Hi Christelyn K.,
I hope all is well with you and the family. All is well with me. I really
thought of this question as I was watching the wedding nouveau blog. As I
watched it I realized that West Indian and African women are more open to
interracial marriage. Something which has even been mentioned on the blog
that, most of the black women white men date happen to be from this part of
the world. What seem to be driving this thinking that many black women
there have versus the black women which I heard on the interview you did on
the radio station have? I am from the Caribbean, 24 years old and I have
always thought white guys attractive. Whether from watching tv, it was
somethng different because at that time in Trinidad, where I am from,
white people were few. My perception of them was on tv and little in
person. Now that I live here, it has not changed I am attracted to guys my
complexion or white guys, hardly in between. I am anxious to know what you
think and others to. It is a conversation I really would like to know what
is their thinking across the coast to maybe inspire this side. Have a good
one.
Best,
“N”
Call me crazy, N, but I’ve noticed this too. I’ll let the others chime in of course, but my initial, (un) educated guess is that aside from South Africa, modern-day African women aren’t constantly bombarded with guilt about “slave master love” like American black women are. They are shackled (pun intended) with the worry of being made to feel like a traitor for loving a white person. Of course, Africa is not a country, but a continent, so results may vary.
What say all of you?
I’ve mentioned the same thing to a few friends of mine, and I happen to be originally from the Caribbean, so go figure. I like Chris’s point about not having the burden/baggage of guilt over “slave master love” or what the white man did the black women in slavery back then.
Thinking back, the first time I learned about slavery was after emigrating here with my family as a young girl. Even though I was 7 years old, it left quite an impression on me but not one of hatred for white people. I can also say that in both sides of my family I have cousins who have married interracially and I think its great!
I agree with Christelyn. My parents (both Nigerian) told us to look beyond ethnicity, and go with who loves you and treats you well, etc. I also went to a fairly integrated school (Well, the majority was overwhelmingly White, but it was more class than race division, in many cases.). We (family) are integrated, yet, know and embrace our roots. Many do feel it’s selling out; but, what do they know about your esteem and ego, esp. when your up on your history and aware and proud of your heritage that that actually brings to a/the relationship. You both are aware of your pheno/genotype, initially; however, once you’re in the relationship, like with talking with people you share an interest, you forget, and you’re more in tune with one another.
I do have to mention that Africans had Colonialism, which is comparable to slavery in the US. There is a misinterpretation that Africans, from Africa did not suffer the same plight as slaves in the States, when in fact, after taking a class in African History in college, you find there was even worse brutality in Africa and South American places, like Brazil. I think the one difference is that they are in their own continent, as opposed to Africans of different countries being thrown together in the US (and scattered around the world), without a shared language. Africans think the same thing as African Americans, regarding interethnic relationships, however. Believe.
@Modupe Florence Okpeku
You seem very nice and your perspective is noted but there is no comparable parallel between African,, South American, and African American history. To suggest there would be disingenuous to not just my history but yours. 41 ethnic groups speaking more than 18 languages landed in Brazil before they were dispersed as slaves among the poor white and indigenous populations. Then there were Africans who were slaves of the Spaniards in other parts of Latin America and they, like Brazil, still haven’t come to terms with the history of slavery yet so if you want to make a case for a nation’s social evolution past slavery and/or the concept of racism you’ll have to find another example and I’ll give you hint; not in Africa, South America, or North America. As far as American black women having a collective, negative perception of white men-that wasn’t a mainstay in my culture until the mid 20th century. Race relations were based on individual encounters and proportional reactions to racial terrorism, for blacks anyway. Black women and black men “married” whites without projections. That had more to do with them being women and men than black.
@AJ2011 @Modupe Florence Okpeku
I am not sure that slavery and colonialism can be compared. Colonialism in most African countries lasted for a period of not more than 60 years while slavery went on for hundreds of years.
@Joyce345 @AJ2011 @Modupe Florence Okpeku
I can compare because if you’ve read or taken a class on Colonialism, you would know the atrocities that were also inflicted on Africans. Dr. Ben, Francis Cress Welsing, Naim Akbar, and other scholars compared, and gave a much more detailed analysis. Research them. The are accredited, and they back my claim. Let us not forget how long it took for African countries to actually take there countries back as theirs. I may be mistaken, but the last African country to claim their statehood was in the late 1960s. That is a far cry from 60 years of slavery. One should also consider the repercussions there, i.e., Nigerians STILL wearing those damn British wigs, to this day, and many Western Africans proud that they speak French, because of their “masters”. There are just as many problems there, as there are here, just as well. One of the many and main problems with us, of the African Diaspora, is that many of us only know our own history, and not that of others, and we assert one’s pain over another’s, when it is equally devastating. This particular mention, dissected from the entire opinion I gave is another topic altogether.
However, maintain focus. The question was asked, “Why Are More West Indian and African Women Open to Interracial Marriage?†I gave my opinion, from a first generation Nigerian American’s perspective. I was born in the U.S., and for some reason, just because I am an African, many African Americans assume that I do not understand the history of the African American plight, when I live it. I am just as much in this struggle as anyone. Again, a question was raised, and from THAT perspective asked, I gave an answer which, can be taken or left; however, I didn’t post to debate over who suffered the most? That is counterproductive and off topic. Now, back to the original question, at hand.
And thank you Monique8. Your analysis was spot on.
@Modupe Florence Okpeku @AJ2011
Err, I still disagree. And I am speaking as someone who grew up in Africa. Slavery and colonialism are not comparable.
Perhaps the experiences of Black South Africans under colonialism AND apartheid may come close but that is about it.
My tribesmen bravely sustained an 11-year guerrilla war against the British Colonialists using mostly poisoned arrows against British gunfire. Those must have been some kickass warriors.
Yes there were atrocities committed during that time but to be honest, only a small portion of the total population in my country at that time actually experienced the struggle.
Slavery on the other hand was at one time in history a COMMON experience for blacks in America.
And slavery lasted hundreds of years, while colonialism lasted about 60 years.
@Joyce345 @Modupe Florence Okpeku @AJ2011
Errrr….Next, Joyce. As I said, I’m following this thread, based on the question initially posed, not this endless debate. I can discuss my people doing the same thing. AND? It’s off topic, and I wish I NEVER brought this discussion up on this site, b/c people have lost sight. Keep going, if you want to. I’m through, and I thought I made that clear?
Now, if you want to discuss the ACTUAL topic, I’m all eyes.
@Modupe Florence Okpeku
how on eartth can you compare colonialism with slavery. two things that are horrible but not equally as horrible.
@arlette81 @Modupe Florence Okpeku Let’s not get it twisted. I believe a comparison can be made – and not for the better: The white rulers found colonialism more cost-effective, as they only had to pay pittances as wages, and were no longer liable to feed, clothe or house those workers. But they still had the same mindset, prejudices and priviliges as in slavery. I’m not going down the route of saying one is worse than the other. Both were horrible.
@oekmama You’re making a comparison based on the motivation not the effect? You can’t build a premise no that, at least not one that could be accepted. In this case it doesn’t matter what you “believe”, the facts speak for themselves.
@AJ2011 @oekmama
I think a comparision between colonialisma and slavery can be made. has anyone read the history of the belgain congo? Does anyone remember the horros that Africans suffered in Rhodesia, which is modern day Zimbabwe? It is counter productive to get inot whose oppression was worse. That kins of politics is divisive. Africans on the continent suffered greatly under colonialism, physically, spritually and economically. True they still had there “home” geiographically, but they were certainly NOT running things for quite some time. The only country on the continent of Africa that was not colonised was Ethiopia. Think about that and what it took in militry might and force to make that happen. European powers did nto just come in and ask to rule African and the Africans siad yes, please . There are variations intechnique and practice, But the brutality existed. Please let’s not start downplaying one’s oppression over another’s that gets us no where.
@AJ2011 Agree with Monique (below). Yes, Slavery is an abomination, but I cannot and will not reduce the sufferings of Modupe’s kin and country(wo)men. We in the Caribbean had great sympathy and solidarity for the victims of colonialism, because after slavery was abolished, we were suffering it too.
Granted, this is something that we do not share with AAs. Just because it isn’t part of the AA History doesn’t mean it wasn’t brutal. Just because it ‘only’ lasted 60 years doesn’t mean it wasn’t unjust.
Did you know that just last year Germany acknowledged its genocidal decimation of large numbers of the Herero tribe? Thousands, gone.
@Monique8 The only thing missing from my commentary is ethnocentric bias, not objectivity. You made a comparison that wasn’t accurate by most standards and the charge of comparing brutality by nation for victim status is a shot cheap.
@oekmama You’re projecting. I haven’t given you enough commentary that would suggest that I hold one historical experience as a barometer for another to be measured. They aren’t comparable because they are not the same. There is no room for elaboration.
I have no problem going down this road if you’d like to engage, but any preexisting bias you hold against my culture and its projection will be taken for the prejudice it is. That goes for the both of you.
@AJ2011 Not quite sure what you’re really saying. I made no cheap shot and my comment was not ethnocentric, however, yours is though. Like I said before to argue that somehow the atoricites that AA suffered under enslavement in this country is the epitome of all suffereing and therefore cannot and should not be compred to any other people’s suffering including the suffering of African people is divisive and non-productive. I never said that enslavement here in the US was a cake-walk. My point is that holding that above and beuond everyone else’s is a non starter and indicaes it’s own bais agains those Black peolple in the African Diaspora who suffered under brutal systems of enslavement, which I’m sure you know existed throughout the the Americas and the Caribbean. Contrary to what you may assume I hold no “pre-existin bias: again AA culture. I am first generation american, I was born and raised here so I am well versed and knowledgeble about what AA endured during slavery.
I am also well versed and knowledgable about what Africans in aother parts of the world sufffered from at the hands of European colonial “masters”. Debating whose suffering is worse and declaring that AA’s suffering tops all others and is beyond comparison is ethnocentric, biased and envinces a lack of understanding of the global history of Black people. It makes people get unneccesarily defensive and hinders the free exchange of ideas, thoughts, and the possibility of seeing similarites in our differences. Finally your opinion that the comparision cannot be made is just your opinion. It is my opinion that a comparision can be made as both systems had its own share of brutality and cost Black people greatly.
@Monique8
” I made no cheap shot and my comment was not ethnocentric, however, yours is though.”
Prove it and this “It is counter productive to get inot whose oppression was worse.” is a cheap shot because nothing I wrote even resembles that considering that Latin America was the only reference to slavery made by geography, not the United States.
The rest of your post is a projection because I never compared one as a bigger atrocity over another. Colonialism in the African continent is independent of the Trans-Atlantic trade both in technology, commodities, and the social landscape for African ethnic groups. Even the nuanced direct/indirect colonial rule could be seen depending on the occupying nation. At the same time Latin America’s system of chattel slavery was completely different from the United States giving both a very different perspective on racial classification, status, and politics. The Caribbean has its own independent history with 4 European nations picking isolated island chains and making them extensions of their nations and in the end given independence on land that belongs to the indigenous. No comparison can be made here.
“Contrary to what you may assume I hold no “pre-existin bias: again AA culture.”
I wrote “any” preexisting bias meaning if they are there, not that they are in fact there. Sorry it came across that way but I’m always on the look out.
@Monique8 I’m going to quote myself; “..I haven’t given you enough commentary that would suggest that I hold one historical experience as a barometer for another to be measured.” So again if you trying to charge me with making AA history a standard for suffering under racism you’d be projecting. As far as the sharing of ideas and thoughts, you are more than welcome to type what you please, but you just like me will be critiqued/challenged. I’ve spent hours discussing unpopular perspectives with the women on this blog from the ODR to colorism to how black women see themselves to spending habits of black women. If they can’t rebut or explore your position then there is no free exchange of anything. Screw opinions. Build a premise and defend it.
@Monique8 @AJ2011 @oekmama
You cannot make a comparison unless you are willing to go from country to country.
Look, I am an African. I have studied my history thank you and I am not going to pretend that what Africans went through is the same as slavery because it is not.
@AJ2011
First, this is a blog not a PhD. dissertation. I don’t have to “prove” or “defend” my positions on anything to you or anyone else on this blog. and you don’t have to do so either. Indeed, nothing in any of your previous comments are facts they are simply your own assertions/conclusions wchih you’e drawn form your readings on the matter. And although you state them authoratively, they are still however, your opinions as what I have stated are mine .
@Monique8 You started with the assumption that I was comparing histories for the top spot in brutality, twice, and you were wrong. Then you tried to drawn parallels that don’t make sense. My position doesn’t come from just reading but consulting people who are smarter than me and you better believe smarter than you. Calling my position an opinion to neutralize its significance its going to cut it either.
@AJ2011 Your comments are condescending, insulting and unnecessarily nasty. Be that as it may, your initial conclusion was that there are no comparable parallels between AA history, African history and the history of blacks in the Caribbean and south America. You also stated that to draw those parallels would be disingenuous to all those respective histories. I and a few others disagree with that conclusion. Other that you referencing very smart people that you’ve consulted with youve not specifically given named any scholar or historian that actually supports your position. And even if you did it still would not take your position out of the realm of opinion because historians and scholars disagree all the time about lots of differentthings . A learned opinion is still opinion. I base my position on the works of Dubois, Garvey, Eric Williams, Walter Rodney, Hans koning, and others who have made these parallels and thus helped to lay the groundwork for the political ideology called panafricanism. I neither assumed or projected. I simply read your comment and drew a logical conclusion, ie you believe that there is something distinctively unique about the AA experience that does not lend itself to comparison,that there is something in that experience that other blacks in the diaspora didnot experience, thus holding that experience separate from alll others. When in fact European hegemonic power was pretty consistent in it’s brutality towards African people wherever they found themselves. And it was hegemonic just study the berlin conference ohf 1884. Making these distinctions create hierarchies and discounts the expereince of nonAA blacks as being not “as bad as”. This will be my last post onthis matter. My position and statements canstand on their own.
I agree with you but I still think this country is segregated in some sort…We focus too much on race. and that’s one of the big reason why people stick with their own. Just look at the movies…it’s a black movie or a white movie…and in these type of movies like Medea family reunion or twilight/harry potter. you don’t see black people in these movies or white people in these movies. As if we don’t live together I like diverse movies. Everything is just so segregated t.v shows etc. So I think one of the reason why a lot of people stick to their own race is because it’s comfortable. You might think you can’t relate to someone who is a different race then you are. Which in MOST cases it’s the opposite. You’ll find that you have more in common with someone that looks nothing like you….and it’s sad because we don’t see this. We should see more in the media encouragement to have diversity even if it’s just friendship. Having a interracial couple on a sitcom or having a movie about their relationship is still taboo because…you don’t see it often (on tv) so I think the media perception might be one of the reason.
As an African woman I would say that African women are waaaay more open to dating inter racially – and especially to dating white men. Actually a white man has an easier time getting an African woman than an African man, simply because they tend to have more to offer in terms of resources.
Chris is correct. I am guessing that a log African American women carry unnecessary guilt. The racial tensions in America don’t help the situation.
In my country there are 20,000 whites out of a total population of 40 million so even though white privilege exists, Africans don’t have to think about racism like AAs do because most of us didn’t see it growing up. For example there was only one white girl in my entire primary school. This means we don’t have any emotional baggage as far as racism is concerned.
Just to add, I don’t think the problem is AA women per se, but the fact that America in general is overly concerned with race issues.
@Joyce345
could not agree more about the obsession with race in america. i live in the uk and ir is simething that is so common no one pays special attention to it. according to some study 45% of jamaican men are in a ir relationship and the wm bw ir are close to that figure. its crazy in london most of my friends are mixed in some way, no one cares people are more chilled out when it comes to race. i also feel thay SOME african american women are dating outside of their race for very wrong reasons. i coe from rwanda and if i chose to hook up with some british dude no one will be suprised or horrified by it.
@arlette81
Sorry, I have to disagree with you when you say that some AA women are dating outside of their race for ‘very wrong reasons.’
People have a right to date and marry who they want to and NOT have to explain their reasons. I’m not interested in vetting whether a woman is marrying a white man for the ‘right’ reasons. I’m just not interested at all.
@arlette81@Joyce345 Yes, America is more obsessed with race than Britain. However, I don’t think the British are as blase about interracial as you make out. I’ve heard many Caribbean men denigrate black women and cite their issues with black women as their reason for dating out, like African american men. There is quite a considerable disparity between black men and women dating/marrying IR in the UK.
@yvonnelee @arlette81 @Joyce345 give me a link to a site like that please and thank you?
@kennaGransberg @yvonnelee @arlette81
http://blackdatingexperiment.blogspot.com
@Joyce345 Fantastic point….
@EarthJeff
I think also that part of it is pure economics.
The president may be black but whites still own America.
An African immigrant from a Third World country trying to make it in America would not want to further increase the odds against them by failing to assimilate into the dominant group.
Africans cannot afford to segregate themselves among other blacks hence the need to mix.
I think that with respect to women from the (English-speaking) Caribbean or whose backgrounds are from the (English-speaking) Caribbean, it is different from the US in that these compared to the US, is that “back home,” these are majority black countries where the whites of the slave regime as a whole are long gone, what is left today are the colonial ties which might not be seen as affecting the lives of most black people in dealing with whites on a day-to-day basis, or those colonial ties are not seen as a detriment in the day-to-day lives of most black women? The whites they see are not perceived as a threat? So they come to the US with a different perspective on race, it seems to me.
They are also from societies that are quite mixed; race-mixing is thus no big deal, it’s been going on forever in their countries–white/black; black/Asian, black/Indian etc., etc.
Moreover, when these English-speaking Caribbean women move to the US, they don’t have the baggage of American slavery, segregation, etc., which is used to keep African-American women “in their place.”
@pioneervalleywoman Agree. But there is colorism there too. I’ve even come across that attitude of ‘slave master’ love, and “being made to feel like a traitor for loving a white person” within my own family.
I think that in places where life is hard, and opportunities scarce, it is assumed that if you’re a wm on holiday, then you have the funds/possibility to maybe rescue a bw from the hard life and struggle for survival. And some will sling those words, because they don’t know about the couple’s relationship, but resent that one ‘crab’ has managed to crawl out of the barrel.
@pioneervalleywoman The whites from the colonial times are still in the Caribbean – they are what I call ‘rich in any world currency’. They don’t cause a ruckus, so they are almost under the radar. They send their kids to school in private schools at home, then to Uni in the UK, US, or Canada. That generation marry foreigners (rather than afro-caribbeans), but they also fully identify as Caribbeans too.
Hi, Oekmama,
That is what I was thinking about, the whites of the colonial era types are not on the radar screen of most black folks in the Caribbean, not causing a ruckus, much to do, I know with the independence movements of the 1950s and 1960s in particular (Jamaica, Trinidad as the bigger islands)…Funny you mention the colorism among blacks feeling that sense of “crabs in a barrel” that a black woman managed to escape with a white male foreigner. Among older female relatives, when I hear them talking about girlfriends from their youth who went to England or Canada and who married white men, I hear more admiration of a “local girl done good…”
I think that African and West Indian women are more concerned about finding a good man with good characteristics compared to many African-American women who may add the “and black” suffix. I have to admit that I’ve noticed most of my African/West Indian female colleagues are married to or dating white/non-black men and my African-American female collegues are married to or dating black men. It may just be a preference. I would also second Chris on her guess that women from Africa or the Caribbean were not made to feel guilty about having a non-black partner or at least not as much as African-American women. Lord willing, times are a changing.
I would think that there is something to your reasoning, Christelyn. One one hand, as time goes on, things that happened in the past get further removed from today so over time attitudes are able to – MUCH too slowly – change. On the other hand, the vast amount of history of the black/white history in this country, does still play a role. While we all are CHANGING things, they are not yet fully CHANGED.
growing up as a child my parents werent concerned about the colour of my spouse’s skin and like Chris as well as the other ladies we weren’t indoctrinated to have ‘race’ loyalty for black men BS. As a matter a fact i didnt know that there was a name for persons who married outside of their race, i thought it was just considered to be a RELATIONSHIP!
I think west indian women are open to interracial unions because in some cases, particularly situations were she is dating a man who is not only NOT black but of non-american decent, west indian women find a match in value systems and upbringing. My parents are west indian, my mother from St. Vincent and my father from Trinidad and Tobago. The young man I’m currently dating is part Swiss and Vietnamese. Most west indians have family in the UK, in other parts of the Carribean and South America and have the opportunity to travel to those destinations at some point in their youth. So the idea of dating outside of one’s race isn’t an issue and isn’t necessarily a matter of resources either. I actually find that notion somewhat offensive considering the fact that my parents and other west indian parents tend to raise their daughters to be self sufficient and well rounded, traits that can ultimately rule you out as a potential mate to many black men in the US.
“but my initial, (un) educated guess is that aside from South Africa, modern-day African women aren’t constantly bombarded with guilt about “slave master love†like American black women are.”
DING DING DING DING!!!!!
And unfortunately, so many American black women are willing to drink the Kool-Aid.
I think some of the difference has to do with the separation of families here in the US as opposed to other places. Also, and I haven’t fully fleshed this out in my mind, but I would venture to say it has something to do with economics. Slavery was a horrible institution, but there were many blacks in the US who were creating, inventing, advocating and changing the way we lived, while still having to contend with interpersonal relationships. One of the best periods of time for Black Americans was right after slavery during reconstruction. Blacks had their own businesses, universities, etc…What other place on the planet has generated Black female millionaires and billionaires than the U.S.? This is not to say that there weren’t Black women in other parts of the world who were changing the world, but so much of that change was incubated in the U.S. Going directly from being a slave to free creates a different mentality than going from being enslaved to living under colonialism, to freedom.
Happily, never had that ‘slave master love’ upbringing/guilt factor. Was raised on a street in California in the early 70’s where our neighbors were Japanese, Hispanic, Black, Hawaiian and Caucasian. We played together, slept over each others houses, dated each other and fought each other. By the time I graduated from HS (81) my 3 boyfriends had been Japanese, Black and Hispanic….in that order. No matter who I brought home, my parents were not about the color of the skin, but how they treated me. Some how, my parents just never let us buy into the “white is better” or “black is better” You are who you are, regardless of the skin you’re wrapped in. If you start seeing yourself, as black first instead of human first, then you limit yourself to who YOU really are.
It amazes me people still do this, we must teach our children, no matter what skin you’re wrapped in, you CANNOT allow someone else to define HOW you see yourself. Please let me be clear, it does not mean that I forget that I am Black, it just doesn’t matter to me, that I am. Would I be any other race…..lol, nope, cuz I am what I am….a beautiful BrwnBeauty 😀 LOL
@BrwnBeauty I am not sure who is more at fault here in America, Black or white. I recall reading about a Black football player, one of the NY jets who proposed to his White girlfriend after the superbowl and some of the comments were horrible, one stated “she will have to learn to cook chittins now” another said “she is a dead woman now” (Alluding to OJ) so with attitudes like this still prevailing, is it any wonder that IR marriages are still slow in growing here in the US? I have seen similiar comments on other articles about IR marriages and for the most part the majority are not from the Guardians of all things dark and lovely as Chris puts it. it is from whites. They have racism in Europe, but they still seem to be more open to IR marriages. The United States was the last to aboloish slavery and seems to be the last to respect and accept IR marriages wholeheartedly.
I agree about the “slave master” thing, but I think it is moreso because they grow up, or if born in the USA, are at least knowledgeable of ( via parents, vacations etc) places where they are the majority. Even though they may not have the economic/political power ( is… south Africa), they see themselves represented as the BEAUTY of the nation, unlike USA where we are taught we are the anithesis, to everything, fair, pale, blue eyed, straight haired, and beautiful.
They have a country where they are the dominant woman and they believe that they are WORTHY of love by any man. I had a Nigerian woman say to me once, ” Why wouldn’t any man want me? With these hips, lips, etc… that other women pay for?” And she meant it!..lol She was totally oblivious to the fact that a man, any man might not want her.
So, I think black women choose not to date out not because of the slave master thing, but because they believe they are NOT WORTHY OF TRUE LOVE AND RESPECT.
Afterall, if it was ONLY the slave master thing, then they would choose QUALITY BLACK MEN- but they don’t do that either. They choose men that represent how they feel about themselves.
@CALOVE
‘Afterall, if it was ONLY the slave master thing, then they would choose QUALITY BLACK MEN- but they don’t do that either. They choose men that represent how they feel about themselves.’
AAW could only choose quality bm only if those quality bm were there in sufficient numbers AND were interested in AAW.
From the statistics, I can easily tell that the pickings among bm are slim. Take away the guys who didn’t make it past high school, the ex convicts, down low, unemployed and those who are only looking for ww and you are left with a really small pool that is only too happy to keep on playing the field.
I am not an African American but anyone can do the math.
@Joyce345 So, what’s your position? Is it that Black women are FORCED to take low quality men because of the numbers? I believe in choice and until I met my husband I made the CHOICE to be alone until I found someone that treated me with respect and loved me for who I was. I dated various men, but when I found out they were not up to my standard ( honesty, fidelity, non-abusive etc…) then I walked. Sure you may be hurt, but you don’t stay around, you keep it moving. My family members used your excuse for the men that was beating them everyday.
Your position is a bad one, especially for women that may have children but choose to stay with gutter crap. This may sound new to you, but a Black woman CAN be alone, focus on her children, education ( or whatever she pleases) until she can find the quality she is looking for- black, white, or whatever.
I pity any woman that believes she MUST take what’s available because she can “do the math.”
@CALOVE
‘So, what’s your position? Is it that Black women are FORCED to take low quality men because of the numbers?’
Actually if the bw in question is specifically looking to marry a bm in America, that is my position.
Obviously, if she was open to other races, then there is a much better chance of landing a QLL man.
A lot of AA women have done exactly as you say … not settled for low quality. A lot of them are are still waiting for a good bm at age 40.
@calove I hate to say that I agree with you. A lot of the women I know approach relationships in the mindset of an undeserving potential mate. Its sad that I’ve heard women say things like ” I’m so lucky to have him.” or “Somebody actually want me…” It seems many women have lost sight of their worth, the very thing that attracts a man of substance, regardless of his nationality.
@SilentStylist @CALOVE I’ve heard men and women say how “lucky they are to have someone” and there’s nothing wrong with being grateful you found love. Where it becomes an issue is where they make it clear that they feel like they aren’t worthy of love, that they don’t think anyone else will want them, etc. It’s one thing if someone’s just “lucky in love”, but if that person is projecting really low self-esteem, it’s something they need to address.
Women like that make easy targets for predators, who are more than happy to have them think these DBRs are a “good catch”.
Its such a shame that black women are allowing statistics to inform their life decisions. Hasn’t anyone noticed that none of them are in our favor? How many articles have you read in the past year that reminded you that your black male counterpart is a scarcity, that he’s an endangered, elusive creature, one that even at the point you two make contact will have no interest in you as a mate? That should make for excellent conversation at a date. (eyeroll) Women need to do their part and change their mindset. I’ve dated black men all my life, American, West Indian and African. He’s human just like any other man and a woman should appeal to him as such. We’ve started looking at eachother as commodities and products, does any of that sound familiar? The black man is a “hot” commodity. The black woman? She is not. Um pardon my french but fuck that. I don’t and will never subcribe to those “statistics”. I live in DC and there are beautiful black people EVERYWHERE I look. Gasp! Couples even. Walk into the situation ANY situation well aware of your worth or don’t get into the situation at all.
@SilentStylist Regarding dating and mating. You know statistics are not needed. All one has to do is just look around them at the, malls, grocery stores, churches, parks, colleges, etc. I am just being honest with myself.
The only place I have been to in the Caribbean is Trinidad and Tobago, where my wife is from. It seems to me that, even though they were a slave colony, they don’t have the same racial baggage that we have here in America. There seems to be a wall of distrust from many black people in America towards white people. I think that, in Tobago, black people are more open to friendships and romantic relationships with other races.
@Brice Cameron Here, Here! Seriously men from Germany, America, Canada England and Sweden come there to find mates. Some good and bad relationships but the good thing about this is that we know our past but it never prevented black women there exploring their options.
@Brice Cameron Are they more open or just the majority in their respective societies? Also are whites, especially from the US, more open to these relationships because it distances them from American history and white guilt? Hopefully you’re not suggesting that black women in the US not having higher IR rates is because they are simply “not open”, non black men have their prejudices against them too and it comes from no where valid from what I’ve seen.
@AJ2011
Some American black women are open to IRs, but many are not. That seems to be one of the main points of this site, to open IR’s as an option for black women. If they were already open to them, then this wouldn’t be necessary. Moslt likely, there are other factors as well that contribute to the low IRR rates for black women. But I do think this is a major factor.
@Brice Cameron Chris posted a number of 67% for black women who were interested in mixing it up in the romantic dept, that’s a pretty healthy number compared the number of women married to nonblack men. I’m still waiting on a survey for the nonblack guys.
What do you think the reason is that more black women are not involved in interracial relationships?
@AJ2011
If you think it is because non black men don’t want relationships with black women, then I beg to differ. A pretty woman is a pretty woman. My wife has never had a problem getting male attention from any race. As she often tells me, “I’ve got a magnet that pulls people, baby”. A lot of that has to do with confidence and an open, welcoming nature. I think a lot of American black women have tough skin and expect to get hurt. Sometimes people end up getting what they expect.
@Brice Cameron I’ve never been asked that question out right, thanks for that. I have no idea. I can think of a dozen reasons but they’re all connected and then its a question of what came first. Jet Magazine a piece called The New Negro Woman in the 50’s and it seems that black women, at least in the states, never really got a chance to enjoy this social ramp up before Black Power, Sexual Liberation, and Feminism took their turns. I don’t think that’s the one reason but its worth exploring.
@Brice Cameron She is pretty women depending on whose looking and what they find attractive in the first place.
@Brice Cameron “What do you think the reason is that more black women are not involved in interracial relationships?”
There really in no one reason. There are a number of them.
First of course is the fact that most people date and marry within their own group.
Second. Black people are still rather segregated as far as where they live work and go to school.
Third. Black women are socialized to not date a person of another race. They are also sold scare stories about what non-black men want from them and how non-black men can’t cut it in the sack.
This would all be a non issue if the state of black marriage was on par with other races but it is not hence all of the attention. This is not a new problem it took years to get where we are now.
To my mind around the late 1960’s to early 70’s a lot of structural things changes socially to cause the current problem. It will not be solved over night. American black women are only now just realizing their situation. There is a lot of denial at this point is time but the writing is on the wall and more and more ABW are reading it and making adjustments.
@AJ2011
For most of us average looking people (talking about myself, I have never seen you), not everyone will find us attractive. But we keep moving until we find someone with whom the attraction is mutual. Just as you don’t find every man attractive, regardless of race, not every man will find you attractive, regardless of race. Maybe some societal and historic factors make a white man hesitant to date a black woman just as many black women are hesitant to date a white man. But things are changing rapidly and we like minded souls are changing them.
@AJ2011@Brice Cameron That was 67% of black women based on a survey of one, predominately white, dating site. Most black women would probably go to black dating sites to find a mate. I don’t think those stats represent most black women attitudes to IR. Personally, I found most black women still have no interest in interracial.
@yvonnelee@Brice Cameron The Kaiser Family Foundation and the Washington Post sponsored the survey, I think you be confusing this with the OKCupid thing.
http://news.discovery.com/human/black-women-america-122301.html
Nothing wrong with disregarding stats though. You have to navigate this society in a way that works for, stats be damned.
@Brice Cameron Is it that simple? Wouldn’t the numbers be higher if it were?
@AJ2011 @Brice Cameron
It is easy to answer a survey and say that you are open to an interracial marriage, but when it comes to actually getting close to a treacherous white devil, that is a different story.
@Brice Cameron @AJ2011
“…when it comes to actually getting close to a treacherous white devil…”
hahah!… u forgot ‘blue-eyed’…
…sounds like something my husband would say. he’s french but fascinated with stuff like the N.O.I.(Nation of Islam)
Well my mother’s side is a product of this…my great grandmother(Jamaican) married a Indian immigrate.
From my perspectives, there are West Indians who have their preferences in dating IRR. Thats ok though, each to their own. I have never come across people flaunting their IRR or saying look at me Im better than you because Im with a white man etc. Or cussing out races esp black women for dating IRR. Im sorry to say it but from what Im seeing American culture has its good points and bad points. A lot of people are still walking around with chips on their shoulders about the past. The bad guys should let relationships move on to what the subjects want it to be. The DBR should stop spreading hatred. Yes it happened in the past but should not be your future.The West Indian perspective from where I came from is look for good in all situations turn it around to make the best of a situation. Know where you came from and know where you are going. I know there is racism in this world and people may try to rain on your parade. Dont let them. Look for good in a mate and the rest will follow…..home Im not going too much off topic. Basically US people need to embrace good diversity and dont put up with BS just to stay loyal to the BC.
not *home* but *hope*
@Marcie this might be a good listen to.
http://youtu.be/sMqCzgKZ-uE
Our racial baggage isn’t the same, that’s why!
A lot of my girlfriends who I grew up with on the island have married guys from various European countries. European men love island women, the tourism industry helps this along as well.
A lot of people mention upbringing, but I think one can’t really leave out the general social segregation of AA BW, some of it self-selected. Ralph Richard Banks is one of the few academics who’ve actually brought this up.Even if an AA BW was not specifically conditioned to avoid non-black men (and I know many who didn’t hear a peep from family or friends about IR dating or slavemaster love), conditioning can happen later on… my AA female friends have attended college with white people, worked with white people, gotten along with white people, etc., but for whatever reason, would NEVER socialize with them on their own accord (save for the company party or something like that where everyone has to be there). All of these women have large groups of “sistafriends,” sorority sisters, church family, professional “networks” of other BW and BM, but they are the main ones asking, “Well, how do I meet non-black men?” or saying, “Non-black men don’t approach me.” They are deliberately leading segregated lives, and this seems to be a pattern that entrenches itself in college, for whatever reason… this is true even among the BW who grew up in mixed-race areas.
On the other hand, the Caribbean and African BW I met in college would seem a lot more comfortable having legitimate interactions with non-blacks. They still were involved in their Caribbean or African student groups and even the AA student groups, but they could also interact in friendly, unguarded ways with non-black students. I knew one girl of Caribbean descent who went to a Jewish student group’s meetings sometimes and when someone asked why, she said, “Jewish guys are HAWT!” No shame in her game in saying that, and she said it around a bunch of white women too. I cannot imagine most AA women “admitting” that out loud… it would be something they might whisper quietly to “sistafriends” after a few drinks and then they’d go back to talking about BM again.
I’m still trying to figure out how this self-segregation happens myself… because it’s clear to me how much it’s a result of conditioning. BW seemed more open to IR dating back when it was really uncommon and often illegal (pre-1960s) and weren’t nearly as vocal against it as many are now. So why the change?
@Bunny77 I think, like the WM, many BW assume white guys don’t want them. The average American relies way too much on the media as a source for their info about people of different backgrounds. If I was the average person who watched television and had that and Youtube as my dominate sources of info, I’d assume all WM want thin, blond WW. I’d also assume that they were conservative and not open to IRR. But since I am not the average American, I know differently. But I can kind of feel the sistas to be honest. And I can kind of feel the WM too.
I’ve called it a “Cold War” of sorts where members of both groups assume that the other isn’t interested, so neither really bothers. I’ve seen it on this board, where a random WM will say, “Wow, this is great. I never thought that there were BW interested in WM!” And on my end, BW friends and colleagues crawled out of the woodwork when when they saw my wedding photos because they were now intrigued… simply because they didn’t think WM married BW. And you know some of these folks… college educated, well-traveled, BW in their 30s who one would think would have a broader worldview than that…
Human beings naturally gravitate to people they think have favorable opinions of them. The whole WM-AW thing, for example, I think is partially fueled by AW’s very vocal and visible affection for WM… which annoys my AW friend who actually wants an AM and is tired of WM of all types (ancient, not well educated, rednecky) thinking she’s going to fall over them because they’re WM. But, the image out there is that AW loooove WM, so that comfort level is there on both sides. I’ve heard the same of WM and HW in places like Texas.
The only thing I can say is that AA sistas have to take control of their own destinies and the ones who want to date IR have to get in the game, so to speak.
@R. Kamaria
@Bunny77 “BW seemed more open to IR dating back when it was really uncommon and often illegal (pre-1960s) and weren’t nearly as vocal against it as many are now. So why the change?”
You know what happened…lol. We just don’t like saying it out loud because of how it will be perceived.
@Bunny77 @R. Kamaria “…friends and colleagues crawled out of the woodwork” “….Human beings naturally gravitate to people they think have favorable opinions of them. ”
LOLing about the woodwork & gravity: I have def. noticed that once you’re seen out with Euro guys, then a lot more want to come over/flag you down and chat or whatever. Including some guys, I intuited, wouldn’t have been in my face if I’d been an unknown/mystery swirler. That’s where I think ‘duty dating’ can also help… your date might not be the love of your life or movie-star handsome but it’s good to get out and circulate IR. …Even going out in a non-date way with Euro guy pals (or with euro girls.. I know some ppl say the women are treacherous or ‘****blockers’ but luckily that wasn’t my experience at all)….Similar thing now when I’m out with the kids(major pro-swirl evidence, i guess. lolz): sometimes men will strike up conversations.
Back in the stone age, when I was in high school, I was into lots of different music (and it was the era of the band t-shirt …80s) so wearing my concert tees would spark conversations too.
IMO, A lot of it boils down to not being afraid to be yourself. There’s a kind of conservative(not in the trad. sense but in ways of *limitation*) vibe with many AA women that might be off-putting…I’m not a rainbeau so I can’t say for sure..just wild guesses here. lolz.
OTOH, It (woodwork & gravity) also happened when I was wearing normal-ish clothes, single and out w/ AA girlfriends… to the extent that it became an in-joke(that I had something like “I like white guys” “Whites apply here” written in a secret code on my forehead.) *rolls eyes*…. I really think that a lot of it is eye contact, smiling, feeling comfortable around different people. I’m basically shy around new people but it’s not a racial thing & I’m not shy to the point of rudeness or icy-ness. OTOH I’m pretty observant and nosy…*curious* is a more flattering way to say it i guess. LOL yah, quiet and curious.
…to tie it back to topic, I’ve noticed that a lot of women from the Carib, African countries, and suburban or eccentrically-raised AfroAm/mixed women seem more quietly confident..That’s going to affect lots of things like eye contact, posture, demeanor, the places you like to go,… the general vibe you give off to men.
yah, i think it’s onnaccounta a lot of Americans being chicken sh!t. If the beige/white american guy is chicken and brown/black american girl is chicken then nothing much is going to happen.
When you throw in FOB or 2nd gen euros or afro-somethings with less hangups/reservations then things get more fun. lolz
the problem is how do the unchicken ameriquis find each other more easily? I think the internet/personal adverts have helped a lot. meanwhile, in the real meatspace world you just have to be open, friendly and sort of brave esp. the menfolk.
@ForestElfQueen meatspace LOL
@Aabaakawad hhaha ….a glaring sign that i’ve clocked too many online hours. lolz
Interesting blog. I have a different opinion. I don’t think they’re more open than many of us here in the US. Perhaps more men who are open flock to them. Come on, I’d date a woman who lived in a beautiful tropical climate as well. lol. Sure beats the cold Midwest! But seriously, I don’t think they’re any more open to it than us. Umm, you have thousands of followers who are from the United States. This follower in particular always interacts with a diversity of folks. It’s not all about us BW. The WM I encounter are kinda meow men, if you know what I mean.
@R. Kamaria
I think it is true that more non-black men flock to foreign BW more than to AA women.
I am Jamaican and I have never had trouble attracting nonblack men. When white guys learn that I am not AA, they behave differently. Even the ones who have no romantic interest are open and friendly. I think that WM are learning from experience and from other white men that foreign BW are more open to IR and have less hostility toward WM than AA women.
Lots of Jamaican women want white men and they are not shy about it and they don’t make excuses for dating white men the way AA women do. I think our openness makes WM feel that they have a real chance with us and that makes us more approachable.
@kitty123 @R. Kamaria There are some stereotypes out there about foreign black women- some to our advantage, other’s not so much. I know WM always think I can cook really well because I’m from the Caribbean (born and partly raised there). I am not a good cook LOL, but I don’t correct them about their assumption. Haha. I also find that men in general think foreign black women are more accepting of traditional female roles and generally they are.
I meet many Caribbean and African women here who mostly date non-black women (Berlin) and it seems to be a variety of reasons. Sometimes, the women need to leave a bad situation and marry to get “the papers” regardless if they love the guy or not. I have also been told that their men are cheating and terrible to them so they sought out different options. The men seem to date whoever, so they are just doing the same it seems.
@KimberlyButler
As an African woman, I think also that part of it is for purely pragmatic reasons.
The president may be black but whites still own America.
An African immigrant from a Third World country trying to make it in America – or any western country – would not want to further increase the odds against them by failing to assimilate into the dominant group.
That is probably why many Africans in the US are keen on distinguishing themselves from AAs.
Africans cannot afford to segregate themselves among other blacks hence the need to mix.
@Joyce345 @KimberlyButler
Agree on the different frame of mind thing: I also don’t have the slavery baggage/history so I view things differently. I tell people I never knew I was black until I lived in N. America, especially the US.
However, cultural aspect is also big. Many African immigrants feel unable to relate deeply to AAs initially (until they’ve stayed a while) as they see similarities end mostly in skin colour. Culture and socialization within both groups differ greatly.
Datewise, I’ve tended to connect to Africans or WM, not AA dudes. Although in my case, living across different countries while growing up always kept my social circles multiracial.
I’m a black Jamaican-American woman who was born in the U.S. but have Jamaican parents and family. It has been my experience that black women from the Caribbean (and most other countries) feel more open, and are more likely to date outside of our race than American black women because we were raised with a different mindset and have a different historical reference to who we are. Let me explain:
As a Jamaican woman (married to a white man) I consider myself different than pretty much all Americans, both black and white. Clearly, not because of my color, but because of my Jamaican heritage. So, I know I’m different and I’m PROUD of it. When I think of my familial history, I think in terms of my Jamaican heritage, not slavery, as most African-Americans do. Although there was slavery in Jamaica, its lasting impact on race relations and the psyche of Jamaicans is nothing like it is in the U.S. In short, I don’t view things in terms of race like many Americans do. Yes, I’m different, but I’m different because I’m Jamaican. Not because I’m black. Caribbean people view life and people differently. That’s why we’re more likely to “date out.” There’s no easy way to explain how we think other than to say the horrible history of slavery in the U.S. doesn’t weigh heavily on our shoulders nor do we view life with this history in the back of our minds. My entire upbringing was rooted in pride for my Jamaican culture, love for God, and love for myself. It’s with this confidence that I approach life.
When I was dating I made a list of what I wanted in a man, and race wasn’t on it. To me, that’s superficial. While at a party a friend of mine once asked me how I was able to just start talking and flirting with white/hispanic/asian guys. Wasn’t I worried they weren’t into black girls? I told her it didn’t even cross my mind. And honestly? It didn’t because I’m hot, successful and I have a great personality. Why wouldn’t they be into me?
Now, before you call me arrogant do you at least see what I’m talking about? We non-Americans just think differently. We’re proud of who we are. And who we are is much more than the color of our skins. And we don’t limit ourselves. Nor do we feel the need to explain to anyone our choices.
Hopefully, this gives you guys a better insight into the mindset of some black women from other countries.
@Anne55
I absolutely agree. You have made a great point that foreign blacks cultures are equally foreign to AAs and White Americans. Even when a Caribbean/African is ‘acting black’ her black will still be foreign to the American black. So there is no difference between dating an AA man and a white man.
@Joyce345 @Anne55 You summed it up perfectly. To me there’s no difference between dating an AA man and a white American man. They aren’t Jamaican and I identify culturally to Jamaicans… no matter what his/her skin color is. And contrary to what most people think, Jamaicans come in all colors and ethnicities.
You know, now that I think of it, I’ve never seen an African woman in the USA with an AA man. She’s either married to an African man or a WM. Same with Caribbean women too for the most part. If her husband is black, he’s Caribbean. Otherwise, he’s a non-black guy. @Joyce345 @Anne55
@Bunny77 @Joyce345 @Anne55 Wait Bunny– do you live in DC?I don’t remember if you were the poster that said you did?
Anyway–if not, come to DC! lol We have plenty of African women with AA men lol
@Bunny77 @Joyce345 @Anne55 ” I’ve never seen an African woman in the USA with an AA man. ”
I know of one couple, my parents’ friends…he’s AA and she’s from Sierra Leone. He met her while traveling there.
No, I’m from Detroit originally and now I live in Southwest Ohio. Not too many Caribbeans or Africans in either spot!I have spent a summer or two doing internships in DC and I did see a lot more African men and women… you’re probably right about the types of relationships that happen there! @sharisajidan @Joyce345 @Anne55
@Anne55 I totoally get what your saying and as I first generation American whose family is also from Jamaica I agree with the statment that we were raised to be proud of being Jamaican.
@Anne55 Totally agree. Most people, regardless of race, identify 1st and foremost with their culture. I grew up in a very racially and culturally mixed environment, but still it took me till college to really acknowledge that White-Americans are not just this generic and monolithic mass of white people. I know 3rd, 4th, 5th generation White-Americans who still hold their cultural traditions from being Italian, Irish, or even English. (some people don’t even consider Italian to be white…) They have differing cultural backgrounds and they sometimes vehemently dislike each other despite both being white. Same goes for black people. Africans and people from the Caribbean can (not always) have very racist attitudes towards African-Americans.
Having a different perspective of race has more to the with the demographics. If you live a black majority any “culture” or “heritage” that exists is the result of the majority having the freedom to cultivate it. Oh the other hand African and Caribbean men and women from Jamaica, Trini/Tabago, and Haiti came to US and pioneered and/or participated in prominent, black nationalist and Pan African efforts so this idea of race not being a factor in some aspect of black cultures abroad isn’t accurate. Blacks being raised to see people as individuals isn’t something unique to Caribbean and African cultures either. Most of the AA/Black American women on this site were raised that way. This doesn’t change until we become adults. I can’t say I’m “proud” to be African American because I didn’t make that call and its not something I’ve accomplished (but I enjoy it without apology) and I don’t see one culture represented on this forum that doesn’t have the same complexities when it comes to race. I don’t just study these things in school but on my own time reading books, journal articles, essays, watching media from as much of the diaspora as I can. I do rely on academic analysis more than personal experiences in these cases, mainly because they don’t err on false pride or a perpetuate a cultural facade.
@Anne55 You don’t sound arrogant. I don’t see anything in your coming-of-age experience that differs from mine or most black women. What you said about nationality vs race is correct. So you have to wonder why there are the consensus of AA not being receptive to blacks from abroad exists, as if the opposite is expected?
@AJ2011 I wasn’t raised in a “black-centric” or “race-centric” household. Even though my parents were older and personally experienced Jim Crow in the South, race just wasn’t something we focused on. While that may have made it difficult for me to relate to other black people (always told I acted white, talked white, etc), it benefited me when it came to relating to non-black people. I didn’t have any of the notions of loyalty to the “black community” when it came to dating. I didn’t feel uncomfortable around non-black people socially, so it made it very easy for me to attract and date non-black (white) men.
@Anne55 Typos-a-plenty here, deal with it 🙂
@AJ2011 I wasn’t raised in a “black-centric” or “race-centric” household. Even though my parents were older and personally experienced Jim Crow in the South, race just wasn’t something we focused on. While that may have made it difficult for me to relate to other black people (always told I acted white, talked white, etc), it benefited me when it came to relating to non-black people. I didn’t have any of the notions of loyalty to the “black community” when it came to dating. I didn’t feel uncomfortable around non-black people socially, so it made it very easy for me to attract and date non-black (white) men.
@The Working Home Keeper Me neither. I didn’t think there was much ado about mixed couples until I saw Spike Lee’s X where he “give up” smoking and White Women LOL. I was raised in a black neighborhood with all the amenities and award winning education as the whiter more diverse neighborhoods that bordered ours. Our banks, grocers, and businesses were owned and operated by blacks, most of them living in the neighborhood, more people were married and owned homes. Even now the black elementary and HS are in the top 10 for the state and top 100 in the country so I wasn’t familiar with “black” as a burden. My church, museum classes, girl scout troop, parents’ friends and their children, and our God parents (we have total of 10 between me and sis because my parents are nuts) are diverse so I never had a bad feeling about people who were black or even American. There was a balance there and thousands of black children in my neighborhood grew up with this kind of exposure and it was a good for us. So I do get irritated when black neighborhoods are seen as bad or limiting and equally pissed when blacks make race the qualifier for friendships. Relating to people with my values, race be damned, helped me.
It sounds like we had very similar upbringings! Well, we are from what I consider “sister” cities! 🙂 @AJ2011 @The Working Home Keeper
@AJ2011 “Black as a burden” is an excellent way to describe the mindset of some American blacks. For me, being black is on the level of being right-handed or wearing a size 6 shoe. It’s not something I’m ashamed of or feel burdened by. It’s just what I am. But it doesn’t define me!
@Bunny77 @AJ2011 Reminds me of a bumper stick I saw yesterday – “A good childhood lasts a life time”.
@Bunny77 There is one black area like ours in the city and 2 more in the burbs. These areas are hard to integrate because most people don’t move and if they do or pass on their kids take over. I’m not staying though, the houses are too small:) and there is another black area I want to live in across town. Its blighted but there is a lot of potential and my motives are “selfish”. But if I were married and had children we’d be living here or the other neighborhood.
@Bunny77 You know what though, even after saying all that I still entertain the idea of leaving the US anyway.
@AJ2011
I am curious. In our earlier exchange, you seemed pessimistic on the chances of black women and white men getting married, but when you talk about places you could live in your city, you only mention black areas. If you are interested in marrying non-black men, are you limiting yourself in other ways. You are unlikely to meet non-black men if you limit yourself to areas where they don’t live.
@AJ2011
I am curious. In our earlier exchange, you seemed pessimistic on the chances of black women and white men getting married, but when you talk about places you could live in your city, you only mention black areas. If you are interested in marrying non-black men, are you limiting yourself in other ways. You are unlikely to meet non-black men if you limit yourself to areas where they don’t live.
@Brice Cameron Back that train up Cam. I’m pessimistic because I don’t agree that black women are responsible for the assumptions white men make about them. My choice in where I live has more to do with what I know about infrastructural improvement and investment potential in these areas and they just happen to be black, most of the whites live in sprawl which I detest, sprawl that is. Buying a home is a huge investment so I will be looking at places with the best potential, not where da white men at LOL. Any property I acquire will belong to the family as part of our portfolio anyway.
In my hierarchy of attraction, race doesn’t have a place as much “dark features” which white, Asian, and Latin men have equal standing. If a white guy believes there is something wrong or even “racist” with me being comfortable around blacks who share my values then something is wrong with him, not moi:). Whites do it and that courtesy should be extended to other groups too.
@Brice Cameron By “dark” I mean Russel Wong, Johnny Depp, Oliver Sitruk, David Schimmer, Chow Yung Fat, Richard Chavira etc.
@AJ2011
There is nothing wrong with being comfortable around people of your own ethnic group. Most people are. But if you are going to marry someone of a different ethnic group, then you will have to be comfortable around their people too. I was just sort of looking for clues as to what in your own experience makes you pessimistic. I don’t understand your reference to white men’s assumptions. I agree with your statement, but I don’t get the relevance. Please elaborate.
@Brice Cameron I’m comfortable around most people in most settings, my point is how my decision to live in a neighborhood that is black is perceived as something uninformed and limiting, like there is no value to be found simply because there are no whites. Whites can live in complete homogeneity and that choice isn’t seen the same. Assumptions; that they’re (black women) not interested in whites guys and expecting these women make an effort when white guys aren’t willing to do the same. Even when you said that I should live among white men to date one. I can’t meet them in places I frequent including my campus? How about my Irish Set Dancing Classes? My membership functions at the museum? Town Hall meetings? The city planning commission I “intern” at once a week? The VA? How does that work?
@AJ2011
I was just asking a question. I wasn’t trying to imply anything. I really wasn’t trying to tell you where you should live or make a negative judgement about it. I think I offended you and I am sorry if I did.
@Brice Cameron I can’t communicate my tone over the web but I can’t say I’m offended, at least not yet. Ask more questions if you think there is something missing. My main point is that black women are still women and for some reason they aren’t given that benefit. A Native American women can say she is not dealing with a “Pale Face” and she is taken as a woman speaking for herself. A black women says I not dealing with the “slave master” and she is taken as a spokes person for her demographic and whats even worse is that black women get upset with her instead of the guys using her as an excuse to stereotype. That’s not right.
@AJ2011 @Brice Cameron I understand what you’re saying…would we ever suggest a white guy interested in swirling move to a black neighborhood? IDK.
@iHeartLove Doubt it and to be fair we’d assume they wouldn’t before they could explain themselves.
@AJ2011 ITA. I’ve brought up the same thing before. BW are expected to do all the work, while the men just sit around. Why do we have to move to white neighborhoods/events? Why can’t they move to black neighborhoods/events? Like you said, you don’t have to live in a white neighborhood to date IR. Why limit your dating prospects to your neighborhood? Since non-bm are not likely to go to black events anyway, you’re doing what you can by attending “whiter” events like you mentioned.
@Mel_woman @AJ2011
” Why can’t they move to black neighborhoods/events?”
Simple answer. White men just don’t have to move anywhere to look for women. Why? Because they are not having trouble finding women who want them. I’ll include those guys Law talks about who give up and get the little dog. All most of those guys have to do is widen their dating pool and there would be a woman of color who wants them. So no, the person with the weaker hand has to make more of an effort.
Here’s the thing… whenever I’m talking with women (and not about race but just about relationships in general), this common thread of “Someone should tell me to stop being jerks/get married/stop cheating/be better/etc.” always comes up. A lot of women get very offended when advice columnists/writers/etc. (especially the male ones) tell women what they should consider when seeking a quality relationship and ask them why don’t they tell men to just “be better.”What women don’t seem to get is that men know men… and men know that men don’t respond to being told what to do. They’re going to do what they want to do regardless of what others tell them to do (maybe with the exception of their fathers or someone like that).So, since it is women usually seeking the advice, the only thing women can control is themselves and they’re choices. So if a man is being jerky, dump him. If a man won’t marry you, move on and find a man who will. If you’re with a cheater, leave him. If these men in particular want to change, they’ll do so of their own accord.So, back on topic. BW can get mad all day long about what non-BM are or aren’t doing to show they’re interest, but ultimately so what? You’re still just as single and they’re living their lives not thinking about you and pursuing the women who are in their orbit. @Brenda55 @Mel_woman @AJ2011
@Brenda55 @Mel_woman @AJ2011
I’d also like to add that maybe the advice should be to try *diverse* and/or *upscale* places/neighborhoods and events.
‘white’ could be the trailer park or wrestling show. lolz. let’s not get the two ideas all scrambled up. haha
“A Native American woman can say she is not dealing wiht a “Pale Face” and she is taken as a woman speaking for herself”
I doubt that one. As minorities I am sure many assume we speak for all.
@The Working Home Keeper SOO understand that WHK, LOL, my cousins used to call us oreos…black on the outside, white on the inside, because we spoke differently. My brothers and sisters and I were like..ermmmm WHAT is speaking white!?!?!? Like what does that mean!?!?!?!? Can laugh at it now, but can sooo remember feeling like, why do they think we’re speaking ‘white’ or trying to act ‘white’ what does act white mean!?!? SMH. hmm never thought of the loyalty to the Black community…interesting thought..will have to ponder that WHK. Was loyal to me, lol, so does that count!?!?
@BrwnBeauty Yeah, I heard it all – act white, talk white, listen to white music, have a white girl name LOL!
NOOOO ROFL!! you toooooo
Jennifer Marie
heheheheeeee
@BrwnBeauty Mary Ellen 🙂
Okay, so I might be throwing some gasoline on the fire here, but so be it.
I agree with the general premise that Caribbean and African BW (first or second generation Americans) are more open to IR than the average AA woman. I think the reasons mentioned by the Caribbean and African women are pretty accurate as well.
But I do notice that whenever one of these topics comes up in which Americans (men or women) are compared to others (Caribbeans, Africans, Europeans), the floodgates are often open to esteem the non-Americans while classifying the Americans as spineless, mindless rubes. And yes, some of us can certainly be that… but again, I think the men and women on this board in general (regardless of where we come from) are not exactly like the rest of the masses.
I lived in Florida for about five years, and let’s just say that the Caribbean-American women I met there were just as likely to be baby mamas, to be raising kids alone, to be dealing with DBRs (just Caribbean ones, not American ones) as the AA BW. These folks weren’t setting the world on fire or “marrying well” or taking the world by the horns, kicking butt and taking names, etc. And we know the Caribbeans in the UK are going through the same issues (if not worse), so I have to take a lot of the “well, we were raised differently because we’re from XYZ island” stuff with a grain of salt because I have seen plenty of Caribbeans show the same levels of pathology as some poorer AAs.
I can’t speak much for Africans because my experiences with them have been limited.
@Bunny77 Amen to that.
@Bunny77 Last night when I wrote my post I started it with a long preemptive paragraph explaining how I was talking in general terms. I deleted it because it was too long.
You’re right. There are a lot of people with the same cultural background as myself who are exactly as you described. When a person comes from a broken or dysfunctional home it doesn’t matter where he/she is from, they are more likely to lead a dysfunctional life themselves. Again, I’m speaking in general terms.
Most of us on this website pretty much think alike. My post was intended to give a frame a reference to why I think the way I think. I know there are plenty of African-American women who think just like me.
Thanks for responding Anne55. Your post didn’t bother me at all, and I do understand that in writing, it’s hard to get across all the nuances and point out that not every person is like ABC or XYZ. My point was more toward a general trend I see whenever the AA vs. other BW (or Americans vs. non-Americans) come up in general… eventually, it seems to disintegrate into Americans = bad, everyone else = good. I just didn’t want it to get to that in this thread.And I’m no flag-waving “Americans can do no wrong” type either! I think there’s a lot that all of us can learn from each other!@Anne55
Ooo. When I saw the topic I just knew the comments were going to fly. I’ve always thought the same thing. So let me throw some gas on the fire since I heard all about my views on the positives of growing up in an all-black society. I’m from the Caribbean. I grew up in an predominantly black country. The emphasis wasn’t on finding a “good black man.” The emphasis was on finding a “good man.” Fast forward, I come to America. My emphasis is still on finding “a good man.” One person below mentioned that one of the reasons for the lack of openness to IR dating by African-American women is because they are socialized to “not” date outside their race. This may be ONE of the reasons.
This is interesting. I’m Nigerian and most of Nigerian friends and I were raised to marry other Nigerians, more specifically Nigerians in our own ethnic group. I don’t know any Nigerians that were raised to date others.
Most of them are shocked when I tell them I’m open to dating “Onyinbos” as they like to say. They tell me that I’m brave and that they couldn’t do it because of their parents and they want ot preserve the culture. I know many Nigerians, and I haven’t met one open to IR yet. So it’s not always one case fits all. But of course, some of us are individuals. In Nigeria, I did see a few bw-wm couples. And I’ve learned through the internet about many Nigerian woman/wm couples. I just haven’t met any in real life.
WOW Christleyn great discussion…! Though I felt I missed out, writing here so late. Thanks for posting the question( I tried with typos) ! I found many were learning lots about each other and what they thought of different cultures. The comment @Bunny77 comment of putting gasoline under the fire, when the old heads hear about non-American BW having kids out of wedlock, they think they have no shame!! Now the old people think of the youths as being Americanized when they do that, because it seems as an okay thing in American culture and they should feel shame like the their generation and get married off, (I can sign to that). At one point in time America was like that being shame when you were not married and prego.
As for how the thinking could change for African American Women about IR dating, express your interest in WM more, someone mentioned the Asian Women doing that, also bury the hatchet of the slave master rape thing, BM rape to and what?? I hate the actions of that generation but how could I hate the man, he does not know better, because there were white people that saw black people as humans and treated them with respect and did not understand how are things so. This Blog is making a change! If everyone was to say, I think White men can really be HAWT, I would date and marry one and say it like you mean it!! I think plenty WM will come over wondering who is that woman with curiousity! lol
I apologize for my lateness to the conversation. I am sure someone may have answered,so forgive me if I am duplicating the question. Why is it that black women that are not born here in the U.S. more open than we are? That too has baffled me.