“Macho” Little Black Girls: The Anti-Femininity War on Black Women

“Macho” Little Black Girls: The Anti-Femininity War on Black Women

Note: For the purpose of this article, I’m dealing with a specifically observed issue that has nothing to do with “butch” lesbianism in black women or non-black women. What I’m talking about is not an outgrowth of self-identified sexuality, sexual expression, or a conscious decision by the individual to move away from gender norms and form their own identity. This post is on something ENTIRELY different.

Author : Toni

Author's Website | Articles from

Note: For the purpose of this article, I’m dealing with a specifically observed issue that has nothing to do with “butch” lesbianism in black women or non-black women. What I’m talking about is not an outgrowth of self-identified sexuality, sexual expression, or a conscious decision by the individual to move away from gender norms and form their own identity. This post is on something ENTIRELY different.

 

*********

 

MachoismProminently exhibited or displayed masculinity….Characteristics include domineering, fierceness, bravado, and similar behavior patterns displayed showily or histrionically as being tough…The machismo of members of the human species are all exaggerated features that may cause injury to individuals that display them but attract females.

 

I started to bring this point up in a recent post, but the dialogue was such that it wasn’t immediately relevant to that situation. Though it was relevant as an explanation as to why that woman (I thought she was a teenager at the time) behaved the way she did.

This is an ongoing problem in the black community: A direct off-shoot of the war on femininity in black women. There is a segment of self-hating persons working in collusion with white racism to undermine black womanhood in any way that they can. This is just one symptom of the viral infection.

But for the confused, here are some helpful explanations as to where these hyper-macho little black girls are coming from, and why this problem is only going to get WORSE if black women do not actively combat attempts by persons to strip us of our femininity.

 

 

Explanation One: A Lack of a Positive Father/Male Figure

This is just another side-effect of a lack of familial structure and the availability of sensible paternal figures. The anti-NWNW people can say what they want to: In ethnic groups where marriage is encouraged and fathers are EXPECTED to care for their offspring, you simply do not see the level of “macho” aggressive young women that is startlingly common in the African American community.

If you have a man present that is respectful of women, who encourages you to be feminine and delicate, and who allows you to feel protected, I honestly believe that you are very unlikely to develop such aggressive and violent tendencies. Why would you have to? You have a male provider and protector in your home, or in your family circle. You know that if someone tries to harm you, there is a man you can turn to who will defend your honor. This reinforces your sense of value as a young lady who knows what it is to be appreciated, respected, and protected by a man. Therefore, you have nothing to prove to anyone, and are mentally and emotionally free to pursue other things.

Even though my “girliness” did not catch up to me until well into college, I was always encouraged to be myself, that I was intelligent and could do anything I set my mind to. I never had any negative influences making me loathe myself for being a black woman, telling me that being a lady or delicate was “white-acting”, and I was never put into a survival situation where I had to be physically hardened in order to fight off physical assaults or sexual abuse.

I think one clear explanation for this behavior is a lack of responsible, respectful, non-abusive men in the life of these girls growing up, and they end up “filling the void” left by a lack of masculine energy, encouraged to do so by their mothers who would prefer to coddle their sons in a way that they will never coddle their daughters. Black little girls in their mind must be hardened, must be the protectors and providers. They are simply “on their own”.

 

Explanation Two: Sexual Abuse

There are many indicators that a child has been sexually violated. Some symptoms of sexual abuse are low self-esteem, cruelty, and aggressive behavior. These girls may be very angry as a result of having been violated and having no one to help stop the abuse, acknowledge that the abuse is happening, or protect them from their abuser(s). Increased aggression could be a sign that they feel that being mean and fighting everyone is the only way to keep the hands of such persons off of them. They are afraid of being seen as weak and vulnerable, because they learned very early on that being either of these things makes them desirable to predators. If black women are not mindful of the men they elect to procreate with or the men they have around their daughters, it will lead to putting their offspring in constant jeopardy.

 

Explanation Three: Bizarro World Occupants See Femininity As “Anti-Black”

In their desperation to keep slavery and white racism alive like the good little brain-washed helpers that they are, the GAT-DL has long declared a WAR on black femininity. They look to white people to identify themselves, that way they can get to work being the polar opposite. The problem is that many of the things being labeled as “white” does not belong to any race or ethnic group. One such thing is  femininity, or being the yin to the masculine yang. Behaving in a calm, sensible, demure, manner. Allowing yourself to be pretty, loveable, and gentle.

Since white racism has declared that only white women are actually human and every other “race” is subhuman, it is according to those doctrines perfectly acceptable to treat subhumans as no better than animals, and anticipate violent animal behaviors in them. Students of these doctines, the GAT-DL believes quite firmly that the best thing they can do is eliminate feminine black women from the face of the Earth. Even deny their existence. Black women are “h*s”, “b*tches”, and “macho asexuals”. They are Mammies, Mules, Sapphires, and Jezebels.  Sadly, the brain-dead masses in their way affirm white racist doctrines by encouraging these girls to be anything other than feminine black women. Because in the back of their minds, expecting any sort of respect or consideration as a woman is something simply NOT for black women. They believe fully in their inferiority and resent any black woman who doesn’t, and feel the need to put her in her place. Either through cruel verbal jabs, or beating and or raping her. And if they can’t do it directly, they let these indoctrinated “macho non-men” do it for them.

How many of us have seen these macho little black girls attacking feminine black girls? “You think you cute?!” as asked menacingly by these girls and women is really code for “You are a feminine representation of black beauty, and that cannot stand, because white racism teaches us that there’s no such thing.”

 

There are certainly other explanations (you’re more than welcome to mention), but these seem to be the major factors. Nothing happens in a vacuum when it comes to dysfunctional behavior in black people. These overly aggressive girls have been encouraged and instructed to act out in this way. To  expect someone who has been actively encouraged to be the polar opposite of a feminine sensible lady to be anything else is a waste of time. At this point, as with anything involving DBR black people,  it’s best to just observe from a safe distance. 

 

Part II: The “Black Woman ‘Machoism’ Scale”: Where You Lie Could Mean Life and Death

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Kathy Henry 247 pts

I call this type of behavior ghetto not macho. Notice this type of behavior exists in poorer communities, not middle classed.

I understand where you're coming from with this post.  There are a lot of elements involved when it comes to violence among black girls in the African American community.  Violence in the home, in the streets, in the schools, coupled with stereotypes since the days of slavery that are still being played out in the media today, and the very real notion that women are just physically weaker than men and are therefore more vulnerable to attack.  The deeper issue is that 1.  we African Americans have struggled to form our own identity in regards to defining "blackness" "femininity" and "masculinity", and 2. we all live in a dangerous time where the black community, especially in poor neighborhoods are stressed the f*ck out  and take it out on each other. 

I see the overly aggressive girls in the street and on the bus.  However I think where the confusion that lies in your article is equating that anywhere near "anti-feminism".  Dangerous behavior is not acceptable for either gender while "anti-feminism" imo has to do with exhibiting behaviors not considered to be feminine.  Black women in general are looked at with a much harsher eye than other races because of our history in the US. What further complicates things is when overly aggressive behavior is even remotely seen as macho  or masculine and because that is being promoted within hip hop, that is what is being reflected in these girls (and boys). 

I completely agree with all your points about how this overly aggressive behavior comes out.  But I posit this theory so take it for what it's worth:

 

Aggression, masculinity, femininity, violence, and machismo were always present in all human beings. It was for survival way back when.  Now however we live in "civilized" society with rules and social norms that are now being redefined.  It saddens me when I read about the "horrors" of feminism when it's original intention was to help women have a voice outside of the home.  Because we are living the fruits of the "burning bras" like access to education, employment opportunities, women's health access, etc, that to again, equate violence with "anti-feminity" is a misnomer.  All women needed to wake up their masculine, or violent side, just like men need to wake up their feminine or softer side, in order to be balanced people.  Where the confusion lies for everyone is how to channel it all in a way that benefits themselves and society.  Out right violence among girls is about violence, not "anti-femininity".  Those are two separate arguments though I can see why you related the two.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

@chelleorc, while I do agree with portions of your comment, understand....I have no interest in delving into white feminist theories. I'm sort of wary of anything white feminists have to say about WOC especially as in recent years they've made it quite clear in the mainstream movement that they either don't care about the problems that black women are having or they feel the need to speak over WOC, talk down to WOC, write WOC out of feminist history, or steal outright form WOC.

 

So please excuse me if I'm not now nor ever in the mood to hear anything related to white feminist theories. 

 

I can say honestly that my concerns are more closer to home, and that's why I'm interested in theories closer to home. As for my intent in writing it. It was about stripped femininity, and this particular consequence: Macho black girls. Not merely masculine but macho, which I defined at the beginning of the post.

 

Machoism is an extreme behavior that as defined leads to a greater lack of safety for the person exhibiting it. The definition focused on men, but I agree that it's also unsafe in black women. In fact, even more unsafe.

 

 

This post was more or less addressing the theories for why black women and girls act like this. The next post tackles just how deadly these behaviors can be.

 

 

This isn't about feminism/anti-feminism or my misgivings. It's about abnormal behavior patterns in black girls and women that can get them killed. This is, I must politely state, not the post for pretending that a movement not remotely centered on black women is where I was going in terms of explaining black woman-centric problems.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

@chelleorc

 

Sorry if that came across as a bit harsh but I'm just REALLY at the end of my rope with that particular group of women and I don't think this is particularly the thread to go there.

 

And yes, it did irk me a bit that this particular post, which was not necessarily created for reasons having anything to do with upholding or bashing (white) feminism is being drawn away from the point, which is black girls adopting behaviors that we cannot pretend are safe or sane.

 

They aren't safe or sane in men, and black girls, who are poorly regarded in the black community, we cannot pretend are any safer.

Live Free 20 pts

This is an excellent post Toni and I am so happy this issue is being discussed on a pro black woman social media platform.  From reading your posts over the last few months I think you should write full books about your choosen topics as they are truly enlightening and substantive. I agree with ALL of the points you mentioned in this post.  My head is reeling becuase I've witnessed and experience them personally. Funny how these relavent points are neglected when the mainstream and the black community love to make incorrect generalizations about black women. For the most part, black women are unprotected which allows for the constant attacks they receive.  It kills me when people talk of the result instead of the blantant cause of the 'hardening behavior'.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 Live Free Thanks very much. :)

keimiasmoon 1073 pts

I've always called this behavior "combative" or "aggressive". I think that sexual harassment is a large part of it. In short, these Black girls do not feel safe enough in their communities to be vulnerable. They feel they have to be loud and aggressive in order to stave off harm. I used to notice that while riding the subway or the bus that the most aggressive girls were the middle schoolers, the ones that have entered into puberty. Oh man, these girls would shout, scream, attack their male classmates, usually in fun, but still it was pretty darn agressive. They were worse than the boys! It makes sense, that as they are developing they'd build an armor around themselves for protection. I think it's sad that they feel the need to do this. 

Avoc42883 1269 pts

One thing I notice that keeps coming up, constantly equating "macho" or "aggressive" behavior with masculinity or "being a man".  In the video the bus driver states (roughly), "If she's gonna act like a man, I'm gonna treat like one".  He equates her act of violence with masculinity and his reaction with masculinity.  When as far as I'm concerned, for both  parties it was just plain old aggression. 

 

Honestly, knowing my boyfriend.  If he were a  bus driver and this happened to them....  He'd wipe himself off and call the cops.  He'd probably call me when he got off from the shift and vent.  He'd go have a beer with his boys and cool off.  I just can't see him uppercutting someone and throwing them.   I can see any of the men in my life reacting that way, my brother, my male friends, my ex boyfriends.  Even if the person that hit them were male too. That doesn't make them any less of a man.

 

I've personally witnessed the men in my life avoid conflict on multiple occasions.  They have careers and other things on the line, they can't risk going to jail for assault or coming into a meeting Monday morning with a black eye.

 

Gender roles affect how we process this situation, the language we use to talk about it.  But what happened has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the culture of aggression in these communities.   You have two people walking around literally and figuratively swinging their arms, eventually they are going to hit someone.  If it wasn't a bus driver that girl assaulted it probably would have been someone else that day or that week.  And I'm sure that's not the first fight mr. bus driver has been in.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 Avoc42883 "One thing I notice that keeps coming up, constantly equating "macho" or "aggressive" behavior with masculinity or "being a man". 

 

This is misleading believe it or not. "Macho" or "hyper aggressive" behaviors are undesirable, even in men. These type of guys as I stated tend to be of the DBR variety - quick-tempered, violent, misogynistic/woman-hating, unfaithful, etc.

 

The exaggerated traits are DANGEROUS to men, often because they lead to situations where these guys are harmed or killed due to their inability to back down from aggressive behaviors.

 

You see it in gangbangers who get in fights and someone gets killed. Or guys who disrespectfully cat-call women and follow them down the street insulting them when their advances are rejected. Or in men who think that physical dominance of women establishes and affirms their own masculininity.

 

This type of behavior isn't about gender norms, simply because this behavior is not normal or acceptable in ANYONE in today's functioning society. But it is especially problematic in black women because (1) if a behavior like this is unsafe and undesirable in men, how does that make it any *less* safe and *more* desirable in black women? (2) These characteristics are often exhibited in black girls as a symptom of a greater problem (relating back to the black community and various nurtured pathologies) and (3) the promotion of black women as violent, mean, and dangerous is hardly an image worth defending and promoting under any circumstances.

 

In any case, I do agree that both persons are clearly used to questionable behavior patterns if this is how they react in a situation like this. Though, it's interesting that BOTH readily abide by the "no snitching" rules regarding refusal to interact with police.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 Avoc42883 ***As for what he said about "being a man", I do agree that his ideology is questionable for the reasons I laid out about the lack of desirability of "macho" behaviors. If anything, his own behavior and the consequences validate my statements.

Neecy 1975 pts

Great post Toni!!!

 

I've read all the comments and i have to agree that this behavior with violent, hyer-aggressive, fight ready black girls is certainly a new phenomenon in the last couple of decades. I'm late 30's and even in the early 80's Black women were much more refined and less aggressive and mean than these days.

 

Also Black women weren't  or were rarely fat back in the 70's and 80's and 60's when we were at out most feminine. So fatness with Black owmen is also a newly recent phenomenon. If you look at the Black owmen from 70's and 80's and 60's there were more feminine looking and shapley fit looking BW than we could ever imagine seeing today.

 

Something definitley has gone wrong in last couple decades with Black women overall where we have lost our sense of womanhood and femininity.

 

And let me just state for the record I believe in gender roles and identify with the lables of femininity and masculinity. NOT in the superficial sense (i.e. women need to be in heels and full on make up and dresses 24/7 or men need to be all muscles, bravado etc.).

 

But i don't buy into that feminist crap that women and men are alike and are the same.

 

Its late and I'm rambling as usual. i htink i better come back tomorrow and try again. LOL

KingsDaughter 4985 pts

Neecy

 ....

But i don't buy into that feminist crap that women and men are alike and are the same."

 

Agreed. We're NOT the same. I don't want to be like a man.Interestingly enough, I actually grew up with only brothers as siblings and did a lot of things boys did but still I wouldn't say I was a tomboy. Hardly. I remember in highschool I did stuff like metal and wood work very well etc but I've never had the DESIRE to emphasize or  be very competitive about it  in the "aha- evidence that men and women are the same!" kind of thing. I have skills, can fix complicated things but my life is not a constant battle to prove how equal to/stronger/ better than a man I am.  I like being female, enjoy girly things and I don't want to be any other way. I do believe in gender roles and would for example, as my own personal choice, not mind being a homemaker or stay at home mom if the situation called for it and from my Christian world view I believe the man is the head of the home. I have no problems with that.

 

heyimPearlilikefries 2123 pts

 Neecy  It's funny actually. I hear more black women saying that they don't buy or listen to feminist crap. I honestly don't care for them. And that slut walk thing was pathetic. I get the cause.. but WHY did they have to do THAT? LMAO I am more for women's rights, like equal education, equal job opportunities, voting, etc. 

 

I feel feminists want to demonize men's natural habits and functions. I also feel that feminists want to be superior to men, actually hearing some one them say "you're such a man" like it's an insult. They just flat out hate men. I mean.. damn all women wanted was equal education, the right to vote and to work... they went crazy on it. Burning bras...? I can't even... I can't even take what they do seriously anymore. I'm independent to all of that. 

NoDramaCiCi 365 pts

I like a lot of the points you made. Especially Explanation #1. I absolutely agree. When I first saw the uppercut video I wondered about what this woman must have gone through in her life that lead to this "learned behavior." She must have been in situations before where she was unprotected (due to lack of protective men in her life) and had to defend herself, to male and female.

 

By the way, I am a Cleveland native and have witness this kind of nonsence since elementary school. I've encountered some violent-ass girls in my time. I have concluded that they are this way because they are unprotected and want to appear viscious to deter any bullying or abuse.

heyimPearlilikefries 2123 pts

"You think you cute"... I have been there. And it really do makes me wish all of them would drop dead. But I know where their behavior comes from and it makes me try to be understanding.. but it really does piss me off. "Uppity bitch" and "Bougie White-washed whore" is another one. smdh. 

 

I'm just glad I never got hit in the face by one of these women/girls. 

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 TheZitaZitomihr  I am not a fighter and I feel no shame in admitting this. I am a pepper-sprayer though. I have NO qualms regarding stepping over people rolling around on the ground clutching their eyes because they tried me.

heyimPearlilikefries 2123 pts

 Toni_M Yes I love that stuff. It get's them on the floor fast enough so you can run. LOL I'm not afraid to admit I'm not a fighter, I talk mess though. I like dramatic slapping though. That's the one thing that I will do, but kind of dealing with these kinds of girls that I really can't do. I have seen horrible videos of these girls fighting like they are on UFC... maybe I would need bear mace for them. 

 

But I still do feel sympathy for them and I DO understand. But when it's done to you directly and enough for you to look back and be upset it's different. It's like I understand, but you WILL be maced. 

Interesting point of view. I am White and a mother to two daughters who are Black and White. I chose to move to an area that was predominately Black because I thought they would be more comfortable and safe from racism. I must say it's been no picnic living where we do. My daughters have been targeted since the early years of school with the "You think your all that", "you think you cute" and accusations of them supposedly always wanting some boy. Girls have even came to my house and assaulted my daughters. Not only is this frustrating, but I feel so much anger and I just do not know what else to do to make the madness stop. Moving is not an option.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. My immediate reaction if it's involving specific girls would be to put out a restraining order. If there is evidence of repeated assaults and witnesses to these events, it may be necessary to get the police involved and press charges.

 

You may have other persons try to guilt you out of such actions by persons labeling you a "racist" or insisting there is a way to work around this behavior without getting the police/courts involved. Ignore them. What you will come to realize is that persons like that feel it is wrong of victims to report the people who harm them to the police. They claim that they prefer dealing with problems "in house", but all that really means is sweeping the issue under the rug and doing nothing.

 

Don't buy into it. Contact whoever you have to in order to make these issues stop. You may even have to look into whether or not your daughters can carry mace or pepper spray.

 

As for moving not being an option, do you mean in the short term? Because I do not look for a situation like this to improve. We are advising black women to move AWAY from the majority black communities for a reason: They're growing more and more dangerous to everyone living in or near them. I honestly would not recommend staying in such an environment indefinitely. Even if you can't move now, I sincerely hope you are weighing long term options. This may mean saving little by little, and looking for affordable housing some place else.

 

Good luck to you and your daughters.

 

Does anyone else have any input regarding this situation?

 

 

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 Lady Arabella Victoria  The video you linked is already being discussed in another topic thread linked near the beginning of this post in the paragraph following the "Machoism" definition. To share your opinion on that video, please go to the related post.

 

Thanks!

Lady Arabella Victoria 46 pts

Toni:

 

Thanks. I must have missed the original post.

 

Lady Arabella Victoria

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 Lady Arabella Victoria No problem!

MixedUpInVegas 1691 pts

In many families, the father is often the one to help both male and female children to learn to control aggressiveness and redirect it into more productive activities.  Mother may break up fights among siblings, but fathers are the ones who seem to have a better handle on the nature of aggressive behavior and ways to channel or control it.  Successful men who have managed to avoid trouble with the law have learned useful means of managing anger and impulsive aggression and teach that to their children as a part of the civilizing influence of family life.  So in that respect, I agree with you, Tony.

 

Earlier on there was some comment made about whether or not it was appropriate to label aggressive behavior as hyper-aggressive on it's face.  I'd like to posit that any behavior that results in unprovoked physical or psychological harm to another and/or crosses the line into the criminal in nature is, by definition, hyperaggressive.  The law definines it quite clearly without the need to witness each and every incident.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

MixedUpInVegas

The beginning of your comment reminded me of a discussion which brought up aggressive behaviors in young male elephants. This is definitely out of left-field I know, but what was REALLY interesting is that these young males were brought to heel by older male elephants, who taught them what behaviors were and weren't acceptable.

 

And when an elephant male is in "must", they are especially aggressive and out of control. But the older males could bring them to heel anyway, REGARDLESS of whether they themselves where in must or not. 

 

Nature is what it is: In a structured society of any kind, there are behaviors that are acceptable, and behaviors that are not. And if you act up, there are consequences. Especially when your behavior is a danger to yourself  and or others. Because such behaviors get in the way of survival.

 

FriendsofJay 1975 pts

 Toni_M  MixedUpInVegas How I wish fathers in the US----black or white---would do what the older male elephants do for the younger males.  I have witnessed black fathers break up a fight between a black and a white boy, but I've never seen a white father do that. 

zipporah 1917 pts

@FriendsofJay @Toni_M @MixedUpInVegas It could be possible that guys fight, but end up friends later. My dad grew up during the depression, and 'put the gloves on' and spar other guys his age. They fight hard, BUT dont hold GRUDGES like girls do and become enemies. You probably heard of guys fighting, but ending up being lifetime friends?

KingsDaughter 4985 pts

 FriendsofJay  Toni_M  MixedUpInVegas I was reminded of this story I'd heard about and did some googling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-B5W4lq_LmU

heyimPearlilikefries 2123 pts

 MixedUpInVegas When my mother used to tell me to get up in the morning for school, I would ignore her. Then my dad would come in and say get up and I'll get up QUICK. It's really weird. I guess it's the voice or masculine presence?

MixedUpInVegas 1691 pts

 TheZitaZitomihr

 Zita, you can bargain with Mom, but Daddy don't play.  I know my father didn't like to have to say the same thing twice.  If we needed reminding, he had more dynamic ways of making a lasting impression.

JennMJack 1270 pts

Great post Toni. I think you hit on a major subject which often gets jumbled with BWE and other self-empowerment movements. Social messaging tells us that certain behaviors are "white" or "gay." So, people try to "act" like what they think fits their societal mold. Growing up in a hyper-aggressive environment where most of the women in my family have shot, mamed, or stabbed someone, I can attest to the fact that these messages on what femininity should be like are extremely damaging. And, knowing many women that have been sexually or physically abused, I find that your explanations are enlightening. We definitely need more dialogue on this issue of femininity in the Black community and how the effects of slavery have had lasting influence on what Black femininity means.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 JennMJack I think this definitely needs to be a post, because so much of what black women today understand "femininity" to be is based solely on white ideology. Which is bizarre because it's not like you have non-African American women who all look to white Western civilization to define their femininity and or womanhood. There is a misunderstanding regarding femininity and feminine power that it was created by men or defined by the patriarchy, and I think that gives women far too little credit the world over.

zipporah 1917 pts

@Toni_M @JennMJack its not just 'white ideoloy' but asian as well. Remember the lotus foot of little girls? they made girls either weaker, or softer than the boys---the best 'ideology' is one where girls could be safe being tomboys BUT ALSO being feminine as well---

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

I want to thank everyone for their feedback, whether they agreed with the topic or not. If you DO NOT agree with the topic, please offer alternative explanations. There's going to be a second part and I'd really love as many alternative explanations as possible as I'm fallible and there's certainly angles that I may be missing.

 

But understand, this post is NOT about non-hyper aggression in non-"macho" black girls and women. I'm not talking about tomboys or lesbians, or feminists. I'm not talking about well-adjusted adults or teens from backgrounds that are stable and enabled them to make informed decisions about their identity.

 

There can be no mistaking what I mean about "macho" because the definition and link to the entire article defining the phenomenon is right there. If those definitions and examples do not fit you or your perceptions, then it is not you being discussed, and you have no reason to feel attacked.

 

Some further reading on that point: 

 

http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/move-away-from-the-bulls-eye-part-1-youre-not-obligated-to-be-a-direct-hit/

 

tracyreneejones 4057 pts

@Toni_M as the only vocal LGBT troll I want you to know that it is clear you did not mean the type of girls who are male identified whether in gender orientation or otother wise. I'm not sure why that isn't clear to some, however, I'll add discussions of gender, identity and sexual orientations are archaic when it comes to the BC so e confusion is telling of another issue entirely.

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

I wanted to throw this out as an example of a woman is is considered unfeminine and probably aggressive, but is not unnecessarily so: Hilary Clinton. She does not show a particularly feminine exterior, and is considered aggressive as per her profession. Many people may criticize these traits in her. But conversely, she is married and raised a child (who seems to be particularly feminine herself). And again, you're not going to find Hilary Clinton acting in a fashion that would be considered unruly even for a man. 

 

I don't believe this piece to be attacking women with temperaments that would be considered traditionally unfeminine but still adhere to the simple rules of right and wrong. Women are free to define femininity and womanhood for themselves, but we all still have to follow the rules of decency and society. Just as men do, despite whatever inherent aggressiveness they may have. 

 

The women being described often tend to think they are above society or above the law, or only want to put the cards of femininity into play when they are called on their BS; and say, to get above society or the law. "You can't treat me xyz way because I'm a woman" while they are acting in whatever uncouth or unruly way they choose. 

 

Think Sheneneh from the TV show Martin, who would act in all sorts of crazy ways and then turn around talking about "I'm a laaady." 

 

Um, no. 

 

I feel even if a woman is not traditionally feminine, she can and will still act in ways that will garner her respect and consideration not only as a woman but as a person. 

 

The women being described do not do such things. They feel it within their right to act however they wish and still demand respect, or, act however they wish in order to garner respect. They try to display dominance without any regard that they can, and probably will, be easily dominated. Such sensibilities do tend to be inherently male, and do not tend to be displayed by well adjusted women, even if they are not particularly or traditionally feminine. 

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 VintageNarcissa  LOL, bless you for being in this post getting my point. Especially with this example:

 

"[Clinton] does not show a particularly feminine exterior, and is considered aggressive as per her profession. Many people may criticize these traits in her. But conversely, she is married and raised a child (who seems to be particularly feminine herself). And again, you're not going to find Hilary Clinton acting in a fashion that would be considered unruly even for a man. "

 

Now, anyone can see and think of a NUMBER of examples of well adjusted, leading women who do not adhere to traditional feminine ideals. And women who do. Feminism is about CHOICE: Choosing to be what you want to be and not letting pre-conceived notions stop you.

 

 

"I don't believe this piece to be attacking women with temperaments that would be considered traditionally unfeminine but still adhere to the simple rules of right and wrong. Women are free to define femininity and womanhood for themselves, but we all still have to follow the rules of decency and society. Just as men do, despite whatever inherent aggressiveness they may have. 

 

The women being described often tend to think they are above society or above the law, or only want to put the cards of femininity into play when they are called on their BS; and say, to get above society or the law. "You can't treat me xyz way because I'm a woman" while they are acting in whatever uncouth or unruly way they choose. 

 

Think Sheneneh from the TV show Martin, who would act in all sorts of crazy ways and then turn around talking about "I'm a laaady." 

 

Yes, exactly. And I wasn't actually going to bring up that last example until the second part, but I'm glad you went there. 

 

This is exactly what I'm addressing, and the behavior is merely a hindrance at best and downright dangerous at worse. In some cases, it is far TOO LATE to remember "you are a lady" after you've crossed the wrong people. Because not everyone cares.

FriendsofJay 1975 pts

 VintageNarcissa As for Hillary Clinton not being particularly feminine yet having a feminine daughter, I have two nieces------sisters-----who couldn't be more different.  One is a tomboy to the nth degree, the other is super feminine.  BTW, I can tell you from a white guy's perspective that we don't like macho girls.  We don't mind a girl with a bit of the tomboy in her, but we like girls to act like ladies, not like the stereotype of lady truck drivers.  Is it all that much different in the BC?

iHeartLove 805 pts

"If you have a man present that is respectful of women, who encourages you to be feminine and delicate, and who allows you to feel protected, I honestly believe that you are very unlikely to develop such aggressive and violent tendencies."

 

Men "encouraging you to be feminine and delicate?"....  

 

When will society stop defining a woman's gender identity and womanhood through men? A man controls whether a woman or a little girl fits into normalized gender roles or not?

 

A man controls how feminine a little girl will grow up to be?...

 

I could easily argue the opposite and have it ring more true. Like a girl growing up with a father, but not a mother, and so she has no woman to learn from about make-up, clothes, or other typically feminine designated things. That seems more like the logical scenario of how a missing parent would affect how a child's gender identity develops. 

 

Father's don't teach their daughters how to be feminine, mothers do. 

 

This topic is very touchy for many women, myself included. Feminine has never been used to describe me, but I am not macho, angry, aggressive, or mean. I come from a 2 parent home and I have never been abused. Growing up I was a nerdy and unfashionable goody-two-shoes who would rather watch sci-fi movies or wrestling on TV with my Dad than go shopping or wear a skirt :) haha. Calculus was easier than make-up for me. That is not a joke.

 

There are many BW out there like me. Not all women who are not traditionally feminine are thugs traumatized by some unfortunate event or circumstance. As though society's current definition of femininity is the defacto state and norm for girls. It is not. Growing up I really hated any time someone would comment on how I dressed or looked saying that I wasn't girly enough. It didn't matter that I was a ridiculously well behaved kid who excelled in school and kept my room clean, or more importantly that I was a young woman who showed respect to others, myself. Nope. What clothes are you wearing? Make-up? Why can't you cook? These "why aren't you more feminine" questions came from the women in my family, not the men. 

 

My mother is incredibly girly and has been since childhood, but unfortunately for her, she is the mother of two tomboy girls and this exasperated her to no end when we were growing up. Her attempts to "feminize" us were often comedic, but also sometimes sad and confusing, ending in mother-daughter fights that were never resolved. Even though my chest was well on it's way to being the glory ;) that it is now, my mother and others in my family would always ask me why I wouldn't wear a dress to this or that party so that I actually looked like a girl. Like I could possibly be mistaken for otherwise. My teenage years were a long time ago and I've certainly changed. I have a fashion sense now, I wear skirts and once in a while a dress. Yet I still get comments from my family members and I can always tell when they are complimenting me for looking girly as a way to encourage me to do it more often. Sometimes though these compliments are disappointing to me because it feels like they would somehow be more proud of me as a woman if my dress and appearance fit the feminine stereotype better. Just because of that- even if I was exactly the same person, but wearing heels I would somehow be better. Something about that kind of pressure just feels wrong to me.

 

So I thought I would share a bit of my own experience to say that I honestly think the problem with these girls who are hyper-aggressive and violent is that they have deep seeded issues that they need to deal with, not that they are not feminine enough. 

 

I think what would have been helpful in the post is a definition of 'feminine' and 'femininity' because we are probably working with different definitions of what does and does not constitute femininity. I noticed in the comments below that people made reference to being made fun of for "talking white" by "macho" black girls, but I would say that "talking white" has nothing to do with how feminine a person is or isn't being that there are Black girls in the hood who have very feminine traits, but do not speak proper English. 

 

 

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

 iHeartLove It's not necessarily *femininity* that the presence of a father in a girl's life promotes, it's again the lack of aggressiveness or excessive aggressiveness - is how I interpreted this piece. Even if a female child is not particularly "girly" or "womanly," which there is nothing wrong with, having a father in her life still teaches her limits in which she can express herself in that way.

 

This actually conversely also affects the father. Many studies show that men tend to become more gentle and less self centered when they are married and then have children because of a slight drop in testosterone allows them to nurturing toward their children. The men then turn around and teach their children right and wrong and how to control their aggressiveness or what are the right times and places to express that aggressiveness. 

 

Male children are a different story because their own burgeoning testosterone, will in essence overtake their father's at a certain point, until they have children of their own. But they still fall under same umbrella that the lack of a father often causes them to have levels of aggressiveness that remains unchecked throughout their lives. This is a wide berth example, but I remember there was a story that talked about young male elephants in a zoo in Australia were exhibiting excessively aggressive behavior in trying to escape their pens and the elephants had been separated from their fathers. The report detailed that young male elephants in the wild with their fathers present don't act like that. I mean how ironic is it that the lack of a father causes elephants in captivity to act wilder than elephants in the wild?

 

But the general idea is there's a big difference between rough and tumble and unnecessarily aggressive and violent. Rough and tumble can still adhere to the laws of common decency. Rough and tumble will wrestle with her father and brothers. Unnecessarily aggressive and violent picks a fight with a male bus driver thinking 1. that she can actually win, and 2. that the man won't hit her back. Then suddenly turns into a defenseless woman when she is hit back. You don't have to be feminine or order to follow the laws of society.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 VintageNarcissa  iHeartLove  "It's not necessarily *femininity* that the presence of a father in a girl's life promotes, it's again the lack of aggressiveness or excessive aggressiveness"

 

EXACTLY. We've already had it stated from a few sources that tomboyishness was also common in childhood, even with a father in the home. When I say freedom to "do other things", I mean just that. What that person chooses to do is up to them.

iHeartLove 805 pts

 Toni_M  VintageNarcissa "If you have a man present that is respectful of women, who encourages you to be feminine and delicate, and who allows you to feel protected, I honestly believe that you are very unlikely to develop such aggressive and violent tendencies."

 

I put the quote there for reference again. 

 

Maybe I am being too literal. VintageNarcissa, you said, "It's not necessarily *femininity* that the presence of a father in a girl's life promotes, it's again the lack of aggressiveness or excessive aggressiveness." I wholeheartedly agree with that specific comment. 

 

There is a difference between a father "who encourages you to be feminine and delicate," and one whose presence deters excessive aggressiveness. These are two different situations IMO.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 iHeartLove  VintageNarcissa If you are having problem with the literalness of that statement, I'll make it easy for you: I'm not talking about encouraging you to BE feminine and delicate as if that's all you can be; I mean ENCOURAGING you to feel you can be feminine and delicate because you do not feel forced to "harden" or "toughen" because you have no one to look after you, take care of you, or protect you.

 

I also note you were so caught up in that portion that you IGNORED what followed, which was the major point: "Why would you have to? You have a male provider and protector in your home, or in your family circle. You know that if someone tries to harm you, there is a man you can turn to who will defend your honor. This reinforces your sense of value as a young lady who knows what it is to be appreciated, respected, and protected by a man. Therefore, you have nothing to prove to anyone, and are mentally and emotionally free to pursue other things."

 

In other words, even if you are NOT traditionally feminine (I wasn't), you don't feel any pressure to harden or toughen because of having no male present to look after you. You should be more than aware of the "Daddy Complex" a lot of young black girls have where their lack of father or father figure leads them to go on a quest looking for a proxy. This can result in hooking up with thugs, pimps, or some other abusive persons. Having NO point of reference in terms of how someone cares for and protects you in that role can lead to an inability to understand what to look for.

 

A girl who has a father or father figure is less likely to be pre-occupied with that void. 

 

And that's just one particular example. Here, as I stated, you have girls who've been thrown to the wolves because the parent that is in their life simply either does not care or is so overwhelmed, they do not have the time or energy to care. They are left to their own devices, and especially vulnerable to predators and abuse. 

 

These are just a few explanations as to why these type of girls act out as they do.

 

This is the LAST TIME I'm going to address commentary that does not lead back to the point, because this particular issue concerns me in such a way, that I do not feel it is beneficial to pretend that the wording is more problematic than the issue: Girls who are hyper aggressive, emulating dangerous "black machoism" behaviors, and how this ties into anti-black femininity (in dark-skinned women especially) and racio-misogny. 

 

Definitions of black feminism can and will be discussed in a future post. With the post that inspired this, I could have gotten into a LONG series of arguments about the behavior of the young woman in question, but even though it was  relevant to her behavior, it was NOT relevant to that discussion. So I created another post.

 

Please understand that future comments should be about the central issue in this post. 

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 iHeartLove  VintageNarcissa *definitions of black femininity and feminism, sorry.

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

 iHeartLove  Toni_M "There is a difference between a father "who encourages you to be feminine and delicate," and one whose presence deters excessive aggressiveness. These are two different situations IMO." 

 

With that I have to disagree. Whether a woman grows up feminine or unfeminine as per her father's influence is not really the issue. But in both situations his influence will teach her how to conduct herself in society and obey the law. Maybe a woman will grow up to be aggressive as per her profession, as in my example of Hilary Clinton. But she is not going to be physically aggressive and attempting to dominate others through violence or other unruly behavior. Again, that is was I grasped from Toni's article. Women can grow up without a father and still present an outwardly feminine exterior yet still be physically aggressive and violent. Either way you slice it, a woman with the influence of a father is more likely to simply have the sense to know how to conduct herself in public and treat people with respect. 

iHeartLove 805 pts

 VintageNarcissa Father's are very important to how their daughter's grow up and develop. I completely agree with that. But I do think that mothers play a central role in defining their daughters femininity. To a young girl, a father is the central figure for what a man should be and her mother is also the central figure for what a woman should be. 

VintageNarcissa 3152 pts

 iHeartLove I think a mother's contribution in shaping a daughter's femininity and womanhood goes without saying. But that's not what is not what we're talking about in this topic, and I for one am trying to stay on topic. Yes a father is the central figure for what a man should be. He will not only teach her how men should treat her, but also how she should treat men. I feel hard pressed to believe that a woman who was well raised by her father (and mother) would catch herself trying to fight a bus driver when she was in the wrong in the first place - regardless of the logistics of how her mother affected her own femininity. I remain with my original argument. 

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

 iHeartLove  VintageNarcissa "To a young girl, a father is the central figure for what a man should be and her mother is also the central figure for what a woman should be."

 

Which, believe it or not, was the major point of the explanation you had such an issue with. XD I just took the long way around but in the end, yep, that's what I was getting at.

Toni_M 20103 pts moderator

iHeartLove

With all due respect, you're derailing:

 

"

Note: For the purpose of this article, I’m dealing with a specifically observed issue that has nothing to do with “butch” lesbianism in black women or non-black women. What I’m talking about is not an outgrowth of self-identified sexuality, sexual expression, or a conscious decision by the individual to move away from gender norms and form their own identity. This post is on something ENTIRELY different.

 

*********

 

Machoism: Prominently exhibited or displayed masculinity….Characteristics includedomineering, fierceness, bravado, and similar behavior patterns displayed showily orhistrionically as being tough…The machismo of members of the human species are all exaggerated features that may cause injury to individuals that display them but attract females."

 

 

I made clear right there that I was excluding a great number of women from this post as to eliminate confusion. And yet you're reintroducing them in this topic as if I'm NOT talking about a VERY SPECIFIC problem.

 

This post is simply NOT about the women that this doesn't affect. That includes white feminists, non-black lesbians, etc. I have no desire to muddle the issue in this post by pretending I'm speaking about ANYBODY but these hyper aggressive girls and women. When someone is functioning at an extreme and it's working against them and hurting them and they're hurting others, there's a problem.

 

I offered possible explanations, but as I said, there are probably MORE, and people are welcome to share. What they're NOT welcome to do is pretend that I'm writing about "how all black women should be girly and wear dresses". That was not who I was, and I wouldn't expect that to be everyone.

 

 

If you were and are not going around angry and aggressive all the time, beating up without provocation, threatening and menacing people, especially those girls perceived as feminine and "cute", then guess what? This post is not about you, or whoever else you have in mind that DOES NOT fit that mold.

 

 

 

If you have alternative explanations for the behavior that deviate from what I've written, by all means share them. But please understand, I'm not going to be derailed by people who want to cherry-pick around the heart of this post and completely miss the point.