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I'm not using the "black card" term anymore either. It's just a vehicle for associating race with bad behavior. I like and can make greens and cornbread, I still like gospel music even though I'm an Atheist, I enjoy Hand Dancing, I can code-switch, I can double dutch my ass off and play Spades. I have a million play cousins and "Aunties" too. If you don't that doesn't make you less black, its not verb, but it doesn't mean I was isolated from reater society either. I date interracially and this things were never something I had to hide. In fact if you meet 2 white guys in VA who talk trash when they play Spades they're probably my ex and his best friend.
Personal accounts seem to be the easiet way to communicate a perspective, especially on this subject so I'll give one. My neighborhood has 2 suburban borders, one with similar racial demos and one with fewer blacks. In the 80s the latter had a white majority and the blacks who could afford to live there tended to live on the border because they wanted access to the schools and the homes were relatively cheaper the closer but smaller. They decided to build barricades on the residential sections of the border to keep people from this neighborhood from driving through. They blamed the city side for their rising crime rate but blacks on the border had the final say. There was a meeting, a big one, and talk about being thrown under the bus at full speed. They talked about the people on this side like garbage despite having comparable incomes, homeownership, schools, commercial centers, and civic actvity. I didn't go but my parents and neighbors did, I was in 1st grade. What I do know is that over the past 3 decades we and the similar suburb have enjoyed a mutually beneficial relationship while the other is in decline. Or how about the blacks who migrated from the south to the northern cities in the 40s and 50s. Northern blacks treated blacks from the south like pariahs despite their children being better educated and starting businesses that provided commercial stability while the percieved black "middle class" were working in factories and for city- like the black immigrants who would came later in the 70s. Imagine what they expected from these "hicks" when the lay offs started? Jobs, discounts, rides, and a solidarity they weren't given upon arrival. This is what comes to mind when I think of blacks and this topic. I tried the authentic class approach and missed the mark but not as much as I thought. My position is based on the lack consistency in arguments made and knowing the issue is more personal than social.
Regarding class--every year, around this time of the year ,the husband and I think about this very question, as we prepare our taxes. We have to ask ourselves, will the IRS charge us more in taxes? We work hard, we earn pretty decent salaries, we live in a nice suburb, and then we have to worry that the government will pick our pockets to pass it along to "Trashy Tracy" or "Shenaynay and em." We save our money because we have goals in mind; we are planning ahead for the future, and we can then be set back because of goverment policies to support people who like the idea of having babies they can't afford and picking up a check for it. See this as an example: http://www.breitbart.tv/homeless-lady-with-15-kids-somebody-needs-to-pay-for-all-my-children/ I like the Chris Rock video, "black people and n's," in that I have relatives who still live in big cities who have to see and deal with "n's" around them. Shudder, shudder, shudder!
Ok you guys. Somebody posted this in another thread and I wanted anyone who wanted to read the prologue/intro to the book and you will see exactly what I have been talking about. Pay attention to when he says about nobody liking the class issue.
Some years ago, I met one of these families over seas. They had to have been some of the sweetest people I had ever met and good gawd were they rich and had been for a very, very long time. While I am sure that they have their share of snobs, my contact with these old-black money families since then has been a very positive one.
I certainly don't want to blow any whistles on them, but I think those of us who hare Nouveau Riche certainly need to do some networking on our own and I personally think we do need some sort of spokespeople, and that is something these types aren't comfy with. They like their invisibility. I'm only so-so with it. But that's just me.
Peace
We only need to look at the RHOA or Basketball Wives to know that class has absolutely nothing to do with money.
"As far as I am concerned, if you are not practicing my ancestors values and living worthy of your heritage, then you are not my people."
Ding ding ding ding ding! Love it.
Patricia Kayden Ditto!
This is not a lower class issue. Sure you can go to schol and get your degrees and still be the most ignorant person to walk the earth. Its all about your upbringing and mentality. Not all the people in the hood are ignorant/welfare queens/ thugs. Right now there are people living below poverty level who are actively looking to change their situation in life. These people dont want to live with thugs and gangsters but their socio-economic status will not allow them but its not like they are stagnant, they are making efforts towards it. In the same vein, i have come across some of the most ignorant professional black people. Sure they have houses and drive nice cars but they are not enlightened. Its one thing to get an education, its another to actually be enlightened and open minded. Lets not demonize lower class people. your money or lack there of is not an indicator of class.
So we can say class is not an educational issue. Someone in your class will share your values.
I don't think class necessarily refers to money. These are the traits that I think high class people have: The ability to speak properly, the ability to manage your finances, a high value on education (not only formal education, but a desire to learn in all situations), a belief in hard work, the ability to control your own reproduction and the abliilty to control your temper among other similar things. These things tend to lead to having more money, but they can be present in people who don't have a lot of money.
Afrostyling Hey there. When I say class, I do not mean economic class only. I am also referring to the value systems and that goes along with it. I mean SOCIAL class, not economic bracket. Hope that helps. Take care.
Excellent question! I've been called classist so many times, I lost count. I refuse to associate with people who engage in reckless behavior, even if they are black
Hi all,
This article spoke to me, but I think in a different way than most. I'm Canadian, but my parents are West Indian (Jamaica and Trinidad), and believe you me, class is alive and well amongst West Indians, so it actually never occurred to me that classism couldn't or didnt' happen in the black community. I find it odd that the original letter writer says that she (?) "opted out" of the black community, if only because I have follow up questions - which black community? Her immediate surroundings or the entire Black American community? I'm asking these questions, perhaps ignorantly, because, as has been stated numerously and correctly, "black community" is so varied. I don't share in my African Canadian "community" (people from Zaire, Nigeria, and Cote D'Ivoire) or in my Scotian community (black Canadians, descendants from slaves and loyalists), as to me, they are different. Yes, we are all black, but to most black Canadians of varied descent, we know our differences, embrace them, laugh at them, and are even angered by them. Classism is something that I automatically associate with my Caribbean people, which is why I found this article highly interesting. Keep up the great debates!!
maygem This is a great question. When I refer to the Black Community, I am referring to a system of thought not a group of people. I am referring to a mentality and value system that most people who identify with the Black Community ascribe to that I do not. I was referring as well to the fact that if you are a Black American you are automatically assumed to share in this system of thought and that is a problem. Hope that helped.
Peace
blackwomanalive I can see why this train of thought is a problem, especially if we only associate "Black" with the ills of society - now we have a chicken vs egg situation - what came first, the ghettoisation (sp?) of Black culture, or an embrace of all that is ill within the larger black community? Thank you for the clarification!
So true. Montreal here. Trini descent. Amazing I am seeing many of you here.
No matter your race, religion, or national origin the world is still full of cliques that want to label and organize you. As a wm who spent years living in the deep south I was often cajoled and ridiculed (even got into a fight in a Wal-Mart parking lot once) because I didn't worship NASCAR. I hate football and American lagers (think Bud, Michelob, etc) are flavorless piss so I don't fit in with that crowd either.
Having lived all over the US it's amazing to see the differences in cultural expectations each location places on the individual.
In general, I think that black people are more critical of their own race than anyone else. We become angry at people who fit stereotypes because we struggle with avoiding stereotypes in our daily lives. I think that being in a minority group leads to feeling like we're under a spotlight, so our behavior becomes that much more important and up for criticism (from within and outside). I dont think people of other races are as critical of each other. People of other races can separate themselves by class, but we have a history with dealing with success and privilege (crabs in a barrel). And it goes both ways, poor black people are quick to throw around the term "sell out," and not-so-poor black people us the term "ghetto" to describe anything not classy.
Does anyone remember Chris Rock's "black people vs. niggas" joke? It was hilarious because people could relate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4
NoDramaCiCi I remember that Chris Rock bit. Sometimes the truth is as funny as it is sad.
OH My! This person is SO ON POINT. Well said WELL SAID!! MySmile Said something on point too "I think the problem is that there is a difference between associating with like minded people and just being a flat out snob." Wanting better does not make people snobs, acting superior does.
What I am tired of is blacks giving other blacks a hard time when opportunities arise for them to do better and they take it. Rza from the Wu Tang Clan used the money from his portion of his groups CD sales and his acting gigs to buy a house in nicer neighborhood for him and his son, he got flack from blacks for selling out. and his response was, "What is wrong with me wanting to move my son to a better area where gunshots are not a common sound to hear and I do not have to worry about him getting shot by a stray bullet??"There is a guy out here in California who goes by the name of "Tommy the Clown" he has a clown troupe that performs all over the country. Every grant or donation he get goes back into the troupe so he can employ kids from the neighborhood. He could have moved to a better area but he chose to stay close to where he grew up and how did "his peoples" thank him? they ransacked his modest little house looking for money. He was devastated and I think he moved out of the area and I do not blame him.
There are some people who stay to try to help, but those who don't want to work to do better find it easier to steal from or tear down those who have more than what they have. Alot of blacks when they get more leave because they do not want to deal with people who don't want to better themselves and want to tear down those who do. I met someone who became wealthy who wanted to go back to their neighborhood and create a program to help those that lived there learn about finance and investing, 99% of them poo poohed it, they finally stopped trying, most of the people there seemed to like their misery. I have found that many of our people (not all) for some reason complain about not having better opportunities but when those opportunites do come along and they find they have to put forth some effort, they don't want to participate.
Daphne Rose I'm glad you liked my message. Yea, I don't see how wanting to keep your son safe is selling out! People are ridiculous! Do they think he should risk his family's life just for street cred? Pshhh! Yea right! About the second story, some people will always complain no matter what you do for them. Honestly, some black people in inner city communities are lazy. I won't say the majority because a lot of people just fall on hard times or experience a series of life events that lead them into poverty. I mean, we all get lazy sometimes, but come on now. Some people act like they can't even put on a proper outfit for a job interview and then wonder why they're unemployed. I've heard of people wearing skinny jeans and Jordans to interviews...I actually saw a girl come to my job to interview with a silk scarf-the kind you put on your head at night-on..I guess she had something more important to do afterwards and she couldn't ruin her hair! lol even if it is retail..come on now!!
Plus, poverty seems to be a vicious cycle. Most of the people I knew from low income, single parent homes had parents who were raised the same way. Many times they end up repeating the cycle. Sometimes all you need is that one person to break the cycle and they will set a new standard for their children and generations to come.
I believe this is because a black person is seen as the poster child for "the struggle"..almost everything that is wrong with America in general, you can find in black areas of town. Whether the problem is bad schools, poverty, institutional racism, or simply being outcast by other blacks for being different...many successful black people (and people in general) have had to overcome something to get to where they are. I have also heard a saying that goes, "Don't hate on where I am now because you don't know what I had to go through to get there." The reality is that a lot of successful black people worked extremely hard to get there. Most people in general are not born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Even those like myself, who were born into a middle class (lower middle class depending on the year) two parent home were raised to work hard and earn what we wanted. A lot of other black people like to treat you like you don't deserve to be where you are (because you're still "one of them"). They equate being black with spending your whole life struggling. I'm not where I want to be..but I'm on the path to get there. I don't know about the rest of them, but I refuse to spend my whole life as broke as I am now lol.
I think the problem is that there is a difference between associating with like minded people and just being a flat out snob. I will have conversations with all kinds of people (people I can look up to, homeless people, people doing absolutely nothing with their lives) and help them out if I can and feel like they won't take advantage...BUT I will not choose to be best friends with someone with a lifestyle that doesn't fit with mine. If I know a girl who gets high all the time...I will say hey to her and ask her how she's doing..maybe even laugh at her jokes, but I won't be the one up there getting high with her. I have things to do. If somebody wants to say I'm whitewashed for that then so be it. I can choose not to participate in certain activities and still be down to earth. Like many have said, blacks are a very diverse group of people...They can cut my black card up because black cards are usually only rewarded for negative behavior.
Is this really about class?
zabeth
You bring up a good point. I for one seem to have cultural differences with many blacks here in the States. Most of the black bloggers seem to be very liberal on a number of issues and I don;t seem to share many of their views. However I think there is a real divide between the high achieving blacks and the begging welfare minded blacks. That to me, seems to be a class issue.
kiki100 I don’t think that the issues that the poster brought up are about class, I think it’s more about culture and lifestyle which aren’t necessarily related to class.
zabethkiki100 Exactly. Its not even a class issue at all. Its culture and mentality.
Claps!!! I've always believed this, to me culture is practicing the values, traditions, language, the things we DON'T know. Black Americans don't really know who they are, we just live by what happend in the past, some because that's all the know others they refuse to believe there are other ways. I've always been judged for living different, by this point I really don't care.
Mimi_Love I know who I am. I am an American
kiki100Toni_M It used to be when blacks had to live in the same neighborhoods you were proud of the professionals and gave them your business and they serviced the areas they lived in. That changed after a while when some blacks thought they should be given a handout. These professionals saw the writing on the wall and knew things were getting bad for some black people and moved away to ensure their survival as professionals as well as personal citizens. People do not have to willingly become targets.
This is common sense. I remember when only the truly homeless would panhandle now there are con artist who do this and drive better cars than some of us. I am leery of some of these homeless advocates and their agendas. They want to place homeless in abandoned houses due to the mortgage crisis. Hell No! Some of these people are mentally ill and need to be monitored and cannot be trusted to not destroy personal property. Keep the rightful owners in their homes and continue giving the real homeless apts, rooms in shelters etc...until they get back on their feet.
Bellydancerkiki100Toni_M "It used to be when blacks had to live in the same neighborhoods you were proud of the professionals and gave them your business and they serviced the areas they lived in. That changed after a while when some blacks thought they should be given a handout. These professionals saw the writing on the wall and knew things were getting bad for some black people and moved away to ensure their survival as professionals as well as personal citizens. "
Technically this is not true. Segregation was a HUGE reason why professionals lived in a lot of low income neighborhoods. They didn't have a choice. It wasn't uncommon to see someone like Aretha Franklin living down the street after selling out shows in a Detroit neighborhood while the temptations living around the corner.
when I was growing up..my family would always be concerned about any news on Tv...first question especially if it was a crime...(I hope they are not black)..I heard that so many times...I started to guess by the crime if they are black or other....but I let all that go when I reached my late 20's everyone has the right..to be happy for anyone they identify with...but if your acting like an A@#....don't call me or look at me for back up...I won't standup for you for some crazy mess...like...he/she jumped in front of me in the Funnel cake line...its time to go H.A.M....naw not me...
I went to a blog ( I will post the link if I find it) where all the blacks were basically saying how dare blacks leave the ghetto for the suburbs. Don't they know racism is in the burbs. 'You;re still a nigger you know". I was shocked at the amount of them that all seemed to be on the same page. It was pathetic.
Not every black person shares culture. This is made more difficult by the fact that these low-lifes in the black community will take credit for individual blacks success even when that individual didn’t even grow up with community indoctrination.
That's a really good point.
And speaking of that check this out ...A low class black decrying and upper clas black for not giving him a handout.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEuaKXFkaBE&feature=player_embedded
kiki100 I don't even know if I can watch it as I already feel all sorts of second hand embarrassment at the notion.
Toni, I just saw his response. OMG. I told you. The typical hater. He blocks then name calls. Never did he address your comment.And yes he does want a handout.
kiki100 I wrote a reply and I imagine it won't be long before it's deleted.
Toni_Mkiki100
Oh yes Toni, it will be deleted. This loser black male named harveysuperboy deletes/blocks any comment that challenge him.
kiki100 Typical.
EvilFrenchFries I myself have to try and get out of the "claiming" mindset because that success-by-proxy nonsense does not motivate. Just because so-and-so is black and did this does not mean I myself have accomplished anything. It may help ease stereotypes as to what is possible for me regarding race and gender, but that would mean nothing unless I got around to actually achieving it for myself.
Toni_MEvilFrenchFries Wow. That was a great comment!
I saw some of it. I had to stop eventually. Couldn't finish it. Now I did kinda have issue with Oparah about the whole African school thing but.....it's her money. And besides, black kids here have free education and all sorts of asisstance that those kids won't have and it ain't up to O to do black parents' job. *shrugs*
I also took issue with what he said about no black person getting anywhere without another black person and with the exception of those in my immediate family, that wasn't true for us! And I can't believe he gave rappers any kind of credit. Just delusional this guy.
blackwomanalive
Which is exactly why O went to SA. Further more hasn't she done far enough here in the US? I never though I would see the day when a black person would be mad at another black person for helping black people. smh
The thing of it is, I don't want to be classist; I want to be *classy*. Classy in my mind means having manners, carrying myself with dignity and common sense, pursuing higher education and an optimal lifestyle. It means having good taste and a zest for quality life.
This is what most people strive for. The problem isn't that blacks aren't allowed to strive for these things; some do and with gusto. It's the mentality involved in either the decision to want better or the decision to guilt others out of wanting better.
Some persons have "special negro syndrome" where they base their entire desire to excel around being patted on the head by white bigots for not being like "the other blacks". Where as you or I would take issue with that, it becomes a shiny gold star for these backward folks, who then turn around and try to discourage or hold back other blacks because they want to be special, and if successful upstanding blacks were the norm, they wouldn't be getting their shiny gold stars.
Others have no desire to get ahead, at least not off of their own power. They will use any excuse or justification to stay in the mud, and because of good old "crabs in a barrel" do not want others geting ahead of them. It's comfortable at the bottom. If too many people try and get away from the bottom, they may be forced to face their questionable life decisions. That's less of a worry when this do-nothing mentality is encouraged.
And then you have folks who honestly believe that "we all need to stick together because otherwise whitey will destroy us!" and have encouraged an air of absolute tolerance for any and every form of bull crap. From the normalization of criminality and expectation that a number of black men will go to jail at least once (for decisions that are no fault of their own. It's just the "plan of the man".), that selling drugs and pimping young girls is to be emulated and admired, and not detested. Basically this crazy glue insanity has caused us to cling to garbage even harder than to cling to achievement.
I hear this garbage from people that I know, and to be honest, I'm tired of it. I have no patience for low-minded, dangerous, self-serving leeches, and I have no desire to lower myself to make my existence relatable to such persons.
Toni_M ' "special negro syndrome" '
SPECIAL LADY - Ray, Goodman & Brown
http://youtu.be/BcS0alN5bHo
lady = negro
"And then you have folks who honestly believe that "we all need to stick together because otherwise whitey will destroy us!" and have encouraged an air of absolute tolerance for any and every form of bull crap."
This reminds me of those old BP activists who now enjoy comfortable suburban homes and college tenures. What's even worse is how they'll discourage other blacks from wanting the same. Toni_M
Toni_M I cannot tell you how many jobs I and others have been on and the blacks there have a victim type of mentality and side eye anybody who comes and gets promoted or works harder then them and who is given special recognition for their efforts. I used to work for christmas every year at retail stores doing stock and had an older bw get mad at me because i cleared her stock room down of items they needed for the floor. This woman actually told me" don't work so fast cuz I ain't trying to do all that' I just kept working at my pace and kept it moving. The supervisor would come in and look in on us and she and the other woman would be talking about moving slow. You know 2 weeks before chritmas they want everything on the floor.
I remember in school people would want to copy my work and I would purposely try to sit near the front so that would not be happening. Some people want something for nothing and when called out on it they get defensive.
I remember the blogger now it was Black Women Blow The Trumpet that talked about the black elite.
Bellydancer I had no problem sharing notes if someone was sick or forgot their book - so long as they asked. But that copying and cheating because you're too lazy to do your own work? Oh no, not happening. It is almost funny though thinking about people getting mad at you for not allowing yourself to be taken advantage of.
And LOL at that woman not wanting you to do your job because she wasn't trying to do hers. Oh, brother.
Toni_MBellydancer Exactly. In middle and high school, people would always try to cheat on me or copy my homework because they didn't do theirs. Also, people would always ask me for pencils and paper and not return them. They would have the nerve to get annoyed if I was hesitant about lending them something. These were the SAME people asking me for basic school supplies almost every day. They had a pair of Jordans on their feet but they couldn't afford a notebook? Meanwhile, I had one pair of tennis shoes for the whole year lol. What kind of people don't go to school with the basic supplies??!!!
Toni_M I see what you are saying and in response to you and Marcie, perhaps a better word than "classism" is "social/economic/cultural hierarchy or stratification"(?)
I certainly don't mean any ill will towards anyone who finds themselves in a less desirable position and certainly wouldn't do anything to keep them from joining ranks with those who have already arrived but I also don't believe that we should be judged as being the same kind of people with the same values.
blackwomanalive Oh no, I understand. It's just that "classism"" can be a VERY touchy subject. There is an "ism" involved after all. I wanted to clarify my point of view.
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Question of the Week: Why Aren’t Black Folks Allowed to Be Classist?
Why can whites, Asians, and Hispanics be classist and separate themselves from their ethnic riff raff, and if black folks do it, their called “sell outs?”
Author : Christelyn Karazin
Author's Website | Articles from Christelyn KarazinI got the idea to ask this question from a comment I read:
This person makes an excellent point. Why can whites, Asians, and Hispanics be classist and separate themselves from their ethnic riff raff, and if black folks do it, they’re called “sell outs?”