Know A Coloracist?

Know A Coloracist?

My mom is a victim of it.  I am too. Mom, who is a deep chocolate brown, will NOT go outside on a hot sunny day without a hat.  Or long sleeves.  Oh! an don’t forget the sunscreen.  Not because she’s afraid breaking out with skin cancer, but because she doesn’t want to get darker. [...]

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Author : Christelyn Karazin

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My mom is a victim of it.  I am too.

Mom, who is a deep chocolate brown, will NOT go outside on a hot sunny day without a hat.  Or long sleeves.  Oh! an don’t forget the sunscreen.  Not because she’s afraid breaking out with skin cancer, but because she doesn’t want to get darker.

“People notice when I get blacker,” she told me once.  Seeking to diversify her portfolio, she is looking into buying stock in AMBI.  (fine!  I made that last part up, but she uses that goop with the same zeal she watches Eddie Long on the TEE VEE.)

She has always been told by folks in our own family that she was ugly and too dark.  My father’s side of the family, who leans toward the lighter side of the spectrum, questioned my father outright why on earth would he marry her.  ”You want dark babies?”

When I was born, a relative, who is now deceased, told my mother shortly after I was born that I wasn’t a cute baby because I was dark too.

Needless to say, all that dark hate rubbed off on both me and Mom.

I have a friend, JC Davies, who recently wrote and self-published an interrcial dating book,  I Got The  Fever: Love, What’s Race Gotta Do With It?” (Doublewide Publications) She’s a tell it like it T-I-IS white female New Yorker.  She told me straight out.  ”I don’t get this whole light skin/dark skin thing.  Funny too, because white people look at all black people as just as BLACK, regardless of shade.”

Hmmm.  Really?

Asked the hubster, who’s melanin challenged, and he co-signed.

I’m going to get into this a lot more on a colorism series I’m starting in October for Madame Noire.

Discuss!

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kiki100 304 pts

It happened to me the other day. My mom told me she wished she was my complexion. I was like 'Mom why would you say a thing like that?'. Oddly enough, my mother is always called attractive by many men (even had a number of WM checking her out at work), and always has had pursuits and relationships.

First of all, let me update all of you on the new romance. I know I'm backtracking a little bit here since I said before I didn't want to report on their progress, but I don't think they would mind me saying that the one date has now turned into lots of dates, and I think they're pretty much together now. How about that? I don't know about her, but my buddy is taalking like he's in love. Man, he has got it bad.

Next, to the Korgboy comments, dude, you seem like just too much of a knucklehead for me to even respond to you. Besides, it looks like you already got yours from the ladies on here. Guess they know a goof when they see one.

Last, our beer blast has produced another first date (just call me The Matchmaker, lol) between a guy that was there and you of my girl's friends. I really don't knoow him too well, that news came in via the female side. That date is next week. She's real cute, him not so much. He's got that weird "ugly cute" thing going on, aaccording to my better half. He is a big dude, that's for sure. He must be around 6'4" at least and about 230.

It's funny, it seems like one WM and BW have a WM-BW couple in front of them and it all seems so normal, they're a lot more likely to pull the trigger on an IR date.

That's all the news that's fit to print. Catch you all on the flip side whenever I decide to comment next. It's every few months at this rate, lol.

My parents are both brown skinned. My older sister was born very light skinned and I was born dark skinned. My dad's family who is west indian a few called me darkie growing up and she was the more favorable one. And even in school ppl would not believe she was my sister because she was light skinned. Even recently she came to visit me and some of my friends said we didn't have the same fathers which we do. Now my sister finally understands the bias she has son with a haitian man and his family calls her son white in creole because he is light skinned and his family is not. Since she picks up on creole she made a big deal about it to his father.

The light skinned/dark skinned ideology comes from slavery and/or colonialism. People in Asia and India suffer from this same issue due to being conquered the British. Unfortunately, to be lighter skinned means to be better almost white and given different and better opportunities. It is the nature of the beast and it is not a good thing. I understand colorism, I suffered from it growing up, not from my family but my peers and for a long time I hated being black and /or dark skinned. Now I love my skin, wish I could be darker, just recently learned I am not really that damn dark and all of that torment growing up for nothing. What a hot ass mess those Anglo-Saxons (read Brits) created

Nice post. I really like it.

Korgboy, I'm not understanding some of the underlying hostility you seem to have against David. Now, I must say I didn't agree with some of his assessments 100 percent, but I wouldn't say he's trying to put any of the women on this board under a spell. He has an opinion, we all have them on here. And I don't think his comment about dark-skinned women was an back-handed compliment. As Lisa NYC stated he said his girlfriend had dark skin. I also think something you may have accused him of, you may also be guilty of. None of us on here need protecting or coddling or to be told out the wm commenters on this board, who has our best interest at heart. We're not all 'new' to IR dating, in fact, many of us have dated IR with wm for many years. Myself in particular, have been doing since I started dated in my late teens, so early 90s. I'm now almost 40 years old, this is not new to me and I don't need anyone's stamp of approval that I'm doing it right. I've been married, divorced from a wm and am now about get a 2nd time to a wm. My particular stance is there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to dating wm, like all bw they are different but this comes from my experience. Others have had different experiences that make them believe otherwise. But no bw on here needs protection from other wm posters because we're so insecure about dating IR and wanting wm to love us so bad. It's a little condescending.

Cosign. That post was more than a bit patronizing. I also took umbrage at the assumption that all the bw here are novices, and that we're all desperate for attention that we'd give any obnoxious WM a pass. He needs to read that thread where the other David - the one who couldn't distinguish between Shenaynay and a normal bw - got it handed to him. Lol.

Robynne, eewww I forgot all about the 'other' David, that was painful to read. LOL.

@Korgboy:

Regarding the guy David, who had the party, a Howard Stern listener? Umm, I certainly didn't get that feeling, and I was born and raised in New York City, so I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of Howard Stern's fans over the years. I'm not feeling that at all. And as far as him being empowered by having an audience of black women, well he's been lurking for months from what I can tell, so if he wanted attention, wouldn't he be all over this blog with his opinion about everything? I don't know, I think you're really making a lot of assumptions you can't back up. Furthermore, I take offense at you implying that we are a bunch of black women that are so desperate for approval or evaluation that we would fall under someone's spell or that we would need a white knight like you looking out for us.

Hodan/Amber T/Eugenia and others:

I agree with the various things said about BW and obesity, it is a life or death situation for the collective of black women and you can't even talk about it because we as black women just get crazy when the subject is broached. Kudos to all of you for stating the truth! Hurt feelings are taking precedence over real life or death health issues. I don't know why black women are so invested in denying reality, but they are. I get so frustrated sometimes with my sisters just preferring to stick their heads in the sand and ignoring anything bad that exists. I know it's a coping mechanism, but, damn, get a grip. Wake up and smell that fresh coffee being brewed every morning.

Christelyn:

I'm gonna agree with your friend, your husband and others who said that white people look at us as black, no matter what shade we are. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I think that's true. I think there is rampant, poisonous colorism among black people, and colorism among other races, too, but I don't think white people really put much value on different shades of black in terms of black people as a whole. To them, we're just black people.

Again, "Dark, but pretty" is akin to "She is so pretty to be dark skinned.

No matter what he said to precede that, that sentence negated quite a bit actually.

I expect he will defend himself as a man at some point. I personally don't see how that is any different from a Black man like say, Chad Ochocinco making ridiculous comments about Black women when he "defended" his position on keeping BW off/minimizing the presence of BW on his dating show.

If I may be so bold, I can guess David's type, wm to wm. He is probably the type who listens to Howard Stern and feels empowered to be able to have an audience of women, in this case, BW, with little experience dating IR needing some sort of "evaluation" and/or approval because he is some random white guy who happens to date Black women.

I am a wm married to a Black woman and we are 15 years strong. I am as about as WASPY as you can get. Reading some of his posts tells me a great deal about him and his mindset and it is unfortunate that some many BW are taking what this man says as Gospel Truth.

Men like good looking women period. While it is true Black women are more obese than other races with Hispanics closely behind; not all wm want or desire thin women.

I grew up in a house where my mother modeled back in the 60s in New York. She is thin, blonde and green eyed. My wife is hour glassed, voluptuous, coke bottled shape with beautiful locs. I have always loved very, shapely women who were bigger than what is considered beautiful. Even when I dated ww, my women were always Italian with dark hair and eyes and great womanly figures. My definition of womanly is big boobs, small waist and a big round butt. I am not alone in this as all of my close friends are other white males and they are always asking about meeting BW like my wife in looks, education and demeanor. She is a very smart, funny and just has this Southern charm that sleighs men.

I have other wm friends who love Asian women but they literally do nothing for me. They never have, but I can see where a lot of WM do like Asian women but it has a lot to do with a lot of patriarchal BS that I am just not into. Small boyish figures..NO. Preteen girl figure..NO! I love womanly women!! I feel like man because I am a man and having some doll, child, plaything which I have observed in a good deal of these WM/AW relationships is just twisted. But, to each his own.

I think no woman should be obese. It is just ridiculous. I think that any man who is all about the physical when it comes to women is very shallow and a woman will forever be trying to please that man. If this is how a woman wants to live, then that is her life and she is an adult.

If a man truly wants to be with a woman and she is carrying extra weight, then that man will go the distance with her and they will develop a healthy lifestyle TOGETHER. Women are not children, they are people to be respected. If my wife gains 30 or loses 30, no problem. IF she were to gain a hundred, we would be walking and eating Tofu together because I love the her. She has gone up and down the scale and it did not bother me one bit.

Having dated three white men in a row, I would have to agree with the other people that said that white people generally don't attach any significance to shades of black, or shades of brown, on black people. They might notice it, but to them, it doesn't mean anything. To them, black is black is black.

I don't think President Obama is acceptable to most white Americans because he's light, I think he's okay to them because he acts and sounds like a white man, and most white people feel a lot more comfortable with blacks like that in general.

I have never experienced colorism, but I am a medium color brown. My sister, however, complains about it regularly. She is a lot darker than me, and says she gets it from both black women and black men. She says the women pretend to feel sorry for her because she's dark and the men seem to feel like she should be flattered to get any attention from because she's dark. She's better looking than me but the brothas want to talk to me first, and the funny thing is, I don't have any interest in them at all. It really sets her off. I've even joked with her about dating white men so she can make that problem go away, since they don't seem to care about dating a dark sista, but she doesn't think that's funny at all. She's never dated IR, and is not approving of my IR dating.

You would think she'd get a clue at some point but she says she won't abandon her people...

I'm sorry I can't reply to these comments using the "reply" feature, but my BlackBerry won't allow that for some reason.

Christelyn - as far as reporting on their relationship progress, if there is any, neither one of them even knows they're being mentioned on this blog. Even if they are anonymous to all of you, I don't feel right saying anymore about them.

Tracy - sure, you can quote my comment if you like.

Liza207 - nope, different David. Didn't see that comment from the other David (but it sounds sort of bizarre), but anyway, girlfriend and I have been together for two years in November.

BlkQueenBee - that sounds pretty cool, much more upscale than our thing, which was just more or less a beer blast. We didn't do our get-together with any plan in mind regarding introductions or exposure, we just did it for fun. There were a lot of people there.

All - my girlfriend has now backtracked a little and now says her friend is actually probably closer to a size 6 than an 8, but she says that is still a long ways from a 2. I have no idea as I have no idea what size women wear, just what size (thin, normal, chunky, fat, obese) they appear to be from my perspective. I don't think straight guys know much about that stuff. I asked two married guys if they knew what size their wives wore, and they had no idea. But, regardless, the girl in question looks fine. Dark, but she's very pretty with short relaxed (real) hair and very shapely.

OK, going to stop with the comments now and just read like I usually do, and stay undercover. Bet of luck to all.

Dark, BUT very pretty!!???!!!

Tonight's backhanded compliment of the week!

As a fellow white man, I know your "type". Hopefully, more BW will and run the other direction.

@korgboy76 -

I don't think that was a back-handed compliment from the guy David. If you read the rest of his original comment, he was stating his opinion that most white men don't care how black a black woman is, and furthermore, that his girlfriend is very dark.

I don't mean to speak for him, but given the context of what he said previously, I think he was just making the point again that dark is good. If you read his previous comments and then read your assessment of his last comment, your opinion seems overly harsh and critical to me. I'm dark (and very pretty, too, lol) and I feel the tone of his overall comments was very positive.

This is an aspect of AA culture that i find really difficult to understand.i am African and in my family we range from the very dark to extremely light and believe it or not the dark women in the family are regarded as the pretty ones.i grew up with a younger sister who was a lot darker than i am she was"the black beauty".i always felt insulted when i was told i looked like a light skinned aunt because we felt she was not attractive at all.

i have also noticed that after some of my friends lived in the states for a long time they also became obsessed with being light skinned.

My family is def. a victim of this as well.

I am too.

I know once, there was this guy that I really wanted to marry. It didn't work out, but he was quite black. Blue black -is that what its called? But it didn't bother me to be with him.

When I go outside, and this is mostly due to way too much info and not enough facts more than color issues, I do worry that perhaps a dark-skinned person living in a continental weather, may not be getting enough vitamin D, and whatever else the sun gives. But I think the way I am (pretty browned. sorry, I don't know all the terminologies. lol) I get a healthy dose w/o the sunscreen. Again, I don't know.

My decisions aren't based on the colorism, but there is a part of me that is aware of it. For the guy that it didn't work out with, the "success driven" part of me knew that others looked down at him because of his color, and probably thought me a failure for being with him. But it was not a loud enough voice in me to cause me to act on it.

OK, just to set the record straight, since I know all about the weight wars on this blog, I asked my girlfriend and she says the woman I referred to as a normal weight is probably a size 8. Not a size 2.

And my girlfriend is a size 10, but she is five-eleven. So it's not like normal is a Size 2, like one of the comments alluded to above.

And if that is what normal is to me, then you have to know that the women I referred to as heavy were indeed huge.

My girlfriend wanted me to make sure that you ladies knew that I was not trying to put black girls in an unrealistic weight expectation box regarding IR dating.

BTW, my buddy and her friend are going out to dinner, a movie, and if they stll like each other by the end of the movie, maybe drinks afterward. Tomorrow night's the big night for them - first date for them, and also the first IR date ever for both of them.

Keep us posted! Hey you want to guest blog about it? I'll give you the floor.

David, no one gonna's string you up. Geez LOL. And for some women perfect is size 8, but some of us are comfortable in our bodies at a size 6 or a size 12, what really matter is our comfort and our confidence, confidence shows. I've always been confident but yes when I got up to a size 18 that confidence waned. And no one wants anyone to be unhealthy and obese is unhealthy. Health is right for everybody, how and at weight we reach those health goals may be a little different.

And good luck to your friend and your girlfriend's friend on the date. They'll come to find that dating is just like any other date. Hope there's a love connection.

What I would personally like is another thread where we can address this. This keeps cropping up no matter what the subject matter of the particular blog post is. But maybe not anchored by a specific expert giving specific advice, or by someone sharing his/her story. I loved Tracy sharing her experiences with us, but the combination of her losses and her weight triumph didn't make me feel comfortable discussing random idiosyncratic things about weight and weight issues. And clearly there is something that we need to discuss if it keeps popping up - so much so that someone felt driven away.

Maybe a thread resembling this on? Something where people share their experiences, because weight issues in the northeast are probably going to look VERY different than weight issues in the south, for example; and that is just one way to parse out this whole thing.

Maybe also (sorry I guess I'm getting greedy! :P) we need to throw some images up to get a better idea where everyone stands - I have a couple in mind myself. When looking at these things, we probably need to look at a variety of factors, but, say, looking at images of celebrities who span the spectrum might help us all get on the same page.

Just a thought...

I have had some experiences both directly and indirectly regarding color and rejection. A friend of mine in HS of Nigerian descent liked another friend of mine who was a BM. To me, she was beautiful-- she had a rich mahogany flawless complexion, a beautiful smile, and extremely smart in school. She had me give a love letter to this boy because she really liked him. He read the note publicly on the school bus and started with his dark-skinned jokes. He was just as dark as she was, but for some reason, he thought that he could publicly humiliate her by talking about how ugly she was because of her skin color and that he couldn't date someone who was so "black." She was crushed and it took her a long time to get over it. Experiences like that can really shape someone's view of themselves and scar them for life. Black people can sometimes be their own worst enemy with this divisive Plantation mentality.

Many have mentioned colorism by black people, including myself, but i have also experienced it from white people.
Keep in mind i'm in Sweden (born and raised) and not America.

I have gotten the "you can't tan", "i wouldn't want to be black because then you can't 'lay out'", and the "you're not dark like a real African person", "you're not a real n***er" (said as if it's a compliment) and the "if i were an African, i would want to be east african because they are the prettiest Africans" (said to me by a white girlfriend who is no longer my friend).
All of the above has been said to me, the N word comment was when i was a kid and the tan and lay out comment when i was a teenager, but the last one was said very recently.

I've always loved my skin color because i can get very dark or very light depending on the season.
I've also gotten the "you could pass for indian" comment.
These comments may seem very superficial, but to me it's something even more disturbing, it's the notion that lighter, or "closer to white" is better because it's standard and it's to be praised and worshipped.
I don't like the fact that white people are given some type of pass when it comes to this because i know that they see, very clearly at times, the difference, hell i got a shade darker one summer and I hadn't even noticed but my lily white, blonde blue eyed class mate sure did and pointed it out, not in a bad way or negative way at all, just in passing.
I'm thinking about this now and i can give you plenty more examples like one time in the changing room a white friend of mine said,"you're not that dark, can you tan?" quite naive and innocent question, but very weird still. and we were what? 14? 15? come to think of it, i've gotten those type of questions a lot.
I don't know if those are good examples, but the more recent ones have been subtle.
There is an assumption there that since i am black, i must not want to go out in the sun, or get darker or i must not like my skin.
That's one of those things i've found with WW.
Anyway, i have also experienced it with Asians, both men and women. it's pathetic and sad whoever its coming from.

There is so much pain and anger still attached to colorism amongst black folk and yes the ones suffering are mostly black women. It's all over the posts on this subject from fair to dark, everybody has been hurt and maybe had someone they love hurt them. I've been a victim of it, my mom said anything about one of us being lighter or darker in any positive or negative way. We were just her children. My dad never said anything, didn't treat us different. There was always talk of my grandfather's family not being thrilled he'd married my grandmother, he could have passed for white and she was tad bit darker but dark for them. You know we're finding solutions over at NWNW and that's great. What do we do about this, what's some solutions? It's obvious that colorism is still running rampant and women are still hating on one another from being too dark or too light. I'm naive enough to think some of this has just gone away but once again, I've found out I'm living in my own little world and the real world is sometimes clawin' and bitin' at each other. We're mostly women here, we know women who say stuff, make little snide comments, even if they are not your friends you know them. Someone said above we're bred to compete as women, I believe that. We are trained by other older women that all women are competition to be feared and never to be trusted. They're all competition for men. It was never anything my female relatives said specifically but it was always implied, never trust a woman and never trust her around your man. How do we stop being each other's enemy/competition. Trying to one up one another, to show who's more desirable or who's more beautiful. We do it in all kinds of subtle ways, some disguised as being helpful. How do I know who to trust? How do we get to champion of women? What do we say next time we hear a friend or an acquaintance call a girl an ugly name because of her, skin color, her hair, her weight? Boy after reading these posts I'm really having to re-evaluate myself.

I've NEVER been a victim of colorism, wow that will change the conversation. Dang revising.

I had never experienced colorism until i moved to London and a black male on the street approached me and said "hey you got that nice skin color i like",at first i didn't understand what he meant...mind you, he was very dark, almost coal black.
He asked for my number but i wasn't interested so i said "no, sorry".

I don't live in a country where there are a lot of black people so i've never experienced this from other black males.
When I lived in London i got it from both black men and black women, with the women it was mainly negative attitudes, hostility, rude remarks etc (probably had nothing to do with my skin color though).
With the men, very aggressive approach, entitlement and very pushy.
I didn't understand it coming from the women because i am very friendly and i always smile, but a lot of them looked very miserable...from the ones working as cashiers to the random ones on the street. I came home thinking "why was almost every single black woman i encountered so angry?" Well, looking back many of them are ignored or ridiculed by black men, even in public.
I saw young black girls being pushed (sometimes literally) aside by black guys so that they could approach random white girls, and the look on the black girls faces was heartbreaking.

I know this is off topic but something that will always stay with me is how many black women i have met and how many of them have that same defensive look on their faces, like they're always on their guard, and eyes that always look angry even when they smile.
It's really depressing, something deeper is going on here and honestly it's so sad. I want to see black women with that same relaxed--i haven't watched the news in 2 years--life is a disney movie---look that so many other women have on their face.
I know life is hard but what gives? why this pattern?

Black males are the reason for colorism, and the black women that engage it are merely their enablers ans servants in the cause of colorism. Think about it for just one blessed minute and you will realize what you already know - every black man, even the ones as black as coal, thinks he should have the dyme sister. Or a white woman. Y'all know this is the God's truth!

But a light and bright sista will go out with a brother much darker than herself, it's no big thing. It's these brothers that are so color-struck.

There are black women that have taken on the role of guard dog for colorism, but it's black men that are directing this particular show.

I'm thinking that post she said she healthy, although plus sized.
BTW, what the hell does that mean what is plus size anything over a 12 or is a 16 or is a 18? I keep hearing it but it's undefined. If she says she's healthy who are we to argue that she isn't. She didn't say she was obese, which is unhealthy but plus size doesn't equal unhealthy (whatever the hell that means) just as skinny doesn't equal healthy. So why is she offended. We speak of obesity here as unhealthy and any unhealthy living as not good for women and that includes unsafe and yo-yo dieting. Which carries it's own dangers. I think we may projecting something onto this poster that she didn't actually say and until she comes back and clarifies we'll never know. I'm size 14 and my fiancee can't keep his hands off of me but I'm on my way to losing about 10 to 15 lbs so I can fit into a size 12 wedding dress, wouldn't hurt my health either. LOL.

She said she's leaving because she can't take being beaten up. The convos that *I* have seen on here about weight have boiled down to the facts that:

1. you have more men in your dating pool if you are thin than if you are not

2. what black folks consider thin is not in line with other race's perceptions and

3. being overweight will reduce the number of men you have the chance to be with.

I have never seen anyone get beaten up. And Hodan and I mentioned obesity because it is one of the main killers of BW, and it pertains to the issue of weight. If the above poster isn't obese, that's great. Why flounce off the site if the issue doesn't apply to her though? Nobody is beating up on anybody.

This reminds me of the NWNW drama. Nobody was beating up on OOW kids or babymammas. The point was simply made that it is not the ideal and that more of us should at least TRY to do things better. Same message as with the weight. Being overweight is not ideal, and more of us should at least try to correct it.

I haven't seen anyone get beaten up either so if she's okay with her weight and knows she's healthy why the feelings of being beat up? Is there some substance to this? You know we say things and may not mean them in a negative tone or light but really with this internet thing th only person's interpretation that matters is the one that reads it. I wish she'd come back and actually expound and give examples, maybe we could clarify some of the things she seems to have misconstued. I'm not worried about the what people think is in line, we all know obesity kills, it just does. I'm sure she knows that but really there is someone out there for her, for all of us. We only need one and I was never trying to make all white men fall in love with me, I was just trying to make one and he did. She's not beyond love or unlovable, so why does she think that? But who says she's overweight you just made an assumption, being plus size is not alway overweight if she's like me and tall and I'm still guessing that size 14 is plus size but if you saw me, u believe I was that size. If she's healthy isn't that what is supposed to matter or are we really saying to bw that yes, white guys only like skinny black women whether they are healthy or not? Just playing devil's advocate.

You wouldn't believe I was that size. I'm just asking questions, since it seems she's gone for good we'll never know. She actually did say 0-2 was being lauded here (not that I have seen), she may be an 8 and think she's being called plus sized. IDK.

Huge topic derail as well, but Imma chime in anyway--

This is hitting me where I live right now. Even though I'm tall and "carry it well" and all the other cliches, I've taken a look around and decided to start being "real" with myself. I have great friends, travel, get out to various activities, attending grad school, get along with just about everybody, etc, but I haven't had a real date in ages.
Although I don't have any health problems now (no high blood pressure, no diabetes,walk pretty much everywhere I can) I am just beginning to notice small things--foot pain, increased snoring because I'm starting to get a bit of a double chin, abdominal fat is getting worse as I get older,increased facial hair, etc.

I was VERY thin at a size 11 in high school (I'm 5'9' and have a larger frame) and part of college, but have been steadily gaining since then. Now I'm 35 and realize I have spent the last 12 years overweight. My last relationship ended over 2 years ago & I haven't been on many dates since. I don't want to be a size 2 or 8--call the coroner if I'm ever that thin-- but I know I can be more active, lose some pounds and inches, look better in my clothes, have more energy, and be more generally attractive. I have a lot going for me--why not have more?

Good for you Niki, I'm right there with you. I'm talking about our now missing poster, not myself. I'd like to get back to 12 that's just one down size down from 14 because I and I said 'I' would feel better. Because I do have diabetes (type 1, not type 2). I already got a man, he ain't going nowhere LOL. He loves me now but I'd love me more if my thighs weren't rubbing together. LOL. I'm just hoping she could clarify some of the things she said because, yes it seems out of the blue with this conversation.

The coroner won't come for you if you're that thin. Why is it that women like to imply that women below size 6 are near death's bed for want of nourishment? I'm a size 4/5 at 5'8.5" - just half an inch below you - and I ain't skinny. I too do have some abdominal fat that I'm bent on working off. My frame is small so if I got any bigger I wouldn't look right. Plus, I'd hate to unnecessarily spend money on a new wardrobe because I'm packing it on.

The coroner won’t come for you if you’re that thin. Women below size 6 aren't necessarily near death’s bed for want of nourishment.I’m a size 4/5 at 5’8.5″ – just half an inch below you – and I ain’t skinny. I too do have some abdominal fat that I’m bent on working off. My frame is small so if I got any bigger I wouldn’t look right. I guess I could pull it off if my frame was larger, but I didn't get lucky like that.

@ Chris - please delete my earlier post under Robynn - thanks.

The coroner won’t come for you if you’re that thin. Women below size 6 aren't necessarily near death’s bed for want of nourishment.I’m a size 4/5 at 5’8.5″. I'm just half an inch below you – and I ain’t skinny. I too do have some abdominal fat that I’m bent on working off. My frame is small so if I got any bigger I wouldn’t look right. I guess I could pull it off if my frame was larger, but I didn't get lucky like that.

@ Chris - please delete my earlier post under Robynn - thanks.

Who implied that? Where? But skinny isn't always healthy, obese certainly isn't all the time. I'd be uncomfortable in my body at a 4/5 at my height. I must have a larger frame. Whatever works for you. I'm comfortable at size 12 that's why I'm trying to get back to it. But she said we're saying 0-2 is what men want. Personally I say, if we're looking for men's opinion on this we ask men and I have. From their perspective it seems all over the damn board. So I say, do what's best for you some guy will like it.

@ Robynne--yes, the coroner would have to come for me if I was a size 8! LOL I can show you pics of me from high school at my smallest (size 11) and my collar bones were VERY visible and I kinda had a "bobble-head" look because I had a big chest, broad shoulders, and long limbs and everything else was very thin. All women are shaped differently, so me at 5'9 and 145 lbs may look sickly on me, but just right on you because our frames and where we carry weight are different. I would be EXTREMELY comfortable with myself if I got back down to an 11! I think anything smaller than a 9 or 10 would not look good on me. Even when I'm skinny, I'm not a petite woman! LOL

@Niki

Lol, fair enough. I figured your skeleton is probably bigger than mine, so you can afford more and still look cute. Grrr.

Hodan, I fully agree with you. The obesity epidemic is hitting BW and KILLING US. Hurt feelings need to be put aside in this kind of dire situation. There are so many BW who are living diminished lives that end too soon. I know it's painful, as are many of the realities of our lives that need to be fixed. In order for it to be fixed, we have to acknowledge that a problem exists.

I was very overweight myself until recently... the weight had crept up over the years and the pregnancies. I feel so much happier, have so much more energy and more confidence now that I have lost the weight. I'm not at my goal weight yet, but I'm not going to stop trying until I get there.

With my weight loss, my husband is ecstatic. He cannot keep his hands off of me and is falling all over himself to make me happy. It reminds me of when we first started dating... actually I'm thinner now then when we met. It's like now he's afraid someone will try to steal me, and he wants to stay "on the good foot" lol.

My OBGYN, who really admires me, put it to me plainly. He told me that if I don't lose weight, I'm going to suffer, and then I'm going to die. He was right. It hurt me at first, I admit, but he has my interests at heart and I listened. Thank god. I'll never go back to being tired, winded and uncomfortable again.

Please don't let hurt feelings keep you from reaching for an abundant life. It's just like the BW who get miffed when they hear the naked truth about BM... they want to get huffy instead of facing facts. Sometimes things are uncomfortable to hear because they are true and need correction.

As far as the colorism "thing"....It used to bother me....not so anymore...I no longer care if someone (black, white or otherwise) thinks I'm too dark...that's their issue, not mine. I'm glad if they spout that kind of inane rhetoric...it lets me know to stay away from them...PERIOD.

Not to derail the conversation:

Well, there's at least ONE THING I've "come away" with from the IR dating blogs...no matter how "dark & lovely",intelligent, cultured, traveled, healthy, active, etc. you are....as far as WM are concerned: It ALL gets chucked down the toilet if you ARE NOT a size 0-2. *extreme sarcasm*

Christelyn, I truly enjoyed your blog...and especially NWNW (I forwarded the website addy and info to a few BW who work with organizations serving young BW)...but, I'm signing off the IR blogs altogether...As a plus-sized chick (who is active and healthy...shocking, innit?) ...I'm really tired of being beat up....

Blessings...

I'm so far from size 0 or even 6, yet I do not believe IR blogs have ever trashed or attacked black women for being 'chubby,' rather they refuse to sugar coat the reality of black women dying before the age of 40/50 or having endless health problems due to obesity. I do not think its about the size of your dress, rather the status of your health and the limitation it puts on your options for marrying quality men and women who whether we like it or not, do not give much attention to overweight men and women.

Here is a great article by Khadija who sums up why black culture acceptance and promotion of unhealthy life choices is killing black women:

http://sojournerspassport.com/the-art-of-stealth-part-4-pierce-the-fog-of-dogma/

"CURRENT DOGMA—REFUSAL TO CHEERLEAD OBESITY = BEING AN EXCLUSIONARY OPPRESSOR

The current dogma among large numbers of African-American women is what has been called “fat acceptance,” and the cheerleading of obesity. It’s taboo among African-American women to: (1) refuse to cheerlead obesity, and (2) openly speak of the very real negative consequences of obesity. God help any African-American woman (of any weight range) who openly warns against obesity and urges overweight African-American women to lose weight.
REALITY—AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN ARE DYING LEFT AND RIGHT DUE TO OBESITY-RELATED AILMENTS

While I was at work last week, I came to a shocking realization. It turns out that for at least the past 5 years, every time that an ambulance has been called to my work building to assist an employee, the stricken employee has been an African-American woman. Every . . . single . . . time. The ambulance has been called for four Black women. Some of them have had the ambulance called more than once. None of them are elderly. All of them are suffering from various chronic ailments such as high blood pressure, and so on. All of them are overweight or obese. I don’t think this is a coincidence."

Uh huh - and I thought that the preference for lighter skin is a crazy thing only among us - Chinese. Now I see that black people are not different in this aspect.
So, it seems that the only ones who want to be tanned are Caucasians...

It is definitely not limited to the black community or any specific Asian community. It seems to be a worldwide plague that needs to end.

You know, WHY are people acting like the main culprits of this colorism bs are Black females? Can we PLEASE stop the bull! It is BLACK MALES who are the main ones with this garbage! Look at who they put in their magazines! Look at who they put in their videos! Look at their dating preferences, COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! Also, it is LITTLE BLACK GIRLS who are suffering the most from this ,NOT Black boys, and GROWN DARK BLACK WOMEN are the ones who CONTINUE to suffer as they get older from this colorism crap, NOT GROWN DARK BLACK MEN, SO ENOUGH ALREADY! Frankly I think a lot of people are LYING because it's not pc to tell the damn truth about these Black men!

Tom, your reasoning about who those light-skinned Black women are aput in to appeal to is 100% CORRECT!

Hey Me,

You so right, BM are to blame for why dark-skinned BW and BGs are suffering from poor self-image and they should be called out on it. But, the fact of the matter is that dark-skinned BW have not. They are instead directing all of their anger and resentment towards light-skinned BW, which in my opinion is a symptom of socialized female behavior. Women are taught at an early age to be competitive with each other, especially for the attention of men.

Obviously, BM (the dark-skinned ones in particular) are the culprits but because of how women are socialized, dark-skinned BW will continue to fault light-skinned BW, until they become more conscientious and more aware. The real enemy here is not light-skinned BW, we had nothing to do with the complexion we were born with and we did not deem ourselves more desirable to BM, BM did.

Hey Me,

You're so right, BM are to blame for why dark-skinned BW and BGs are suffering from poor self-image and they should be called out on it. But, the fact of the matter is that dark-skinned BW have not. They are instead directing all of their anger and resentment towards light-skinned BW, which in my opinion is a symptom of socialized female behavior. Women are taught at an early age to be competitive with each other, especially for the attention of men.

Obviously, BM (the dark-skinned ones in particular) are the culprits but because of how women are socialized, dark-skinned BW will continue to fault light-skinned BW, until they become more conscientious and more aware. The real enemy here is not light-skinned BW, we had nothing to do with the complexion we were born with and we did not deem ourselves more desirable to BM, BM did.

Yes, this! The true perpetrators of this poison are waltzing around scot free while BW tear each other to shreds in competition for them. Other BW are not the enemy!!!

Even if it were true that light skinned girls were smug or uppity or whatever, that would be of no consequence UNLESS the colorstruck BM gave them an advantage for being light. Cuz frankly I'm not seeing other races caring too much about the skin tone of black folks.

Interesting topic. A lot of people already voiced some of my thoughts, so some of this may be reiteration.

When I read the comment from the woman - especially from NYC - my first though was "give me a break!" But as I read through all the posts, I came up with a few ideas.

1 - We could be talking about different shades of things. I think the house slave/field slave is a great analogy. It shows the distinctions that can occur in treatment, especially when dealing with work. That was initially why I balked.

I had a teacher once who pointed out that much of the homeless population were not only people of color, and predominantly black, but dark black. At the time I didn't want to believe it, but as I avidly looked around me (because NYC can't hide their homeless very well like some other cities I've visited) what he said was true. Most of them were very dark, so much so that it couldn't be just coincidental.

I agree that people may not say they have a preference, or that black is black, but I've seen their behavior: who are they friends with? Who do they hang out with? Who do they admit to college institutions? Who do they hire? Time and time again I have seen the lightest of bp w/ jobs. In fact, there was a NYT article a while back on the struggle that bm had getting jobs. They were pegging it based on ethnicity, but when I looked at the picture of him, my suspicions told me that it was because of how he looked. He clearly had the accolades to do the job because he was called for the interview. But he said when they saw him they look shocked. Eventually they chalked up his miss to the most commonly ambiguous "didn't seem to fit the corporate culture". Which brings me to my other idea:

2 - color used to denote phenotype, but as the world has become flatter, and people more tolerant, discrimination becomes more nuanced.

Because the system of old was so rigid, you could almost score along color lines. But nowadays, you can't, so I think wp would see all people as black, because if they are looking to delineate, they have other factors to focus on like phenotype, and class. They don't do it to us, but probably to others who are closer in looks to them. I know someone, a white latina, who told me that often bp would mistake her for being white, but no white person would ever mistake her for being white. At best, growing up she received the classic "what are you?" or "what's your last name?" A very subtle way of trying to suss out her ethnicity.

So now I think features are more important than simple color. Tisha Campbell, who was highlighted in Schools Daze (someone mentioned above) has never had success in non-bp oriented films, and she is very light. But Thandie or Halle has because they have features that are desirable that go along w/ a darker skin color. I'm actually surprised people think Halle is light? I think she is on the light end, but I wouldn't call her light. She just has very fine features, a fine bone frame, and frankly the woman is just gorgeous (she has great symmetry)! When I think of light I think of Mariah, or Jennifer Beale (Book of Eli, Flashdance, The L Word).
So I've seen exceptions made in my life. When I look at who people hung out with, or were friends with, and especially who was hired (I paid close attention to that), and they were dark, they were usually of caribbean or direct african descent. In fact, frankly while it may sound like I am naysaying, I would be GLAD INDEED if what you guys are saying is true, that wm don't care at all once they cross the threshold into dating bw. And that makes sense w/ the plantation analogy too, because it's one thing to have someone working for you - a far different thing to bring her home as your wife! Since we're talking movies, Imitation of Life depicts this really well - especially the oldest version. The main female protagonist is played by a ww, and well, let's just say there's no happy ending if you haven't seen it.

So really I am glad about this, since it goes against my upbringing. Not just in the media, but in the actual relationships I saw, I saw two types of ie relationships w/ bw. Guys either went for lighter women (Alicia Keyes) or darker women (Grace Jones). And I am the middle of the middle - I am the Kansas of complexion. :P

So when I was younger it actually spared me some heartache. They made horrible comments about dark-skinned kids in general. And they also terribly harassed the light-skinned kids. It is so tragic, because you can really get it from both ends. So in that way I was invisible, and spared some brutal teasing (being in an inner city school, but left after that term was coined). Unfortunately, as I grew older, that same invisibility carried with me.

And btw, those darker women white man couples are rare indeed, because darker women - heck darker people, are rare in the city. It could have just been in the circles I occupied, but being middling in complexion I was usually one of the darkest women around. In fact it's hard to be objective about my color because really what is light and what is dark? In so many ways it is all so relative. I feel dark, or felt dark living here, so in many ways I relate to the issues w/ dark skinned bw even if I may not look it.

My dad was light and my mom was dark, so I pretty much split the middle. But that's not always the case. I agree with what others said above, it really is a somewhat defined crap shoot - I loved the genetic wheel of fortune, lol. When I've been around black folk, I have either been around people who were having none of it, so in that way I'm glad. I've actually know a good amount of guys who bucked the trend and seemed to date darker women than themselves. But for some, they were always aware of it - and that awareness made me uncomfortable.

One thing I hope with all the inter-marrying and adoption is that we can finally blow up this whole notion of "race" and "mixed". If we are going by genetic makeup most us born and us/caribbean descended folk are mixed - which btw, recent inter-ethnics don't always want to allow for. There is no pure anything in the U.S. - maybe a recent immigrant, and that is maybe.

The average black person has 20% european ancestry, not to mention whatever else is in there but has been erased because of the savages of slavery - or just some interesting family relations. So if those genes hook up with the partners genes, they could feasibly have a lily white child, even if one of the parents is very dark. Also, what about all these adoptees who are raised by white parents, so they are culturally white (if we want to use direct parentage), but are completely Chinese or Ugandan by genetics? Are they bi-ethnic. In addition, I heard on a tv show (some type of documentary) that there are many genes that make up african ancestry, but all we care about (we as in US) are the few that denote phenotype features that we mark. There are plenty of people who we'd look at and say are white, but who if you did a genetic test on them you would find african ancestry.

Frankly, I wish we could really start to just let all of this go. But I wonder how feasible that is, especially when we are being blended w/ other cultures that have colorist tendancies that run pretty deep.

But hey, I have faith. :) And all the people saying it doesn't matter to them, or who know people that it doesn't matter to is a great start.

Oh, also this book:...

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Play-Sun-Journey-Through/dp/1400077362/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285821397&sr=8-1

Is about one woman's struggle with colorism, and the epiphanies she discovered along the way. I thought it was powerful, and definitely a recommended read, if you're interested in the subject.

Zo (formerly Anonymous)

The point is, it doesn't really matter if whites do look at blacks "all the same", or not.

It's simply a useful rallying cry:

"Shit..... it don't matter. We all n**gaz to the white man, anyway!"

I bet most posters hear have heard that one.

It's useful phrase to keep everyone in line and maintain group thinking.

Same applies to the biracial issue. Claiming mixed as black is a good way to increase numbers and keep everybody on the party line.

The Willie Lynch letter, too, though a debunked myth, is still invoked to play the "we all n**gaz to the white man!" card. Great way to reinforce racial unity.

t's not only a "black thing" as others have stated...

It's crazy, I'm living in Hong Kong right now and it seems like all of the beauty care lotions and potions have whitening agents in them... I have to be careful when I buy certain products (some of them marketed by big North American companies like Dove)... Chinese people are NOT trying to get dark... Tons of parasols on sunny days out here... Darker-skinned Chinese are thought to be of a lower class (workers, etc).

Ironically enough though, I am always praised and regaled for my dark skin in Asia whenever I walk out the door... Guess their colour issues don't extend to people of other races... I am just exotic to them I guess!

http://oneika-the-traveller.blogspot.com