What a Mitt Romney Presidency Would Be Like for Single Parents (Some Will Get the Shock of Their Lives)

What a Mitt Romney Presidency Would Be Like for Single Parents (Some Will Get the Shock of Their Lives)

If Mitt Romney wins the election, he will almost surely address the out-of-wedlock rate and single parenthood through policy, incentives and disincentives.

Author : Christelyn Karazin

Author's Website | Articles from

Barack Obama was the clear winner in last night’s debate, therefore proving my theory that someone must have drugged him during the first abysmal show last month. Yesterday when the issue of gun control was brought up, Mitt Romney went on a tangent. He said something to this effect: of course he’ll never do anything to imperil the Second Amendment, but agreed that guns should be taken from the hands of criminals. But what struck me was that he used that subject for an awkward segue to talk about the rising out-of-wedlock rate and how children without two parent households are contributing to gun violence. While his comment had a very loose link to gun control, he’s right about one thing. Studies consistently show that kids from fatherless homes are more likely to engage in violent crime.

What he did right there folks, gives a hint as to what will come if he becomes president. You can forget about all the social programs that all the liberal bleeding hearts advocate to “save the children” and to help the impoverished. He and his administration won’t be buying it. I would bet my firstborn (a child I had when I was unmarried) that the Romney Administration will throw their dollars and support towards programs that support marriage. There will be sweeping campaigns to encourage the benefits of marriage, namely the idea that you’ll be a lot less poor if you have another working parent in your household and therefore won’t ever need welfare (that was sarcasm).

Why Does Romney Care?

So why all the attention to single parents all of a sudden? I can guarantee you it’s not because the black community has an 80% out of wedlock rate for first children born to black women. If they cared, something would have been done eons ago. But let’s be frank…white folks care for their own. And now that the OOW rate is affecting the white community, policy makers, sociologists, legislators and the like are bumping into each other and wringing their hands about how to find a solution. If you think this isn’t so, then perhaps you might want to pick up a copy of Coming Apart: The State of White America 1960-2010 by Charles Murray, the infamous co-author of The Bell Curve. In Coming Apart:

Murray meticulously chronicles and measures the emergence of two wholly distinct classes: a new upper class, first identified in The Bell Curve as “the cognitive elite,” and a new “lower class,” which he is too polite to give a name. And he vividly localizes his argument by imagining two emblematic communities: Belmont, where everyone has at least one college degree, and Fishtown, where no one has any. (Read: Tonyville and Trashtown.)

The key point is that the four great social trends of the past half-century–the decline of marriage, of the work ethic, of respect for the law and of religious observance–have affected Fishtown much more than Belmont. As a consequence, the traditional bonds of civil society have atrophied in Fishtown. And that, Murray concludes, is why people there are so very unhappy–and dysfunctional.

If you’ve noticed an uptick in the rhetoric about single parenthood, the out of wedlock rate and how it relates to poverty, just know it’s not your imagination. Trust and believe there are folks working right now to bring forth policy to address the problem, and I for one don’t think that’s a bad thing. At this point only the truly delusional can argue that the policies over the last 40 years, along with a massive culture shift about how children should be raised has been successful. It hasn’t. And for the people who will come to this thread chomping at the bit to cry how their mother was a single parent and you “came out fine!!!” I want to give you a preemptive and symbolic cookie, pat you on the head, and remind you that we are not talking about the exceptions.

Two years ago me and a host of other No Wedding No Womb! participants predicted that the days of all these social programs and government handouts were numbered. With a deficit deeper than all the oceans on Earth and spending already through the roof, don’t expect the government to hand over freebies like Lyndon Johnson did, because some would argue he started this whole mess in the first place (Murray does). The chickens are coming home to roost and the hens are going to have to figure out a way to manage all those, uh…cocks.

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MadamCJCPA 1125 pts

Am I the only person that is concerned about the numerous reports of employees being intimidated (i.e. "advised") into voting for Mitt Romney by their various employers under the guise of their jobs being in "jeopardy" under a second President Obama term?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/14/arthur-allen-romney-email_n_1963965.html

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/david-siegel-email_n_1951801.html

 

I love how the 1% pretends that if President Obama wins, then the little people (those of us in the 99%) will have "no one to blame" for our being laid-off but ourselves.

 

 

tracyreneejones 3514 pts

Killing a child is not wrong.......*carry on* 

Brenda55 19278 pts moderator

The First Lady of the United States tells it like it is. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yxIZLythTGo#!

Law Wanxi 5780 pts

Meh, no kids then, now or ever. Period. Don't care about single parenthood. 

 

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out whether I'm a 'maker' or a 'taker'. On the 'maker' side, I own a couple of small businesses [1 point], I've created jobs in the USA [1 point], India [500 points] and the Hong Kong SAR of the People's Republic of China [25,000 points, plus 'blood brother' status with Mitt!]. 

 

On the 'taker' side, a miniscule portion of my yearly income comes from the US Naval Reserve and I'm eligible for Veteran's Benefits [taker, taker, taker, taker, taker, taker, taker and CHUMP for serving, as Mitt sucked down Brioche in France on a 'divinity' deferment while 'future-takers' served in Vietnam.] 

 

All in all, I think that makes me a 'taker'. Well, that also makes Karla a taker [military pension], so I'm in fine company.

 

I'm in the Pacific time zone; it's not like my presidential vote actually counts anyway, LOL.

 

 

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

 Law Wanxi 

Pacific time zone and a solidly Democratic state so we are doubly irrelevant.  There are only a few battleground states where presidential votes really count.

Law Wanxi 5780 pts

 Brice Cameron 

If you ain't Ohio, you aint sh-t. 

dasdbobb 1379 pts

 Law Wanxi  Brice Cameron

 i'm in ohio. 

 

Brenda55 19278 pts moderator

 Law Wanxi 

Wanxi.  You're a maker.  Not like the ones in Dune however.

Hey do trust fund babies and their spouses count as makers of are they takers.? I cannot figure my status until I get  an answer to that question. 

Law Wanxi 5780 pts

 Brenda55 

Trust fund babies are ALWAYS 'makers'. Always. It's the nature of the beast.

 

I've decided I'm a taker because Romney pretty much put the entire military, including the Coast Guard, in the Taker Camp. The Privileged Pussy was a Draft Dodger so despite what blather he spews now, he is of the generation and social class that hated the military and thought anyone who went was a Chump. 

 

Embed my butt with the USMC on active, as it is in the reserve. I'd rather be a taker with that band of brothers than be a maker with a bunch of rich guys' sons. 

 

Plus, I didn't fire any Americans to create the two jobs in India and the part of a job in HK. That's a requirement for 'full member maker' status. It has to do with the erectile-dysfunction curative effects of skewering an honest working person in the American Middle Class. I think sometimes that's the only way the CEO class can get it up, by causing misery in the USA. Not. A. Maker.

Brenda55 19278 pts moderator

 Law Wanxi Gulp......well since you put it that way I guess I should not own that moniker either.  Rather of sticky business since that is where our income comes from.  Hummmm what to do what to do..........

DWB 7273 pts

 Law Wanxi Used to be in the Buckeye state, alas I moved to a state that that although it voted for Berry last time, it will return to its senses and reject such foolishness. I couldn't play spoiler if I wanted to.

 

Since you actually performed a service to your fellow man by giving up part of your freedom to serve, military benefits could not be considered welfare, thus you are NOT a taker in this case.

 

The jobs that Chinese workers now do in factories do not belong to Americans, but to those who are willing to do them at a wage offered (too large by American standards, but BETTER than the average serf in China, thus the reason the market moved the jobs there.) Fear not, eventually Chinese communists will realize that crap don't work like most other people have and they'll unionize, get greedy, fat and lazy and lose the jobs to those "damn" Africans.

 

 

DWB 7273 pts

 Law Wanxi Correction, too SMALL for Americans, but a step up for your average poor Chinese citizen (sorry!)

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

So he wants to de-fund planned parenthood, reduce access to birth control and outlaw abortion.  How exactly is this going to result in less out of wedlock children?

Brenda55 19278 pts moderator

 Brice Cameron He is planning to spring for pamphlets instructing women on how to keep their knees together. I think they are coming from Pueblo Co.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 Brenda55  Brice Cameron Don't forget the aspirin!!!

DWB 7273 pts

 Brice Cameron planned parenthood is a private organization that likes to brag (like PBS) that they receive very little tax money so they won't miss it. How does Mittens plan to reduce access to birth control?

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

 DWB 

No matter how much government funding planned parenthood receives, cutting it is not a smart strategy if you want to reduce out of wedlock births.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I would much rather the government fund birth control and family planning than pay much more to feed and house unwanted children.  As far as reducing access to birth control, cutting funding to planned parenthood is one way that he wants to do that.  Another is by letting employers choose if they will allow their healthcare plan to pay for contraceptives.

DWB 7273 pts

 Brice Cameron Allowing employers the option to cover BC if they so choose is NOT equal to restricting access to it. And as a condom costs a couple bucks and a 30 day supply of BC pills is available for under 30 bucks, the real issue is NOT access. There is no free lunch (if I ran a health plan, they would be covered, but I don't).

 

PP lobbies for abortion so taking money from me and giving it to them is immoral.

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

 DWB 

If something is more expensive or not covered, access is restricted.  I agree that birth control is cheap and maybe it won't make much difference to most people, but the contradiction remains.  Romney says he is anti single parent, but is not supportive of things that reduce this condition.

 

Some people think war is immoral.  That doesn't mean they don't have to pay their share of the military budget.  You don't get to pick and choose which government programs you pay for.  You only get to vote for the candidate you think will support the programs you want and cut the ones you don't

Veron 1387 pts

 DWB  Brice Cameron "a 30 day supply of BC pills is available for under 30 bucks"...

 

at Planned Parenthood.

DWB 7273 pts

 Brice Cameron No, passing a law limiting the sale and purchase of or outright banning of contraceptives is restricting. If I choose to buy that expensive TV, or that McDonalds lunch instead of buying BC, I have no one to blame but myself. Killing the child I risked making because I wanted a Big Mac more...is the total abrogation of personal responsibility.

 

Since you agree that it is immoral to force someone to participate (even monetarily) in something they morally oppose, shouldn't we try to respect our fellow man and greatly limit when this happens? But, as much as I despise war, at least a military is recognized by the Constitution, but birth control (and abortion) is not.

DWB 7273 pts

 Veron  Brice Cameron Um, no. Try Walmart or Target. Nice try...

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

 DWB 

The way we distribute resources in this capitalist society is by pricing.  If something costs more than I can afford, I am restricted from buying it.  I think that is the best way to distribute limited resources that has yet been devised.  This is an argument of semantics, so I don't think it is that important.  I understand where you are coming from.

 

I think that paying for peoples contraception is a good investment.  I agree that people should pay for that before they buy other things.  But I am not concerned about people who are making good choices.  I especially want birth control to be available for people who make bad choices.  I just think it is cheaper and better for society to cover the cost of birth control for them.

 

"If I choose to buy that expensive TV, or that McDonalds lunch instead of buying BC, I have no one to blame but myself. Killing the child I risked making because I wanted a Big Mac more...is the total abrogation of personal responsibility."

 

I agree with you, but it doesn't matter.  People are going to make wrong decisions.  No matter whose fault it is, we as a society have to deal with the results.

 

"Since you agree that it is immoral to force someone to participate (even monetarily) in something they morally oppose, shouldn't we try to respect our fellow man and greatly limit when this happens?"

 

No, my point was that we are all forced to pay for government programs that we disagree with and that is the only way that the system works.

 

I am not opposed to war, abortion or the death penalty.  I am pretty much anti-life across the board.  At least I am consistent.

 

DWB 7273 pts

 Brice Cameron We can agree to disagree, but no, we all have limited resources and have to choose what we spend them on. Any restriction a person places on themselves are their business, not mine.

But, that is NOT what the left is talking about, they are crying discrimination and repression to hide the fact that they either want others to pay for stuff they REALLY, REALLY want or are so wedded to their ideology they are willing to run roughshod over their fellow man to get what they want.

 

Though I am a bit of a misanthrope myself, I endeavor to protect INNOCENT life in every way that I can.

DWB 7273 pts

 Brice Cameron And in that way, I am quite consistent myself.

 

Have you ever noticed how people who are pro-abortion oppose the death penalty? :-)

 

For the record: I am anti-abortion, support the death penalty but worry that it is misapplied and support restrictions and am anti-war but realize that since so many other are not, will support war when I believe that there is no other choice, though personally I would rather not kill anyone myself and refused to carry a weapon when I went to war (never saw battle...)

heyimPearlilikefries 2091 pts

 DWB  I have my personal views on abortion and birth control but in no way do I feel that it should be illegal. I DO feel that they should pay for their own abortions and birth controls. Unless there is a serious detriment to your health and you need an abortion, or in cases of rape and incest, maybe health care should pay for that, but otherwise pay for it your own goddamn self. That's all it is... why it so difficult? Nobody making you go out and be irresponsible. You have BC, you're skipping a couple of day NOT being responsible and then you get pregnant and want somebody to pay for you're mistake. Hells no. I wouldn't do that ever. 

 

And does this mean that people could possibly or may have to pay taxes for killing babies? Or no? Because if so that's some cold bullsh*t. 

 

DWB 7273 pts

 TheZitaZitomihr As for me, I'm an abolitionist. It never fails to amaze me that even though abortion is quite legal and easy to get (1.3 million per year) that is still not good enough for the other side. The past has other examples of this as well. Slavery in the south was quite protected but the Democrat party still wasn't satisfied, passing fugitive slave laws requiring people who did not support slavery to participate by requiring them to act as slave catcher and return escaped slaves.

 

The more things change...

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

 DWB 

"Have you ever noticed how people who are pro-abortion oppose the death penalty? :-)"

 

Yes.  I have also noticed that many people who are anti-abortion oppose any aid to mother and child after it is born.  They only care for the child up until birth  After that, they couldn't care less.  Then when the child predictably turns bad, they are fine with paying to house him or her in prison.

DWB 7273 pts

 Brice Cameron Millions of Americans donating to charity, raising grand-kids as their own, adopting and foster care, Big Brothers/Sister and various and myriad mentoring programs belie that. As a country we spend over a trillion dollars on various welfare programs.

 

There are NO easy answers once that child is conceived (one of the reason I support birth control and am glad that it is so cheap and easy to obtain.) Killing a child is ALWAYS wrong.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 Veron  DWB  Brice Cameron Which isn't really cheap either...

 

Female contraception is "cheaper" and covered by insurance policies because progressives and women's advocacy groups fought extremely hard for including it in coverage.  Guess who opposed it?  The usual conservative suspects who believe that allowing women to control when and where they have children is immoral.  Conservative elements have ALWAYS wanted to have control over women's bodies and limit their free agency.  But pass the Viagra and Androl gel out like Halloween candy!!!

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque  Veron  Brice Cameron Catholics and a few others oppose contraception on religious grounds and are a minority view among conservatives, not to mention the majority of Americans. I have no opinion on Viagra and such other than to note that it sure makes certain women awfully upset ... ummmm?????

 

The fact that they are so cheap and covered by most plans speaks well of the free market and it's ability to give customers (in this case feminists) what they want, no?

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB  How do you define "easy?" Anti-choice advocates and conservative politicians who oppose abortion and even birth control have steadily been passing laws to restrict abortion, even in cases when it is a medical necessity to save the life of the mother.  Mothers needing to travel hundreds of miles to get a D&C because their local doctors are too afraid that their clinic will be branded an "abortion clinic" and bombed by a lunatic is not "easy."  I agree that access to reproductive services is easy in some states and in some locations, but it is getting harder, more expensive and likely to become more dangerous as a result.

 

I find the comparison to slavery and the fugitive slave laws to be extremely distasteful.  Who has been put in jail because they refused to have an abortion?  Who has been chased out of their town, maimed or killed for sheltering pro-life women?  Who has had pregnant family members taken away and tricked into having abortions?  People harboring fugitive slaves put themselves in real peril.  People who took anti-slavery stances paid extreme social costs in some areas of the country, and free people were placed in bondage when authorities refused to protect the rights of free Blacks when they were captured (either mistakenly or purposefully) by bounty hunters.  If anything, the terrorist tactics and legislative push to criminalize abortion and other reproductive choices are more akin forcing one's own beliefs onto an entire state or nation.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB  Veron  Brice Cameron No, it doesn't speak to the free market at all.  If so, the free market decided decades ago that female birth control was a-okay.  The opposition, then and now, is rooted in statist and anti-capitalist notions of what is morally acceptable to a few.

 

I am personally not upset about coverage offered to support men's health concerns. I don't appreciate the imbalance though.  I can see very clearly that it harkens back to the need for conservative elements to retain control over reproduction and family planning, when these decisions should be made by individuals.

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque Glad to see that you admit that you and many others see abortion as just another form of birth control instead of something to be "safe, legal and rare."

 

The abortion rates have remained fairly steady (1.3 million per year) since 1973. I also grin with some irony to hear you complain about regulation of abortion as many consumers of cigarettes, alcohol, guns and so many other things have been feeling your pain for a long time.

 

As abortion is WORSE than slavery, your moral qualms are something that you will have to deal with. As mankind once declared a class of their fellow man as nothing more than cattle, we have declared the most innocent and helpless among us as mere property, no more worthy of consideration than an appendix. Sadly, there can be no underground railroad in this case, the slaughter will continue...

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque  Veron  Brice Cameron The market (you know, us) did indeed decide they were OK and I stand in opposition with you to anyone who would restrict access to birth control (with the stipulation that I cannot condone the taking of an innocent human life.)

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB "Glad to see that you admit that you and many others see abortion as just another form of birth control instead of something to be "safe, legal and rare."

 

You don't actually know what I believe, with all due respect.  A much more respectful and civil way of ascertaining my beliefs would have been to ASK rather than assume.  

 

I do not see abortion as a form of contraception.  It is, in a technical sense, a form of birth control, as is forced sterilization, but to contend in some flippant way that a person who is pro-choice sees abortion as a form of birth control without seeing fit to confirm it first is a tactic that frankly should be beneath anyone in a respectful dialogue.

 

"The abortion rates have remained fairly steady (1.3 million per year) since 1973. I also grin with some irony to hear you complain about regulation of abortion as many consumers of cigarettes, alcohol, guns and so many other things have been feeling your pain for a long time."

 

Again, quite useful to ask rather than assume a person's position before jumping into a non-sequitor.

 

If abortion is nothing more than a personal choice, like smoking, drinking, owning a gun, etc., why would anyone ever argue against it on moral grounds in 2012?  Frankly I'm shocked that a pro-life person would ever equate choosing abortion to choosing to smoke.  The protection of innocent life is very much at the crux of restricting smoking, drinking, etc. so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt based on your stated opinion, but seriously?  

 

"As abortion is WORSE than slavery, your moral qualms are something that you will have to deal with. As mankind once declared a class of their fellow man as nothing more than cattle, we have declared the most innocent and helpless among us as mere property, no more worthy of consideration than an appendix. Sadly, there can be no underground railroad in this case, the slaughter will continue..."

 

Medically I find this comparison to be extremely problematic. It's like apples and spaceships, but I guess it gets a person's attention.  It's a gratuitous and frankly distasteful comparison IMO.  My "qualms" about comparing the fugitive slave law to legalizing abortion were clearly stated above and can be referenced again.  Your implication that I need to "deal with" unspecified nebulous qualms is really interesting.  What is that about in your mind?  

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque I reread you previous and realize you are correct, I read into your response the abortion/birth control link when looking back it wasn't even implied so for that I apologize.

 

Abortion is force against one human being against another, drinking, etc... are not. People do unsafe and dumb things all the time and it is not our job to save them from themselves, especially realizing that we have no right to interfere with the personal decisions of others.

 

Pro-abortion people often claim that abortion involves nothing more than a "clump of cells" no more worthy of protection than an appendix, those are their words, not mine.

 

One day I hope that you will see the validity of the abortion/slavery comparison, know that is my true heartfelt belief (I am hardly the only one who has noted the eerie comparisons between the pro-slavery and pro-abortion arguments) but until you do, as long as abortion remains legal, could you please keep me out of it? I do not wish to pay for what I believe is the killing of an innocent human being.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB It's okay and I accept your apology.  I understand that this issue hits core values/beliefs for you and I appreciate that we can have a civil exchange about it nevertheless.

 

My own knowledge, values and beliefs lead me to a different conclusion on the issue of abortion. I am very uncomfortable imposing those values/beliefs on others that would remove their ability to decide for themselves.  The legitimate comparison to slavery abolitionism is that, for a person who believes abortion is murder of an innocent, to allow it to occur anywhere is unconscionable and degrades the overall morality of a nation.  I get that.

 

Unlike advocating for the abolition of slavery, assigning the rights of a fully developed baby that has been delivered of its mother to a life in development in the womb is just not the same kind of moral dilemma to resolve.  On multiple levels. Not in 2012, unless one really advocates that society be regulated according to Biblical law and principles.  This is why, ironically, those who oppose contraception and abortion in any circumstance have a moral advantage to anyone who allows exceptions. They are guided by the Bible, full stop, and science, ethics and moral dilemmas be damned.  One cannot advocate for a life based on Biblical principles without running squarely into certain realities of modern life, which has advanced scientifically and socially in the last 2,000 years. That's why this issue is so hard to resolve for reasonable people who realize that certain concessions to medical realities and notions of fairness, freedom, and privacy have to be made. 

 

I think extraordinary measures have been taken to account for the position of pro-life people in the law, moreso than any other constituency that favors the preservation of human life at any stage of development. These measures speak to the recognition that EVERYONE has about the unique challenges that come with deciding where in the reproductive process a woman's personal rights end and rights should be assigned to the life in development.  At some point, these extreme measures can and have infringed upon the rights of fully developed women, and that is simply not okay. At no time, except during slavery and when the U.S. dabbled in eugenics, have free people been forced to end lives in development against their will.  That, to me, is the problem with a pro-life stance that unequivocably equates a life in development in the womb with that of a baby that has been born.  Taking this stance means that one is prepared to see women as "hosts" whose primary purpose must be to give birth after becoming pregnant.  This is as morally problematic as aborting a fetus.  There is no high ground to stand on in either case without ceding it elsewhere.

 

You don't have a right to demand that your tax dollars be used in a certain way.  You do have a right to advocate that the government spend them in a way that you are more comfortable with, and to elect representatives who share your beliefs. Then again, so do I.  And so we all find ourselves exactly where we are, in a messy negotiation to find solutions that work for most people.

Brice Cameron 2063 pts

 DWB  Statuesque 

A zygote is just one cell.  It will grow into a human given time and sustenance, but I would say that a zygote is closer to a sperm or an egg than it is to a baby and I waste my sperm all of the time and don't feel any moral qualms about it.  During pregnancy, this group of cells gradually becomes more a baby and less a group of cells.  I think this happens before birth, but I don't think there is a single point at which the transformation occurs.  I think that picking birth as the cutoff point is just as arbitrary as picking one year after birth.  Few would agree to that.

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque I also thank you for accepting my heartfelt apology and having a fairly respectful debate on an highly controversial subject.

 

My views on abortion are not based upon my Christianity, rather they are moral and scientific. (Abortion is not mentioned in the Bible, harm to a fetus is as is murder of course.) The chief rights of ALL human beings are life, liberty and property and all other rights descend from these. The question entirely revolves around is the baby a person or not. Few would argue that a baby just outside the womb is not a person worthy of protection (well, Obama would in some cases, but still) yet just a few seconds earlier it was not?

 

So, when is it a person? Until science can give us an indisputable conclusion, the only ethical position is to protect life (the mother's life is completely equal to that of the child.) Since only women get pregnant, your beef about the unfairness of the situation seems to be with God and/or evolution...I would never make another human being procreate against their will nor would I stop them, which is why I support birth control and encourage its use as well as advising people to think before they hop in the sack.

 

Some folks (a majority???) quite disagreed with the proposition that black Africans were worthy enough to be called human person equal with themselves and had plenty of scientists agreeing with them.

 

Everybody must pay taxes and thus have their money go to do things that they believe are immoral. It is therefore of highest importance that we limit the intrusion against our personal beliefs as often as we can or we all becomes slaves who live to fund our own oppression.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB Abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible because a right to life in those societies was granted at birth, and even then the father or prevailing religious/governmental authority had the ultimate right to decide which people under their authority lived or died.  The topic didn't even register as important to write down.  This notion of individual rights is relatively new because the needs of the community overall or the privileges of the governing authority have traditionally been more important.  I suppose it is also relatively ancient in that some so-called primitive human societies had a much fairer sense of individual rights than we do at times today. Go figure.

 

As Brice mentioned in another post, the ascription of personhood is somewhat arbitrary but has tended to land on the side of the "just born." The concept of when "a soul" exists, or when pain is felt, or when the life is viable outside of the womb have all been used to define personhood. So it is not exactly fair to say that most people today see a material difference between a late term fetus that can survive without extraordinary intervention and a newborn.

 

Science is not going to answer the question "what is a person?"  The definition comes from a society's definition and what factors will be used to determine the answer if it is in question.  Is a fetus a person when neurons are mature enough to cause pain?  Is an unfertilized egg or sperm a person because it has the potential to become a life?  Science can say "yes, a fetus feels pain at X stage in development" but it can't decide whether feeling pain should be a condition of personhood. Science can say "eggs and sperm will only develop into a human life when combined" but there's a religious tradition that contradicts this truth and holds strong sway over public policy.  That's the job of philosophy, and usually religious philosophy to answer and for government to legislate and enforce.

 

This is, again, why the comparison to slavery or to anti-African racism isn't a fair one.  Science has answered the question of whether Africans are human and whether there is one or human race or multiple races, in case some people still had doubts. Yet societies are still grappling with the implications of this knowledge, and how it should or should not change their morals, values and beliefs.

 

The notion of "intrusion upon personal beliefs" is extremely important, which is why when honoring a person's personal beliefs require another person to to cede freedoms, we must proceed with caution in a free society.  Your personal beliefs about when life begins are intrusive in a way that the opposite view is not.  If a person believed it was her personal right to keep slaves, she may get hundreds to agree with her, and she place her opinion in historical context, but she cannot say that honoring her beliefs doesn't intrude on the rights of other free people. All she can say is that those of us who are anti-slavery offend her strong sensibilities.  That's the difference, and it is simply not a good enough reason.

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque I appreciate the debate and must say you're better at arguing your point when you avoid that "anti-choice, men imposing their reproductive choices on women" stuff...it's all kinda silly.

 

Wrapping it up, we obviously have a fundamental disagreement on the rights of man. I can no more believe that a child in early development is not a human being, a person any more than I believe that a seriously handicapped adult is somehow less worthy of protection than myself. This is as self evident as the fact that black Africans were persons, human beings and also worth of protection of their individual rights.

 

A woman has an unquestionable right to control of whether she gets pregnant, but once she does, two people with equal rights exist. A child has less freedom than I do because they are under the rule of their parents, but even this does not mean that they have NO rights.

 

PS: I would argue that the 10 Commandments are a fundamental declaration of individual rights, specifically as they protect life and property.

 

Have a nice day!

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB "Until science can give us an indisputable conclusion, the only ethical position is to protect life (the mother's life is completely equal to that of the child.)"

 

You can't square this circle.  Not with science, religion or philosophy. There is already an implicit definition of an life in incubation being equal to one fully developed.  As such, when the hard moral decisions need to be made, it seems that your stance is to say that preserving the life in incubation is what is more important.

 

"Since only women get pregnant, your beef about the unfairness of the situation seems to be with God and/or evolution..."

 

I don't have a beef with nature.  What creates unfairness about this issue is only a woman carries a child to term.  It's her body, no one else's.  The unfairness, I suppose, is that men help to create life but they don't have a biological part in bringing it into the world.

 

"I would never make another human being procreate against their will nor would I stop them, which is why I support birth control and encourage its use as well as advising people to think before they hop in the sack."

 

And what if they don't?  Or what if they thought "I want to have unprotected sex?" or "my birth control will work!" Then they must "suffer the consequences" and bear a child?  It sounds like you would insist that once a woman is pregnant she had better stay that way.  She's made her bed and must lie in it.  Pretty intrusive.  

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque But men do have a responsibility to support that child until it turns 18, even though after conception, he has NO say in whether that child lives or dies. Is it safe for me to assume that you support the proposition that the father has no say about what happens to that child unless the woman demands it?

 

My no position is no more intrusive than forbidding someone from robbing his neighbor after he made bad choices and is now broke. The bad consequenses flow naturally from the freedom to make choices.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB Likewise!  And since there's an eons-long tradition of trying to wrest reproductive control it unfortunately is what it is, and silly isn't it!

 

Have a good one.  :)

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB "Is it safe for me to assume that you support the proposition that the father has no say about what happens to that child unless the woman demands it?"

 

No, but I do believe that if I will not physically bear the brunt of either a surgical procedure or childbirth that my say in the matter isn't necessarily equal to the woman who has to go through it.  We both understand that biologically, this isn't a fair decision because women are the incubators.

 

Ideally, a couple would make the decision together, but the ultimate decision has to rest with the woman if you have to cut the baby in half (pardon the pun).

 

The man who has responsibility to provide for the child for 18 years has equal rights to decide what happens to it and how it is raised.  There's no debate about that. Similarly, a woman who has brought a child into the world can't just say "just kidding" and shirk her responsibility.  If they both seek and find a good home for an unwanted child, fine, but abandonment is not cool.

 

When you punish a robbery someone has taken property and committed a crime.  So we're back to criminalization of abortion, which I only agree with if someone blatantly uses it as a form of birth control. Personhood for a fetus brings living life as a woman into the realm of the ridiculous. Is a miscarriage murder, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter?  If I don't take my prenatal vitamin every day is that official neglect? If I have a candy bar or wear high heels am I guilty of child endangerment?   

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque How about if the man doesn't want to be a dad? He shouldn't be able to to demand an abortion, but how about letting him walk away without supporting the child, sort of a "man abortion?"

 

If a woman does coke during her pregnancy, she is at the very least subject to government intervention, possibily having the baby removed from her care so I'd say yes, there is already some responsibilities they have.

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB "How about if the man doesn't want to be a dad? He shouldn't be able to to demand an abortion, but how about letting him walk away without supporting the child, sort of a "man abortion?"

 

People here might rip me a new one for saying this, but I say if he isn't married to the mother let him go if he signs away all legal rights to the child. I think it would be fair to require him to pay for half of the costs of giving birth and support for two years, but after that he can go. Men who feel that strongly about not being parents are dangerous and can get so desperate they harm pregnant women or their child. If women can give up their unwanted children legally men should do it formally as well.

 

Doing coke is illegal though.  So is giving alcohol to minors, hence the fetal alcohol laws. Having a responsibility isn't the same as having full liability to take care of a person with full rights of citizenship that is incubating in your body (often before you are even aware it's happening).  That is a slippery slope.

 

I think science is going to come up with forms of contraception that will make these rules unnecessary eventually.  I just don't believe in forcing people to become parents.  It comes from a respect for the sanctity of life as well, just not at all costs.

DWB 7273 pts

 Statuesque WOW. You're at least consistant and trying to be fair. I admire that...much respect.

 

I don't want pregnancy cops and would only punish those who show blatant disregard (sadly, this can only be done after the damage, and the crime, is done.) I DO NOT want the government involved in something that is 99.9% of the time none of their business.

 

I also agree, science will figure a way, but until then... ;-)

Statuesque 1713 pts

 DWB LOL if you're going to wear the big-girl panties it should be every day, right?  Men have feelings and individual rights too.  I firmly believe men and women should be partners, not adversaries.

 

Yeah, until that happy day some people will continue to try write checks their asses can't cash and cause these problems.  Sigh.... :)