Macho Little Black Girls Part II: Machoism Kills….No Exceptions.

Macho Little Black Girls Part II: Machoism Kills….No Exceptions.

“I do strongly suspect that this behavior is a sadistic attempt to encourage black women into a mentality and lifestyle that “protects them” from being feminine little girls. Because there are too many predators in the black community who don’t see a sweet little girl. Instead, they see a wet hole just asking for it because she’s a ho anyway.”

Author : Toni

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In order to get on with the second part to this post, I made myself finish watching the rather disturbing video posted in another discussion topic. It wasn’t easy, because I tend to feel nothing is gained from watching hoodrats act like hoodrats. Aside from a “do not act like this” sort of lesson. But then I don’t need to watch people behave like rabid animals to come away with that logic. If one understands how to function in society, it becomes a given.

But not all black women know how to function in society. Especially not in a way that is safe and sensible, let alone not embarrassing. But lets put aside embarrassing and focus on “safe and sensible”.

 

I’m going to re-introduce the definition of machoism from the previous post. AGAIN, please note the emphasis:

 

MachoismProminently exhibited or displayed masculinity….Characteristics include domineering, fierceness, bravado, and similar behavior patterns displayed showily or histrionically as being tough…The machismo of members of the human species are all exaggerated features that may cause injury to individuals that display them but attract females.

 

I say again from the above definition, “MAY CAUSE INJURY TO INDIVIDUALS THAT DISPLAY THEM.”

 

So then, anyone want to look at that video of the woman being tasered or the video of the woman getting her lights knocked out by the bus driver and tell me how what I witnessed did not fall under this category? Machoism, by its very definition is the combination of behaviors that are overly aggressive attempts to show off how “hardcore” you are and being placed in a situation that will very likely lead to harm.

And this is true of men.

 

I asked before, and I ask again, “If this behavior is dangerous to men, how does it become safe or okay for women?”

 

 

The answer remains the same: It does NOT.

 

 

I called the behavior an attack on black femininity and I’m not backing down from that claim. If anything, something in the video (other than the violence) happened that I found to be very interesting.

One of the children of the macho women in the video starts yelling, “THAT’S WHY YOU’RE GAY!” While what I assume is his mother or his mother’s friend is calling this guy a p*ssy.

The implication is that unless he acts in as an aggressive manner as they are, his masculinity is in jeopardy of being non-existant. He is not a man, he is a woman and this is somehow bad. This is the cornerstone of macho-thinking: I am challenging your manhood, and if you are a man, you will step to me and prove your masculinity.

 

Let’s stop and think about this for a moment. Femininity and womanhood is removed from this logic to the extent where it is expected that both parties recognize each other as masculine beings. Yes, that is exactly what we are seeing. Not only that, it is being openly detested and used as a goading tactic to incite violence.

How common is this behavior between overly aggressive and testosterone-laden males? And how common is it that from that point, it very well does escalate to violence?

 

And herein lies the problem when it comes to macho little black girls, teens, and women: They are not exceptions to the violence they are inciting.

Machoism in women is not a “have your cake and eat it too!” reality, where you get to behave in a way where you are challenging men as a man yourself, completely forsaking your womanhood, and then expect everyone to remember that you are a woman and that no harm will come to you.

 

The look of shock on the woman’s face (that’s not a pun, she looked shocked) when she got tased said it all. She honestly thought she could physically threaten this man, attack this man, and then everything would work out because she’s a woman. She tried it with the wrong man.

And she remains lucky that it was her pride that was hurt and she’ll be leaving with her life. People have been tased to death, you know.

 

But still, what if it had been a man with a gun? Or sans weapon, what if she was beaten to death right there in front of her crying children?

 

Tough questions must be asked of any community that attempts to normalize dangerous behaviors in women because they feel it’s safer to have hypermasculine little girls, lest they become “fast” little black girls. Tracy made a very telling observation in the referenced post:

“Don’t be too shocked ladies, lack of teaching about black female ‘hygiene’ is another form of them avoiding her ‘fastness’… That’s not poverty, that’s a mental condition causing the neglect. ”

 

I do strongly suspect that this behavior is a sadistic attempt to encourage black women into a mentality and lifestyle that “protects them” from being feminine little girls. Because there are too many predators in the black community who don’t see a sweet little girl. Instead, they see a wet hole just asking for it because she’s a ho anyway. And the further a little girl is from, well a little girl, the less likely she’s supposed to be confused with one. If she’s out challenging men and threatening violence, no one would think about sexing her…right?

Well…the women in the video were mothers so there goes that logic.

What we have instead is the Frankenstein creation of neglect and ignorance, the false belief that womanhood cast aside can be trusted to be remembered by every challenged party. The machoism that is getting women hurt and killed.

 

No one is saying wear a dress always and throw tea parties. No one is saying be “traditionally” feminine. At least I’m not saying this.

 

What I am trying to drive home is the reality of machoism, and that it is an unhealthy level of aggression that gets men AND women hurt and killed.

I am not a romantic so I’m not going to lie to you about this: There are no exceptions to this rule.

If you play with fire, you are going to get burned. If you encourage black girls to act like overly aggressive prison yard criminals, then that’s how they’ll behave, and when they step to the wrong person, they are going to inevitably get hurt.

 

How does this behavior become corrected?

 

I honestly don’t know. I think if I person wants to change they can. Of course that requires they know there’s something fundamentally wrong with their behavior. Why would you change aspects of yourself that you don’t consider problematic?

 

I guess the first step is acknowledging that this is a problem that is far too common to be any good. That this is not the way to encourage your black daughters to be, even if you delude yourself into believing hyper aggression and black male criminal imitation is less problematic than everyone knowing your dealing with a girl/woman. Because the worst case scenario is absolute success: Your girl-child/daughter’s machoism encourages her to get in the face of someone who is armed and or dangerous and it gets her killed.

 

 

Author’s Note:

As before, I’m not taking about sexuality (although the homophobia/misogyny expressed is rather interesting given the behavior, and definitely worth a topic of its own) or being “a tomboy”. There is a CLEAR and distinct difference between being a tomboy and being a hyper-aggressive black girl trying to fight and beat up on everyone. Please don’t play dumb.

Also, please note again that machoism is a definition usually used to describe distinctly human male behaviors, while still calling those behaviors “harmful”. So understand this is a way of being that while masculine is still considered wrong. In other words, for those who think this is an attack on less traditional and feminine black women, here you have a definition aimed at men telling them that it is unsafe. Attempting to make it safe for women because they are women is not forward thinking or progressive and expect me to challenge you if you try and pass it off as such. There are too many hurt and dead black women proving otherwise.

 

 

 

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mzsunshine 2434 pts

I say again from the above definition, “MAY CAUSE INJURY TO INDIVIDUALS THAT DISPLAY THEM.”

 

And in my state of Florida, it could cause death.  I'm sure everyone is familiar with "Stand Your Ground' law.  Governor Rick Scott assembled a task force after the Trayvon Martin tradegy to see if there needed to be any changes made in the law.  The task force basically said NO.  They reported that no 'material' changes are needed to be made and that the law is legal and effective.  George Zimmerman's criminal act did not fall under this statue.

 

The law basically states that when facing death or great bodily harm, individuals can use DEADLY force and have NO DUTY TO RETREAT!

 

Oh yeah, machoism , MAY CAUSE INJURY (DEATH) TO INDIVIDUALS THAT DISPLAY THEM.

 

 

tracyreneejones 3589 pts

I know girls like this. And most of them are emotionally or mentally challenged. Even if the damage was done by external forces, they are still suffering from an 'ism. Don't know what to call it, but, yeah. 

heyimPearlilikefries 2091 pts

I really couldn't say anything after watching the video. 

 

I don't know what to say.

 

I really want to punch whoever made her that way, because she's just passing it on. 

EnJay 890 pts

Even thinking about that video hurts me more than I would have thought possible.  

 

I know things are very wrong in the black community (if there is such a thing), and I don't know the way back.  

 

I just help the people I can.  God help the rest.  

Jamila 7245 pts moderator

These women are both victims and victimizers; they are both the prey and the predators. 

 

I am reminded of two examples. One: Suppose a child is molested, and then because of what happened to him or or her, grows up to molest other children. The victim has now become a person who victimizes others. 

 

Two: Consider the dog that is naturally sweet-tempered, but has owners who begin to fight him  for money and abuse him in order to make him more aggressive. Once the dog is taken from his former owners he can no longer be placed for adoption and has to be put-down because it is virtually impossible for him to ever recover from the abuse of his youth. Yes, the dog won't necessarily always be violent, but would you be willing to have the dog around your small child while you figure out if redemption is possible. Probably not. 

 

Black women/girls who act like the women are like those abused children and those abused dogs. None of them started out that way, but over time the environment molded them into something they were never intended to be. 

Toni_M 18882 pts moderator

 Jamila "These women are both victims and victimizers; they are both the prey and the predators. "

 

This is a brilliant summary of the situation.

jakethewrestler 402 pts

I do quite a bit  mentor and help out youth in the inner city.  All you do give them a better view of the world.  that turns out to make a big difference./   at the same time i do not think the lady who got tasered will ever admit to faults.  we are just as much a product of out genetics as we are of our envirnment

Brenda55 19551 pts moderator

I am going to pose a few question and I want to direct this towards the women who generously shared their stories of growing up in a bad neighborhood and surviving it.

 

We get women posting here that we should not write off these communities and the people living in them.  So I ask.

 

What if anything can be done by a person who has not grown up in the same environment?

 

Would their intervention be welcome of effective?

 

Finally would you go back to the communities you left?  If you do what would you be doing there?

keimiasmoon 1035 pts

 Brenda55 I think it depends on the person. I do credit one of my high school teachers who encouraged me to apply to ivy league colleges and small elite liberal arts colleges. Before my list was mostly made up of the small local colleges and universities like NYU. If it wasn't for his encouragement I would never have attended one of the top liberal arts schools in the nation. Even now I'm amazed I had that opportunity. On the other hand, he gave encouragement to a lot of the girls to leave the nest and go out on their own. Unfortunately he had some parents telling him to stop encouraging their daughters to leave home. I saw many girls (of many races) from my honors classes apply to places no farther than the community college so they could remain at home. And it wasn't a financial issue either. So in my case the intervention was welcomed but in the cases of some of the other students it was not. I was the first one in my family to go to college and my mom took up every offer of help she could to make me successful in the process so she welcomed my teacher's suggestion.  Not all parents were the same. Other than that, the help that I got was usually passed along by word of mouth or from the initiative of my parents. I took dance classes, until my mom could no longer afford to send me. 

 

I think that someone in these communities can most certainly make the difference in individual lives, and if you're ok with that, that's fine. I think help would definitely be welcomed. Effective? I'm not sure. It depends what you mean by effective. 

 

As far as going back, there is no way you could pay me enough to live back in my neighborhood or raise a child there. I don't hate the people who live there by I do hate the negative behaviors that get accepted. What I want is a large scale cultural change so that the future for Black children is strong and bright. I don't want them born into communities where someone thinks it's ok for little girls to be booty popping, to go into full rage mode at the drop of hat, to abandon your children after birth or to accept low educational achievement. I can do this by being the change I want to see, being a loud voice for it and encouraging those who desperately want help. Besides, this is as much as I can do while I'm poor. Right now my focus is on finishing my degree and building a financially stable life for myself. If I win the lottery I will certainly create some some scholarships. :)

DU2 2203 pts

 Toni_M you said "Machoism in women is not a “have your cake and eat it too!” reality, where you get to behave in a way where you are challenging men as a man yourself, completely forsaking your womanhood, and then expect everyone to remember that you are a woman and that no harm will come to you."  EXACTLY and that was my argument with the bus driver debacle is that women cannot act like a man (fighting and aggression) then cry foul when their wish is granted. This is not about women "deserving" to be beat up, but when you behave like this your v-jay jay is not insurance you will not be harmed.

Brenda55 19551 pts moderator

 DU2  Toni_M One thing I find interesting that these women seem to challenge gainfully employed black men. The bus driver and this man a security guard.

 

I do not see videos like this where they challenge non-black men or the "corner boys and dealers in the hood. If this is true do you think that these women feel that these working  black men are not about to put their jobs in jeopardy and thus feel that they are safe targets? 

DWB 7526 pts

 Brenda55  DU2  Toni_M Perhaps these "macho" black women find successful black men as a challenge to their "manhood" ... if you catch my drift...

 

MATRIARCHY!!!!!!! :-)

tracyreneejones 3589 pts

 DWB  Brenda55  DU2  Toni_M Security guards and bus drivers aren't considered 'successful' jobs in the hood.

 

But nice try.....and these men aren't a threat to anyone's 'manhood', these women are still woman and view themselves as women regardless of what gender you prescribe to their behavior. A person with a job won't lose it over a fight with a pedestrian. The same reason why people steal from stores, who is gonna risk getting hurt to prevent them from stealing? Why jeopardize your job and health to stop me from stealing from your rich white employer. I have nothing to lose. The same way people used to jump turnstiles in NYC with wild abandon in front of the transit toll booth workers, who is gonna come out that booth and stop me? Why jeopardize your job? I have nothing to lose. 

 

It's quite simple. You fuck with who you can get away with, isn't that what bullies do?  

DeepWater 2464 pts

 DWB  Brenda55  DU2  Toni_M 

 

"Perhaps these "macho" black women find successful black men as a challenge to their "manhood" ... if you catch my drift...

 

MATRIARCHY!!!!!!! :-)"

 

Interesting observation, DWB, something I've thought about but could not articulate, interesting, indeed.

Brice Cameron 2071 pts

 Brenda55  DU2  Toni_M 

You answered the question I had.  I was wondering why these women seemed to feel they were immune to getting a beat down in response to their provocations.  It would seem to me that in the predatory environment of the hood, the strongest beat on the weakest.  Chivalry doesn't seem to apply, so why would women feel they could act that way toward a physically stronger person.  It must be that they think they know who they can behave that way towards.  They don't try that with the local thugs.

Jamila 7245 pts moderator

 Brenda55  DU2  Toni_M "One thing I find interesting that these women seem to challenge gainfully employed black men. The bus driver and this man a security guard."

 

That's an excellent observation. 

 

I think there is a general disdain for any type of "weakness," or "softness"  in these neighborhoods. Homophobia is also rampant--hence, the little boy calling the security guard "gay." To be gay is to be considered weak.

 

People who work for a living and have to answer to The Man are viewed as weak, and thus they make soft and easy targets for aggressive behavior.  

Brenda55 19551 pts moderator

JamilaDU2Toni_M

 

"People who work for a living and have to answer to The Man are viewed as weak, and thus they make soft and easy targets for aggressive behavior."

 

Pretty twisted and an example of just how divorced Blackistan is from the mainstream.

 

Guess the inhabitants need to get out more. You are permitted to defend your self you know which is why the guard had the tazor. He was well within his rights to use it. Guess if enough folk get tagged like that they will figure it out and keep their BS in the hood. 

 

tracyreneejones 3589 pts

 Brenda55  Jamila  DU2  Toni_M HA. The Mall has the money to pay for the guards that are permitted to carry/or off duty cops. This behavior is to be kept in the hood where a beat down may be the worse that can happen from the African/Jamaican guy sitting on top of the ladder in the front of the store and the women and kids would have outnumbered the guard had it been a hand to hand. And I bet good money the kids would have jumped in! LOL...but not really LOL..

Sunshine789 719 pts

I almost forgot about this! Go see the Interrupters - you can get it on Netflix. If you have not seen this film - you have to! It addresses an effective way to fix exactly what we are talking about. It is going on in Chicago right now - very innovative and cutting-edge. Former gang members are teaching kids conflict resolution skills in real-time.

 

http://interrupters.kartemquin.com/

keimiasmoon 1035 pts

 Sunshine789 I've seen that documentary. It was very powerful!

Sunshine789 719 pts

 keimiasmoon I think they are doing what really needs to be done - providing critical thinking and conflict resolution skills to people that have none. They jump into a middle of a fight and just say "Wait a minute - take a breather and THINK." And it works.

 

Now, if only they could jump in the middle of some of these late-night hook-ups and pass out condoms - LOL!!!

Lex_C 159 pts

 Sunshine789  keimiasmoon 

 

I've had to do this before at my previous job as a waitress. These two young ladies were about to fight, one of them being pregnant and the other I was carpooling home. I had to take care of a very escalating situation between these two co-workers. I pretty much got in the middle and was the voice of reason in a situation I saw go completely animalistically emotional. When I think of this and how I had to repeat to them, " you guys don't want to do this, you do not want the cops to show , you guys want to go home, we all just want to go home"  and telling the girl I would not take her home if she did anything stupid. It eventually ended with me driving home with an emotionally distraught woman babbling about how she felt she had to defend herself, and her thanks to me being able to avoid a much worse fate. That pregnant girl should be thanking me too, she knows she shouldn't be fighting in her condition. I have seen this first hand and well... I don't know how I manage to cut these situations up and get people to calm down, but I can say I have learned very much about the basic primal nature of human behavior

The Working Home Keeper 6634 pts

 keimiasmoon  Sunshine789 I watched this on PBS!  I remember being struck by how the one young lady looked so masculine in her dress and appearance (IIRC her parents were on drugs and/or in jail).  My husband said it was probably a means of protection for her as there were no protectors in her life.  And she was left to play that role for younger siblings.  I also remember her tearing up while getting her nails painted.  It was like a critical moment where she felt comfortable enough to show vulnerability.  Very enlightening - it was like a glimpse into a completely different world for me.   

 
ncatina 280 pts

 Sunshine789 Watching now.

Elegance 2096 pts

from  Toni, 

"I wonder if there were a ton of people saying, "You are a human being worthy of love, you don't have to be or live like this," if it would make a difference?...Do such persons act this way because they honestly believe it's expected of them?"

 

Been there, tried that...they don't listen and they will see that as criticizing their lifestyle. It's more effective to focus on those who see they have a problem and are willing to change or those who are unsure about their behaviour and choices. Those people can be swayed to change. 

 

"Stages of Change

 

Five stages of change have been conceptualized for a variety of problem behaviors. The five stages of change are precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and maintenance. Precontemplation is the stage at which there is no intention to change behavior in the foreseeable future. Many individuals in this stage are unaware or underaware of their problems. Contemplation is the stage in which people are aware that a problem exists and are seriously thinking about overcoming it but have not yet made a commitment to take action. Preparation is a stage that combines intention and behavioral criteria. Individuals in this stage are intending to take action in the next month and have unsuccessfully taken action in the past year. Action is the stage in which individuals modify their behavior, experiences, or environment in order to overcome their problems. Action involves the most overt behavioral changes and requires considerable commitment of time and energy. Maintenance is the stage in which people work to prevent relapse and consolidate the gains attained during action. For addictive behaviors this stage extends from six months to an indeterminate period past the initial action." 

http://www.uri.edu/research/cprc/TTM/StagesOfChange.htm

 

Elegance 2096 pts

Good post :)

 

Maybe we should just respect some women's choice to present themselves as macho women. They are making up their own definition of femininity that includes acting exactly like macho men. They want to fight and they want men to fight and hit them so we should applaud their empowerment and freedom of expression. We have no right to look down on other women because their definition of femininity is different from our own and we should support whatever choices they make. 

 

That was being sarcastic. Like you said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to act like men but when they are treated like men they cry foul. If anyone supports their being treated like men, everyone cries foul. I think that if men and women don't want to attract violence they shouldn't act violent. It won't prevent everything but we all know that if the woman at the store and at the bus had not acted macho then they would not have been hit. I think that there is such thing as provoking violence in some situations...oh no cue the domestic violence folks...

Elegance 2096 pts

"oh no cue the domestic violence folks..."

 

What I mean is I'm waiting for someone to come and say that the security guard and bus driver have anger management problems and they are entirely at fault for the violence escalation. Someone will say that "no one can cause someone else to be violent, they chose to do so" so the women are not to blame for their victimization. In this situation the men were clearly provoked, it's not as though the women were just being normal and polite and they got tasered  and punched for no reason. Domestic violence is bad okay!

Toni_M 18882 pts moderator

 Elegance The thing is, in some cases there are various forms of dysfunction at play. So it's sort of impossible to look at one scenario and blame one specific cause.

 

Do I think that feral women are very likely to be or have been harmed by DBR males? Yes. Does this potential for harm justify macho behaviors that can lead to the escalation of violence? No.

 

When a woman is harmed simply because someone wants to harm her, then the onus of responsibility must be placed on the attacker. The problem with this topic I think is that it is creating an acknowledgement for how one's own behavior can contribute to their being harmed, especially if they go out of their way to incite violence.

 

 

We are very familiar with violence against black women. It can be hard to swallow that there are black women who through their own violent behavior contribute to being a victim of violence. However, I think it becomes easier for me to digest when I consider the reality that as a vulnerable woman myself, when confronted with such persons, I would be more likely to be a victim of such women than any type of friend or comrade.

 

MySmile 4175 pts

 Elegance I feel like the bus driver situation and the security guard situation were different. The Cleveland bus driver UPPERCUTTED the girl and threw her off the bus. He was also threatening to bring his granddaughter up there to "whoop her ass", calling her names, cracking jokes on her, and arguing with her back and forth. The security guard did what he needed to do to protect himself and others. You could tell he was trying to stay calm. He seemed respectful and not like a violent person at all....plus he was a security guard! He was pretty much doing his job. I can't blame anyone for getting upset or wanting to fight back in these situations, but I think that uppercut was a little more than self defense....

 

This in no way, shape, or form excuses the behavior of the females, though. They definitely put themselves at risk by trying to act hard... I hope they learned their lessons, but I'm not so sure they did :-/ Sometimes it's better just to walk away. You never know who you're messing with out here, and by the time you find out, it may be too late...

EnJay 890 pts

 MySmile  Elegance 

 

Chris Tucker put it best when he responded this way to people who say there's never a reason for a man to hit a woman: "There's a reason to hit anybody - just. don't. do it."

 

Men are generally much physically stronger than women, and beating up on someone physically weaker just makes you a bully.

 

But if YOU are physically threatening a man (or even a woman or a child) in this manner, and you get knocked out, then I think you got what you asked for.  Unfortunately, the man usually gets in trouble anyway.

 

Don't kick lions.  Even "tamed" ones.

MySmile 4175 pts

 NicoleJB  True...it's best for women not to even go there..but under most circumstances, I do not believe men should hit women. I believe men should take the high road, even if a woman does hit them...He shouldn't hit them unless he absolutely has to in order to defend himself...in most cases, restraining the woman or pushing her will probably be enough. I know that realistically, all men are not going to be the bigger/ better person, so the best thing a woman can do is protect herself by not putting herself in harm's way or provoking situations. The women in these situations were not your average woman though and were walking around like they were invincible. I think in most cases, it's worse when men hit women because most men are physically stronger. You saw how hard that bus driver hit that girl...probably worse than anything she could have done to him, no matter how macho she was.

 

I often take the woman's side when it comes to these issues, but I'm starting to see a lot of cases where women were acting like savage beasts and left men with no other choice...

MySmile 4175 pts

 NicoleJB  I'm not saying that it's okay for women to hit men, though. I'm just saying there is more of a risk of a man hitting a woman. I also think it's  more screwed up (in most situations) because I believe men should be protectors of women instead of fighting with them or trying to hurt them. You can probably tell by now that I value gentlemen-like qualities, "chivalrous" behaviors, etc... Honestly, my opinion may not be logical, but it's just the way I see it...

EnJay 890 pts

 MySmile I feel you.  I do.  Ideally, thats how it should be.  Did you get a chance to read the police report and witness statements in that bus driver's case?  The woman was grabbing the steering wheel while he was driving, she took his phone and threw it off the bus.  He put her off the bus, she got back on, she spat in his face... the witnesses said she acted crazy on a regular basis.  Who's gonna put up with that mess on a regular basis?  Picture her coming to your job, messing with you like that.  No ma'am.

 

And she spat in his face.  That's enough right there.

 

She needed her clock cleaned.

 

I don't condone men being abusive to women, and it's better for the man to get out of that situation if at all possible, because he is going to come out as the "bad one" no matter what the woman did.  But as someone who has known men abused by women, I just don't think the one-size-fits-all "don't hit women" applies.

 

Everyone should keep their hands to themselves, but if one adult hits another adult, then they deserve whatever they get.  Maybe they will think twice before putting their hands on someone else.

EnJay 890 pts

 MySmile I know what you're saying - men generally are the aggressors and I am SO NOT DOWN with women-beating men.  Can't stand 'em. If a man hits a woman, and she can't get away, and cracks him over the head with a skillet - good for her.  

 

I just feel the same way where man-beating women are concerned. 

 

Know that I do respect your opinion!

DU2 2203 pts

 NicoleJB  MySmile THANK YOU NICOLE for laying this out. Especially breaking down the behavior of the woman in the bus driver incident. I will say it over and over ad nauseum, no woman deserves to get hit, but I get really tired of women who put the sole responsibility of self control on the men in these situations, they feel no matter what the woman does that the man should control himself because he is a guy  and bigger. So that means she can just do as she darn well pleases because she has a vagina? Would we feel this way if it were a cop these feral females were getting aggressive with? What you said here is EXACTLY what I was thinking,  "I don't condone men being abusive to women, and it's better for the man to get out of that situation if at all possible, because he is going to come out as the "bad one" no matter what the woman did.  But as someone who has known men abused by women, I just don't think the one-size-fits-all "don't hit women" applies"

EnJay 890 pts

 DU2  MySmile Here's a link to one of the sites that has the report.  http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/cleveland-bus-punch-report-687451

 

Now, what I DON'T understand is why the other man in the orange vest didn't assist.  Call somebody on the radio, ask someone on the bus to call the cops... something.

EnJay 890 pts

 DU2  MySmile Yes - the onus for self-control is on all adults, regardless of genitalia.  If I can't be responsible enough to control myself, I don't really think I have the right to demand that of someone else.  Hopefully SOMEBODY in a bad situation will have the presence of mind to keep a situation from escalating when possible, but think about it - if someone is acting like that, their next move could be to pull out a weapon and kill or seriously injure you.  What do you want to be? If you're acting a fool and it's me or you, I choose me.

Allylaura 36 pts

 NicoleJB  MySmile I don't care what anyone says, that uppercut was unnecessary. Why couldn't had just picked her up and throw her off the bus?

EnJay 890 pts

@Allylaura @MySmile He did. She got back on. Why are we blaming the victim here?

Allylaura 36 pts

 NicoleJB  Everyone has the right to defend themselves. But at the end of the day the uppercut was unnecessary. Getting hit on the chin that hard can knock someone out cold as well as other serious injuries. He could has kicked her pushed, and etc but that uppercut seemed so over the top and beyond self defense. In these situations nobody comes out the winner ( trust me I know) but why go make it worse?

EnJay 890 pts

 Allylaura I think we can just agree to disagree on this one.  She was doing everything she could to provoke that man.  Everything. Why should he worry about whether or not she gets knocked out if she isn't?  Isn't his obligation to go home alive to his family at the end of his shift?

 

If he had danced the funky chicken over her after the uppercut, I still wouldn't have been mad at him.  SHE was way wrong, she started it, she continued it, he tried to shut it down, she continued it some more, and he put an end to it.

 

If she wanted special treatment for being a woman, she should have remembered she was a woman before she started acting a fool.

Allylaura 36 pts

 NicoleJB The women is clearly acting inappropriately, but in the end of the day the rest is on the bus driver. The best thing about being provoked is you can decide whether or not to react. In my experience anytime a passenger is acting out, whether physically or verbally you stop the bus period, just in case. Why he choose to keep driving while engaging that women I don't know.

 

The uppercut is truly the point when the situation/altercation changed. He could have easily thrown her off the bus and closed the doors.

 

The worst thing you can do is stoop to their level and escalate it by engaging in verbal taunts, to someone passing by (who may have not heard the entire thing) you'll seem just as wrong. Why sink down to their level when you can avoid it?

EnJay 890 pts

 Allylaura  NicoleJB 

 

Perhaps you have the patience of Jesus, and would walk away if someone spat in your face.  I don't, and I don't want it.  I don't fly off the handle, nor do I advocate that anyone be so spring-loaded that any slight will send them off the rails.

 

This woman didn't just slight or verbally taunt him.  She put hands on him.  Still he didn't put hands on her.  He took it for longer than he needed to, in my opinion.  And neither of us were actually on the bus, so I don't know why he couldn't close the door and drive away or something like that.  Given what I DID see, I'm going to rule in his favor and say there must have been a reason why he couldn't.  Then she spat. in. his. face.

 

Pure and simple, she got what she came for, plus some.  Damn what passers-by thought.  People think what they want anyway.

 

You and I just disagree.

 

 

Allylaura 36 pts

 NicoleJB I would really call it the patience of Jesus, I just have better self control and judgment. I know what I'm capable of when I'm angry and I wouldn't use that on someone smaller than me. It doesn't look or feel right.

 

Yea you and I will just have to disagree.

Toni_M 18882 pts moderator

Elegance

 "Like you said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to act like men but when they are treated like men they cry foul. "

 

Actually machoism goes deeper than that.

 

It's a concept that's dangerous for men, and sensible men do not abide by it. Why? Because it GETS THEM KILLED.

 

Today, law-abiding men do not need to go around behaving like this. It's understood that there are undesirable consequences for such behaviors.

 

The problem is, there is a naive assumption that these consequences will universally suspend themselves for black women who act on them.

 

This is simply not the case, especially when acting them out in places where we already understand that black women's lives are of little worth.

 

 

It's not about gender roles and sexuality per se, so much as a fundamental lack of appreciation for how this type of extreme is dangerous period, and there are no exceptions to be made for women who act them out.

 

Lex_C 159 pts

I have been lurking for a while now and feel compelled to post.  Having been keeping up with the list of post that lead up to this post. I have to congratulate Toni for her truthful yet humanistic approach on this issue, especially since I was questioning her previous comments and posts due to what I saw as an overbearing aggression on her stance. 

 

At first glance is its disengaging because this post seems to lack empathy for these Macho Little Girl, or anyone trapped in these poor areas. I am fully aware of the popular mantra on here of living your life successfully without the guilt of those who just want to bring you down, and have subscribe to that since I was a young teen. So the idea that I should go down into the trenches and just help people who never asked for it is beyond my calling in life, but it doesn't mean I am so self absorbed to not care. Which is why I think this topic is so popular, because despite our desire to live our own successful lives, we do care that this kind of stuff happens. That care is empathy enough alone.

 

I completely agree on the obvious premise of the post. Machoism in black women and girls is not healthy behavior. I don't even think that point needs to be debated. I suppose what will be put more into question is what we decide to do about that which is why I like this

 

"How does this behavior become corrected?

 

I honestly don’t know. I think if I person wants to change they can. Of course that requires they know there’s something fundamentally wrong with their behavior. Why would you change aspects of yourself that you don’t consider problematic?"

 

The truth is we don't know, I know personally that growing up I was headed down this path as a child of the aggressive wild child little girl, (my whole life story is just a book)  and while I was that way I wasn't beyond change, but when I got older seen others who were. I personally think it takes the closer people in peoples lives to foster a sense of care to foster vulnerability so people could look beyond fighting as the only way to survive, but I still even feel that is a very simple answer to a complicated issue.