with the feminist movement. I do not call myself a feminist. And odds are, so long as certain attitudes prevail, never will.

 

Why would any woman who believes in freedom, choice, and equality for all women not want to be part of the feminist movement? Well, I think I pretty much answered my question: I believe very strongly in these things. And because I do, I will not consider myself part of anything that I feel does not fully represent those ideals for ALL women as claimed.

All women, and not primarily just white, upper middle class and educated women. And anyone who honestly thinks that there is no hierarchy in that order regarding representation of the interests of women when it relates to feminism is far less cynical and jaded than myself.

 

For my part, I have found time and time again that feminism as a movement has me on a “waiting list”.

 

I would not be crossing the “equality” finish line with the other victors. No, I would have to get mine after someone else gets their’s first.  Black women, you will get your equality, dignity, and respect when white women get theirs…maybe. And I’m sure there are black feminists now who are shaking their heads and believing the opposite. Welcome to the hell of intersectionality: If you aren’t getting it from one group, you’re getting it from another. And if you’re a black woman, you’re probably actually getting it from all of sides.

You’ve just decided that for the sake of your own sanity, you’ll consider the bigotry, discrimination, and invisibility you have to put up with from one group less harmful than from others. You’ve just weighed a part of your soul and decided that you won’t miss it as much as the the other parts. But that doesn’t change the fact that a part of your soul is now missing.

Perhaps I should use an example of what I’m talking about for people who don’t get it and who scoff at what I’ve just said.

 

At the time when I had previously considered submitting this post, I’d gotten into a brief argument with a young woman about the problematic statement of a particular white feminist by the name of Camille Paglia. The white feminist in question was hating on a series of current women pop artists, and how negatively their image was impacting young women today. I thought she made a couple of good points. However, at the close of the article, she lost me entirely. Paglia ended with a lament that went, and I quote:

 

Middle-class white girls will never escape the cookie-cutter tyranny of their airless ghettos until the entertainment industry looks into its soul and starts giving them powerful models of mature womanliness.’

 

And it was the sentence where myself and other women of color went, “Oh look, yet another white feminist carrying on about themselves and acting like WOC don’t exist, and neither do our concerns or problems.”

 

What got me though was that even though some white feminists expressed understanding at the reasons why some black women were reluctant to have anything to do with feminism, you had other women who thought that the anger that non-white women were expressing at being blatantly ignored was “a distraction” and that there were “bigger fish to fry”. Yes, let’s completely ignore the underlying classist and racist implications of that phrase and the ideology it represents.

Because when black women join someone else’s cause, no matter what criticisms they put forth, there’s always something more important than what they have to say on the matter.

 

And this got to me because this seemed to be the much more common narrative when it comes to white women feminists and the concerns and anger of black women.

 

A situation I’m still desperately trying to forget ever being made aware of went down in 2008. And if you can believe it, I am actually NOT addressing the ugly tug of war that had black women being blatantly expected to choose between their gender and race in the political primaries (because how else DO we make our decisions?!). No, I’m talking about a situation so ugly, one young white feminist had to write a PSA telling other white feminists just how badly they are bungling their relationship with women outside their precious hierarchy. What’s sad is that even though other complaints have been written by women of color regarding their treatment by white feminists, it took a white feminist trying to tell other white feminists to stop what they’re doing to get as much attention as it did (which, sadly, remains rather inadequate).

 

The wall of racial privilege that confronted me when faced with this very recent issue was the equivalent of “Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here.” I do not begrudge black women who charge ahead anyway, believing that they can encourage and educate feminists as a whole regarding THEIR unique issues, and that these things will one day be given equal weight.  But I have increasingly been overcome with a sense of  ”not for me, not about me, no thanks” when it comes to the feminist movement. And I’m not fighting or denying this feeling anymore. I’m done.

 

And the more I looked around, the more I found the sentiments expressed here about the anger and sadness of WOC was not at all rare. One only had to glance at the wiki for Womanism and why it exists to understand how utterly ignored black woman have always been by the white-centric feminist movement.

 

Well, except for certain situations where certain feminists feel perfectly comfortable co-opting our situation as black women and making it about themselves.

 

And I’m talking about a big ugly portion of the backlash related to “No Wedding, No Womb”.

 

First and foremost, even though it’s not my movement or concept, after looking it over I think I can safely say no-wedding-no-womb is not and has never been directed at or ever about white women. Nevertheless, leave it to white privilege to make a door where there isn’t one.

A privileged group has no qualms about coming into a conversation that’s not about them and either making it about their thoughts and feelings, telling that group how they ought to think and feel or both.

Privilege means shaming and talking over the disenfranchised group from your ivory tower where you know damn well that their problems are not your problems because you never intended to make them your problems and certainly never to help alleviate them. And that’s something I’ve observed as it relates to this situation, and the audacity would have been shocking if I didn’t already know the mindset of the people involved.

 

How can white women who have never existed in an ethnic group where pervasive OOWness was a massive problem, fix their mouths to preach to someone about the validity of their cause? Especially while not bothering drumming up a serious campaign regarding a sensible alternative (being a mule for the black community is not a sensible alternative, thanks) to help these women out of their situation? Oh, and don’t look to these women to do so, not with any mass motivation. If you exist in a structure that appreciates a caste system that you are not at the bottom of, why break your neck to lift others out of those systems?

How else could such persons totally overlook the irony of the fact that there are VALID arguments that the white racist patriarchy, through the institution of slavery, helped established this norm among the poor and uneducated black population? The very SAME white racist patriarchy that has largely gone out of its way to shield and protect the majority of white women from the sort of destitution suffered by black women as a result of a crumbling black family structure among the increasingly permanent black underclass?! Yes, the very same evil patriarchy that allows many of the white feminists to have achieved the wealth, privilege, and power that has moved white women as far forward as they have come, inarguably much further than other groups of women further down the hierarchy ladder that we aren’t supposed to acknowledge as existing.

 

And even worse, you have some black feminists volunteering as battering rams for these women to beat down the doors of this particular cause, and so many black woman-centric causes; because what can black women achieve on their own that doesn’t somehow need the opinion and blessing of educated well-to-do white women?

Yes, black women came charging in to spout white-centric feminist jargon about how telling black women they should reserve their wombs for a worthy man (rather than any random and questionable black man that comes along) was somehow backwards and wrong. Because marriage is about “being property”, overrated  and archaic, and yadda yadda yadda.

 

*heavy sigh*

 

Now,  I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of research. I am more than aware of many out-dated and harmful ideologies that modern marriage evolved out of. For example, did you know that the “best man” was a role born out of a guy helping the groom kidnap his unwilling bride-to-be? Nothing says bros-for-life quite like, “I trust you to help me stuff my future wife into an empty sack”. But then, why am I expected to remember uncomfortable relics as it relates to the institution of marriage? At least more so than uncomfortable relics of a time when many white women owned black women and treated them like furniture? Even today I’m supposed to skate over this fact because “white women were victims, too.”

 

Everyone’s a victim, it seems. White women feminists are victims. Male black right’s activists are victims. Both groups are crying out to black women to drop everything and come running. Both groups have made their own concerns their chief priority. Both promising in so many words that when they get theirs, the benefits will “trickle down” to black women. We are, according to these groups, EQUALLY beat down. By racism or sexism, and so we both should be allies.

So they each offer up a pill, one red and one blue. The red pill makes black women forget everything about racism and focus on fighting the Patriarchy. The blue pill makes black women forget any desire to be respected as a woman by black men and instead throw our support behind fighting “The Man”.

 

Both pills are placed before me, and I must understand that no matter which pill I were to take:

- I will not be the face of the cause, as it’s not my cause. I’m merely a “recruit”.

- I should sit on my concerns and anger because these things will derail from focus on overcoming “the enemy”.

- My time may or may not come, but at least I’ll feel the warm glow of someone else getting ahead…even if I’m not sharing equally with their achievement and rewards. There’s the pat on the head to look forward to. Maybe.

 

You know what? I fully acknowledge that both sexism AND racism exist in this world. I have been hit on the head with both, and while some people may feel comfortable looking at the mirror trying to determine which lump is bigger, I am not interested in pretending like someone didn’t hit me on the head! I will NOT be taking any “pills” and calling anyone in the morning!

I fully believe that alliances are EARNED and you don’t get to call yourself my ally and then hit me on the freaking head with your privilege. You don’t get to tell me to sit down and shut up because my unhappiness with how you go about doing things is taking away focus from “your glorious cause”. And you don’t get to use black feminists as a buffer for doing so. Because the answer is the same whether it’s white feminists or their black feminist mouth-pieces: I want no part of your bullshit.

 

I think purporting to be about anything other than yourself is bullshit. I think that is what makes me so angry when it comes to feminism and me as a black woman: I’ve seen this shit before. I’ve had this lie sold to me before, only it was by black men. And the driving force has always been, in my mind, a bridge built to black women on the basis of victimhood, pain, and suffering. Of unfairness and anger. This, I feel, allows black women to be better manipulated into being someone else’s toy soldier, side-kick, and mouth-piece. We are moving forward with our feelings, rather than our brains. When you are moving based on logic, you are moving with a mind that thinks and asks questions. And when you are a thinking and questioning human being, it becomes harder for someone to sell you a sob story based on emotions and have that be enough to justify why they’re much closer to the goal line than you are.

 

And it is on that  note, I must close.

 

Until such time as I feel that the feminist movement isn’t just a red herring for white women trying to get extra white people privileges, I want no part of it. Until such time as I stop seeing it a sucky alternative to being on the back burner of the male-centic black right’s movement, I want no part of it. I want no part of any group, system or structure that sells the lie of being equal partners in striving to overcome inequality and oppression while that supposed ally is also standing on my neck. Some black women can say, “At least this group isn’t pressing on my windpipe with quite the force of the alternative group.” I just can’t.

I won’t call myself a feminist so long as I feel that the feminist movement itself is about something other than what the heart of feminism claims. I will not get myself wrapped up with or confused with such persons, and I have no time for disclaimers and differentiating myself from this or the other group of hypocrites. I have no time for rationalizations, expectations, and especially the idea that it’s on ME to educate and convince and change this group, rather than they do it themselves. I have no time to wait on other people getting around to me and my issues. It is not in me to be paralyzed and waiting for someone else to validate my right to be free and happy.

 

I’d rather make my own path and own way. I am not anti-feminism. I just am not interested being sold a leaky bucket.

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futureshock 263 pts

I am a white woman and have been a feminist for decades.  I have recently begun having thoughts similar to yours about giving up the title of feminist, and we share some of the reasons:  I am pro-marriage and also disagree with this sentiment:

 

"Yes, black women came charging in to spout white-centric feminist jargon about how telling black women they should reserve their wombs for a worthy man (rather than any random and questionable black man that comes along) was somehow backwards and wrong. Because marriage is about “being property”, overrated  and archaic, and yadda yadda yadda."

 

I am a strong supporter of NWNW and I believe it can make a positive impact on the lives of women of all races.

new shoes 97 pts

I'm lowering my head out of respect and awe. You've put into words everything I've ever wanted to say, and everything I've  ever felt.

onmywayup 1919 pts

 new shoes I like your username!

starzzzy 475 pts

I don't consider myself a feminist mainly because feminism was born from white privilege and to me it will always be associated with white privilege. It is easy to be a feminist when you are not dealing with all the other trials and issues of being a woman of color. I don't need the "feminist" title be interested in the empowerment of Black women. Although I know a little about the feminist movement and even a little about feminist counseling, I do need to educate myself a little more. I heard bell hooks speak a few months ago and she definitely sparked my interest in the meaning of feminism.

thecrazyartist 2423 pts

I think that feminism just doesn't get it in a lt of cases(as evidenced with the no wedding no womb backlash). Feminist can write it off as "slut shaming" as much as they want rather than face reality, lets be honest black women have never been "the damsel in distress", they have never been "oppressed as stay at home moms", the OOW rate is staggering, and while the "feminist" may not agree with marriage,marriage rates for black women are dismal.    

 

The anti IRR rhetoric is also rampant on sites like jezebel,  the same "no one wants you" message is re-packaged as concern. 

 

Avoc42883 1269 pts

 thecrazyartist I think part of the problem is that the "keep your legs closed" religious types who have missed the point are cosigning this message and feminists (often atheists) used them as an example of the whole movement, completely missing the core message.    Just because something can be misinterpreted doesn't mean it's not valid.

 

Also I've noticed in feminist spaces like Jezebel, a lot of the anti IRR sentiment tends to be directed at Asian women and white men.  I feel like unless those sorts of spaces actually have a black writer or a black contributer they ignore black women altogether and only pay attention to the ones they have to notice (eg. Michelle Obama). 

 

 

BeautyIAM 1409 pts

 Avoc42883  thecrazyartist 

 

"Also I've noticed in feminist spaces like Jezebel, a lot of the anti IRR sentiment tends to be directed at Asian women and white men.  I feel like unless those sorts of spaces actually have a black writer or a black contributer they ignore black women altogether and only pay attention to the ones they have to notice (eg. Michelle Obama)."

 

Good observation. That of course is white privilege. Not having to talk about race UNTIL a person of color enters the conversation. If its just white people in the conversation, I doubt race enters the conversation.

iHeartLove 805 pts

"The thing of it is I think feminism as an ideal is absolutely essential. It's the movement that bugs me. " - Toni

 

"So in other words, I don't have to be a feminist to feel passionate about women's rights and concerns or a member of the NAACP to fight for civil righst for ALL." - mzsunshine

 

These are statements I can agree with.

 

But we have to be very explicit about separating the MESSAGE and the MOVEMENT. 

annemeeks 34 pts

I have to start out by saying I love this website, Just love it. There are many reason I do not consider myself a feminist and this article points most of them out. I am so happy to see other people share my same opinion. I also want to recognize that  feminist groups do not seem to recognize the contribution black women have made to our society as a whole and that they have benifitted greatly from. Just wanted to say again how much I enjoy reading the articles from this site. :-)

Brenda55 21018 pts moderator

My dear Lady A

 

"So how do black women fair in a society where she has not said "Leg to stand on"?"

 

Don't know about you but my legs are supporting me just fine. So has my God given talents, hard work tenacity, resilience.

 

I don't sell myself so short.

 

“We don't and have never benefitted from white female feminism”

 

True. So let Miss Ann do her thing and we do our own thing heh?

 

“We don't and have never benefitted from male patriarchy”

 

True. So lets eliminate the middle woman and work out our own deals, partnership and alliances. I mean there are opportunities to be had since a certain subset of women who want to do battle with men. I think that there are much better things to do with them.

 

“Being that we're BLACK and WOMEN it's pretty much a lost cause. What can black women do because obviously our options are limited.”

 

Ahhh so that is the toxic code by which you live your life. If that works for you then fine but most of us here know better and will leave you to your life of limitations and disappointment. The rest of us are getting about building the best lives our talents will gain for us. We will walk around you as we walk buy.

 

 

 

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 Brenda55 Thank you for your comment. I suspect it was heavy sarcasm because nowhere in my piece did I claim black women didn't have a leg to stand on. I actually said: 

 

"It is not in me to be paralyzed and waiting for someone else to validate my right to be free and happy."

 

In the comments I said:

 

"People don't necessarily have time to wait around for someone else to label them according to what they feel they need to do."

 

 

I don't know if this was a sour suggestion that black women are patheticly helpless if they aren't lending themselves to someone else's cause or a projection signifying the problem that occurs when a black woman is expected to wait for a group to validate who she is and what her purpose is before she gets to move.

 

I don't have that issue, so I have no clue.

 

Brenda55 21018 pts moderator

 Toni_M "I suspect it was heavy sarcasm "

Did not read that way to me hence my response. Time will tell.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

I like this, as I always say self-interest equals self-love.

So how do black women fair in a society where she has not said "Leg to stand on"?

 

We don't and have never benefitted from white female feminism

 

We don't and have never benefitted from male patriarchy

 

Being that we're BLACK and WOMEN it's pretty much a lost cause. What can black women do because obviously our options are limited.

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

There is never a lost cause, because nowhere in the rules did it ever say that black women have to fall in line with white female feminism or black male patriarchy. The bottom line is these people won't fight for us because they are two busy fighting for themselves. But who said that we could not fight for ourselves. Black women who separate themselves from both and become concerned about their own well being find a sense of freedom, confidence, and will power, that allows them to pressure on and create for them the lives they desire, among all the narcissistic nonsense of factions that as far as I'm concerned are flailing for relevance themselves. Women, black women, who are less concerned with "the cause" whatever it may be, and are more concerned with themselves and theres seem to fair better overall anyway. Just take a look around this site at the many glorious examples.

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

"I don't see how this is any different from changing the mindsets of people who view BW negatively, which is what most of us do in our everyday lives."

 

Except this pretends that all women who post/comment here put the opinions of others about us at the forefront of their daily lives. This is simply not the case. Last time I checked, the idea was promote black women LIVING and LIVING WELL. The pathways behind the idea of living well often does not walk in lockstep with feminist thinking, at least where self-appointed authorities on what's best for other women are concerned. A woman desiring to live in a nice house and be well taken care of? A dose of smelling salts may be needed. At least if you are a feminist with the PRIVILEGE of coming from a background where it was an honor for women to work outside the home. Meanwhile no high-fives were given to the black maid scrubbing the floor, the latest in a long line of black women who had to work to survive and support their families. 

 

Black women have always been trail-blazers, fighters, odds-defiers, champions, daring, and even when not acknowledged by the feminist establishment. Even BEFORE the feminist establishment.

 

So the way I see it, the focus doesn't necessarily need to be on anyone going out of anyone's way to change the minds of skeptical WOC regarding why feminism is necessary to black women. Because black women have been doing their thing before anyone got the idea in their head that we couldn't do it unless we slapped feminist in front of us. 

 

Again, this energy should be invested by the main feminist establishment on correcting itself, rather than simply assuming the opinions of everyone with issues need to be corrected. 

 

 

simpleebisou 128 pts

Forgive me because I have yet to read all the comment (which I will), but have you check out any "womanist" reading?  Womanism is the AA Female answer to Feminism.  If you're interested, check out "Sisters in the Wilderness.  It's an old book, but a good read.  I did some undergraduate research on womanism and it confirmed a lot of things that you are saying and how black females were and are shut out of the feminist movement and cannot identify with it.

 

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

simpleebisou

 I'm still trying to determine if it is it's own movement or whether or not it's a niche existing within feminism. It seems to focus on black women on its own a great deal, which is good. 

 

I will definitely check out "Sisters in the Wilderness", thanks!

 

Allylaura 36 pts

The way I see it, it's easy to point to the extremist of a group, ME to educate and convince and change this group, rather than they do it themselves. "ex: I don't see how this is any different from changing the mindsets of people who view BW negatively, which is what most of us do in our everyday lives.

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 Allylaura It's not about extremes. In fact I watched a "radfem" black feminist attack another feminist who was black and walked away from feminism because unlike her she had navigated to the fringes where REAL equality was to be had. Extreme, mainstream, it makes no difference in my mind when it comes to feminism. She put it better than I ever could, so I'll just quote her response to being called out on walking away.

 

"

Both radical feminists and traditional feminists have remained silent on how you all benefit from white male paternalism and the otherness of women of color. Your rant in this post--and refusal to address that glaring fact--is a prime example of the defensiveness many white feminists have when their hypocrisy is dissected. 

 

White feminists rarely do not complain about the sexism directed towards black women. Where were the white feminists when Michelle Obama has been relentlessly attacked by Rush Limbaugh and other right wingers? Where were the white feminists when that black woman with special needs in Kentucky was held captive and repeatedly sexually assaulted, only to have her story denied? Where were the white feminists when the media dogged the black woman who accused some of the Duke lacrosse players of rape? You were silent then. 

 

White feminists only speak out against the rape and degradation of black women when it benefits them or when it's the popular thing to do. Dominique Strauss-Kahn is the shining example of this. He represented wealth, and had repeated sexual harassment charges towards him, so he fit the bill as someone white feminists would love to hate

 

[...]

 

Her entire post as to why she at that point no longer calls herself a feminist is here:

 

http://newblackwoman.com/2011/12/03/i-am-no-longer-a-feminist/

 

I don't agree with everything she wrote but I couldn't help but note that I drew certain conclusions in an eerily similar fashion to this person, despite never having called myself a feminist.

 

uninterracial 987 pts

Toni, I’m with you.  As a black who almost had a minor in women’s studies and married into a family of white feminists, I can tell you I can’t identify with feminism at all. Reading bell hooks pretty much opened my eyes to how lopsided feminism is in regard to black women as well as my own experiences with my in-laws. We simply don’t have the same struggles.

To be blond and blue eyed white in this world is of great privilege and prestige. I know here in California, it’s what most white women want to be or have when they give birth, little “tow heads”.  My SIL is a prime example. A beautiful B/B who was an ultra-feminist turned lesbian, then bi-sexual, then straight. Lives with a drug dealer (pot grower, but still a drug) for years and doesn’t tell most of the family although we already knew and acts like a victim when he didn’t want to marry her after being with her for 5 years . Family gives her money to move out (she’s 30ish with a job and substantial savings) and actually helps her physically move. But she gets a pass from everyone and gets a fully paid lavish wedding when she does find her dream guy.

My husband and I were just in awe of it all but he says she’s always gotten away with things because she was a cute little blond girl. I simply couldn’t believe it but now looking at it, you have to wonder. So yeah, I can’t relate to their “struggles”. I think it’s a big joke.

Statuesque 2074 pts

This is a powerful article and your sentiments are spot-on. This whole "neither fish nor fowl" feeling is something that likely resonates with many WOC giving the side-eye to their ethnic opposite gender folks and the White same-gender folks who wish to enlist the mules for pack duty. I see my particular concerns about the state of women in the world quite separately from the upper middle class White female struggle for "more white people privileges" (love that!). I call myself a feminist for the same reasons I call myself Black: using an easy short descriptor that can never accurately define the real complexities in my personal identity, but that recognizes certain realities of the world we live in. We live in a world in which the lives of girls and women are not worth those of men and boys, just as we live in a world where being of visible African descent is highly problematic. Really, I don't pay much attention to people/perspectives that have nothing to offer me. I guess it's my age. I have found my life is much more pleasant as a result. That's why using the term "feminist" doesn't give me heartburn. I feel as though I am not with stupid when I use it because I cannot relate to those broads anyway.

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

It's quite hilarious how, just as you mention Toni, white feminism and black male civil rights are quite similar. In essence, they do not promote equality, but rather promote either white women or black men as the heads of the new world order, if you really think about it. They are actually akin to the game, and very well know that they only way they will get things the way they want it is if they are calling the shots. If feminism and civil rights were actually to pan out how their head hunters would like, it would not be a revolution, but rather a paradigm shift of who is in power and who is oppressed. 

 

To segue slightly for a moment… 

 

Often I go on tumblr and see these white feminists promoting misandry (the male equivalent to misogyny). Do you know how they do this, by going to male strip clubs and crying, "misandry!" I'm sitting there like, and excuse my French, but, really bitch? Because you doing to a male strip club once is going to overturn centuries of female exploitation. It's going to go against the men that have standing dates at strip clubs. It's going to change thoughts of men with true misogyny in their hearts that want to do real damage to women. It's going to change the fact that with representations of strip clubs in the media, you've got 'The Players Club' going against 'Magic Mike.'

 

http://25.media.tumblr.com/1756f0ad6edec7fa6c93dbbe33b44a18/tumblr_mfduu8Zmko1s14diso1_400.gif

 

Now back on topic… 

 

As Toni explained how both factions deal with black women, they are not apart of the group, but rather a latent subsection. White feminists say to black women, let us be in the forefront. When we get our rights, then we will pass them on to you. But where have we heard that from before? In the same way that white feminists talk about young white females being subject to the "ghetto" atrocities of pop culture, while for money young black females, it is not only pop culture, but their actual lives - do black male civil rights leaders not choose only males as poster boys for racial injustice, i.e., Trayvon Martin, while countless black girls and women continue to be silently victimized each day.

 

From black men telling black women, sit and be patient, be complacent, submit. And when I'm finished running around and doing what I want, then I will come back and get you and we will both live "equally" in bliss. Only after I have fulfilled all of my desires will I exalt you as my wife, and as my partner in the racial struggle.

 

And haven't we even just recently finished hearing this same shpeel from the GOP, saying, give us the power, and we will take care of everyone… but you know, just hold a minute, while we continue to take care of ourselves first. Because you know we won't be able to promise a stitch of progress until we are first comfortable with our share. 

 

I am convinced that there is absolutely no one in this world that really wants equality. Equality is just a thinly veiled term for, move over, its my turn now to treat you as badly as you've treated me. And all the while note how black women have absolutely not leg to stand on in this race. 

 

That is what is wrong with all of these factions. All of them simply want to over throw the white man and take his place. I'd bet money that if feminism and black male civil rights were to get things just how they want it, they would soon be at each others throats for whom would reign supreme. And then, I wonder who the docile, subservient women will be. 

 

tracyreneejones 4098 pts

 VintageNarcissa the docile subservient are black low income males...house husbands aka the Thor wielding black men as nuevo trophy husbands. 

Hmm I have to disagree. I for one don't label myself anything but I am against patriarchy, sexism and misogyny because none of those things have benefitted women let alone black women in any fashion. You don't have to label yourself anything you don't want to to fight for women's rights be it socially or politically. What black women have to realize is that going against feminism doesn't help as much as most assume going for it doesn't. I have to admit there's a lot of black women looking into to feminism which isn't a bad thing, I think women need to have their own identification of what they consider feminism and the movement. There are women in countries across the seas who would trade places with most of us in a heartbeat, and are over there "JUST NOW" fighting for their rights as women. We have a incident overseas in the middle east where a woman was raped and died, so I will never write off women's right to label themselves feminist for whatever reason they choose to. I also will not write off the women who are against it and choose to adhere to traditional gender roles in society as they feel more comfortable doing. I'm against gender roles, gender bias and male patriarchy, sexism and misogyny. I Despise and loathe all of the above. But whatever you want to label yourself should be for your reason and your reason only.

Browncow 1618 pts

"We have a incident overseas in the middle east where a woman was raped and died,..."

The woman wasn't from the Middle East, she was from India and it took place in New Delhi. India is in South Asia, not the Middle East. Not trying to be snarky, I just want the facts about this brutal assault to be correct. :)

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

" We have a incident overseas in the middle east where a woman was raped and died"

 

The thing of it is, there are women AND men out in the streets protesting over that. Men and women and children of all ages. And they didn't ask for permission of feminists to do it. 

 

One of the major weaknesses of Western feminism is that there is this unchecked idea that (1) opposition to fall out from woman hating behaviors has to wait for feminism to speak up on it (which, unless there is a lot of publicity rarely happens when it involves WOC [see "Missing White Woman Syndrome"] or (2) completely underestimates the ability of local persons to step up to the plate without being lead by "Western" (read: white) examples and opinion.

 

I don't need the feminist label to do anything. Neither do the people rioting right now in India, demanding change. 

 

People don't necessarily have time to wait around for someone else to label them according to what they feel they need to do, especially from an ethnocentric point of view. Western feminism is EXTREMELY ethnocentric, in addition to the issues I mentioned.

 

Issues which are my own, and whether or not people agree or disagree is up to them. As I said, I don't begrudge any other black woman the label of feminist. It's a movement that's not for me.

onmywayup 1919 pts

 Toni_M "People don't necessarily have time to wait around for someone else to label them according to what they feel they need to do, especially from an ethnocentric point of view. Western feminism is EXTREMELY ethnocentric, in addition to the issues I mentioned."

 

I also observed this while in college. One of my interests was women's rights activism in developing countries such as India and a couple of sub-Saharan African countries...I cannot count the number of times I heard from one of the white women also studying the same thing that what people in other countries were fighting for "wasn't real feminism" because it did not align exactly with certain principles of Western (white women) feminism. And there was definitely this attitude of "someone needs to go over there and show them what *real* feminism is"...maybe not in those exact words, but the sentiment was definitely expressed several times.

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 onthewaydown UGH...

Suburban Soulgirl 254 pts

I don't call myself a feminist either, and haven't for a very long time.  I have nothing but love and respect for the feminists that fought and died so I can take advantage of the freedom that I have today as a woman.  However, I do feel that modern-day feminism is hasn't been a movement for women such as myself for a very long time.  

 

In addition, I find myself at odds with most feminists (especially in social media circles) because our philosophies clash...and I get tired of seeing other women being hen-pecked and tarred as "tools of the patriarchy" just because they don't agree with whatever nonsense they're spouting.  It's like watching a vicious high school clique in action and I want no part of that negative, toxic energy.

tracyreneejones 4098 pts

I get confused by any mention of the word feminism and critiques of the movement regarding things that involve gender identity and cultural norms. I'm so grateful that I am able to see above, through and over the bias and misunderstanding. More Black LGBT and evolving gendered people will be needed in this conversation to create a more conclusive view. That's happening at the rate of poured molasses at the North Pole. I get that standard feminism as predicated by WW may not be the space for BW to assert their position. I'm not a fan of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I disagree that there is absolutely nothing useful to be found in feminism for the purpose of establishing a voice that addresses BW's concerns.  And I totally don't get any group of women that are entirely against men. That's as bad as men who hate women but will marry and father children to serve society's expectations while abusing the family that he resents. 

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

tracyreneejones

The thing of it is I think feminism as an ideal is absolutely essential. It's the movement that bugs me. I can understand why so many black women are drawn to it and would rather build a niche or vein for themselves than to leave, because I do understand that the idea of feminism is bigger than any group, even if it is lead by a group that is content to make it 95% about themselves.

 

I think the only black feminists I shade are the ones that give me hell about not wanting to throw away a part of myself because that's what white feminists want or who mimic the very exclusionary and downright bigoted views as fed to them by prominent MAINSTREAM feminists. I'm tired of this "all the crazy bigots are on the fringe" talk. 

 

I don't shade the idea of being a black feminist, it's just not a label I want for myself. I think it's funny because much of what I am pre-occupied with a lot of the time can be construed as relevant to women's rights. I agree with another WOC who didn't come under the umbrella of the term that said she didn't need anyone else's label or approval to be about the concerns of women or whatever it was she was passionate about.

 

So I don't think it's so much about throwing away feminism entirely so much as not feeling the need to come under anyone else's umbrella and have their permission to label who you are and what you represent.

 

 

I've been reading different opinions by different black feminists, former black feminists, and WOC who state plainly why they aren't interested in the feminist movement and it's been very interesting. Also saddening because these brilliant women don't get nearly the amount of attention they deserve.

 

mzsunshine 2619 pts

 Toni_M  tracyreneejones

 I agree with another WOC who didn't come under the umbrella of the term that said she didn't need anyone else's label or approval to be about the concerns of women or whatever it was she was passionate about.

 

 

I really like that statement.  So in other words, I don't have to be a feminist to feel passionate about women's rights and concerns or a member of the NAACP to fight for civil righst for ALL.

 

I actually can just be me and still be concern for my fellow hunman being regardless of their demographics.  I like that.

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 tracyreneejones "More Black LGBT and evolving gendered people will be needed in this conversation to create a more conclusive view. That's happening at the rate of poured molasses at the North Pole."

 

I agree. 

Nonya 210 pts

 Toni_M  tracyreneejones 

I skimmed thru the article and my TLDR was: feminism in the US isn't working for all, especially AA women.

 

My take:

Like many complex issues, feminism is also contextual (affected by geography, social, economic, political, etc factors).

Like many issues, it is also often "fronted" by vocal minority that doesn't represent the diverse majority behind it.  Thus, some reject the "official banner".  Of this group, some may create other banners (XYX rights activist, "womanist"?) while others just keep it moving.  Ironically, I've also come across an increasing # of WW also rejecting the feminism banner.

 

Bottom line, we are still moving (albeit slooowly) towards a world of equal rights and acceptance for different realities: inclusion for all.  Inclusivists?

IAOSingleMoms 892 pts

THANK YOU! You said everything and more on my issues with feminism as a black woman and as a woman period. I cannot subscribe to a cause that seems to demonize men. I do appreciate what this cause has accomplished but it is seriously lacking. 

Karla 19185 pts

Glad to see that some young girls don't believe the hype.  I was born in 1959 so was about eight years old when the words "feminist" and "feminism" came to the forefront; I was old enough to be aware, to see WW burning their bras, protesting, etc.  What I remember is my mother, a physician, who laughed and said, "What the Hell is this?  BW have been 'feminists' in this country since the 1700s, when we got here as slaves.  We've been fighting for choice, freedom and equality since we got here."  Under her unintended tutelage, I just couldn't take these WW seriously.  What I knew is that no one was going to just "give" me the life I wanted.  I had to go and get it for myself and I had a plan.

 

When I got to college (Colorado State University, a predominantly White college about 20 minutes from the Wyoming/Colorado border; yes, it was on the wild frontier), they were about 10 years behind the times so "feminism" was very active.  Thankfully, I was smart enough and indoctrinated enough to see through the hype when they begged me to join their group.  They felt they needed a token to legitimize themselves and to attract more BW (the few at my college weren't interested).  I was required to take a class in Female Psychology for my major; um, yeah, that class was chock full of angry WW (no Black women but me).  Some of their anger was justified (domestic violence, campus rape) but the other stuff was so petty, as if they just wanted to start something just to get a reaction.  When I was a senior and told one of the girls in the group (she was a friend) that I was joining the Navy, she actually staged an "intervention" because they believed I was making a major error going into the "WASPian bastion of maleness and dominance" that was their idea of the military.  Wow.  I just wanted to travel, get paid, get my graduate education paid for and serve my country, just like my father had done.  At that point, I could see that, at least in this group, men were the "enemy" and I was a traitor.  Eff them.  They had no say in how I ran my life and so that was the end of any sympathy I ever had.

 

Fast forward to graduate school where one of my professors (and, eventually, my first reader for my thesis) and I were having a conversation.  He asked me if I was a feminist because here I was, holding my own in the "WASPian bastion of maleness and dominance".  I looked at him and laughed.  I asked him did he have any idea what "feminism" was as defined by WW?  He gave me a crooked smile and said, "Unfortunately, yes.  I was married to the current president of NOW; she's the mother of my sons."  I was stunned.  For two hours, I sat in his office and listened to what he had to live with before his divorce.  That, more than anything, closed any chapter that was open on American feminism.

 

I'm all about Karla-ism.  I've got to do what works for me and what suits my values.  If the feminists don't like it, think some of the things I like to do set them back 100 years, whatever, I just don't give a rat's patootie.  It seems to me that the "choice" part was thrown out with the bathwater.  I never knew they had a hierarchy and, frankly, don't care, because I made my own hierarchy.  Seriously, how does the way I live my life affect feminism, as it stands today?  I have values that are the center of my life.  That's what's most important to me.  I'm not interested in knowing what the new and current tenants of "feminism" are.  By virtue of the fact that I have XX chromosomes, I am a woman and and I define my own feminism. 

Brenda55 21018 pts moderator

 Karla "For two hours, I sat in his office and listened to what he had to live with before his divorce."

 

I would so love to hear that story.  It may not be too far from the one I have been hearing from my own husband re. life before his divorce from his first wife. 

 

You and I are about the same age and I have seen a lot of the same things you have. To me feminism was a crock during the bra burning days and my low opinion of it has not changed. 

 

You are ok so long as you do not make the choice for marriage and family.  That choice should be a respected option. Too often it is not. 

 

I had it both ways and don't feel that feminism had much to do with either choice. .  I had a longstanding and successful career  as a registered nurse and I am now a stay at home wife.

Loving it.  I only wish men could have those same options. 

Karla 19185 pts

 Brenda55 Girl, it would take too much space to write out our conversation but the gist of it was that she felt she had been dealt a low blow by having three sons and no daughters.  She set out to "feminize" the boys and my professor said they were nothing but mama's boys.  They did not agree on child rearing.  The stuff she put this poor man through was unconscionable; I had no reason to disbelieve him, although I do understand there are two sides to every story.  He was an honorable man to the end (he died last year) and a humanist of the first order.  To tell you the truth, I think his ex-wife was just posturing for her "feminist" buddies.

 

 

Nonya 210 pts

 Karla 

"Karla-ism"?  YES. ;)  ...Nahn wrong with looking out for #1

SwirlQueen 1067 pts

 Karla

 Bingo!  You said a mouthful and then some.  The real feminist were former slaves who spoke out.  The movemnt was hijacked if you ask me.  I read somewhere that the white feminists leaders got mad at Ida B. Wells for having the nerve to get married.  Sojourner Truth was a true feminist and those like her.  There were many.

Karla 19185 pts

 SwirlQueen The diff here is that these women weren't misandrists.  They were about living free and living the life they wanted, by their choice, which seems to be missing in some of the "feminist" rhetoric.  I can't get with the "you're either with me or against me" ultimatum.  The point, I hope, of the feminist movement of the 1970s (which is what I am familiar with), was that women should have a choice and it's not for any of us to put down that choice.  If a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom, that's her choice. If she wants to serve her country in the military, her choice.  If she loves homekeeping and spends her time making sure her home is a beautiful sanctuary, she can do that.  Men should have the same choices without having to endure censure.  My brother is a high-powered attorney but he can sew on a button and keep a house beautifully, cook (he makes a mean lasagne!) and take care of himself.  That doesn't make him gay.  It makes him a smart man who lives well.  How can anyone be against that?

ASwirlGirl 3230 pts

 Karla"I'm all about Karla-ism.  I've got to do what works for me and what suits my values.  If the feminists don't like it, think some of the things I like to do set them back 100 years, whatever, I just don't give a rat's patootie.  It seems to me that the "choice" part was thrown out with the bathwater.  I never knew they had a hierarchy and, frankly, don't care, because I made my own hierarchy.  Seriously, how does the way I live my life affect feminism, as it stands today?  I have values that are the center of my life.  That's what's most important to me.  I'm not interested in knowing what the new and current tenants of "feminism" are.  By virtue of the fact that I have XX chromosomes, I am a woman and and I define my own feminism."

 

 

You just preached an ENTIRE sermon. WORD! *Passes the offering plate* ;)

stephanie88 154 pts

Wonderful post!  Thank you for sharing this with us.  It embodies how I feel about feminism too.

Allylaura 36 pts

Have you ever heard of black feminism? Seriously as of late it feels like there's been a lot of casual labeling of groups going on, on this site. I consider myself a black feminist but I don't hate men, I will never have a child out of wedlock, nor do I excuse the behaviors of DBR just because their women. Everything you said seems to be in regard to white feminism so of course. Why is it that of late this site likes to focus on the extremist of things especially in regards to feminism. Why? I don't know.

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 Allylaura "Have you ever heard of black feminism?"

 

"Author’s Note: I know the title alone is going to upset some people. I know persons are going to come flocking into this post to try and “educate” me and assume I know nothing about feminism and how I’m drawing negative connotations thanks to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. NOPE. I am speaking from my own experiences, observations, and conversations. This is about me and at no point am I advocating anyone else think like me. If you want to follow a concept, do it for your own reasons and not because of what someone else says or thinks."

 

 

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

 Toni_M  Allylaura 

 

"Have you ever heard of black feminism?"

 

Did you even read the post? 

 

Clearly not. 

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 VintageNarcissa  Allylaura  I wonder if she visited the links, many of whom were links to and had even MORE links to various black feminists sharing their anger and their concerns. Women who I found actually had similar feelings to me, and from whom I even learned about things I had not considered, such as the fact that black feminism as a space is often breeched by white feminists who feel that these women are wasting time or unfairly devoting too much time to "race".

 

Meanwhile we have white women proudly marching down the street carrying signs declaring themselves "the n*gger of the world", and who don't understand why white people shouldn't be able to use that word or why black feminists (or any black person, feminist or not) may have a problem with it.

Toni_M 20127 pts moderator

 Allylaura "I won’t call myself a feminist so long as I feel that the feminist movement itself is about something other than what the heart of feminism claims. I will not get myself wrapped up with or confused with such persons, and I have no time for disclaimers and differentiating myself from this or the other group of hypocrites. I have no time for rationalizations, expectations, and especially the idea that it’s on ME to educate and convince and change this group, rather than they do it themselves. "