WARNING!!! If you like having multiple casual sex partners, are happy with that, and like that society accepts that, then this post is NOT for you. If you are a feminist this post is not for you. PLEASE skip it.
If you don’t want to have causal sex with multiple partners, feel pressure to do so, may have even done so and regretted it later, and you think it’s harder now to get into monogamous relationships, then this post may help you feel more confident in saying “NO”.
This CNN video may shed some light on the context of this post…but then again maybe not.
Social Norms and Sexual Norms
What women do with their privates is no one else’s business and it doesn’t harm anyone as long as the sex is consensual and safe right? I disagree. I think some people are oblivious to the fact that there are sexual norms (it’s intro social psychology and sociology). Sometimes these people even propose that basically anything sexual is normal as long as it’s consensual. They don’t realize that they are establishing the new sexual norm of ‘anything goes and everything is okay’ and that there is something ‘abnormal’ about you if you think otherwise.
“Social Norms are the expectations about how people should act. Usually social norms are created by having the same sort of certain behaviors among social group members. Also, there are usually negative consequences when someone violates a social norm…Norms do serve a purpose, as they allow people to expect the events that will occur in a particular setting. This allows people to prepare themselves for being in that situation. Uncertainty is a big source of psychological stress. Norms allow us to reduce the uncertainty that we might otherwise feel in a situation, or leading up to a situation if we knew nothing about how that situation would unfold.”(source; also see Wikipedia definition)
In other words, once a norm for promiscuity is set, both men and women will come to expect it and many will conform to it. In the past it was only men and promiscuous women saying sex was fun, it’s no big deal etc. and it was easier to say no because they advocated out of self-interest. You see, saying it’s okay to be promiscuous, women should not be judged or shamed, and that some women enjoy the activity with no ill effects is one thing. But when an ideological group, Third Wave feminists, state sleeping around is empowered, that it helps women figure out what they like in bed, or it shows they are not repressed by the patriarchy, then that’s a different story. It’s associating promiscuity with positive things that many women want because they want to be empowered, satisfied with sex, and not slaves to men. When Third Wave feminists (who some women identify with, respect, and trust are looking out for their best interests) imply that being promiscuous has these benefits, women may start questioning themselves and start sleeping around against their better judgement. Some women assume that feminists are not advocating sexual practices for ideological self-interest while disregarding the affect these practices have on individual women–they just want what’s best for you right? “”Feminism is not the freedom to act like a dickhead,”…”These women are individualists, not feminists” (source). They don’t care that hold outs may experience prude-shaming by women implying that they are repressed, frigid, too uptight, too old fashioned, insecure, not giving their bodies what they want, missing out, not free thinkers, something is wrong with them, or they won’t be able to keep a man (similar to the things men say to coerce women into having sex..hmmm).
For example, if most women sleep with men on the first date then that becomes the norm, and men will pressure other women to “be normal” and have sex on the the first date. This in turn will confirm and perpetuate the norm. Feminists supporting promiscuity makes it that much harder to hold out. Personally, I’m more concerned about protecting abstainers from pressure than about hurting the feelings (i.e., shaming or judging) of people who knew the risks, ignored the warnings, and went full steam ahead anyway. “Norms can be self-perpetuating, as once they are established they will often continue, even when those who established them have long since left the situation” (source). So if promiscuous women get married (maybe even by lying to their husbands about their sex number), get old, or stop dating, then other single women are left with the norm! Future generations will suffer because of other women’s actions and many young girls are already caving to the pressure.
Elegacne I am going to let you do all the thinking for me. can you start a dear elegance blog
There is the public sphere and there is the private sphere. What is normal behavior in my private life may or may not be normal in my public life. When I go in to work, I don’t care about my co-workers private life–whether they have or choose to remain celibate; how many times they have been married; how many abortions they may or may not have had; whether or not they use to be promiscuous. I dress differently at work than I do lounging around at home. I expect my boyfriend to treat me less formally than I would expect my boss to treat me. There has always been a differentiation between the public and the private spheres and, hopefully, there always will be, because a world in which everything anyone does has to be publicly sanctioned sounds mighty close to being a dictatorship.
” Usually, social/cultural constructs are made by people in power, typically white, middle/upper class heterosexual men” (source). Makes you wonder why feminists are supporting the same promiscuity that is supported by many men for women they don’t plan to marry.”
That makes no sense. White middle- and upper-class men are more likely than virtually all other groups–besides perhaps Asians–to get married and to stay married.
“What other women do in bed is my business if the men I meet are holding these women up as examples of what is “normal” and pressuring me to be normal.”
1. Stop dating men who you feel are pressuring you to do things you don’t want to do.
2. Say “no” when you mean “no” and only say “yes” when you mean “yes”. Any women saying “yes” when she wants to say “no” has deeper issues/problems going on than just unwarranted anger at feminists.
@Jamila I would like to add that if a woman says NO even after she has said yes, then everything needs to stop. There is an unwritten rule in rape culture that treats the initiation of sex like a binding contract and if a woman feels that she doesn’t want to continue she can’t stop because she’s already agreed to sex. This idea creeps me the hell out.
@Jamila
”
” Usually, social/cultural constructs are made by people in power, typically white, middle/upper class heterosexual men” (source). Makes you wonder why feminists are supporting the same promiscuity that is supported by many men for women they don’t plan to marry.”
That makes no sense. White middle- and upper-class men are more likely than virtually all other groups–besides perhaps Asians–to get married and to stay married. ”
It means, men support promiscuity in women they are not interested in marrying, They don’t like their chosen girlfriends of wives to have promiscuous pasts. So I don’t understand why women would support doing something that men endorse to use women (even if the women enjoy it) but use against those same women when it comes to having a long term relationship.
“Any women saying “yes” when she wants to say “no” has deeper issues/problems going on than just unwarranted anger at feminists.”
Maybe. I tend to care more about those women than the one’s who feel secure about their decisions. I’m more concerned about those who are vulnerable. They matter too and should not be written off.
“1. Stop dating men who you feel are pressuring you to do things you don’t want to do.”
Yes of course. It’s annoying though when you have to dump man after man after man because of this. You start to wonder why they all keep doing. And no, I am not doing something to encourage it either other than being nice and looking good.
Question: Do you believe that sexual norms exist and have any influence on people? Do you believe in sociology or social psychology?
@Elegance “It means, men support promiscuity in women they are not interested in marrying, They don’t like their chosen girlfriends of wives to have promiscuous pasts. So I don’t understand why women would support doing something that men endorse to use women (even if the women enjoy it) but use against those same women when it comes to having a long term relationship. ”
1. I have never seen any surveys that supported the idea that married women are less likely to have a promiscuous past than unmarried women. .
2. So, because men like having sex with women who use birth control, women who use birth control so that they don’t become pregnant should stop using it because men also like for women to use birth control? If women think an idea is a good one, it doesn’t suddenly become a bad idea just because misogynists think the same idea is good. I like red; a woman I can’t stand also likes red. Should I stop liking red because someone I don’t like also happens to like the same color ? .
” It’s annoying though when you have to dump man after man after man because of this. You start to wonder why they all keep doing.”
You have to start vetting men better. I don’t have this problem. The men that I date don’t even attempt to pressure me into having sex sooner than I would like. Of course, men normally want to have sex sooner than women, but as far as actually being pressured? No, I don’t experience that. And you shouldn’t be experiencing it either.
“Question: Do you believe that sexual norms exist and have any influence on people?”
Yes, I do. I also believer that there are so many different social groups which one can choose to belong to nowadays–each group with their own norms–that if one group is wrong for you then you can easily choose another. Right now I have a friend who married her husband in an arranged marriage; they married six months after meeting (and they ‘met’ via phone). She decided to marry him after 3 or 4 months of talking to him on the phone, never even saw him before she agreed to marry him. Since I reside on a college campus, there are also people here who are involved in hookup culture.
I say find your niche and stick with it. Rather than trying to stop other people from engaging in behavior you want no part of, seek out like-minded people who feel and act the same way you do.
@Jamila
“1. I have never seen any surveys that supported the idea that married women are less likely to have a promiscuous past than unmarried women.’
True. But there have been studies asking men what they value in a partner and the type of women they prefer for long term relationships and marriage. The question is asked to men, not women.
Question 2…okay?
“You have to start vetting men better…No, I don’t experience that. And you shouldn’t be experiencing it either. ”
I vet them fine. That’s why I didn’t sleep with them. I really don’t understand why people keep saying that. Is there not a period of time where you don’t know a guy well, find out something about him, then dump him after that? Are you saying you know just by looking at a guy for the first time that he’s going to be fast (I mean a guy who doesn’t look like an obvious player)? I get to know the guy, find out about them, then dump them…is that not vetting?
So because you don’t experience guys pressuring you for sex then that makes you “the norm” and there must be something wrong with me? You may not experience it, but I and many other women do. I also don’t get this with every guy I meet but more than I would have expected.
“I also believer that there are so many different social groups which one can choose to belong to nowadays–each group with their own norms–that if one group is wrong for you then you can easily choose another.”
Really? Ok. I like my niche, I just don’t like the members of that niche who like casual sex. I doubt there is a niche of men who where none ever try to get casual sex. Unless it’s some religious group or something or they are from a strict culture that does not allow it…but then they would disqualify me anyway.
“Rather than trying to stop other people from engaging in behavior you want no part of, seek out like-minded people who feel and act the same way you do. ”
Can we please stop with the “trying to stop” and “policing” talk. This is an opinion piece and has no Godly or government power to stop or police anyone. I don’t go around in my real life seeking out promiscuous women,arresting and lecturing them. Almost all communication is for the purpose of influencing others and this piece is no different. But words are words and my words are not uniquely powerful and I have the right to voice my opinion.
@Elegance “But there have been studies asking men what they value in a partner and the type of women they prefer for long term relationships and marriage. The question is asked to men, not women.”
But unless there is some evidence indicating that men actually act on this preference–that they actually marry or have LTR’s with less promiscuous women at higher rates–then my point still stands. There is no evidence indicating that promiscuous women are less likely to get married or have LTR’s than virgins, regardless of men’s stated preferences. I want to know if the preferences of men actually has a real effect on whether or not a woman gets married.
“I vet them fine. That’s why I didn’t sleep with them. I really don’t understand why people keep saying that.”
Because you are the one who said that you have to dump guy after guy because they are pressuring you for sex. Some women are experiencing your problem; some women are not. What are the women who are NOT experiencing this problem doing that is different from what you are doing?
“Unless it’s some religious group or something or they are from a strict culture that does not allow it…but then they would disqualify me anyway.”
It seems as if you have a very specific niche: Guys who want sex but are willing to wait a long ass time for it. That’s a very small niche. There might even be more men who are willing to get married before having sex than there are men who want sex before marriage but want to wait a long time for it to begin happening
@Jamila @Elegance I also think this is an issue of mingling with the right people. I think if you’re around more quality men you won’t have this problem, and it doesn’t sound like you’re around many quality men. You say:
“Ok. I like my niche, I just don’t like the members of that niche who like casual sex. I doubt there is a niche of men who where none ever try to get casual sex. Unless it’s some religious group or something or they are from a strict culture that does not allow it…but then they would disqualify me anyway.”
If you are interested in waiting for sex, then how are men interested in casual sex part of your niche? It does sound like there are men out there in your niche but perhaps they aren’t the type of man you’re attracted to or feel that they would automatically disqualify you, maybe that’s the bigger issue.
@Jamila
“Because you are the one who said that you have to dump guy after guy because they are pressuring you for sex. Some women are experiencing your problem; some women are not. What are the women who are NOT experiencing this problem doing that is different from what you are doing? ”
Okay, I’ll go there. Some guys find some women sexier than others. Some men are aroused more by some women than others. Halle Berry is probably used to it because she gets men hot. Some men also have higher sex drives than others. Good looking guys are used to getting sex easier and maybe other women are getting good looking guys who are great catches and expect sex easier.
I don’t think waiting 2-3 months to have sex is long. You are assuming it is a “long ass time”. I also don’t think it’s wrong to wait until the guys is actually monogamous and committed to me (i.e., not sleeping with 4 other girls with me in the rotation. Maybe it is becoming a specific niche now…but it wasn’t in the past.
@zabeth @Jamila
Excuse me Zabeth. I am around high quality men so please everyone get off it. Do you think high quality men don’t try to get sex or something?
For the last time. My niche is : university educated, white collar professionals, who have jobs, have their own place, can afford to pay for every date, with no criminal records, no babies, single, nice, good looking and cute, 30-43, who are willing to date Black women. These are architects, doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, Ph.D., financial analysts, HR managers etc. If by niche you mean the men I hang out with then no, there are no men in my niche, I hang out with women.
Do you expect there to not be any men in that large group who are not just looking for sex at a particular time in their lives? Maybe they are on the rebound, maybe they are trying to get sex while they wait 2-3 months for their chosen woman? Any kind of man can be up for casual sex.
I don’t understand why this post about sex norms is turning into arguments that I don’t know how to vet men. This is really getting off topic.
@Elegance @Jamila Of course career choice/profession does not automatically mean quality. Number two, you put yourself out there specifically talking about the men you’re meeting and the ones you have to readily dump. It makes me think of this post:
“If people want to find your flaws, they’ll do so. There’s no sense in helping them out. Always do your best to present yourself as the It Girl.”
http://www.platinumgirlcelebrityblog.com/2013/01/annasophia-robb-says-boys-never-hit-on.html
@zabeth @Jamila
“Number two, you put yourself out there specifically talking about the men you’re meeting and the ones you have to readily dump.”
Then I’m asking you to stop it now. Please respect that. Can a mod please say something about these derailing comments?
@Elegance @Jamila I’m sorry, if you can’t find ANY man willing to wait 2-3 months to have sex you need to make better choices in men.
@Jamila”There is the public sphere and there is the private sphere” – now, take the ‘L’ out.
Sexually speaking, since the beginning of time men and women have been engaging in casual sex regardless of whether its considered acceptable. Or if they’re seen as role models to other people. Today it has become more mainstream. But everyone doesn’t think this way. Its better to focus on people who share the same values as you, then to try to change and police strangers behavior. There will always be people who are seen as role models who willingingly objectify themselves for money. And who don’t care how that affects the younger generation. You can advise today’s youth with alternative role models that do not objectify themselves for money. You can advise people on the double standards men have with women when it comes to sex. And advise women about how to be responsible with sex. But that is all you can do. They may or may not take your advice. You can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do. You can advise them about an alternative sexual lifestyle. But you can’t tell strangers what to do. Trying to police strangers sex lives. Asking strangers to change their sexual behavior is impossible. People will always do what they want regardless of what others think about them. If you feel someone is pressuring you to do something you don’t want to do. Find someone else who shares the same values as you. Because people are going to do what they want regardless if others don’t like it. People should focus on their own standards and values and stop worrying about what ‘Society’ is doing and how its affecting their relationship.
@kia “Trying to police strangers sex lives. Asking strangers to change their sexual behavior is impossible. People will always do what they want regardless of what others think about them. If you feel someone is pressuring you to do something you don’t want to do. Find someone else who shares the same values as you. Because people are going to do what they want regardless if others don’t like it. People should focus on their own standards and values and stop worrying about what ‘Society’ is doing and how its affecting their relationship.” <<< ALL OF THIS!
@zabeth @kia Just asking this question–If a wide scope of people are participating in a certain behavior, doesn’t that reduce the pool of people *not* doing those behaviors, therefore, less men available that have your values?
@Christelyn @zabeth @kia
“Just asking this question–If a wide scope of people are participating in a certain behavior, doesn’t that reduce the pool of people *not* doing those behaviors, therefore, less men available that have your values?”
Yes! It changes the sexual norm. In the past it was easy to find men who were willing to wait. That was the norm so most men accepted that. Now that the norm is (or soon will be) casual sex, even without a date, without any commitment, it will be harder to find men willing to wait. Men who wait will be “abnormal” and hard to find.
@Christelyn @kia I’ll answer your question with a question, what are YOU going to do about it?
We can talk about how this is a problem all day long (and we probably will here) but the discussion really means nothing without offering any solutions. Of the billions of people on this planet are you going to be in everyone’s bedroom controlling their sexual decisions? All you really can do is live your own values. If you want to effect social change perhaps try talking to others about your values and why you feel they’re right but, ultimately you can’t change other people’s behaviors.
Moreover, if a man really wants you and has to have you he will do what he needs to do to in order to live up to your standards- even your standards about sex. Maybe its the case that a lot of women haven’t yet met the man that will do that for them.
Finally, I used to be in the exact same position- worried about what other women were doing and how they were “ruining” men for me. I was living in the land of lack (there aren’t enough good men, there aren’t enough men who share my values…lack, lack, lack). Then I realized how exhausting and depressing that was. The only person I can control in the matter is me. I can’t control men or other women. I can’t spend my life concerned with who millions of other people are sleeping with and what they decide to do together. So I turned m focus back on me.
I also wonder if this position keeps women in a state of victimhood and displeased with other women instead of being proactive about their romantic lives?
@zabeth @Christelyn @kia
“I’ll answer your question with a question, what are YOU going to do about it? ”
Nothing. I’ll just write about it, talk about it, and reject raunch culture and promiscuity. When I have kids I will teach them to reject it too. I’m not planning to start an activist group 🙂
“We can talk about how this is a problem all day long (and we probably will here) but the discussion really means nothing without offering any solutions. ”
The solution is to stop sleeping around with dudes who don’t care about you and stop being raunchy. It’s cool, try it 🙂
I don’t spend my life concerned with who millions of people sleep with. I just write a few blog posts and make comments for fun. You ladies don’t actually think I spend all day curled up in a ball crying over this do you? Lol! It doesn’t interfere with my dating life, other than when I have to dump fast or pervy guys. Trust me, it’s not that serious.
@Elegance @Christelyn @kia “The solution is to stop sleeping around with dudes who don’t care about you and stop being raunchy. It’s cool, try it 🙂 ”
I actually find that comment quite insulting, but anyway. Moreover, you’ve written several posts and had several discussions about this very topic, so I would infer that this is quite serious to you.
@zabeth @Christelyn @kia
Please stop inferring things and comment on what was written in the post. Please, please listen to me when I say this was not supposed to be a post about me. It’s about the ideas posted above on sexual norms, male identification, and raunch feminism. Inferences about me derail the topic IMMENSELY.
@Elegance @Christelyn Didn’t you JUST make inferences about me?
@zabeth @Christelyn
“Didn’t you JUST make inferences about me?’
Where?
@zabeth @Christelyn
“Didn’t you JUST make inferences about me?’
Where?
I hope you don’t mean, “”The solution is to stop sleeping around with dudes who don’t care about you and stop being raunchy. It’s cool, try it 🙂 ”
That wasn’t personal! You asked what the solution to the promiscuity problem was and that was my solution. I wasn’t inferring that you sleep around. I was talking about people in general.
@zabeth @Christelyn
WOMEN should stop sleeping around with dudes who don’t care about them and stop being raunchy. It’s cool, EVERYONE should try it 🙂
that was the intended comment.
@Elegance @zabeth @Christelyn @kia “You ladies don’t actually think I spend all day curled up in a ball crying over this do you? Lol! It doesn’t interfere with my dating life, other than when I have to dump fast or pervy guys. Trust me, it’s not that serious. ”
It does come off as you, specifically the author of the post, as having a long winded blog tantrum because you, the author of these posts, subconsciously feel threatened by the environment and ways in which other women are choosing to compete for mates. You can deny my accusation but I don’t believe I am alone in this observation. Slut walking, hook up sex, and casual relationships and what that means to black women is not what this article is about.
@Elegance @zabeth @Christelyn
The freedom to have sex with whomever you choose, for whatever reason you choose, when and where you choose, is pretty cool too.
EVERYONE should try it. 🙂
(Smiley faces make everything okay, you know.)
@Elegance @Christelyn @zabeth @kia
This is all kinds of convoluted.
Women shouldn’t have sex (with men) because it makes it harder for you to find a man. And those women should care that you can’t find a man, because… wait, why??
Not every woman who has pre-marital, or even casual sex with multiple partners is doing so due to proclamation from some Feminist Queen.
Not every woman who has casual sex is damaged, nor is every man indiscriminate, and unable to say “no.”
Also, what is your definition of promiscuous? How many partners make one promiscuous? And does it make a difference if these were 32 boyfriends vs. 18 one-night stands?
Not every so-called “promiscuous” woman who finds a partner or a husband got him due to her sexual wiles. Not unless they partnered with complete idiots. P-power can knock a man off of his feet for awhile, but “commitment” talk usually sobers him up. Give men more credit.
If I were a man, I’d be very offended by some of your comments, because they infer that men are incapable of making decisions that don’t involve their penises.
And, if men are out to just have sex with any woman who’s allowing them to have sex with her, but they DON’T want to be serious with her… wouldn’t that increase the pool of available men to marry once they are ready to settle down? After all, they won’t settle down with “raunchy” women, right?
I was very surprised to see that this became a separate blog post, given the fact that it was discussed at-length last week. It’s obviously a hot-button issue for you.
Respectfully, it does seem like your ire toward feminists is misdirected. Feminists are not responsible for your inability to find a man. A man who cares about you will work with you. He won’t just say “okay, bye.” When he hears that you won’t have sex or perform a particular sex act with him. “Bad women” did not ruin all of the “good men.”
Men want/ need love as much as women do. Some may pretend that they don’t because that’s how men “are supposed to be” (popular opinion – not mine), but when you watch them open up from the love of a good woman (whether “slut” or “prude”) … it’s a wonderful thing.
@zabeth @kia I believe my article is advising and informing. I’m not policing anyone. “People will always do what they want regardless of what others think about them.”
That’s totally debatable. You would have to ignore all the research about conformity, peer pressure, parental pressure, role modeling, social norms, etc. in order to believe that what others think has absolutely no affect on people. Research and personal experience says that this is not true.
You linked to a wikipedia article that states that raunch culture is undermining feminism, is antonymous with women’s empowerment, and is criticized by feminists, but then blame raunch culture on feminism? Have I missed something?
@Veron
Yeah, I noticed that too.
A long time ago I picked up Female Chauvinist Pigs by Ariel Levy but never got around to finishing it. A part of the editorial review on Amazon.com reads:
”
Levy cleverly leads us to explore the role models women aspire to emulate. We are not pursuing the confident, self-determined, powerful, free ideal the women’s liberation movement would have dreamed for its daughters. Instead, our icons are porn stars and strippers and prostitutes. Paris Hilton and Jenna Jameson flaunt their successes in the pornography industry, and in doing so seem to earn our adulation.
Levy relates our embracing of this raunchy culture to unresolved tensions thirty years ago between the sexual revolution and the women’s liberation movement, and amongst feminists; joy at discovering the delights of our clitoris conflicting with disgust at pornography’s objectification of women. She creates a convincing argument by analyzing a diverse spectrum of material; presents a fascinating palette of interviews with revolutionary women’s libbers, nouvelle raunchy feminists, and everyday women and men. Detailed facts and recurring names are sometimes cumbersome, albeit worth ploughing through for the ‘a-ha moments’.”
Also, here is one of the many links to feminists discussing the issue of putting naked women on the cover of magazines:
http://jezebel.com/5940681/gq-ran-out-of-clothes-for-its-woman-of-the-year
This piece misconstrued and manhandle so much about feminism that I decided to just leave most of it alone because it would take too much time to go through it point by point.
@Veron
Yeah, I noticed that too.
A long time ago I picked up Female Chauvinist Pigs by Ariel Levy but never got around to finishing it. A part of the editorial review on Amazon.com reads:
”
Levy cleverly leads us to explore the role models women aspire to emulate. We are not pursuing the confident, self-determined, powerful, free ideal the women’s liberation movement would have dreamed for its daughters. Instead, our icons are porn stars and strippers and prostitutes. Paris Hilton and Jenna Jameson flaunt their successes in the pornography industry, and in doing so seem to earn our adulation.
Levy relates our embracing of this raunchy culture to unresolved tensions thirty years ago between the sexual revolution and the women’s liberation movement, and amongst feminists; joy at discovering the delights of our clitoris conflicting with disgust at pornography’s objectification of women. She creates a convincing argument by analyzing a diverse spectrum of material; presents a fascinating palette of interviews with revolutionary women’s libbers, nouvelle raunchy feminists, and everyday women and men. Detailed facts and recurring names are sometimes cumbersome, albeit worth ploughing through for the ‘a-ha moments’.”
Also, here is one of the many links to feminists discussing the issue of putting naked women on the cover of magazines:
http://jezebel.com/5940681/gq-ran-out-of-clothes-for-its-woman-of-the-year
This piece misconstrued and manhandled so much about feminism that I decided to just leave most of it alone because it would take too much time to go through it point by point.
@Jamila @Veron
Yes I have heard about Ariel Levy’s book. I have read some positive reviews but also many negative reviews. Some feminists agree with her while others think she is totally wrong.
Just as you can find posts criticizing women being naked on magazine covers I can find those advocating women are nude more often (e.g., topless marches in Maine). There is no unified position. So I am focusing on those who support raunchiness.
@Elegance @Veron
“There is no unified position. So I am focusing on those who support raunchiness.”
So this is a post about raunchiness, not feminism?
@Jamila @Veron
“I think this all boils down to opposition to raunch feminism. This is that part of modern Third Wave feminism that condones women wearing next to nothing, getting huge tattoos, going topless, porn, stripping, prostitution, drinking till you are black out drunk, smoking, doing drugs, cursing, fighting, and sleeping around because those things are personal choices and we are supposed to celebrate that women are free to make these choices.”
@Veron
“You linked to a wikipedia article that states that raunch culture is undermining feminism, is antonymous with women’s empowerment, and is criticized by feminists, but then blame raunch culture on feminism? Have I missed something?”
Let me put it this way. Some feminists support raunch culture by saying it is empowering and letting women express their freedom. Women like myself and some other feminists say that raunch culture and raunch feminism is undermining feminism and pushing women away from their cause. Feminists do not agree about whether raunch culture is a good thing or a bad thing. There is no unified stance on the issue.
Yes I have heard of Ariel Levy and her book. I have also read criticisms of her book by other feminists basically calling her delusional. Just as you can find some people who are against raunch culture, I can find some who think it’s a good thing or no big deal.
On the other hand, a lot of men are pretty clear, they like promiscuous women for casual sex, but they don’t tend to want casual sex from those women. Most men are pretty turned off by raunchy women but of course there will be a minority who don’t care and actually like it.
@Elegance “Feminists do not agree about whether raunch culture is a good thing or a bad thing. There is no unified stance on the issue.”
If you can admit that there is no unified stance, then why are you assigning unified blame?
@Veron
“If you can admit that there is no unified stance, then why are you assigning unified blame?”
So feminists are blameless because some of them don’t support raunch feminism? No, the entire groups is to blame. The ones endorsing raunch feminism and promiscuity is to blame. The others in the group who call themselves feminists are also to blame because they are not doing enough to stop the raunch feminists. If you have a group and members of that group act up then the ENTIRE group is responsible. They are all using the same banner so they are all responsible and they need to create a unified stance on the issue.
@Elegance But feminism is not a group. Feminism is not PETA. It’s not an LLC. No one can own it, or lead it. It’s an ideology, a collection of ideas, a movement among many, with an extraordinary amount of variables. One woman’s feminism is another woman’s civil right’s movement, is another woman’s general state of mind. Unless there is a feminist headquarters somewhere, where the leaders of feminism are busy releasing memos to the collective, no one can say that one ideal applies to the mass.
“The others in the group who call themselves feminists are also to blame because they are not doing enough to stop the raunch feminists.”
This makes no sense. You are seriously talking like there is a feminist directory somewhere, and all feminist can call each other up. I’ve never heard of Adrienne Levy, but my quick google search of her presents her as a prominent feminist pretty adamantly opposing raunch culture. You’re implying that she is also to blame for it simply because she defines herself as feminist. Writing books disparaging raunch, speaking out against it, and otherwise being definitively against it is not enough to “stop” it, and therefore she’s a failure?
By that logic, should we be asking all civil rights advocates to call up their extremist black panther buddies and tell them to mend their ways. Or maybe ask all the king of the environmentalists to ask his cronies to stop chaining themselves to tractors. Or why don’t we ask who heads up the anarchists movement to stop who ever it is who keeps threatening to bomb buildings if Obama doesn’t step down from office, because they clearly know all about.
What you’re implying is illogical and impossible. You can’t define an ideology, and I personally don’t think that “raunch feminism” exists outside of you defining it as such. Raunch Culture is an issue in and of itself, and is a fair deeper cultural issue than the red herring of feminism.
@Veron
Lol, I did not make up the term “raunch feminism” Google it.
There are feminist groups, there are feminist organizations, and there are feminist blogs. These groups can make statements. They make statements all the time and they make protests. They stage worldwide parades (i.e., SlutWalk). So it’s not as though groups of feminists don’t come together to send the world a message and fight for things when they want to. Leaders of such groups can make statements.
Ariel Levey is ONE feminist. She is the only one I have heard about who is opposing raunch feminism. I’m not hearing much from the others. I hear them saying Lady Gaga is a great feminist role model instead.
@Elegance @Veron
“So feminists are blameless because some of them don’t support raunch feminism?”
So, random black women are at fault because some black women act a fool on Real Housewives of Atlanta?
So, black men with college degree’s who barely escaped the ghetto themselves are at fault ’cause Pookie or Ray-Ray shot somebody?
Kerry Washington is at fault for all of he adultery in America because she plays someone in adulterous affair on TV?
I have to police every black women in America to stop her from ‘acting up’?
OK, now it is my turn to clutch my pearls and I rarely ever do that . Elegance, your entire argument is basically respectability politics turning and devouring itself–*I* am somehow at fault for what someone, somewhere out there is doing because that person is similar to me in some way and I need to show everyone that I am not like that other person. I have to police other people because if I don’t, what will people think of me?
Feminism and feminists are not the Borg Collective come to life.
@Veron @Elegance
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120725210537/glee/images/1/1d/Praise.gif
@Jamila @Veron
I have no problem with respectability politics.
But I base my views on the psychological theories that I mentioned and linked to the post. These are not theories I just made up. If you do not believe in social psychology or sociology then you will not understand me. If you do not agree that social norms or sex norms exist then that will explain our disagreement.
@Elegance
Lol, I did not make up the term “raunch feminism” Google it.
I have googled it, and it isn’t a term promoted by any pro-feminist agendas. Anyone who uses the terms is uses it to lambast a broad ideology. Maybe I should have said that I don’t think it exists outside of you and other critics defining it as such. As an actual feminist tenet, claimed by any actual feminist, it does not exist. Raunch feminism is a term that’s clearly trying to imply negative associations between “Raunch Culture” and “Feminism”, which is odd as hell being that, per the link you posted, the term “raunch culture” was coined by feminist Levy, who, as it has been stated, believes it to be anti-feminist.
“There are feminist groups, there are feminist organizations, and there are feminist blogs. These groups can make statements. … Leaders of such groups can make statements.”
Absolutely. And different groups within an ideology can have different ideas about that ideology, and therefore make different statements. Once there were two leaders within one ideology. One was named Martin Luther King, and the other was named Malcolm X. You can make an argument that they were fighting for the same ideals, but they sure as heck went about it differently. Should Martin have been persecuted when Malcolm was rolling down the streets with a black guerrilla army? I think not.
“Ariel Levey is ONE feminist. She is the only one I have heard about who is opposing raunch feminism.”
You posted a comment below about a group of feminist mothers revolting against raunch.
“I hear them saying Lady Gaga is a great feminist role model instead.”
Lady Gaga is an international pop star. Adrienne Levy wrote a book geared toward a niche audience. Who do you really think is going to get more attention?
@Veron
“Anyone who uses the terms is uses it to lambast a broad ideology. Maybe I should have said that I don’t think it exists outside of you and other critics defining it as such. As an actual feminist tenet, claimed by any actual feminist, it does not exist.”
It doesn’t have to exist as a “tenet”. Someone above found the name for me. Basically, I’m talking about an offshoot of sex-positive feminism. I guess it’s a radical portion of sex-positive feminism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism
Yes Ariel Levy wrote a book criticizing feminist support for raunch culture. One woman wrote a book opposing many feminists. She did not write another book about sexism in the media criticizing the media or men. She wrote a book criticizing other feminists! One does not make up the majority.
Yes, there is another group starting to arise, but again, they are NEW and in opposition to the majority.
@Elegance “It doesn’t have to exist as a “tenet”. Someone above found the name for me. Basically, I’m talking about an offshoot of sex-positive feminism. I guess it’s a radical portion of sex-positive feminism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism”
Ok. But then, again, the information you’re linking is showing multiple different variables, many of which are wholly opposite to the posits in your article.
“Yes Ariel Levy wrote a book criticizing feminist support for raunch culture. One woman wrote a book opposing many feminists. She did not write another book about sexism in the media criticizing the media or men.”
Actually, she did. And I am basing this ENTIRELY on the link that YOU posted. “Levy argued that it wasn’t “liberated” or “feminist” to learn to pole dance, wear a T-shirt saying “porn star” or have lots of no-strings sex “like a guy”, but rather it was a trick created by men who were twisting the idea of “liberation” for their own ends”
She seems to be blaming media and men here. Not feminism. I personally have issues with that stance, but it doesn’t back up that she’s blaming feminism. To add, the wikipedia article on sex positive feminism also quotes Levy, in which her stance is: “While not being opposed to sex-positive feminism per se, nor wishing to specifically proscribe certain forms of sexual behavior, she sees a popularized form of sex-positivity as constituting a kind of “raunch culture” in which women internalize objectifying male views of themselves and other women”
Which still isn’t a whole hearted thumbs down to other feminists.
“One does not make up the majority.”
Ok, now I’m confused. Are we agreeing here? Because my whole argument to this point is that you can’t single out any one person or idea in a group of many, or blame the whole for the actions or ideas of one, to which you replied “sure, I can”…. So is it only ok when it benefits your argument?
I guess we’ll do that whole agree to disagree thing, because we’re going in circles. But thanks for the perspective.
@Veron
Oh my goodness.
This is a controversial issue so I presented my anti-raunch culture article. In order to inform readers of alternative views I also posted a few articles with opinions that differ from mine in some areas. I’m not trying to win some battle here, just writing about an interesting topic and trying to inform people about the issue so they can make their own choices.
I know that there are some feminists who are against raunch feminism like Ariel Levy. But she has 1 book. Where are the rest of the books? Given how rampant sex is in the media I would think there would be more. It doesn’t seem like its 50% of feminists are pro-raunch and 50% are anti-raunch, it seems more like 80%-20%. Most of the opposed people I read about aren’t even feminists and many are men. But this is my opinion based on internet reading. From my personal and subjective perspective it seems like MOST feminists support raunch culture while a small proportion don’t. Since there is not a unified group or a feminist survey of views no one knows for sure how many believe what.
You said I couldn’t think/blame something. My response to that question is always, “You are wrong, I can think anything under the sun and I can blame anything I want for anything under the sun too”. Understand? It’s a FACT that you saying I can’t think/blame something doesn’t affect my thoughts. I can blame the devil, the universe, global warming, bad luck, whatever…it really doesn’t change my life or anything. You should have said, I SHOULD not be thinking/blaming something. It’s not a big deal, it was a JOKE from my school days. When it comes to personal preferences people can believe whatever they want for whatever reasons.
My simple opinion is this: I think promiscuity is harmful to people and society and I think feminists should not promote or endorse it. Everything else is filler arguments and evidence to support this opinion. Arguing over this word and that word doesn’t change anything and isn’t really necessary for understanding the gist of the article.
It would have been great to hear people provide evidence that norms do not exist, men do not hold women to sexual norms, feminists neversupport promiscuity, feminists are never male-identified, raunch culture is good etc. That’s what I thought would happen.
@Elegance @Veron “So feminists are blameless because some of them don’t support raunch feminism? No, the entire groups is to blame. The ones endorsing raunch feminism and promiscuity is to blame. The others in the group who call themselves feminists are also to blame because they are not doing enough to stop the raunch feminists. If you have a group and members of that group act up then the ENTIRE group is responsible. They are all using the same banner so they are all responsible and they need to create a unified stance on the issue.”
Do you really really believe this or did you just think it would sound good at the time so you would have a response?
If you do really believe this why are you on this site? The very essence of this site goes against the nonsense you posted.
@Elegance @Veron
Since when does this site promote sleeping around? That isn’t the essence of this site.
Yes I believe what I wrote. There is a reason why only 1/7 women call themselves feminists. I won’t be a part of a group that has members saying the things I hear a lot of feminists say. You act like feminists are beyond reproach or something…they are not.
@Elegance @Veron “There is a reason why only 1/7 women call themselves feminists.”
Yet somehow you think the opinion of 1/7 of women dominates the other 6/7.
Let me be more clear the part below specifically goes against what this site is about.
“No, the entire groups is to blame. The ones endorsing raunch feminism and promiscuity is to blame. The others in the group who call themselves feminists are also to blame because they are not doing enough to stop the raunch feminists. If you have a group and members of that group act up then the ENTIRE group is responsible. They are all using the same banner so they are all responsible and they need to create a unified stance on the issue.”
Basically you are saying that the black women who frequent this site are responsible for ALL black women and ALL black people because they consider themselves back. You can’t pick and choose when you want this argument to apply. It either works or it doesn’t.
@Veron
This is from one of the attached articles:
“Freedman embodies a striking cultural shift – the revolt against raunch – in which a growing cohort of feminists and libertarians are turning against the 21st-century excesses of the “free love” cultures they once embraced.
They are now allied, on this issue at least, with many of the social conservatives they once regarded as reactionary…Freedman told The Weekend Australian this week that unease among mothers about our highly sexualised culture – from the rise of internet pornography to sexually explicit music videos and sexed-up tween idols – would spawn a new kind of feminism. “It feels like mothers are going to lead this new wave of feminism,” she said. “I think that your viewpoint changes when you become a parent.”
So a new group of conservative, mothers are calling themselves feminists and are against raunch culture. But not that this is “new” thinking and less liberal compared to many other feminists. They are not the majority.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/feminists-in-anti-raunch-culture-revolt/story-e6frg6nf-1225840212908
@Elegance This in no way makes feminism any less broad than it already is. You can’t blame a the masses for the subset, and you cannot reward a subset for the masses.
@Veron
“You can’t blame a the masses for the subset, and you cannot reward a subset for the masses.”
Sure I can 🙂
@Elegance Welp, what can I say. I just think you’re walking a very tricky line, particularly on a website that’s encouraging women to break free from the various stereotypes and negativities that might define us in the eyes of others.
I’m thinking that this culture is a reason many women over 30 still arent married it used to be if you were 30 and still unmarried, it wouLd be hard to find someone. Today, many women cant even get a real nice date in college in some circles–(guy taking you out dancing) without ‘hooking up’ and losing your virginity on purpose–jsut to have a boyfriend…now guys will expect it, and dont even want to marry, and this is all colors BTW–‘I hope im wrong’
@zipporah “Today, many women cant even get a real nice date in college in some circles”
Good point…a lot of people in college are not really into the whole “going on a date” thing…You can still get a date in college but probably not as easily as one could have gotten them in the past…I’m not really mad because college is where most people have their partying and “playing the field” phase…I had it too (without the sex).. I wasn’t going into college with the expectation of finding the love of my life but young women at least deserve to be taken out if that’s what they desire (even if they’re not in a committed relationship)!! It’s like some guys don’t even do anything to impress women anymore…they just want to come over, eat up all your food, and try to get some lol smh….That’s why most college guys aren’t even my type..I’ve been dating older men more recently (not old…but late 20s). At least they take me out (and they’re not always broke lol). I don’t mind staying in to watch a movie some nights or them coming over, but not all the time and not before they’ve at least taken me on one date! They also can’t just take me out once and think they’ve done their part and they can be lazy/ cheap now…. There used to be a little something called “courting”. People just have to stick to their standards because there are lots of duds out there… I didn’t let up, and though I’m single, I at least found some guys are still willing to take me out! It helps me weed out the people with ulterior motives……
@MySmile @zipporah You do realize that many men don’t have the money to ‘court’. The financial obligation that goes along with being a ‘traditional’ man is one burden males have that certain women don’t. Even for those that expressed insult at the notion of going dutch on a date. I wouldn’t want to date a woman that I couldn’t afford to date (so some guys are probably okay but for pockets, which is typical among young ppl in college, especially now) but who may be good guys otherwise. AND if a man does have the means to ‘wine and dine’ a woman, then he’ll definitely have more competition for this time and attention. Isn’t this just what dating is? Certain ppl are ready and willing but don’t have certain means and others have the means and not the same intention as the women he dates. Older working guys don’t have this problem as much.
A man’s willingness to impress a woman is based on his believing she is worth impressing. I’m not familiar with lazy men as dating prospects, I have male friends who are romantically lazy, therefore I would never consider them beyond friends
Some don’t know what’s required of them, others don’t care but the same can be said of women.
@tracyreneejones @MySmile @zipporah
“You do realize that many men don’t have the money to ‘court’. The financial obligation that goes along with being a ‘traditional’ man is one burden males have that certain women don’t.”
that’s not true. im seeing guys of ALL economic means courting girls. we don’t expect them to be rolling in the dough at this stage. most of us are all broke unless you’re one of the trust fund babies 🙂
for example, im a traditional gal so i EXPECT the guy to plan and pay for the date. you don’t need to be well off to do that. maybe it means paying for our 5 star restaurant ,meal or paying for our lunch at subway or pei wei.
the most likely has a part-time job so he’s got a bit of money left over to court a lady
@tracyreneejones @MySmile @zipporah
eeek! my typos
*runs away in shame*
@cocoababe “for example, im a traditional gal so i EXPECT the guy to plan and pay for the date. you don’t need to be well off to do that.”
Exactly. I expect a guy to plan and pay for the date..he does not have to have a lot of money to do that. I used to go to the $1.50 movie with my ex boyfriend and I loved it! The popcorn was good and cheap too. Most college guys spend money on what they want to spend it on (alcohol!!!)…so they can’t tell me they can’t spend $25 for a date every once in a while…I understand some people don’t work while attending school full time, but I do…so I wouldn’t date a guy who had no source of income whatsoever (at least part time, like me)
….and I feel kind of bad for what I’m about to say, but I’m going to be honest…I don’t like broke men anymore…I don’t expect them to be rolling in dough but it’s a turn off when he never has money to do anything (movies and a restaurant every couple weeks, putt putt golfing, ice skating, something..I’m not asking them to fly me to drop $100 dollars on a meal…though I did have one guy who spent over 60 on both of our meals…He had a real career and his own house, but I still felt a little bad..I do have a conscious..but I will let a guy treat me if he really wants to)…maybe that’s another reason older guys attract me these days. Now, I’m all about helping someone save money…I’m not that girl who will order the most expensive thing on the menu unless he insists..I am considerate..I won’t use up all their money, but I like to know that they have a little something in their pocket…I still like the dollar fifty movie theater (not on the first date though)…but I like to know that we have options..
@cocoababe Oh yeah, I meant to put… I’m not asking them to fly me to different cities and drop 100 dollars on a meal (obviously this is an exaggeration, but you get the point lol)
@tracyreneejones ”
“A man’s willingness to impress a woman is based on his believing she is worth impressing. I’m not familiar with lazy men as dating prospects, I have male friends who are romantically lazy, therefore I would never consider them beyond friends”
Can’t argue with that one!!! It’s just that some males only will try to impress women if they think they’ll get sex….but they aren’t my type anyway…
“Some don’t know what’s required of them, others don’t care but the same can be said of women”
I just like men who have no problems with me expecting them to treat on a date…I don’t want them to see me as a burden or some needy golddigger because I am a little traditional in that way…I try to be a nice person and present myself well, but what else would you say is or should be required of women? I’m curious.
@cocoababe @MySmile @zipporah “that’s not true. im seeing guys of ALL economic means courting girls. we don’t expect them to be rolling in the dough at this stage. most of us are all broke unless you’re one of the trust fund babies :)”
What is not true about my statement? People have less money to spend, including those in college and otherwise. You say that you are ‘seeing’ men ‘court’ women, who are these women and what is going on between them that makes you sure that the majority of guys (whom your speaking of) have the money to spend on them? Did you take a poll or are they just out and about? I wasn’t stating an opinion, less disposable income is a fact of our economy. I treated, and tricked off all types of money…when I had it and now I don’t. You don’t know what others have in their pockets to spend on something leisurely like dating and courting. He may opt to buy weed or video games but my point is that not all guys who aren’t spending are doing so because they’re jerks. They could also be broke. 🙂
@tracyreneejones @cocoababe @MySmile @zipporah “He may opt to buy weed or video games but my point is that not all guys who aren’t spending are doing so because they’re jerks. They could also be broke. :)”
Yep. Broke people over hieeeaaahhhh!
@Jamila @cocoababe @MySmile @zipporah #teamdustpockets over here!!
@tracyreneejones @cocoababe @zipporah True!! know some guys truly are broke and not just jerks lol…and while I’m not too extreme, because I don’t have much money myself… I’m not looking to date a man whose bank account is always at 0 or close to it….There are plenty of women who are okay with that, but I can’t even pretend I am…it would probably affect the relationship. I feel shallow for saying that, but I’m not really that shallow…I tried it before and didn’t like it at all…just didn’t work for me. :-/
@tracyreneejones @MySmile @zipporah “… and all I had was 50 cents, so you know how bad I felt!”
Chorus line from a 1920s pop song, about a guy taking a girl on a date … which young lady ate & ate & ate, of the very best things at the most expensive prices … and then, when the check came due, she looked at him with those big, dark eyes, and ….
@MySmile @cocoababe @zipporah What I’m trying to say, in the nicest way possible, is that a woman is only good as what she has to offer. What that may be is arbitrary, and you have the right to wait/accept/turn down and consider men based on your wants and needs. No, a consistently broke man isn’t sexy and its a shame that more of us will remain broke rather than being temporarily broke so now would be a time to establish that finances DO matter. You are not a gold digger for doing so. 🙂 Ask if he has a brother when you find that special guy.
If you look a certain way, then a woman can require certain things from men. That works both ways, men with means can often be assholes and the broke guys are sweet as hell. With that amazing smile, I’m sure you can pull in a man who can afford you.
@MySmile “‘m not looking to date a man whose bank account is always at 0 or close to it…it would probably affect the relationship. I feel shallow for saying that…”
Why do you feel shallow about that? I don’ t think that’s shallow at all, but rather very logical. A man being financial responsible for himself, and knowing how to live within his means is an excellent trait to encourage in yourself and expect in others. Particularly so, I think, if you’re marriage minded.
@MySmile
Let me translate all my typos into english:
“Why do you feel shallow about that? I don’t think that’s shallow at all, but rather very logical. Being financial responsible for, and knowing how to live within your means is an excellent trait to encourage in yourself and expect in others”
@tracyreneejones @MySmile @zipporah ” You do realize that many men don’t have the money to ‘court’. The financial obligation that goes along with being a ‘traditional’ man is one burden males have that certain women don’t.”
My husband courted me and it didn’t require a huge financial output from his end. But, we were both in college at the time, so maybe that’s what made the difference in our case. He paid for all dates – he still does in fact! I pay for nothing when we go out even after 12 years of marriage! When we were dating, we went to restaurants close to campus, we did the activities offered to students around campus (movies, concerts, plays), we went to the park together, had picnics together. He would buy me small gifts – chocolates, flowers. Occasionally, we would do something big together with friends, like a trip to the beach. And the night he proposed, he did take me to one of the best restaurants in town – private dining room by the fireplace 🙂 But, I’m sure he saved up for it since we were still in college at the time.
So, I don’t necessarily agree that it’s financially impossible to court in a traditional way. But, I will acknowledge that ours is somewhat of a special case since we were both in college at the time and married at a young age. But, honestly this traditional girl wouldn’t have had it any other way 🙂
@Veron @MySmile Exactly Veron! There is nothing shallow at all about desiring a man that is financially responsible! One of the many positive things I observed about my husband when we were dating, was how well he handled his money. He was a saver, lived within his means, wasn’t afraid to work and was even paying his own way through college despite the fact his parents were more than capable of paying for him. Within our marriage, that has translated into financial peace and comfort for myself and our children.
@The Working Home Keeper @tracyreneejones @MySmile @zipporah
TY hun! that’s all I was saying in my comment. college guys of ALL economic means can court girls IF they choose to do so….at least in my social circles 🙂 they just have to be creative about it!
@The Working Home Keeper My sentiments exactly! I know everyone’s experiences are different, but what you described is what I have been accustomed to (and received) literally all my life. I don’t have to “demand” it – this is how I’m treated, period.
@tracyreneejones “With that amazing smile, I’m sure you can pull in a man who can afford you.”
Aww thanks! lol..hope so!!!
@Veron I love being taken out, but I also look at the bigger picture…Like you all are saying, I look at whether or not he’s responsible with his money…or he can manage it to where he’s not living paycheck to paycheck. Sometimes I feel shallow/ guilty for liking men with some money who can take me out….but then I snap back to reality lol…. I’m not going to change that or lower my standards….I know what I like!!!
@MySmile @zipporah
“.That’s why most college guys aren’t even my type..I’ve been dating older men more recently (not old…but late 20s). ”
i enjoy the posts on here about dating older men. its a BIG topic among my friends lol. I’m not knocking my fellow college men, but I too have been drawn to guys more in their late 20s and early 30s 🙂
@cocoababe @MySmile @zipporah ” guys more in their late 20s and early 30s :)”
That’s prime marrying age for a man. Many men in their college years and early 20’s are trying to avoid dating because many women are looking for guys who can ‘court’ them, but the guys don’t feel they can afford it or don’t have a desire to afford it. This mismatch–women who want one and have one set of expectation; men who want one thing and have another set of expectations–is part of why the hookup culture is more prevalent in the college sex and among the early twenty-somethings.
@cocoababe@MySmile@zipporah
” guys more in their late 20s and early 30s :)”
That’s prime marrying age for a man. Many men in their college years and early 20’s are trying to avoid dating because many women are looking for guys who can ‘court’ them, but the guys don’t feel they can afford it or don’t have a desire to afford it. This mismatch–women who want one thing and have one set of expectation; men who want one thing and have another set of expectations–is part of why the hookup culture is more prevalent in the college set and among the early twenty-somethings.
@Jamila @MySmile @zipporah
which is why i think college aged girls should def check out the grad and PhD students on campus. those guys tend to be older, MUCH more mature and ready to court you and settle down 🙂
@cocoababe @MySmile @zipporah Yeah, I live in graduate and family housing and there are plenty of single male grad students here, foreigners who are working on their PhDs, and families.
On the other hand, a couple of semesters ago I was sitting in a lecture hall where the guy behind me was telling the girl sitting next to him about how a buddy of his had a girl come over, provide fellatio, and then leave.
It’s all about the company you choose to keep.
@cocoababe @Jamila @zipporah @cocoababe Yep, I’m 23 and will be 24 by the time I graduate…so I’m really not much younger than the Grad students anyway…and I don’t date men older than 29 but even my experience with slightly older men has been more positive than with men my own age. I know there are all ages of men who are immature, and all ages who are mature…but everyone knows the general trend (the older you get, the more mature you get).
coco you deserve a successful prince your age. when i see a bwwm couple often the guys is much older. something is wrong with that picture. stick with the college guys your age. you can tell which are smart and moving in the right direction and its also an oppoprtunity to grow together. the old white man spending $ on a young bw sounds ….
@jakethewrestler I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a BW dating an older WM, if that’s what she wants. Prior to dating my husband, I dated older WM (and a few closer to my age). Some women, like myself, actually prefer older men for a number reasons that have nothing to do with money. Ultimately, I did marry someone closer to my age – but still older than me.
Coco join clubs and orgainiztions that have lots of men members and you will find a good man with similar interest. Being a Grad students is not much of an indication or good measure in terms of being a good man/husband. BW who are frineldy and diverisy (hang with WW) out shine the other women. You will find a man not becasue he is attracted to you becasue he thinks he can trust you. dont settle get the best, make sure he is young and strong and there for you
“My Sex Life is None of Your Business!!! Or is it?”
In the case of that all my baby mama’s show on Oxygen IT WAS. Wasn’t there like 232425 comments on that post w/ people expressing their disgust (and rightly so) about the chance of that show airing on television?
This is definitely not a black & white issue. it depends on situation. there are certainly times when it is necessary to police the actions of others and then there are times when you need to mind your business 🙂
@cocoababe
I agree. People like to act like they are not concerned about what goes on in other people’s bedrooms but many are concerned. They are concerned about the way these people may change sexual norms about what is considered normal sex.
Anyone who has a problem with All my baby mamas, NWNW, being adulterous on Scandal, group sex, swinging, S & M (including racist fantasy role play), teen sex parties, video vixens, Beyonce half naked on GQ magazine or calling Black women Jezebels is concerned about sexual norms. They fear that the observance or knowledge of these things will be a bad example to people and could become normalized, especially by impressionable children. No, these things are not all behind closed doors but they are all about sex!
Some people draw the line at the bedroom door and only concern themselves with public displays of sexuality. But nowadays, what goes on behind closed doors is often gossiped about. Or an exaggerated version is presented to the public in pornography, film, and music videos and people think those are realistic portrayals of sexuality.
Others draw the line at a certain age. For those of you who didn’t have time to read the attached article http://www.theage.com.au/national/generation-sex-as-norms-shift-20090516-b6tn.html Somehow teens are finding out about sex and are getting messages about sexual liberation and exacting that in an extreme way. They learned this from finding out about what consenting adults do behind closed doors. They find out, they think its normal, then they copy. If you have a problem with teens doing these things at a young age then you have a problem with todays sex norms.
I anyone knows the name of that lipstick that the woman at the top of this article is wearing kindly post it. That color is hot and I have got to have it.
@Brenda55 OMGsh I can’t stop looking at it……I WANT IT!!!
Somebody, PLEASE tell me the name of that color lip blush (and the maker) so that I can get it for Brenda!
*Giggles while reading article…walks back out*
It sounds like you’re speaking out against sex-positive feminists and I can understand why. I don’t see how sex anywhere, with anyone and by any means necessary will empower women. However, there is something you stated that reminds me of a meme I’ve seen all over the internet:
“In the past it was only men and promiscuous women saying sex was fun, it’s no big deal etc.”
In other words, “a slut is a woman with the morals of a man.” (anyone else remember this?)
I know it’s beating a dead horse to complain about the promiscuity double standard favoring men. But that double standard is harmful to both men and women. A virtuous woman can marry a cheating man that brings home STD’s. That’s one of the reasons I think that we must make a distinction between promiscuous men and men with standards as well. That way, neither sex will be shamed more than the other.
On the other hand, I appreciate this post because the more negative behaviors are practices, the more they become the norm. People ma try to pressure or ridicule but it’s up to us to put them in their place. Let the move on to like-minded people if they wish.
@LorMarie
Thank you soooo much 🙂
“It sounds like you’re speaking out against sex-positive feminists”
Yes that’s probably it. I keep hearing so many different names I can’t keep them straight.
Yes I totally agree, I think men and women should be held to the same standard. The last article I posted was actually about research showing that women are now not looking favorably upon women and men who sleep around. It’s harmful to everyone and it doesn’t empower women.
Um where did those graphic images come from? They really ruin the idea I’m trying to get across!
@Elegance I’ll shoot Chris an email.
@Jamila Oh okay. I thought there was a hacker trying to mess with me lol. too risque for me.
@Elegance lol
Let me make a prediction – based on the number of teen/20-somethings getting large, gross tattoos – within the next 20 years, the ‘cultural norm’ for women in their 40s will return to late victorian modes – complete with cover-up dresses from wrist to high-neck to ankle, even to gloves and facial masks, to hide the ‘body art’ that they acquired 20 or so years before (now) – probably with a return to neo-Victorian attitudes, pseudo-prudishness, etc., – also to hide the evidence of the ‘raunch culture’ that they wallowed within, in their youth.
Of course, by that time, I’ll be 90 and probably staring at a wall, drooling.
@SirLoinDeBeef
It’s actually funny, in so many science fiction films from the future, everyone looks pretty bland and asexual. And usually people are bred and have actual test tube babies too without natural sex or love. I watch a lot of sci-fi lol 🙂
@Elegance Been reading the stuff since the 50’s and delved back into the turn of the century forward for an omnivorous SF appetite.
For instance, look at The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester, wherein he suggests a return to pseudo-Victorian cover-up culture in response to universal ability to teleport … into women’s bedrooms and bathing areas, among other private areas.
@SirLoinDeBeef
It’s sort of happening already. Back a few years ago, only a few plastic surgeons and dermatologists did ink removal and the equipment was expensive. Now, everybody offers the service and the equipment is cheaper. Problem is getting it; there’s now a multi-month wait on “meat-cooking” lasers and there are whole factories in China churning them out to meet worldwide demand.
Tattoos are just stupid all the way around. I don’t hire people with tattoos, and given the job market, I don’t have to.
I guess my favourite tattoo story is from about three years ago. I saw a blonde girl with 二元妓女 in two inch characters in the classic “tramp stamp” placement. I asked her what it meant and she said that it means “free and loving happy woman” and that she got it in China. She said that Asian guys [she’s White, of course] smile and are all friendly when they see it and she likes that [yellow fever sufferer, I guess] and I told her that’s cool, especially about feeling free and confident. I didn’t tell her that she wasn’t exactly free, as the ink really means “Two Yuan Whore” and she should actually be charging about USD$0.35 for herself.
Maybe if she saves up her quarters and dimes, she can visit Dr. Tatoff…
Prude shaming already happens. Tell anyone you are over 21 and still a virgin and they will either call you sexually repressed and brainwashed, laugh at you, or insist that you must be lying.
@thecrazyartist nahhh try 16.
@thecrazyartist Yes Ma’am! I’m 26 and a virgin and I get all of the above responses!
@jetirado @thecrazyartist
Why do you go around telling people you are a virgin? Seriously, does anyone care? How does that inter in a conversation?
@thecrazyartist
That is not true. A very good friend of mine was a virgin until she was about 29-30. The only people who encouraged her NOT to have sex where myself, and two other good friends, both of whom were hard core groupies. We thought the guy was a good looking douche, and was not out for her best interest. Unfortunately, turns out we were correct.
So, that whole prude shaming shit…is a load of crap. I see and hear so much more slut shaming than anything else. You know those back handed comments….’I’m a virgin because I have morals’ Having sex or not having sex does not make you moral or immoral.
@DarlingNikki69 @thecrazyartist
While I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s a load of crap (because I have heard things like “she needs to go get some”), I have far more often heard women tell other women to do what’s best for them. I recently had this conversation with a friend who is in her 30s and finding it tougher and tougher to wait.
Then I came here and was truly shocked to see people trying to put people into such polarized groups: madonna/ whore, virgin/ slut, feminine/ masculine. It just seems like self-aggrandizement by belittling others. If your way is wonderful, walk it! Live it! Be your wonderful self, and you will attract like-minded people. Calling names and putting people down for making choices that are best for their own respective lives does not seem like a “wonderful” way to live to me. But I’m just one person, and that is my opinion.
If I wandered in here and someone was bashing women who choose not to have sex, or those who are more conservative, by calling them “prudes,” “cold fish,” ‘pollyanna” and a bunch of other names, I would NOT keep my peace. I don’t like to see people be mistreated and put down for making choices that are best for their own lives and don’t hurt anyone. I DO think we need to be accountable for what we say and do to one another. “Slut,” “whore,” and calling women “masculine” because they don’t wear dresses all the time, are just as ugly. Can’t we discuss things without resorting to that?
@NicoleJB @DarlingNikki69 @thecrazyartist “madonna/ whore, virgin/ slut, feminine/ masculine.”
THIS!!! I was so happy when I found this blog, but this part makes me want to pull my hair out!!!
@thecrazyartist
SO TRUE!!
sadly i think this shaming comes more from other women, especially women who are very unhappy with their sexual experiences.
@thecrazyartist They mostly think I’m lying… lol smh…or that I’m super religious…which I’m not!
You say you have no desire to create change and simply want to highlight an issue but you come to the table with no FACTS (sorry Wikipedia doesn’t count) or statistics. All is see in your article is a lot of opinion based on your beliefs (most men this, most feminist that) and that makes it come across as a rant. Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like your point is ” men like easy sex, a bunch of women have easy sex, and it makes it hard for me and women like me to find someone to marry”. Did I get it right?
The attached articles are there so that you can find the facts. If you have access to a university library then you can find and download the research articles that are sited there.
My point is that promiscuous men and women are changing the sex norm to one of casual sex and some feminists are supporting this change when I don’t think they should. Like I said, social norms ans sex norms are intro social psychology and sociology topics. I’m sure you can find more info about it online or in a text book.
@Elegance
Opinion understood.
So, basically your post is an opinion piece that you tried to support with “facts” used in suspect manner. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it seems to be easily summarized as: “I think all women should be like me. Those who aren’t like me are making me look bad when I’m really the good one.”
I believe that’s called “whining.” Put your grown-woman panties on, and find yourself the good man that you seek. He’s out there. Heck, I know some right here in L.A…. where ya at?
@NicoleJB @Elegance
Nicole, let’s tone it down a bit (i.e.”whining”).
I think this thread might need a breather.
@Elegance I don’t think anyone is making personal attacks on you. As evidence of the ‘fact’ that promiscuous women are ruining the dating market, you offered as evidence your personal experience, stating that you have had to turn away numerous men who don’t want to wait for sex. Because you presented this as a personal problem–and blamed feminism–people here presented you with a solution to address your particular problem.
As far as offering up ‘science,’ that is not what you provided. You listed numerous articles/posts at the end of your post–but without placing those links into context by embedding them within specific assertions made by you, I don’t know what you thought those links were supposed to prove or support. No one here is going to read through some random collection of links, as if we don’t know as much (if not more) about these topics than you.
I, for one, have been a self-proclaimed feminist for years. I know many feminists and know quite a bit about the many varieties and waves of feminism. You have presented what I believe to be an intentionally inaccurate and inflammatory view of feminism. One second you seem to be arguing one point; the next moment you are arguing another; and the assertions you are making don’t add up and you have provided no evidence to support said assertions.
@Jamila I think they are making personal attacks. Where was my personal experience in the article? I may have missed something in my post so please point it out and I will delete it. I kept the article impersonal. My experience does not make it fact, it’s just my experience. My experience proves certain things have happened to me, but not that they are the norm for women. I didn’t ask for advice about a problem. People ask for my personal experience and then use it against me, my blogging mistake.
“You listed numerous articles/posts at the end of your post–but without placing those links into context by embedding them within specific assertions made by you, I don’t know what you thought those links were supposed to prove or support.”
That is the way I write. They are suggested readings. I embedded two of the best ones in the article. Embedding all of them would be too much because I know only the most interested people would read them. I post them so that people can get information from multiple sources. I don’t think it’s wise to ever rely on only one source. There are some topics I do know more about, but since I can’t share all that information I provide accessible Internet articles for people to read. Sorry I don’t have access to journal articles or online textbooks to link for you.
I answered some personal questions in the comments but it keeps going on and on. Now I know to never answer them. Lesson learned.
You believe that I was being intentionally inaccurate and inflammatory. How does one write about an ideology one disagrees with? What evidence is needed? Do people need more evidence that sex norms exist, that they affect people’s thinking, that there are feminists supporting raunch culture?
Either way, I tried to present my ideas. You don’t like it. I don’t think feminists would like anything I would have written on the topic anyway and were bound to find fault with. You can delete my comments if they are not adding up because these blogging standards are way too high for me to meet and it’s way too much work and not fun at all.
@Elegance “…these blogging standards are way too high for me to meet and it’s way too much work and not fun at all. ”
Elegance, don’t take all of this so personally. You can choose to respond or not respond to any comments made in the comments section; you don’t even have to respond to comments made on your posts if you don’t want to–just sit back and read what other people have to say, if you think that would be more fun for you.
Blogging takes a while to get used to and to find a balance that works for you, especially when you move from a smaller forum (like a personal blog) to a larger forum where not everyone is going to agree with you and the people who disagree with you are more likely to comment than the people that do agree with you.
My advice is the same: Everybody take a breather and come back with fresh eyes and calmer nerves tomorrow.
you are a Princess Elegance, if you join the right clubs/organ you will find ppl with common beliefs.
@Elegance @Jamila “That is the way I write.”
Um, just a little suggestion… you might want to google how to properly cite supporting materials in an article if you are going to blog long-term….? That kind of falls outside the realm of creative license…
(ducks out, covers head)
I’d like to ask commentors to read the science and attached articles instead of making personal attacks. I have an opinion and it is baked up by science (from years of study, not what I have posted here since I can’t post text books or journal articles). If you disagree with the science fine but disagreeing because you think I can’t get a man or something is petty and not constructive at all. Thank you.
Everybody say “woo-sah” and take a breather.
I’m done studying finance for the night so I’m going to bed. I don’t want to come back tomorrow and find that all hell broke loose while I was gone.
@Jamila Woo-sah. No hellbreak from me tonight. I promise.
Aww shucks I’m torn 🙁
Okay what women do with their bodies isn’t any of my business.If it was then I wouldn’t be for political debates about freedom of “CHOICE” right ladies? So yeah I don’t focus on what the average woman does. (Here’s my hypocritical part, grrr) Now of course I don’t agree with folks messing with Tom, Dick and Harry without a care in the world, but I don’t think other individuals especially other females should be hung up on another woman’s sexual life “ONLY” if the woman is just dating, practicing safe sex and not jumping from man to man. I don’t see anything wrong with a woman who displays those characteristics. There’s a difference between a slut and a woman who approaches her sexual life in a responsible manner.
I do agree with women needing to put their bodies back on a pedestal but only because of the way men view women who are seen as “thirsty” if you will. Men don’t respect women when they know that the woman is going to drop their panties at the drop of a hat. That’s why they throw all of these silly labels on women like “Who’s wifey type, who’s a jumpoff, groupie” you know the typical labels (all races of men do it). They do it because women don’t FORCE MEN TO RESPECT THEM. Force them to respect you, force them to want you, force them to see that you’re more than vagina, tits and ass for their fulfillment or quick fix. Put your self on a pedestal and tell them “Na na boo you can’t get this” lol. It’ll show men up.
For the record, I don’t think we should make this into a man/woman thing, when it’s basically a human thing 🙂
I agree with you on a lot of this.
Do I think it’s a good IDEA for anybody to indiscriminately be jumping into bed with anyone else (regardless of gender)? Absolutely not. But that’s my opinion, and I just make sure to conduct my behavior according to my own morals, and keep it moving. Not everyone’s morals are going to be the same as mine (some stricter, some more lenient) – and that’s fine with me.
What I DON’T like, and confront whenever it falls into my lap is the systematic dehumanization of women by calculating their worth by what they choose to do sexually. Are some women making poor choices? Yes. And so are some men. The only difference is that, historically, men have gotten a pass, and women got (and still get) thrown out, beaten, killed, and called all kinds of names. I call bs on that, and won’t support it in any way.
Having sex doesn’t mean you don’t respect yourself, and NOT having sex doesn’t mean that you do.
I don’t know where to start here. I won’t address the feminism stuff, because I, like some of the other commenters, was a student of feminism. @Elegance, we won’t be able to agree on terms when it comes to that, so I can’t address it. For instance, you go from talking about where raunch culture and feminism meet, to raunch feminism. For many of us, this is egregious. Also not the same thing: raunch culture and casual sex. But all this is beside the point. I’d love for you to define “pressure” in ths context. I cannot imagine throwing a perfectly eligible bachelor away because he REALLY wants to bone me. Unless he’s getting physically aggressive about it, it’s a win-win. If he continues to call even if he’s not getting sex, let him moan, whine, and complain. I’m assuming you (the general ‘you’) have more to offer a man than your vag, and if he’s really a quality dude, he’ll brave the blue balls and enjoy everything else about you. Maybe he’ll be getting it somewhere else until you’re ready, but I don’t see anything wrong with that IF you’re still in the getting to know you phase. I’ve made men wait up to 6 months in the past even knowing they were seeing other women in the interim, and we’ve ended up in exclusive relationships.
I’m confident enough in what i have to offer that I don’t need to control what other folks are doing, in order to get what I want. You kiss him softly on the lips, then hop in a cab and turn your phone off till the next day. I have never been dumped for playing a little hard to get. Of course they’re gonna try it!! That. Is. The. Game. Then this… “So if promiscuous women get married (maybe even by lying to their husbands about their sex number), get old, or stop dating, then other single women are left with the norm!” The only person who needs to know my sex number less than some woman I don’t know, is my man! Don’t be mad at promiscuous women for knowing better than to tell a man something they know he doesn’t want to hear! Telling a man your sex number is not a requirement.* I sure as shit don’t want to know his! Like i said, you know how to play the game, or you don’t. Trust, if the next phase is super-prude-Victorian-style courtship, I’ll know how to navigate that norm, too. (Please do not jump from fudging a sex number to lying about STDs. Just heading that one off at the pass.)
I apologize for the big block comment. My paragraph breaks don’t show up when I post from my iPad.
Elegance – If your feeling frustrated in finding a man who will abstain and wait to have sex with you. You need to expand your search in your circle of quality men. There are good guys out there who want a quality relationship. All these men you’ve said you’ve had to reject is not because your competing with millions of promiscuous women who sex men right away. You just haven’t met the right man yet. There will always be sexually promiscuous men and women. You can advise people about sexual responsibility or monogomous relationships. But lecturing strangers into how you think they should be living their lives is impossible. FYI – The number of sexual partners one has had is not a correlation of whether they would make a great partner in marriage or a relationship. Because everyone has different standards and values of what type of person would be a quality partner or spouse in marriage or a relationship.
From Kenyatta – ‘I’m sorry if you can’t find ANY man willing to wait 2-3 months to have sex with you. You need to make better choices in men.’ ——THIS!
From Kenyatta – ‘I’m sorry if you can’t find ANY man willing to wait 2-3 months to have sex with you. You need to make better choices in men.’ —THIS!
From Kenyatta – ‘I’m sorry if you can’t find ANY man willing to wait 2-3 months to have sex with you. You need to make better choices in men.’ -THIS!
From Kenyatta to Elegance – ‘I’m sorry if you can’t find ANY man willing to wait 2-3 months to have sex with you. You need to make better choices in men.’ THIS!
From MySmile – ‘….and I feel kind of bad for what I’m about to say, but I’m going to be honest…I don’t like broke men anymore.’ – THIS! – I never liked broke men. Period. Never apologize for your preferences. Men never apologize for their preferences. Especially black men. Many black women are too lenient with their standards and boundaries for men. Black women are always worried about being accused of being bougie or having high standards.
@kia You can say that again! I never liked broke men either, I just tricked myself into believing it was okay lol..I know what I want now…
I was never lenient and never felt uncomfortable about having standards, but sometimes I’m uncomfortable vocalizing them to other people who may not share those same standards! I’m getting better at it though. No broke men over here! *cue the music: “I don’t want no scrub…a scrub is a guy that can’t get no love from me….”*
I think people should express themselves sexually responsibly. It is their business if they want to be a virgin until marriage or ‘whore’ it out. Or go BDSM.
They can have sex on the first date and be prepared for the consequences of that. Or they can wait and deal with the consequences of that.
Just because some chick is ‘whoring’ it up with a lot of guys doesn’t mean that the men will expect YOU to do the same. Believe it or not guys are okay with you saying no to sexual things.
I know I’m late (it’s the weekend, and I at least *try* to step away from the computer) I just want to say that while I don’t always agree with everything BB&W writers post, I appreciate the time, effort and thought they put into it. That goes for @Elegance too. I pick our editorial staff quite deliberately–because I believe a variety of voices in the space are more valuable than an echo chamber. @Elegance , I’m sorry you are frustrated, and I’d like to publicly extend an offer for you to stay with us. Of course it is your choice not to, but I value your principles and opinions. And while many reading this post might agree with your stance, they may choose to stay on the sidelines because they don’t wish to beef with folks. I for one, would be sorry to see @Elegance go.
@Christelyn @Elegance love Elegance
@Christelyn @Elegance Please stay on oh elegant one!
@DWB @Elegance Interesting that two MEN are the first to beg to keep @Elegance voice heard. Anyone besides me think that’s telling?
@Christelyn @Elegance “And while many reading this post might agree with your stance, they may choose to stay on the sidelines because they don’t wish to beef with folks. I for one, would be sorry to see Elegance go.”
Me too. We are all enriched by the contributions of all….
@EarthJeff @Elegance That’s THREE MEN, now asking for @Elegance to continue posting. Again, this is telling. Ladies who are doing so much arguing and disagreeing with her stance, look who is here defending @Elegance . Why? In their eyes, this feminine creature is stirring up the chivalrous nature of these men. Way to go, putting your wiles into practice, @Elegance !
@Christelyn @EarthJeff @Elegance Indeed Christelyn! It is very telling. Men love feminine women and will defend and aid them.
@Christelyn @EarthJeff @Elegance You can be a feminine woman and still disagree. 🙂 But I get the whole damsel in distress thing too. Moreover, no one asked Elegance to leave and I do hope she reconsiders and stays. I’ve had my opinions and beliefs challenged myself and I’ve found that it has only helped me to either confirm or rethink my beliefs. I appreciate people who disagree with me- but that’s just me.
@zabeth @Christelyn @EarthJeff @Elegance “You can be a feminine woman and still disagree.”
Precisely. One of the many aspects I love about this community — healthy discourse; varied perspectives and opinions from the bloggers.
I hope you reconsider Elegance. I appreciate and value your perspective alongside all of the other bloggers on BB&W. Thank you!
@Christelyn @EarthJeff @Elegance
The guys also know when to skip a cat fight. I admire them for that.
@Brenda55 @Christelyn @Elegance “The guys also know when to skip a cat fight. I admire them for that. ”
The inhibitor gene for that is on the Y chromosome….
@EarthJeff @Brenda55 @Christelyn @Elegance LOL
@Christelyn @Elegance
YOU BETTER STAY ELEGANCE!!! lol 🙂
“And while many reading this post might agree with your stance, they may choose to stay on the sidelines because they don’t wish to beef with folks.”
for many conservative issue on this blog, this is what I may do from now on. folks can get TOO aggressive. there’s a difference between sharing your opinions and trying to convert people. i don’t think Elegance is trying to convert everyone.
its funny because people are telling her not to take the comments so seriously, but I think some took her post personally because of (poor) choices they’ve made in their own lives.
thanks for stepping in Chris!
@cocoababe @Christelyn @Elegance The aggression you’re talking about…I don’t know sometimes posters seem very prickly, and imo just waiting to be offended :/ Especially of late. I’m not sure if it’s just my impression.
@KingsDaughter @cocoababe @Christelyn @Elegance Not just you – I’ve noticed it too.
@Christelyn @Elegance Adding my voice to those asking Elegance to stay! I very much appreciate her perspective regarding traditional femininity, as it is similar to mine. I would hate to see BB&W lose that. It’s a valuable message that needs to be heard (despite what feminists may say). Please stay my dear!
@Christelyn @Elegance
WHAT?! Why are we asking @Elegance to stay….. Where is she going?
One of the reasons I frequent this blog and share my 2 cents, is because of the variety of topics shared…. Do I agree with every writer on the blog, HECK NO! But that’s the beauty of adult conversation. We may not agree, but can still learn and appreciate each other stance. I for one love your post @Elegance and enjoy reading and learning from them.
I hope you reconsider, your type of logic is needed and appreciated. You’re not here to be politically correct. While many “regular” posters may not agree with you or find value in your post, I guarantee you there are “lurkers” who do.
*grabs sign and joins picket line* NO @Elegance , NO PEACE!!!!! WHAT DO WE WANT….. @Elegance ! WHEN DO WE WANT HER NOW!!!!
@Lexi88 @Elegance Late last night, weary from battle, @Elegance resigned from blogging on BB&W. I’m trying to make her reconsider.
@Christelyn @Lexi88 @Elegance Noooo! This makes me so sad 🙁 Please reconsider @Elegance ! Your voice is very much needed here.
@Christelyn @Elegance Darnnit! The one night I choose to remain internet free, a battle takes place and I miss it. Hope it’s not too late…. @Elegance I hope you at least read the comments, and reconsider. Those comments are NOT the voice of the people.
If your posts are soooo left field and outdated, there wouldn’t be so many single black women with little, to no clue on how to get and keep a man.
While @Elegance post may not be YOUR story (you slept with your man on the first date and he still married you…GREAT! But, that is NOT the norm), it is the story of many. Take a poll, ask men their thoughts and you will find a lot of the things shared by women like @Elegance , are truth for MANY men.
While I’ve only been here a few months, I kinda know what to excepts from all BBW writers and their belief systems, some I like, some not so much. In saying that, I at times skip over many topics because I know I will not agree with the writer, so why even bother arguing ( unless I’m feeling like a pushy NY’er…then all hell breaks lose lol). So here’s a suggestion, if you’re so passionate about your stance that you cannot be civil and respectful…… On to the next one!
*gets back on picket line*
@Lexi88 @Christelyn @Elegance
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don’t leave @Elegance !!!!
I don’t want you to gooooo! Your posts are sooo cool man!
You may not be used to all of the comments and stuff. Not so many people on your blogspot did that. We need all view points! All black women are not the same!
OMG if you leave I’m gonna have a major attitude all day.
@heyimPearlilikefries @Lexi88 @Christelyn @Elegance
Please stay elegance, one of the best qualities of this site is different viewpoints. You are welcome elegance, please do not leave.
@Christelyn @Elegance Controversial topics are going to stir waters on both sides of the pot, but if we all agreed on everything, we’d learn nothing. I may have been one of the commenters challenging Elegance’s arguments, but I appreciated it as an opportunity to learn new things from others and present my own perspective. I do hope Elegance stays on as staff, as pressing the envelope is not always a bad thing.
@Veron @Christelyn @Elegance Not everyone is always going to agree with you. I appreaciate Elegane’s point of view. I also appreciate everyone here’s opinion- whether I agree with them or not and vice versa. However, sometimes in order to grow and understand why it is that you believe what you believe you have to have your beliefs and opinions challenged. I think that’s how we all grow.
@Elegance I like your thoughtful additions to this blog. I sure hope you stay. The way I see it, if you (and I’m using the plural “you” here) even get something across to just one person, you’ve done your job. There are so many women out there just looking for an answer and, here, we try to help them as much as possible with varied opinions so they can find what works for them or see that there are others who think as they do. I think that’s healthy and comforting. People may not agree with you but you have given another point of view worth considering. I’m an older, settled matron and I plan to stay married to the death but these articles are helpful for me in that they begin a dialogue with my girl posse and my nieces. I brought this up as a discussion topic among the 24 -30 demographic in my girl posse and one of the women asked my how I stay so hip. Needless to say, my head was so big, we could hardly fit in my living room. Humor aside, I want to thank you and all the other writers on the BBW staff for keeping an older, gorgeous-looking crone on top of things. In about two weeks, I’ll be 54; I never expected to wear the title of “hip” at this age! You ladies rock!
@Karla @Elegance “Humor aside, I want to thank you and all the other writers on the BBW staff for keeping an older, gorgeous-looking crone on top of things. In about two weeks, I’ll be 54; I never expected to wear the title of “hip” at this age! You ladies rock!”
I second this. We boomers never lose the cool. We morph. .
Why are you tucking tail and running? The men agree with you, so you must have said or done something right. You know because if a woman disagree with you, and thinks you are slut shaming and not taking responsitiblity for your own actions there must be something wrong with her, and her interpretation of your opinion peice.
Of the people that objected to the peice, or expressed a general difference of opinion none of them were abusive or disrespectful. They just didn’t agree with you, and took you to task. Anyway, the men were there to rescue you, the damsel in distress….
@DarlingNikki69
I doubt @Elegance need to be “rescued”, but if that is how you see it, the “men” are not the only ones coming to her “rescue”…. Plenty of the ladies (myself included) will stand with her.
@Lexi88 @Elegance
I know she doesn’t need to be rescued. She’s intelligent and believes in her cause whole heardetly. Which is why I’m very confused as to why she has walked away. No one insulted her, they just didn’t agree.
@DarlingNikki69 @Elegance
Underhanded suggestions and compliments are insulting.
@Lexi88 @DarlingNikki69 @Elegance
which means for a portion of the responses she got (not all), people took this post personally for whatever reason.
@cocoababe @DarlingNikki69 @Elegance
Anytime a piece is written by a COMPLETE stranger and “you” feel the need to bring the writer down a notch and speak as if she is speaking to YOU directly, it may be because what she wrote really hit home.
@Lexi88 @DarlingNikki69 @Elegance
it happens several times on here, especially the posts written by the white male posters. and the offended party is always some grown women who should know better.
@Lexi88 @cocoababe LOL. On the other hand when said strangers intelligentl disagree, make valid points and take you to task for a slut shaming piece and you over react by leaving in a melodramatic huff…then it maybe because they were correct in their opinions of said opinion peice.
@DarlingNikki69
speaking of disrespectful comments….. *coughs*
“Anyway, the men were there to rescue you, the damsel in distress….”
lol Elegance you’ve got folks jelly over here!!
@cocoababe
Explain please? Girl, please. How did she get folks’s ‘jelly as you say?
suggestion from a nobody, but maybe blog writers should refrain from commenting in their own posts like Jamila (i think) suggested in her post awhile back. maybe only comment unless there is a huge misunderstanding and just leave the rest of us to discuss the topic 🙂
@cocoababe
I agree with you, but some of the comments are written to piss the writer off, not for clarification or to educate…I can see why a writer would come back and defend him/herself.
@Lexi88
oh i agree!! some were comments looking to clarify and see where she was coming from and others were super tacky.
@cocoababe
Moderator’s Note.
The suggestion was from me to not moderate a post that you have written. Comment away otherwise.
@Brenda55 it was a good suggestion!!! 🙂
@cocoababe Good point, Cocobabe. I have seen very few other blogs where the writer jumps into the comments – unless they were adding a single omitted fact. Most have said actually that even reading the comments was a fairly masochistic thing to do when they are writing about a divisive subject. I respect Elegance and her views even when I disagree with her, but I feel she is really rather naive about how the internet works, and I am afraid for her as she is delving into blogging. If she cannot develop a thicker skin, then this may not be her calling. Even the MOST vicious comments on this site would be considered downright quaint on many other sites. Even during a bitter debate, the tone around here is extremely hospitable and polite.
Perhaps it might be a wise thing for Elegance to consider her articles like a piece of art. After you create it and put it on the wall, you cannot create how others interpret it. If the tide of the conversation turns in a way you did not expect, then perhaps you have misjudged your opinion, or who your audience is, or both. Or perhaps you need to drill down into your argument and find something clearer. Like I said, I respect her opinions, but women’s issues and feminism are very well-trod genres, and the average reader of this blog seems to be pretty savvy, so a basic “promiscuity bad, chasity good” argument is just not going to cut it.
I applaud Elegance for jumping in there and taking a drubbing – we all take our lumps every now and then, and clearly she has a lot of supporters – but the internet is a scary place, and this is one of the nicer corners!
This blogging deal is not easy road is it?
That is why, despite being asked multiple times to start one of my own I have not done so. I admire those, like Chris, who do put it out there day after day and take their hazing with grace.
Not everyone is going to love what you write and some are going to love tearing you down for writing it. That is the game I’m afraid. You take your chances in any arena you find your self in.
Unfortunately, I have not been in this thread except to ask that color of that lipstick in the photo that opens it and have not personally moderated it. This is a large and busy community and I do have other things in the real world to attend to. (I.E. Mom is not doing well and my care giving duties are increasing.) I will read it today to see if there were any violations of the TOS.
The internet with its cover of anonymity breeds a mean streak that is not easy to get away with in real life. We forget that there are people on the other side of the words we read and that they have feelings. Having said that the person who enters this arena would do well to understand this environment and proceed with caution. Thicken the skin and to not take some of the responses personally. Actors, politicians in fact most people in public life have raised this ability to a fine art.
I would hate to see Elegance go. If not she cannot stay as a blogger then please stay as a participant.
On another note I am also going to take this opportunity to ask Emily Spring to consider re-joining us. I do miss your posts more than you know. .
@Brenda55 Sorry that y’all want that “person” back here, I will make it my business to avoid it (“her”) at all costs, sorry, my perogative, a type of Black woman I’ve worked all my life to avoid, thank Goddess I reside nowhere near an individual as such, I love y’all, but “her”…….no comment at this point re that “person”.
Just a note of sanity – these are words, displayed on a monitor – nothing more – no one is hanging out, hiding out in the shrubbery at your front door, slavering foir the opportunity to create new holes in your personal body … nor observing you, centered in the cross-hairs of a ‘scoped sniper rifle.
Just word, displayed on a screen …
Omg ELEGANCE please do not leave! I just saw thus thread and so sorry I’m too late to come and defend this amazing piece if work you wrote!
If women are content with living sloppy lives let them. We surely need more sisters like you speaking THE TRUTH! Because women today are full of isht when it comes to this issue. In one breath women bitch about men and their unwillingness to “take us seriously” their “unwillingness these days to settle down” the list goes in. But women don’t want to CHANGE their crappy sloppy NASTY behaviors, they just want to bitch and complain about how hard they have it while wanting to act like men. I’m on my iPhone now do I cannot write all I want to write but I just wanna say black women like you are a breath of fresh air and PLEAE do not let modern day hypocritical feminist mind sets drive you or your message away!
Hi 🙂
Thanks for all the support, I didn’t think there would be much 🙂 Sorry this derailed the topic. I’ll take the advice given so I’ll post this one last comment. I’ll give blogging here another shot but I won’t make any comments and might not even read them. So I won’t be able to provide any clarification or evidence on anything I write. If you are truly interested in an issue you can be empowered and do a Google search, get some text books, or buy some journal articles because I can not provide those things.
As some of you know, I am trying to be an empowered yet “feminine lady” and for me, that means controlling my behaviour and not subjecting myself to certain things. My previous decision to quit was based on this goal:
1) As an empowered lady I do not put up with abuse or disrespect offline or online either. As long as I feel insulted it doesn’t matter if someone else says I wasn’t, and I won’t listen to them when they try to tell me I’m too sensitive and I should be strong enough to take the abuse like a mule. Offline and online my goal is to briefly defend myself and then wash my hands of the person especially if they are a stranger.
2) My goal is not to argue with people for no reason/for amusement because that is unpleasant for everyone, useless, and unbecoming. I have to control my urge to argue with people here who I feel are being disrespectful. The only way I can do that is not to comment. Lesson learned.
3) I am working on sticking to my values and beliefs, and trusting my intelligence, education, and character which means being confident about what I think and do. So I no longer put up with people insulting my intelligence, common sense, or character and those are always personal attacks to me. I just “do what is right for me” and don’t let others convince me to do otherwise since I trust my judgement.
So, with those three goals in mind I think I can continue to blog here, thanks Christelyn :), but I’ll stay away from the comment section. Thanks ladies and gentlemen for your support 😉
Sincerely,
Elegance
@Elegance
Hooray!!!!! Glad you’re sticking around 🙂
*grabs brush and sings* what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger…..
@Lexi88 @Elegance *Singing back-up for @Lexi88 . . . . .
@Elegance I am late to the party because I have been busy with a capital B.
Girl, there will always be people that do not agree with your posts. Some people can be blunt. Others down right ugly. But don’t let it silence you. Even if you have to ignore comments, if you have something to say that you feel others can appreciate as a discussion, go for it.
A lot of contributors, especially the “controversial” ones have had people rant at them at one point or another. It comes with the territory. ;D
Whether people agree or disagree with you is never the point. The point is that you are heard, and that you’ve given someone somewhere something to think about.
And that’s priceless.
@Toni_M @Elegance “A lot of contributors, especially the “controversial” ones have had people rant at them at one point or another. It comes with the territory. ;D””
Very true. All of us that post have kicked over a hornets nest at one time or another…
@Elegance I understand where you are coming from completely! I don’t like arguing for sport either. I feel like it takes me out of my feminine space 🙂 So, so glad you’ve decided to stay! Yay!!!!!
@Elegance glad you’re staying put!!
@Elegance So, with those three goals in mind I think I can continue to blog here, thanks Christelyn :), but I’ll stay away from the comment section. Thanks ladies and gentlemen for your support 😉
I am glad you reconsidered.
So many reasons for me to stay away from commenting about this article.
Why?
Nothing good is going to come from a white guy telling black women how they should handle their business in the bedroom. Simply stated, I do not think I have enough “street cred” to take a side on this one!!! Moreover, since I am no saint, I fear any comment I might could be viewed as either “self-serving,” “hypocritical” or just plain “insensitive.” How can I tell women how to best “earn respect” when I myself have been rather inconsistent in my own bedroom behavior.
But, having just read the post and the comments which were not deleted, there are a few things I am now compelled to say.
First and foremost, setting aside my own life choices, Elegance provides a perspective and a view I absolutely cherish. She has helped me discover how much I appreciate feminine qualities in woman (and black women in particular), and this is currently helping me in my own personal journey.
Second, I can now better see the truth expressed by both sides of the issue. While, I naturally lean towards a more liberal attitude towards sex (cause I was raised in Northern California), I also see the personal benefits of a long courtship. In fact, in hindsight, I’d have to admit that some of my most satisfying relationships have been with women who I befriended for many months before attempting a first kiss. The advantage, you already know the person when the feelings of arousal begin to take over. For me, I am finding that friendship before sex can be a deep and meaningful experience.
However, as noted above, I will refrain from telling others what they should do. All I know, is that for me, I personally benefit from what Elegance has to say.
For that, I say thank you, and I thank you for your decision to stay with us!!!
Can’t take the heat, get out the kitchen.
I can’t recall who among us hasn’t gotten taken to task, even more so if you are a contributor. Write because you feel like you have something to say and not because you seek validation. There are many here who go hard on comments, we do this because some are debaters and use their education and experience to have tough conversations because ppl are reading our pieces and we wish to present intelligent and involved discussions.
Or maybe I’m wrong, maybe this is a feel good party of entitlement and acceptance and we should tip toe around each other lest we ‘hurt feelings’. I’m trying to write without showing my indifference.
There is no other place on the net like this, because of this, it would do any author good to realize that not everyone here is just like you. I don’t want everyone to be my friend, to agree or to take my opinion as gospel truth. You can write to inform, to accuse, to start a conversation, or for a million other reasons. None of which should be to have people openly agree with what you said or else you’ll feel some type of insult. The readers here are educated, open minded and opinionated folks who have lived AGAINST standard expectations, so when you bring a one size fits all point of view, you’re already setting yourself up for debate. To put out your thoughts in public and then cut and run when challenged on them smacks of fear. To write a piece, put thought and time into it, to claim that your topic isn’t heavy is hypocritical. I can only speak for myself, I take my writing seriously, I take the audience seriously, I take the people with opposing opinions seriously. As a group, we want BW to win, to do that we must take into consideration all the various ways in which she can win. Bringing about a stance of a ‘right type’ of woman in any form or fashion is almost reminding BW that they aren’t the ‘right type’ of woman for additional reasons, let alone their understanding of their gender as it affect social perception. Race and color are mine field conversations. Now you know. This entire site is heavy, that’s the point.
@tracyreneejones
“Bringing about a stance of a ‘right type’ of woman in any form or fashion is almost reminding BW that they aren’t the ‘right type’ of woman for additional reasons, let alone their understanding of their gender as it affect social perception.”
oh lord. so was that what all the hoopla was all about???
that’s a terrible mindset for bw to have when approaching topics like this.
@cocoababe @tracyreneejones “oh lord. so was that what all the hoopla was all about???”
For my part, I get totally pissed off when people intentionally mischaracterize feminism, paint feminism and feminists with a broad brush, and then pretend like they can’t understand that they did anything wrong when challenged on their position–or worse yet, they attempt to cry out about being attacked when they write something controversial. (And it’s not just feminism, but any topic that I know a lot about.)
If you’re (not *you*, but anyone) are a sensitive person, then you should keep your writing to lighthearted topics like food and fashion. But when you step into the political arena, no one wants to hear you complain about being challenged on the positions you take. You will absolutely comes off as being whiny and entitled.
@Jamila @tracyreneejones
“You will absolutely comes off as being whiny and entitled. ”
but looking at the comments/likes below, she didn’t come off that way. it looked liked she got ganged up on and people came to her defense. the people (not saying you) you who left the more tackier comments are the ones that look bad, not her.
@Jamila @tracyreneejones
“You will absolutely comes off as being whiny and entitled. ”
but looking at the comments/likes below, she didn’t come off that way. it looked like she got ganged up on and people came to her defense. the people (not saying you) you who left the more tackier comments are the ones that look bad, not her.
@cocoababe @Jamila @tracyreneejones Agreed. I think Elegance handled herself in a very dignified manner.
@Jamila @cocoababe @tracyreneejones
I don’t think being “sensitive” had anything to do with her reaction to being ambushed. Some of the posters made it personal, like she knows them on a personal level and called them out by name. I agree one has to have tough skin to write for a public blog, but I also believe posters should be able to share their views, agree or disagree without personally attacking the writer.
It’s easy to be the big bad wolf behind a computer screen.
@Lexi88 @cocoababe @tracyreneejones
You can’t be ambushed on a blog. When you make comments, people get to reply to you–that is not an ambush; no one is taking aim at anyone from a secret location. Your comment goes up and everyone gets to see and respond to it at the same time.
Again, I stand by my assertion that no one personally attacked Elegance. This post–her initial post–stated that feminists were lowering the value of sex and making it more difficult for women to extort men for a relationship commitment. As evidence of this, she offered up her own experiences in the comments section about having to turn away man after man for not wanting to wait to have sex–that comment of hers has since been erased. When commenters pointed out that perhaps her own experience does not provide evidence to support her position–it was just her experience and not the experience of many of other women, including many who were commenting–and then made suggestions as to why she may be experiencing what others were not, next thing you know, Elegance is supposedly being personally attacked.
Here is a novel suggestion: If you don’t want people to speak directly about your personal experience, don’t bring your personal experiences up in an attempt to bolster your claims. If you don’t want people to speak on it, keep it private.
@Jamila @Lexi88 @tracyreneejones
“You can’t be ambushed on a blog.”
sure you can. and Chris has had to do follow up posts to address it. I mentioned earlier what happens anytime white guys white posts on here. A segment of the posters will find something offensive and start tearing the guys down.
“If you don’t want people to speak directly about your personal experience, don’t bring your personal experiences up in an attempt to bolster your claims. If you don’t want people to speak on it, keep it private. ”
i remember when that young black woman posted about her marriage to a white man significantly older than her and ALL HELL broke loose. Not only was she attacked but so was her hubby and anyone who dared say there is nothing wrong with older white men pursuing younger black women. In that case she was bringing up personal experiences, ie her marriage. She and her hubby certainly didn’t deserved that kind of treatment.
why are we acting like its out of one’s control to have a little tact and some class when talking about heated issues on here?? I get that some people are blunt and have no regard for how they come off in a discussion (“IMMA DO ME!, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!!”, etc, but you need to be aware that not everyone talks about issues like that. It can’t be a my way or the highway, deal with it type of attitude.
If it was, I don’t think Chris would have stepped in here like she does other countless times.
I do get where you are coming from though 🙂
@Jamila @Lexi88 @tracyreneejones
“You can’t be ambushed on a blog.”
sure you can. and Chris has had to do follow up posts to address it. I mentioned earlier what happens anytime white guys white posts on here. A segment of the posters will find something offensive and start tearing the guys down.
“If you don’t want people to speak directly about your personal experience, don’t bring your personal experiences up in an attempt to bolster your claims. If you don’t want people to speak on it, keep it private. ”
i remember when that young black woman posted about her marriage to a white man significantly older than her and ALL HELL broke loose. Not only was she attacked but so was her hubby and anyone who dared say there is nothing wrong with older white men pursuing younger black women. In that case she was bringing up personal experiences, ie her marriage. She and her hubby certainly didn’t deserve that kind of treatment.
why are we acting like its out of one’s control to have a little tact and some class when talking about heated issues on here?? I get that some people are blunt and have no regard for how they come off in a discussion (“IMMA DO ME!, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!!”, etc, but you need to be aware that not everyone talks about issues like that. It can’t be a my way or the highway, deal with it type of attitude.
If it was, I don’t think Chris would have stepped in here like she does other countless times.
I do get where you are coming from though 🙂
@cocoababe @Lexi88 @tracyreneejones
I think the real issue is that people who comment on BB&W want a more supportive and encouraging atmosphere than you get on most blogs that have an open commenting platform. Some of the things here that get people so upset would go totally unnoticed on a larger platform. Novice writers who are probably introverts to begin with will take it much more personally when people don’t agree with them–they feel like they have to respond to every comment, they feel as if they are being ambushed, they feel like people are being unfair to them, when it’s really just the nature of speaking on a public platform.
You go to some of the major sites and there are often times more than a thousand comments on a post with no response at all in the comments section from the writer of said post; but here, you get people writing posts with barely a hundred comments, and if more than a third of those comments are in disagreement with the writer of said post, it gets called an ambush. Again, it’s not that this was an ambush, it’s that many of the people who write and post here want a uniquely more supportive atmosphere than anyone on any of the other major blogs would even expect.
@Jamila @Lexi88 @tracyreneejones
we’ll agree to disagree on this issue 🙂
@cocoababe @Jamila @Lexi88 @tracyreneejones
“It’s easy to be the big bad wolf behind a computer screen.”
This is interesting. Jamila, Tracy, and I use our real names and real photos. Tracy and I have written very personal narratives, and shared private information, on this site and around the web–using our real names–repeatedly. If anyone’s hiding behind screen names and misrepresenting themselves online, I’d say it’s probably not Jamila, Tracy, or myself.
But let’s get back to the piece. I disagree/d with it’s premise because I believe that your dating life is your responsibility. I’ll share another tidbit about myself: in my mid 20’s, the only thing I’d ever straddled was a ballet barre. I dated and kissed my fair share of men during that time, and never once felt pressured, ridiculed, or prude-shamed. Not many people knew, because I had better things to talk about than being a virgin. I didn’t wear it as some sort of badge of honor…being a virgin, or making men wait for sex doesn’t make one virtuous. One can be a virgin and an asshole. (Or worse, selfish!)
It also never occurred to blame the dating game for the fact that I wasn’t finding a guy I felt worthy of my body. I kept working on myself: how I interacted with men, my confidence, expanding my social circle, finding opportunities to travel, which I learned, made me feel powerful. One by one I removed the blocks to interacting with men with ease. Part of communicating, is setting the pace of the relationship. Blaming the game for your failures in doing so is lame. And make no mistake, that is what this piece is. Ideally, you should be able to get what you want, no matter the climate. That’s feminine power.
Furthermore, I wish someone would define what it means to be “pressured for sex”. Are men not supposed to try to get in your pants? I don’t understand. I personally don’t want a man who exhibits no desire to sleep with me. Y’all can have that. Are we neutering men now? Is that the feminine way? You feel more like a lady when men act like they don’t need sex?
Bottom line is, you’ve got to learn to grow where you’re planted. This piece reads like a companion to blaming The Man for the failures of black folk. Nein. Look at yourself.
@Jamila @cocoababe @tracyreneejones
Tracy and Jamilla I like your comments. Since when is tucking tail and runnig away the right, and elegant thing to to do? The classy thing, would be to stand your ground, and explain your peice. She didn’t. She ran off in a huff, and everyone begged her to come back….so in come the supporters to put us who disagree with the peice, and called her out for slut shaming in our place. Problem is big mouthed broads like some of us, don’t just stayquiet because of backhanded insults or rah-rah’s for the author.
You are entitled to your opinion. Defend it. You brought it here.Putting in a resigination because you got called out, is weak minded and fearful. So what I don’t agree? Who give a shit? It appears that there are plenty of women here who resent any facet of feminism and are ok with slut shaming, so you definetley have support.
If you’re going to write for a site that brings multitudes of women of different backgrounds, experiences and ages together you can not honestly expect that we’re all going to agree. You’re eitiher in the wrong place with your stories, or you should’t be writing period.
I do enjoy your peices, most of them because it is the exact opposit of how I am in a lot of ways. So your perspective is interesting, and a bit enlightening. Don’t stop writing because people disagree…….
@Lexi88 @Jamila @cocoababe @tracyreneejones ” I agree one has to have tough skin to write for a public blog, ”
You ladies have it easy and ONLY have to have a tough skin. We guys have to have a tough skin AND be willing to put THEM on the chopping block. Just sayin’…. 😉
@EarthJeff @Lexi88 @Jamila @cocoababe Indeed.
Again well said Jamila.
@ieishah @cocoababe @Jamila @Lexi88 @tracyreneejones Furthermore, I wish someone would define what it means to be “pressured for sex”.
That is a really good point. I feel that after the first few dates, you need to make your expectations clear. If you aren’t going to have sex until marriage, you need to say so at that point rather bluntly. “I am looking to be married in 2 years or whatever…” That will scare 90% of players away. Any man who says that he is willing to wait but keeps pressuring you anyway is simply not marriage material. I would feel like he was doing me a favor by being so pushy! Disqualified! Even if I was waiting for marriage, I would still want some making out at least..
Moderator’s Note.
Lets move on people. Time to get this thread back to discussing the subject at hand. It has been derailed long enough.
Sexual norms, Like being over 20 and a virgin, some of your age mates start to laugh at you.
@Skayi that’s how bad it’s become! That if you are not sexually active something is wrong with you. And it’s not just men who makes these judgements – more than enough women are making the more sexual restraint women feel like they are missing out or something is wrong with the non sexually active female peers. SAD. It’s okay for people to judge the non sexually active but the minute you call out the behaviors if looser women you are going against everything “female” and “feminist” b/c you are “slut shaming” them and blah blah blah. Gotta lorve those DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!
@Neecy @Skayi Agreed.
@Neecy @Skayi @KingsDaughter Hold up. Because I have a visual in my head of you ladies and your age mates/peers sitting in one big circle of judgement; the virgins calling out the sluts, the sluts calling out the prudes…actually sounds pretty catty. And by catty, I mean, not in true feminine power.
Let’s talk brass tacks. If by age mates/peers you mean actual friends, please find new ones. As I said below in the thread, I was a virgin for way longer than most women will be in this day and age (if you’re under 25, come back to me in 5 years). I had 2 very close friends. One was also a virgin, the other was super selective. Find likeminded friends. It’s possible. I did it.
If by age mates/peers you mean acquaintances, I cannot imagine why on God’s green earth you’d be talking to them about who you do or don’t sleep with. Set better boundaries.
And finally, if by age mates/peers you mean, folks on blogs, message boards and such, the above advice applies. I’d like to point out that no one on this thread suggested promiscuity was the light and the way. Most of us are talking about personal responsibility in dating and choice. Which ‘people’ are judging you for not being sexually active? No one here ‘called anyone out’ for NOT having sex. That’s ridiculous. As ridiculous as calling someone out FOR having sex.
I’m sure people talked…behind my back. Cowardly, but totally fine with me. It was pretty much confirmed years later that a handful of people thought I was a lesbian. But no one would have dared come to my face with that ish. I credit setting boundaries. Also, being respectful of other folks’ choices. I wasn’t sweating what they were doing, so no one had reason to ‘call me out’. Treating people like you want to be treated actually works.
@ieishah @Neecy @Skayi @KingsDaughter not a direct attach, but media and society just make you feel like an outcast. But to each their own.
@Skayi @ieishah @Neecy @Skayi @KingsDaughter “not a direct attach, but media and society just make you feel like an outcast.”
I get you, but society makes me feel that way because of many choices I may make. To be a black woman, to be an Atheist etc… It is up to me to stiffen my backbone, hold my head up high and keep on rolling in my style.
@Sunshine789 @Skayi @ieishah @Neecy @KingsDaughter And capital F society AND the media!
@Skayi The number of virgins may actually be increasing. OK, some of your age mates make fun of you. But many of your age mates probably don’t because they are virgins too.
”
Even so, “it’s not like everyone is having casual sex all the time,” says sociologist Paula England of Stanford University, whose ongoing research since 2005 has surveyed more than 17,000 students from 20 colleges and universities. “Some people are hooking up a bunch of times with the same person but are not calling it a relationship. Others are never doing anything you would call a hookup.”
Her latest data finds that by senior year, 72% of both sexes reported having at least one hookup, with the average of 9.7 for men and 7.1 for women. Just under one-quarter (24%) of seniors say they are virgins, she says.
The percentage of those who claim virginity appears to be increasing, according to a National Center for Health Statistics study released this month of 2006-08 data. Among 18- and 19-year-olds, about one-quarter of men and women said they hadn’t had sexual contact with another person, up from 17% of women and 22% of men in 2002. Among those ages 20-24, 12% of women and 13% of men said they were virgins, up from 8% for both sexes in 2002.”
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/wellness/dating/story/2011/03/More-hookups-on-campuses-but-more-virgins-too/45556388/1
There are plenty of folks on college campus’s who are not having sex.
@Jamila @Skayi
Thank you for the survey information.
I Guess we can ask the question this way for those who do not feel that the actions of a majoroty in a collective group do not affect the majority in that collective group whether they participate in certain behaviors or not.
Do ANY Black women who frequent blogs and forums like this feel like outcasts in society b/c we are not representative of the “atypical” Black woman that has been so popualr in media and pop culture? You know the loud, evil, neck rolling, fat, asexual,fight ready un-feminien Black women we see so often int he media and who are often mistaken for the whole of BW?
Can anyone here NOT deny that the behaviors and actions of the majority of Black women today (see above behaviors I listed) has not affected even the good decent Black women who would never think to act that way?
Can anyone here deny that the biggest issue for decent quality Black women breaking down dating barriers relies in how we are perceived as women in a negative light? that Black women are ball busting evil biatches that are always ready to fight and go off or we are all fat mummified, or we are like the overly sexual jezebels we see in rap videos?
If you say YES to any of these but argue against this Post made by Elegance, then you just don’t get it.
The actions of a MAJORITY in a collective group DO AFFECT THE MAJORITY and also affects how that collective group will be viewed or perceived in situations. if it is the norm that Black women are seen as FAT and aggressive ball busting asexual biddies, its pretty safe to say that the numbers of BW who do not fit that category are going to suffer in some ways b/c of these perceptions. the same applies to women who feel they can have their casual sexual freedom, and it not affect the sexual market place, men, and other women who may chose a different route. When the NORM becomes the NORM, it becomes very hard for the people who refuse to go with t he norm or who do not fit int he norm category based on action, beliefs or behaviors to make headway UNLESS they are willing to speak up and out (like BW on BWE forums are doing) and like ELEGANCE is doing.
It is VERY clear to me why women for the most part are still not taken seriously by men. because women want to nit pick at what it is WE feel we should be able to get away with, while we still try to gain certain advantages and benefits even though our behaviors DON’T warrant such.
THANK YOU ELEGANCE for gong where most women are afraid to go. Because everything is always fine and dandy until you have to start doing some self reflection and seeing that your BEHAVIOR is the root of most of the issues that revolve around why women are still not getting IT on why the Sexual market place continues to dwindle in terms of quality mates and relationships. Until women UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT the power they hold in changing how things are for us int eh sexual market place we will be having these discussions until eternity!
@Neecy
I think what you ignoring, or perhaps you don’t realize is that black women aren’t a monolith, and what you posted here is not the reality of all black women. Have I ever felt maligned or dismissed by virtue of being a black American woman? Yes. But that says more about the other person than it does about me.
I will not modify my behavior, my morals, or my self-esteem based on the opinion of some ignoramus who gets his or her opinion of black women from music videos, or the black woman in their neighborhood who slept around, talked loudly, swiveled her neck, weighed 275 lbs., had 8 children by 7 different fathers, and ate fried chicken and watermelon on the corner on Sundays after church.
No. I refuse to be put into a position of having to live my life in such a way that I am constantly proving who I am not.
I live my life the best way that I know how, according to my OWN moral code. I cultivate fulfilling relationships in various areas of my life: work, friendship, familial, and intimate. I educate myself. I stay curious. I feed my passion for life. I help others. I am far too busy living my life like it’s golden to be worried about someone who can’t be bothered to get to know me on an individual basis before stereotyping me. And I certainly don’t expect that my living my life as I see fit should draw ire and condescension from women who call themselves “sisters” because they feel it necessary to police my sexuality (or other behavior) to improve their chances of finding a good man, or to improve some perceived status in the eyes of men. I have 6 sisters by blood, and many more sisters by choice, and though we don’t all agree, we definitely don’t treat one another with such disrespect, name-calling, and theatrics.
We are all responsible for our own choices. The black women who fit the “stereotypes” are free to do so. The outliers – the ones who don’t have sex at all (or rarely) and the ones who have sex with 30 men in as many days, are free to do so. I don’t think either of those options is ideal for me, but that’s the beauty of choice- we each get to decide what’s best for us. Men too.
I truly don’t know how you could want it any other way.
@NicoleJB @Neecy Very well said.
@Neecy “Can anyone here deny that the biggest issue for decent quality Black women breaking down dating barriers relies in how we are perceived as women in a negative light? that Black women are ball busting evil biatches that are always ready to fight and go off or we are all fat mummified, or we are like the overly sexual jezebels we see in rap videos? ”
Not by a long shot! I have never had a problem dating simply because I do not carry myself in that way, so men do not confuse me with those stereotypes. Also, I tend to rotate in circles that do not traffic heavily in those stereotypes. The bigger problem is women who continue to slam themselves repeatedly against that brick wall of choosing MEN WHO DO NOT RESPECT THEM and TRY TO CHANGE THEM AND/OR OTHER WOMEN. You cannot change others! But you can change yourself, and choose other men!
Well said Sunshine
@Sunshine789 @Neecy
Thanks for that, Sunshine. I’ve been wondering where one has to circulate in order to REGULARLY run into men who see black women as ball-busting, fighting, evil biatches, fat mummies, or overly sexual jezebels, and ONLY men like that. If I accidentally stumble into that place, I’m not going to go there a second time.
@NicoleJB @Neecy I know, right? This does not seem like the place to go looking for a good man!
@Sunshine789
Nor anything else. Good meal, good times, NOTHING! LOL…
@Sunshine789 @Neecy Please share specifics! What circles do you run in, and how, SPECIFICALLY, do you carry yourself ?
You can’t control what other people do. You can only control what you do. That’s how life works. If you don’t get that. You will always have a hard life. I don’t know why some people refuse to see this. I feel that some people are coddling Elegance. Begging her not to leave. If she wants to leave let her go. If she chooses to stay. That’s her perogative. If someone is scared to leave anonymous comments on the web. You have bigger problems than relationships. I don’t know why some people cry defense when someone disagrees with their comments. When you leave comments in a public forum. Not everyone is going to agree with you. That’s how a public forum works. That’s life. If you don’t like reading comments that oppose your views. You have the option of not reading them and not responding to them.
No one here has ever attacked Elegance. If you really want to read denigrating comments about black women. Go to bossip.
@kia
I actually went back through some of the comments to see if I could find these “attacks.” I see I’m not the only one who couldn’t find them.
Sleeping around is empowering for some women, but denigrating for others. Everyone is different. The genie is not going back into the bottle. No amount of shaming is going to make women that want to sleep around suddenly shut their legs. No amount of “properly behaved” black women is going to change the mind of someone who chooses to hold a negative narrow-minded view of black women. There have been “properly behaved” black women since the day we landed on the shores of this country in chains. Our behavior has NOTHING to do with existing racist attitudes. Choosing to believe such foolishness is like a rape-victim thinking “Maybe I wouldn’t have been raped if only I had worn a longer skirt.”
The line of thinking that this article espouses takes the blame off of women who are choosing the wrong men. Many men do not pressure a woman to sleep with her on a first date. If you consistently run into men who do, then you are choosing the wrong men. Period. Sure, it might be nice if that Dirty Dog who cheated on you and broke your heart had been raised in a different fashion and turned out a different way – but he didn’t. I would bet that it was the way his barely-there father raised him – to view women as objects – that is the problem – not that sex is too readily available. In that case, then perhaps you need to start dating men who were raised differently. Step WAY outside your comfort zone and meet some new men. If you don’t feel like you “should have to”, well then, that is on you – not on promiscuous women.
Promiscuous women have been around since the dawn of time – it was just kept more hush-hush a generation ago. Your grandmother might blab on and on about how perfect women and men were back in the day, but she will take to her grave the fact that every few months your grandpa stayed over at his mistresses house, and that she had to endure the gossip every Sunday morning. Just because it wasn’t talked about didn’t mean promiscuity wasn’t going on in the “olden days”.
@Sunshine789 Well said, well said.
@Sunshine789 You’ve put my thoughts into words far more better than I could. Bravo. Thank you for raising the question of how the man was raised to view women instead of what women have done to cause this behavior. That line of thinking falls in uncomfortably close with the same beliefs held by victim-blamers.
@Kitt_Kat @Sunshine789 “…raising the question of how the man was raised to view women instead of what women have done to cause this behavior.”
I agree with you that raising boys into men who are respectful of women is of great importance and is probably the most important factor. However, I believe that Elegance makes a great point about the behavior of *some* women. We didn’t get here just because men are failing … too many women have participated and coddled these BOYS and given us the culture that we have today.
Women have the greater power … they can say “NO.” Fair or not, and even though sometimes it doesn’t seem like it, men’s behavior is often a direct result of what women let them get away with. This does NOT excuse bad male behavior and I as a man hold them MORE responsible … but it DOES take two to tango.
@DWB @Kitt_Kat I totally understand what you are saying, DWB, but I just can’t agree with you. You said:
“I agree with you that raising boys into men who are respectful of women is of great importance and is probably the most important factor.”
So since we all agree on this, why aren’t we addressing it?
“…men’s behavior is often a direct result of what women let them get away with.”
We are letting them get away with the whole enchilada by trying to control other women, rather than looking at male behavior!
And you say:
“Women have the greater power … they can say “NO.””
Respectfully, this is complete BS. As soon as you accept the fact that a man cannot say “no”, you infantalize him. Men are always complaining about being emasculated, but here is one example of emasculation where many fall quiet.
Many men CAN and DO say “no”, and those are the ones most often in committed relationships.
I may not agree with Elegance, but I think I can understand the pain of where she is coming from. Back in my dating days, I dated men who were unfaithful, and often it was tempting to get mad at the other woman, rather than get mad at my man for being a dog, or get mad at myself for not being strong enough to throw him out. This is a Meta version of the same scenario. Women get so frustrated from their failed relationships that they want to blame other women for “giving it up” so easily.
The crazy part is – we have tried it already and it does not work!!! Women’s sexual behavior has been controlled and restricted since the beginning of time, yet some men still find a way to sleep around! Some men are still sexually insatiable! Why aren’t we looking to try something different like having men critique the bad behavior of other men, or accept that – no matter what – some men and women will ALWAYS want to sleep around – and there is nothing to be done about it. Luckily for some of us, some men and women will NOT want to sleep around so much either:)
@Sunshine789 @DWB @Kitt_Kat
I have to agree with you. Seriously. I mean…
“Respectfully, this is complete BS. As soon as you accept the fact that a man cannot say “no”, you infantalize him. Men are always complaining about being emasculated, but here is one example of emasculation where many fall quiet.
Many men CAN and DO say “no”, and those are the ones most often in committed relationships.”
@DWB @Sunshine789 Of course there are things women do that don’t help the situation, however, I believe a few promiscuous women do not make for a culture of disrespectful men. I also stand by the assertion that men are capable of holding more agency for their actions(sexually) than we allow them to.
If we spend our time chiding women over their sexual behavior or even over what they did or did not do in the case of abuse and assault, we reinforce that men are less to blame. So I agree with your point about coddling boys, which I suppose is what I’m really getting down to here, but I don’t think it’s promiscuous women that do the coddling so much as parents, friends, relatives, even strangers who are both male and female.
For instance, when a boy talks about what a ‘nice guy’ he is and how women are bitches because they aren’t rewarding his treating them like human beings(what a novel concept!!) with sex or relationships, many guys and girls help reinforce this thinking by joining in and talking about how she has friendzoned him and how stupid she is.
I also have to refer to the steubenville rape case, where the mother of one of the boys who’s been linked to the rape and the so-called ‘rape crew’ is an attorney or something of the sort, and encouraged the girls family not to press charges! Also, Judge Jacqueline Hatch told a woman who’d been groped at a bar by a policeman that she should have not gone to the bar or something like that, instead of rightfully delivering the punishment where it needed to go- to the awful policeman. I believe it’s cases like that that reinforces men thinking that no matter what they do, they deserve sex from a woman, as opposed to promiscuous women reinforcing that
@Kitt_Kat @DWB “but I don’t think it’s promiscuous women that do the coddling so much as parents, friends, relatives, even strangers who are both male and female.”
THIS! PREACH IT!!
“Also, Judge Jacqueline Hatch told a woman who’d been groped at a bar by a policeman that she should have not gone to the bar or something like that, instead of rightfully delivering the punishment where it needed to go- to the awful policeman.”
YES!!!
@Sunshine789@Kitt_Kat ”
So since we all agree on this, why aren’t we addressing it?”
My wife and I ARE addressing it … we are drilling it in his head that girls are special, a gift from GOD and deserving of special treatment and I show my love and respect for his mother CONSTANTLY to teach him how a real woman SHOULD be treated. Later, as Elegant and others have noted, feminists will tell him that men and women are NO different and should be treated the same … I pray that he pays more attention to his mother and I than them and the culture that they have created.
“We are letting them get away with the whole enchilada by trying to control other women, rather than looking at male behavior!”
Who is “we?” I am teaching him that he is ultimately responsible for his own actions and has no one to blame but himself. That still does not change the fact that we, as men and women, have influence on each other and it’s not like women have NO responsibility in the matter. I just try to teach him to be careful … a similar lesson I teach my daughters.
“As soon as you accept the fact that a man cannot say “no”, you infantalize him.”
I never said that men have NO power, I just admitted that despite outward appearances, WOMEN have MUCH greater power than they (and men) want to believe. So much of what men do is based upon pleasing women … we just do a DAMN good job playing it off, lying about it — especially to ourselves — and trying to deny women your power, grace and worth.
It’s not like all these men are cheating with a stable of the same 5 women.
But yes, men ARE weaker when it comes to sex … it is surely my greatest weakness!
Please help me understand how and why men are weaker when it comes to sex Also, does this “weakness” excuse their actions? I really don’t get it.
Thinking like this is why women are typically blamed for everything when it comes to sex. Women are suppose to know better and be stronger when it comes to sex while poor helpless men can’t help their weakness.
Not buying it but I would love to understand how and why they are weaker.
@DWB @Kitt_Kat “I never said that men have NO power, I just admitted that despite outward appearances, WOMEN have MUCH greater power than they (and men) want to believe. So much of what men do is based upon pleasing women … we just do a DAMN good job playing it off, lying about it — especially to ourselves — and trying to deny women your power, grace and worth.”
“But yes, men ARE weaker when it comes to sex … it is surely my greatest weakness!”
Nope, nope, nope. I know you think you are being nice, but it is really very harmful in the long-run. Please take women off the pedestal. And hold yourself up to a higher standard and take responsibility for your ability to control your sexual nature, thanks.
They aren’t weaker, it’s just that sexual behavior of men has been given a pass, so they don’t feel the societal pressure or expectation of “controlling themselves.”
@NicoleJB At some point I’m going to get around to writing a book review on “Challenging Casanova: Beyond the Stereotype of the Promiscuous Young Male” by Andrew Smiler. I heard about it over at Hooking Up Smart (the website).
Basically, the book challenges the stereotype that all men care about is sex and that they aren’t looking for an emotional as well as sexual connection with one special woman.
For most, hooking up is just a phase. Something they do to get through undergrad or grad school; they hook up because they still want sex but aren’t interested in a relationship at the moment. Folks hook up for all sorts of reasons. Some people hook up because they don’t know how to get the relationship they desire. But, in the end, the overwhelming majority of people want to get into a committed relationship with someone whom they deem special–yes, even men want this.
@Jamila @NicoleJB I wish people would realize that. It really does piss some men off when they say men are unemotional and crap..
Kenyatta: “Please help me understand how and why men are weaker when it comes to sex Also, does this “weakness” excuse their actions? I really don’t get it.”
Please don’t misunderstand me or put words in my mouth, I NEVER said men should be given a pass — the opposite in fact — I believe that men should be held to a HIGHER standard.
Men and women are wired differently … men more physical and visual … women more emotional and sensual. It’s the way we were created (evolved if you prefer.)
Men and women both struggle … we just have different struggles! 🙂
@Sunshine789 @Kitt_Kat “Please take women off the pedestal. And hold yourself up to a higher standard and take responsibility for your ability to control your sexual nature…”
I’ll agree with (and meet you) half way and continue to force my standards even higher and battle my flesh to whip it into submission. 🙂
@heyimPearlilikefries @Jamila @NicoleJB Oh Jamila please do! I know I will wind up disagreeing with some of your analysis, but I know that you will teach me something and enlighten me.
It’s getting late and I must turn off the computer, but as much as I LOVE sex and as much as it means to me, my wife is truly my BEST FRIEND and the bond that we share is SO much more important to me!
@Sunshine789 *slow claps* So on point, this comment.
@Sunshine789 “Your grandmother might blab on and on about how perfect women and men were back in the day, but she will take to her grave the fact that every few months your grandpa stayed over at his mistresses house, and that she had to endure the gossip every Sunday morning. ”
THIS RIGHT HERE!!
Blaming feminist and women who enjoy casual sex for men expecting sex takes any responsibility off the men in this situation. Your argument makes it seem as if men are so stupid that they can’t help themselves. This is nonsense!!! Whether or not a man is willing to wait for a women is based completely on that man , his character, and how he feels about that woman.
Also, this idea that women who enjoy casual sex are stealing and
marrying all the “good” men by maybelying about their sex number is ridiculous. When it’s all said and done if a man loves you and wants to marry you the last thing he cares about is how man people you’ve had sex with. It’s none of his damn business anyway.
At Sunshine and others who are excitedly proclaiming how THEY THEMSELVES have never experienced the “dreaded BW percpetions”. GUESS WHAT? Neither have I!
Neither have I had a problem dating b/c I don’t carry myself that way either. AND? A lot of BW do not carry themselves in the manner we are often perceived on a greater scale. AND? Has that changed these perceptions? NO. WHY B/C obviously there are a lot more BW NOT LIKE US (what i like to call THE NORM) who are making their marks in society and in the hearts and minds of the average person.
So now we are going to sit here an pretend that the NORM of anything doesn’t affect people on a more microscopic level?
We are going to sit and and pretend BW don’t have an image problem that HAS and DOES affect even the minority scores of BW who do not even fit into those categories???
LMAO.
ooooooo kkkkkkkkkk!
Are we doing to sit here and call CHRISTELYN a liar b/c she created this blog out of a need for more and more voices of Black women who want to date interracially to be HEARD and to come together in a climate where more Black women are extolling the virtues of being a Black man only woman and how that HAS affected perceptions of BW in terms of interracial dating?
So when MASSES upon MASSES of BW publicly declare their love for all things Black and MALE it doesn’t affect the minority of BW who have a love for all things WHite, Asian, and other?
How many times have we heard from scores of NOn BM that the main reason they may not go after BW is b/c they believe that many of us do not want to date out of our race? UHM where do you think they get that from? The MINORITY of BW who are sitting quietly and not saying isht? ORRRRRRRRR – the NORM (you know those nothing but a BM BW) who speak and declare loudly their love for BM only?
WHY y’all even on this his blog then??? This blog was created for the very reason y’all are arguing against. its a SAFE HAVEN for like minded BW (i.e. NOT THE NORM) who have for decades been feeling like OUTCASTS unable to express their positive views on interracial dating and marriage b/c the NORM is that BW do not even think about this and damn sure do not want to participate in it.
Just b/c YOU haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean a great number of other BW are not experiencing this as well. And doesn’t make it any less of something you should try to focus on and change.
I can sit al day and talk about how “well BM never dissed me growing u b/c I fit into their ideal of what a desirable BW is being lighter”. But why do that? I mean I care about the overall plight of BW so that means even though I am not DARK SKINNED BW and have never experienced what its like to be overlooked by my OWN RACE OF MEN bc of my darker shade, I can UNDERSTAND AND EMPATHIZE and ACKNOWLEDGE the realness of this PROBLEM for dark skinned BW. Just b/c it didn’t affect me does that mean it doesn’t exist?
A GREAt example of this “ME ME ME” mentality and how it DOESN’T work is in online dating and dating in general. You would not be hard pressed to find MOST men of any race say that overall they feel BW are not as feminine acting and “nice” compared to other races of women.
Are all these men KKK racists riding on horses with WHite sheets who say this? NO. They are real men who have real perceptions b/c of the NORM.
A lot of BW who do not fit negative stereotypes are still simply being overlooked b/c of their race DUE TO perceptions about THE NORM BW that are usually not very appealing. Even if its simply the idea that other races of men are under the impression that *MOST* BW do not want to date Interracially so they do not even bother.
See how that little thing called “ME ME ME” doesn’t always work to your benefit b/c of LARGER and bigger perceptions? of course this doesn’t mean that a BW cannot and has not found love online. It just means its a LOT HARDER for the average BW to get hits and clicks compared to other races of women who have better perceptions even if these women themselves do not fit those positive perceptions.
I am so sick of BW rambling on about how in THEIR OWN PERSONAL LIVES this is not a reality. UH AND? Does that mean it doesn’t exist on a greater scale?
LOOK. If BW like you want to continue to live in your cushy lil bubble, by all means DO YOU. But DO NOT come to me acting as if I choose to also live int hat bubble or vacuum. I look at the BIGGER PICTURE and how the bigger picture is usually a microscopic and how it affects on a smaller level. You don’t and others don’t. OK.
@Neecy Girl, bye.
@Neecy Chile, please breathe! I didn’t mean to get you going like that….but since I did…
“How many times have we heard from scores of NOn BM that the main reason they may not go after BW is b/c they believe that many of us do not want to date out of our race?”
What I do not understand is : WHY ARE YOU WASTING YOUR TIME TRYING TO CHANGE THE MIND OF A-HOLES RATHER THAN DATING GOOD MEN? Forgive my caps, but dang! It just seems HELLA crazy to twist yourself into knots trying to herd promiscuous women like cats into not sleeping around just so you can change the mind of a handful of racist WM and ignorant BW hating BM, when you could just be dating GOOD, QUALITY BM AND WM WHO ALREADY LIKE YOU THE WAY YOU ARE. We are talking about dating in this scenario, not changing the minds of the masses. Changing the minds of the masses takes GENERATIONS. Finding a husband takes one trip to the right hipster bar in a miniskirt. You choose your priorities, chica.
You wanna be a hater? Fine. Keep yelling at promiscuous chicks. You wanna good man? Stop fishing in the same old fishing hole. The existence of this blog and the NUMEROUS amounts of women posting wedding pics is proof that despite a few buttheads, somehow, the promiscuous ladies have not ruined all the men.
You (btw, all general “you”) are deflecting the bigger problem of picking terrible men, onto promiscuous women. EPIC dodge of self-responsibility, hon.
@Sunshine789 ohhh. I’m so sorry my whole point went over your head. Oh well. it happens. (and i actually did spell check on that one) lol
@Neecy No, honey. I got your point. I just let it fly on by on purpose…
@Sunshine789 You’re fighting the good fight, hon. But when you’re making a nuanced argument with folks who frown on nuance, there will never be any understanding.
” We are talking about dating in this scenario, not changing the minds of the masses.”
Well, yes, but clearly, keeping the conversation on what we’re actually effing talking about is impossible. Someone upthread starting randomly talking about CHEATING. IN CAPS! Because casual sex and cheating are totally the same thing. As long as nuance is lost, and every conversation has to bloat out to include every single thing, your very well thought out points will be lost. I respect your efforts, though. Applaud them, even. As you know 😉
@Neecy And for the record, I was never promiscuous in general, but I did give it up fairly early on to my now husband;)
@Sunshine789 OK!! Thanks for sharing that 😉
@Sunshine789 @Neecy
That is great! No one is knocking what worked for YOU…but it does not work for all. Let’s not act like that is the norm.
@Lexi88 @Neecy There is no norm. You are inventing a norm where promiscuous women ruin it for all. That world does not exist.
@Sunshine789 @Neecy
Promiscuous women didn’t ruin a thing for me… I have mine!
@Lexi88 @Neecy I am glad for you! But that is the whole point of this silly article!
@Neecy Oh, wait. I almost missed this….
“WHY y’all even on this his blog then??? This blog was created for the very reason y’all are arguing against. its a SAFE HAVEN for like minded BW (i.e. NOT THE NORM) who have for decades been feeling like OUTCASTS unable to express their positive views on interracial dating and marriage b/c the NORM is that BW do not even think about this and damn sure do not want to participate in it.”
Child, please. Everyone has a different reason for coming to this site, and for dating interracially. And despite it all, people are successfully swirling – because they are getting in where they fit in, rather that foolishly dating the wrong men!
The post was written to discuss something that is happening throughout the community. For the small number of women who were able to get the ring even after jumping into bed soon after dating…. More power to you! But please understand, that is not the norm. Men seldom marry women whom they think “gave it up too easily”.
If you look outside of BBW you will hear stories of women shacking up with men for 2 million years and the only ring she sees, is the one around the shackles, dude has put on her. Because he knows no matter what he does or does not do, she’s not going anywhere. More women are shacking up and having babies out of wedlock, because it is now the “norm” to test drive everything before we buy it. Young girls are giving it up and getting pregnant (some even plan it) because it is the “norm”. Everything is accepted, normalize to support poor choices. Whatever you choose, no matter how badly it affects you later or your community … just do it! It’s your life, a “you gotta do you” mentality.
I’m not trying to “clock” your panties or briefs. And, I’m not here to judge anyone’s decision to screw or not to screw. But, I’m not blind to the statistics. While we may want to believe the only reason so many black women are single is because of “the brothas”, I know otherwise. Women want to give their boyfriends, husband privileges, but cry foul when he won’t put a ring on it. Men will do to you what you allow AND what they have gotten away with in previous relationships. YES, you must be prudent and take responsibility for YOUR actions and express your desires early on. But, looking at it on a larger scale, the question should be why… why do men expect to get in a women’s panties over a plate of food? Because they’ve tried it in the past and it worked.
I’m far from a self-righteous prude. I love it when women/men talk about sexual freedom and inhibition, like sex was created by men and it’s something they’ve perfected. I’m all for exploring, backbreaking, toes curling responsible sexual encounters, because it was created to be such. Choosing to have sex responsibly does not make me a prude, any more than sleeping with random men, make you a slut.
The choice is simple, do what works…. Successfully. If you’re 30+, wishing to marry, yet can’t get anyone to put a ring on it, but lord knows you’re not a virgin….. Something is NOT working. You can’t keep doing the same things,yet expect different results.
Why are we so quick to advise young women to have sex freely, explore and embrace their sexuality outside of an actual LTR or marriage?
All this free sex is not working for black women. It may be working for women of other races and the few here on BBW. But, looking at the rate we are getting STD’s, single parenting, the massive number of never married black women with a bunch of kids… We need to go back to the basics. Grandma may have witnessed Granpa going to his mistress house once a week, but grandma had the ring, benefits, home and the name. I’m sorry, my vajayjay is not for free, there is a price tag that comes with my coochie.
@Lexi88 BADA BING LEXI!! VERY WELL SAID!!!
@Lexi88 “We need to go back to the basics. Grandma may have witnessed Granpa going to his mistress house once a week, but grandma had the ring, benefits, home and the name. I’m sorry, my vajayjay is not for free, there is a price tag that comes with my coochie.”
So screw love, and go back to a time when marriage was a financial transaction? Nope, not for me, honey. And not for most women.
@Sunshine789
Where did I say anything about “screw love”?
@Lexi88 You did just reduce a marriage to a financial transaction, akin to that of a prostitute. A price tag on a coochie? Hmmmm….
@Sunshine789
Oh please…so now desiring a man who can provide and take care of his woman and family is prostitution? …..smh what is going on?!
@Lexi88 Desiring a man who can provide is different than a price tag on a coochie! That was trifling, but I know you were joking. What if a man wants a woman who can provide as well? The world is a different place now.
@Sunshine789
Yes, times are different in terms of financial responsibility. I bring just as much to the table as my partner is expected to bring. But please believe, I don’t do BROKE!
@Lexi88 But what do you have left if you END UP broke? Are you going to leave your man?
@Sunshine789
Why would we end up broke? I live UNDER my means. But if that should happen, WE will build it back up. The operative word is WE.
@Lexi88 Some people are unfortunate enough to have special-needs kids that drain their savings. Some people become disabled. Some people lose their jobs or have drug addictions or become victims of a bad economic market, or get swindled by bad people… etc…
@Sunshine789 @Lexi88
I see where you are going with this. Yes married people may go out of there way to create back-up plans and try to prevent things from happening to them financially, BUT sh*t happens and what are you gonna do when it does? That’s when you have to rely on love to get you by.
And not just financially but drug use to. Although… I wouldn’t be able to do it because I fail to see how that can happen.. how you just start using drugs an mess up the marriage like that? I can’t see it happening but that’s being irresponsible.. ain’t like getting in an accident or something.
@Sunshine789 @Lexi88
Oh wait… I got it now. I know some people who get hooked on prescription drugs when they didn’t mean too. So I get it.
@heyimPearlilikefries @Lexi88 Yeah, I know a few people who fell into a depression after a family member died and then tried some things that they normally would not have… it sucks. Luckily their spouses dragged them kicking and screaming to the other side though:)
@heyimPearlilikefries @Lexi88 I am in my second marriage, and the one thing I can say for sure is that a LOT of stuff happens that you could NEVER imagine nor plan for. Just strap in tight!
@Sunshine789 @Lexi88 I totally get your point now LOL
You could do all that planning and something devastating happens and love is the only way you could get through it. Even if you had all the money in the world… things happen and love is the only thing that can get you both through it…
@Sunshine789 @Lexi88
I think marriage is a financial arrangement. “Love” is how it’s marketed to the masses. But the 2 are not the same thing, and one does not require the other.
@NicoleJB @Lexi88 “I think marriage is a financial arrangement.”
I completely disagree. I hope that works out for you….
@Sunshine789 @NicoleJB @Lexi88
Marriage for me has very little to do with love. You may love someone but that dos NOT mean you two will be good for marriage. Marriage is very hard work. And people need to start thinking about the unemotional side before they even get married because unemotional reasons are why marriages end in the first place.
Marriage is not a financial arrangement but most married couples have more money than single people.
My life is brilliant.
Thanks for caring.
@NicoleJB @Sunshine789
I don’t know about the whole financial agreement thing….
@Sunshine789
My life is brilliant.
Thanks for caring.
@heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB @Lexi88 GIrl, you do you, but a lot of people that have gone down that “financial arrangement” road got a nasty shock when their man lost his job or became disabled, or died without a penny in the bank. That is when you need LOVE to get through the tough times! No one said not to talk about the nitty-gritty, but it is not just some unemotional transaction. Not by a long shot!
@Lexi88 @Sunshine789 @heyimPearlilikefries
I’m sorry y’all – mea culpa – I should have said that marriage is a BUSINESS arrangement. Not financial.
One in which each member of the legal partnership has his or her duties, and a financial plan for both of them… even if that plan is sometimes “we broke.” lol
I do believe that love and marriage don’t necessarily go hand in hand, but “love” is how marriage is sold.
@NicoleJB I care, NicoleJB:)
@Sunshine789 @NicoleJB @Lexi88
I do agree with you but there are a lot of things to go with a marriage. It’s a whole bunch of rights and legal benefits of a marriage. If it wasn’t then why is it so many rights? A lot of the things you listed has to do with irresponsibility or unfortunate things that can be protected legally. I’m not saying it’s an arrangement but you cannot ignore the unemotional said of marriage. There is a lot of responsibly to go with a marriage!
@heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 @Lexi88 Yes, and a lot of great relationships crumble under the weight of that responsibility.
@NicoleJB @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789
What do you mean? Responsibilities are EVERYWHERE. Relationships crumble because we go into them with rose covered glasses. And run the minute he/she show a sign of weakness. We need to fight to keep it like we would any other relationship.
@Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789
I mean that when people get married, expectations change, sometimes overnight. The societal idea of what it means to be “husband” and “wife” often become more important than the relationship between the 2 individuals. Other people put their expectations on you as well.
@NicoleJB @Sunshine789 @Lexi88
And if marriage was just about love then why would this “marriage” exist? Why do gays.. who already love the sh*t out of each other want marriage so much? I’m gonna find that Evia article where she breaks all that ish down.
@heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 @Lexi88 I didn’t say marriage was just about love. Was this directed toward me? I don’t even believe that.
@NicoleJB @Sunshine789 @Lexi88
No it wasn’t directed at you. sowwy lol
@NicoleJB @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789
That’s it is why it is important get to know a person outside of sex. Sex has a way of making a person look a lot better than he/she really is.
As far as other peoples expectations…. The two people who took the vows are the only two opinions that matter. If you do want outside input NEVER seek it from angry “men are no good” women. Relationship questions should be asked to HAPPY couples. You can’t ask your single can’t get or keep a man single friends about MARRIED issues.
@NicoleJB @Sunshine789 @Lexi88
wait it was.. I was adding to what you said.
@heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 @Lexi88 lol, ok. no problem.
Here are the benefits of marriage!
http://people.howstuffworks.com/marriage1.htm
@heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB @Sunshine789
Gays wanting marriage is a whole other issue….. I could go on for days. But will leave it alone for now.
@Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789
Well, yes – it’s important to get to know people outside of sex. I’m going to assume that we are all on the same page with that.
I also believe that in theory, the only 2 people that matter are the people in the relationship, but as I said before – many good relationships crumble under the weight of the expectations that come with marriage. I’m not judging – it’s real.
@heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 @Lexi88
I can’t imagine where I said marriage was just about love, because I don’t believe that. I know I said that they don’t go hand-in-hand, and that marriage is usually “sold” by tying it to “love.”
@Lexi88 @NicoleJB @Sunshine789
Oh naww don’t want to derail like hell LOL
I just said because it proves (in my eyes) that it’s just not about love. I seen on the news where these two men lived together for 50 years and loved each other for so much… but can’t get all the legalities they deserve out of a marriage… GTFOOHWTBS.
woosah..
@Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 It’s not complicated – they want the rights, respect, acknowledgement, and validation that comes along with the marriage certificate.
@heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB @Lexi88 Because marriage is an expression of love. That is why. And being in love does not not mean that you don’t discuss reality. They both go hand in hand. Why do you think it is one or the other?
@Sunshine789 @NicoleJB @Lexi88
I didn’t say it was one or the other. I feel that the other side has to be talked about too.
@Lexi88 @NicoleJB @heyimPearlilikefries “f you do want outside input NEVER seek it from angry “men are no good” women. Relationship questions should be asked to HAPPY couples. You can’t ask your single can’t get or keep a man single friends about MARRIED issues.”
That is the best piece of marriage advice I have ever seen.
@NicoleJB @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789
Marriage is about love. At the end of the day, if you don’t love the person you marry nothing will keep you together. Money buys companionship and a whole lot of other things, but believe me it does not buy love.
@Sunshine789 @NicoleJB @Lexi88
If you read my comments you would also see that I don’t feel it is one or the other. It’s about both.
@heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB @Lexi88 But who wasn’t talking about it? I don’t think anyone is debating that marriage is hard!
@heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB @Lexi88 Well, that we can all agree on:)
@heyimPearlilikefries @Lexi88 @NicoleJB “Oh naww don’t want to derail like hell LOL”
Hahahahahahaha!!!!!
@Sunshine789 @heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB
OMG!!! WE actually agree on something…I need a drink lol
@Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @NicoleJB Cheers!
@Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789
Marriage is about “partnership,” and that partnership may or may not include love.
You haven’t seen this??
@Sunshine789 @Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries Bottoms up! Bye y’all. Heading to the gym…
@NicoleJB @Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 I haven’t’ seen it but I’m pretty sure it exists. Marriage is better when two people are crazy for each other, but it’s even more amazing when the two are responsible and have set plans and back up plans for each other. That’s why so many men wait until they are stable until they get married… well people period.
@NicoleJB @Sunshine789 @Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries Git cho workout on!
@NicoleJB @Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries @Sunshine789 I am sure it CAN, but it sounds sucky to me…
@NicoleJB @Sunshine789 @Lexi88 @heyimPearlilikefries I need to go work out too…
@Lexi88 “Why are we so quick to advise young women to have sex freely, explore and embrace their sexuality outside of an actual LTR or marriage?”
With all due respect, I just have not seen anyone do this here. Has anyone actually advised young women to do any of this?
And the truth is – each of us is different. Yes, we may be “racially” black, and physically female, but our lives, circumstances, and relationships are all different. I would hope that we would govern ourselves according to what we think is best, and advise others according to what they need. Not what WE think they ought to need, but according to what they actually ask for. Sometimes that question will be “how do I stay abstinent amidst pressure from men?” Sometimes it will be “where can I get some condoms?” Should we call the former a prude, and the latter a whore? I just don’t think put-downs and panty-policing is a healthy/ effective to reach and assist people. And what about the men? Who’s holding the men responsible? Who is teaching the boys?
When I was in college, there was a guy – upstanding by all accounts: intelligent, hard-working, good grades, people liked him, and he was good-looking. I had known him from “around the way” for some time. In time, he told me he wanted to cook dinner for me. He did, we had a great time, and when I got ready to leave, he picked me up, carried me into his bedroom and threw me on to the bed, with some comment about having gone through all the trouble to cook for me. I told him that I wasn’t amused, I had no intention of sleeping with him. He tried to convince me. I was not convinced, and was really in shock at his behavior. He let me go, then followed me home, and forced his way inside of my apartment when I opened the door. I told him to leave, and he stood inside my door until I got to the phone and started calling the cops. Then he left. Thank God.
He TRULY thought I was supposed to “put out” because he cooked me dinner. I don’t blame women in his past who did have sex for a meal, I don’t blame his parents, or his upbringing – I blame him. Had I been raped, HE ALONE would have been responsible.
@Lexi88 99 percent of women (and men) have sex before marriage.
If a woman wants to get married she shouldn’t agree to live with a man for 50-11 years without discussing a timeline for marriage. A woman failing to act in such a way as to attain her goals (i.e. living with someone who won’t marry her) has nothing to do with how many miles she put–or didn’t put–on her vagina.
@Jamila “(i.e. living with someone who won’t marry her) has nothing to do with how many miles she put–or didn’t put–on her vagina.”, bwaaahahahahahahahaha, gurl, that’s so wrong, but, unfortunately, so true (not to make light, but, still, so true).
@Lexi88 “Grandma may have witnessed Granpa going to his mistress house once a week, but grandma had the ring, benefits, home and the name.”
Grandma was often deeply unhappy and the only reason she didn’t leave her trifling husband was because she didn’t have the financial resources to take care of her children on her own. When you can’t stand on your own two feet financially you have to take whatever the other person puts out
I plan to be able to make enough money to buy my own ring, buy my own house, and whatever job I plan to make my career will most definitely pay me benefits. Also, I plan on keeping my own name, thank you very much.
If I marry a man it will be because I am madly in love with him, want to spend the rest of my life with him, and want to raise a family with him. For me, no other reason’s will do.
@Jamila
By your own ring?! @Jamila You’re going to give me a stroke…. wheredeydodatat? LOL!
You should marry for love, I sure did. But I can’t call the mortgage company and tell them my hubby loves me, can that love be used for this months payment.
Financial stability is important for BOTH persons.
@Lexi88 @Jamila LOL – Jamila, please have enough money to buy your own ring, but don’t do it! Just buy his ring, lol.
@Lexi88 No, I mean’t that I want to be able to buy a ring, get a house, or pay for anything else I want in life–whether I get a man or not. I don’t want to not be able to afford a nice ring unless I can get a man to give me one.
@Jamila @Lexi88 I feel you. I’ve been that way since childhood. My grandmother used to laugh at me, but I made her proud.
@Lexi88 “Why are we so quick to advise young women to have sex freely, explore and embrace their sexuality outside of an actual LTR or marriage?”
I see nothing wrong with this as long as it is done responsibly and that’s where the issue is. They aren’t taught that. They teach unrealistic BS to teenagers and young people… and think a whole bunch of ‘don’t dos’ are going to interfere with all those raging hormones.
In regards to “whatchooo gonna do about it”. LOL Seriously? We are all obvoously very intelligent women here even though we may disagree. That being said, its pretty much safe to say that an intelligent woman knows she cannot MAKE anyone do anything.
BUT. The fact that someone is even VOICING out about this phenomenon is DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Of course I, nor anyone can go around shackiling women’s vaginas closed to accomplish a goal.
When people write and publicly voice an opinion about somehting – they are doing something! They are putting a differnt POV oit there. A different line of reasoning. A different way to approach somthething. IOW’s they are giving people somehting to think about that they may have never thought of.
B/C you do not know who could be viewing and reading and who your words may have impacted in a positive way for them to think the next time they spread eagle for a stranger(s) and how that may not only possibly impact thier lives negativley as a woman, but overall how they may be contributing to the larger problem.
Its not always about making everybody change. its about standing up and letting the world know there are OTHER OPTIONS for women.
As far as men getting off the hook. A man cannot CHEAT alone. A man cannot get laid (at least with a REAL vagina) ALONE. It takes a willing woman to open her legs and say “YES!” for any man to get what he wants sexually. So yes the person who is the GATEKEEPER of sex is the person with the power to make the change. WOMEN are typically the gatekeepers of sex b/c often times a man cannot get any if a woman is not willing to give it to him.
You are correct a man cannot cheat alone and all that and women are the gate keepers. Therefore, if a woman chooses casual sex that is her choice. What she wants to do is her business. Is she responsible for now changing social norms? No.
Sexual norms have to do with more then any individual woman’s desire to engage is casual sex. This article is too simplistic by blaming feminist and these women. What about the overall culture. Sexual norm are a result of cultural and societal norms.
Where do you think cultural and societal norms stem from?
Individuals on a greater scale DOING the same thing; participating in a popular widely accepted way of doing, thinking and/or behaving.
So YES every individual woman’s decision to have casual NSA sex with a bunch of dudes does affect the sexual market. HOW? cause the more women who are not demanding certain commitments or even things before they just sleep with a man, creates a breakdown in the need for men to want to seek stable relationships to be afforded the benefit of having sexual intercourse with a woman.
In the past (like 50’s) and such. We had stronger family and more in tact family units (yes even Black folks). because the norm was NOT for women to engage in casual sex with random men, not to have babies with men who were not her husband and who she was not somewhat involved with on a more serious level. because of that MEN made commitments much quicker and longer KNOWING that they would not for the most part receive sex outside of a stable relationship b/c MOST women demanded some form of commitment based relationship before giving it up.
Therefore you had stronger family structures and more men willing to marry and settle down b/c YES men want sex and they will go with whatever the current STRUCTURE is that is set up for them to get it.
If that structure is a free for all casual sex frenzy with MOST women, they know they can get that without having to do anything (i.e. why buy the cow when the milk is free). if that structure is “oh hell nawz you are not getting any b/c I do not know you like that!” and most women are falling in that same line of thinning, MEN will adjust accordingly.
THE gatekeepers of anything hold the power. Men are typically the gatekeepers of commitment. A man would not be hard pressed to find most women who would not want a solid loving relationship with a man she is attracted to. Just like most women would not be hard pressed to find a man that is not willing to have sex with her is she is even REMOTELY attractive to him. That is how that gatekeeper thing works.
I get it now. We aren’t talking about the same thing. You are talking about marriage and stable families and I am talking about love. Before the women’s liberation movement most people married for financial security today marriage is a lot more about love. I am not buying your argument. The reality of the situation is that when a man is ready to settle down he will and it really doesn’t matter how many women he had casual sex with. If a woman wants to settle down she needs to look for a man who is in that place where he wants to settle down.
No you are nit picking nuances of what my whole point is.
So people make comittmetns to each other and get married simply for financial reasons?
The whole point is, obviously women are not PICKING based on love but rather who makes thier vagina tingle. THAT IS FINE. but there is a greater consequence that comes with just screwing EVERY MAN that gives you vagina tingles. You don’t GET LOVE.
Obviously you believe marriage and commitment is based in finances. LOL M’kay. Your right who am I to say otherwise.
When i think of comittmetn and marriage i am coming from a place that two people for the most part got to know each other on a level that led them to intimacy in a more LOVING fashion than just hoping in bed with every Tom Dick and Harry that gets her juices flowing.
That a woman VETTED a man and made sure he was there for more than just a piece of arse. That a woman cared enough about her body and well being that she would prefer to sleep only with a man that has shown REAL interest in her as a human being and not a pice of meat to be had.
I would wager the scores of Black women who open their legs for MEN and have OOW kids are not experiencing LOVE (neither are their children who are being robbed) on the level hat our ansectors did when the men actually stuck around MARRIED THEM and raised their children and provided for their families.
The point of this whole ARTICLE is to simply bring a different message other than “it be my vagina and i can sleep with whoever I want WHILE gaining all the other benefits I should receive in terms of comittmetn and respect from men”
For all actions there are consequences. You cannot have things both ways and until women get this through thier THICK hypocritical skulls, we will continue to see a breakdown in society’s family strucures and the quality of relationshiips between mena ndw omen in general.
If women for the most part want free for all casual sex frenzy freedom then women better be prepared for that kind of lifestye to affect the OVERALL relationship arena and QUALITY of relationship overall that men are willign to give to women in general.
THAT. IS. ALL
@Neecy I will make what I believe very plain so you have no trouble understanding. This post is not about marriage. It’s about casual sex. More often then not people don’t enter into these relationships looking for marriage. They are looking for sex, companionship, etc. If you are a women looking for a loving committed relationship DON’T have casual sex. If I am looking for a man to marry I am going to very quickly dismiss men who are looking for casual sex and go about my business looking for men of substance. I’m not going to make what other women looking for casual relationships my business and have a pity party worrying about how they are changing sexual norms The article states that what other women are doing is the business of the author and other women because they are ruining the expectations of men. My point is who cares. Sure they might be going along with what has become normalized behavior but how is whining about it going to help me find the loving partner I want? It isn’t. Therefore, what other women are doing isn’t my concern. This blog post is focused on a problem with no ideas for how to navigate this changing sexual landscape, or how to overcome these perceived issues. It’s about placing blame on others for ones perceived inability to find a committed relationship. The basic goal of this blog is to try and transcend the stereotypes associated with being a black woman to find the love we all deserve where it is. That same goes for sexual norms. Focus on your goal and find love where you can. Blaming feminist, promiscuous women, or stereotypes is not goin to help you meet that goal. It just keeps you focused on the problem.
@Neecy “So yes the person who is the GATEKEEPER of sex is the person with the power to make the change. WOMEN are typically the gatekeepers of sex b/c often times a man cannot get any if a woman is not willing to give it to him.”
This whole concept is problematic, and i think the root of all the disagreements on this thread. Half the women agree with you, and the other half (myself included) do not view male-female relations through this bartering, power-struggle, him vs her, give it or withhold it lens. Many of us are looking for relationships where we relate as equals, and not trying to hew back to some simple evo-psych anamalistic explanation.
@Sunshine789 “and the other half (myself included) do not view male-female relations through this bartering, power-struggle, him vs her, give it or withhold it lens. Many of us are looking for relationships where we relate as equals, and not trying to hew back to some simple evo-psych anamalistic explanation.”
LOL I have to give you a clap for that one b/c it sounds really good and fluffy. But guess what? We live in the real world. The real world where a WOMAN has to be responsible and smart about who she involves herself with intimately. That REQUIRES on some level a willingess to take part in the give it or withold it lens.
And if a woman is NOT CAREFUL about who she picks and chooses to enter into intimate relationships with, the results can be disastrous – HENCE the 70% of poor Black children who are born into the kinds of unions where Black women simply “didn’t want to barter, power struggle with a give it or withhold it lens”
That is the result of what happens when women do not take responsibility for their sexual lives and well being.
i don;t care about men and what they do. I care about the well being of women and the choices they make that end up hurting the lives of INNOCENT CHILDREN.
But the REALITY is what it is. A woman naively going out into the mating market place simply believing what you said sounds really good – IN THEORY. But whether you want to accept it or not, SEX will and AWAYS HAS BEEN a power struggle b/c it is simply somhting that comes with the nature of desire in both male and female. It is MEN for the most part who have sought sex more freely without comittment than women. This is not saying all men are seekign sex only. but anyone here would be a fool to say that the ONUS is NOT more on the woman to protect her sexual integrity (b/c of things like pregnancy) b/c usually it is the WOMAN left holding the bag and kid and/or disease when that man is no longer around b/c she didn;t vert properly and hold out much longer before getting to know this man and his intentions. need any proof of where this has worked? YEAH The Black community.
SEX Its the most basic and easiest act to partake in to receive temporary pleasure on both ends. How both genders GENRALLY go about seeking it, is another topic but is sorely different.
More than ever, it has for the most part been the FEMALE who has had the burden of protecting herself and making better sexual judgements, b/c of the bigger consequences faced if she doesn’t. Being left to raise a child alone creates a great burden ont he average woman who is not of means.
AIDS, HIV, all kinds of diseases are VERY REAL and often are affecting Black women n a greater level than any other women. So yes my message is to more BW HOLDING OUT b/c clearly the other way isn;t working to our benefit. now is it?
@Neecy @Sunshine789 I am not sure what you don’t get. IT IS NOT ONE WAY. For you what Sunshine 789 isn’t reality but for her it is. You live in the way that benefits you and let others do what they please. Your “real world” isn’t the only one or everyone’s. Your perspective is your own. If it works for you do it but it might not work for all. Guess what! Some women actually enjoy casual sex. They aren’t being tricked or fooled into it. They just might not be ready to settle down and want to have fun. That’s cool. Other women are in a space where they want to settle down. That is cool too. For you sex is about power, for others it isn’t. You carry on rationing out sex as you wish and let other women give it away like it’s going out of style.
Guess how many people you have control over? ONE
@Neecy “And if a woman is NOT CAREFUL about who she picks and chooses to enter into intimate relationships with, the results can be disastrous – HENCE the 70% of poor Black children who are born into the kinds of unions where Black women simply “didn’t want to barter, power struggle with a give it or withhold it lens””
Neecy, this is where you are getting slippery with your words. The problem is not that a woman “gave it up” in these relationships. The problem is that she didn’t use protection, or that she had unreasonable expectations for the relationship before getting to know the man.
Just because I am arguing against the premise of this article does not mean I am advocating for unsafe sex. Holding out does not protect you from AIDS if you hold out for a man who lies to you, then goes out and cheats behind your back! You are conflating several issues, much to the detriment of less careful readers….
@Neecy “Guess what! Some women actually enjoy casual sex. They aren’t being tricked or fooled into it. They just might not be ready to settle down and want to have fun.”
THIS! Thank you, Kenyatta! Every woman’s goal is not to get married. Now, if it is your goal, then sleeping around might not be the way to get to that goal, but don’t knock the other girls who clearly know what they want!
@Sunshine789
“Neecy, this is where you are getting slippery with your words. The problem is not that a woman “gave it up” in these relationships. The problem is that she didn’t use protection, or that she had unreasonable expectations for the relationship before getting to know the man.”
Something that would have a lower liklihood of happening HAD she spent more time in the vetting process. The reality adn fact is the MORE time a woman spends in the vetting process with a man, the greater the odds are (NOT A 100% guarantee but greater odds) that she can protect herself from being used or entering into a risky sexual relationship that will not benefit HER in the end. Protection or no protection.
OF COURSE There are no guarantees. We agree that just b/c a woman holds out for a man doesn’t mean she will avoid diseases or being left. But the fact that a woman took GREATER measures to protect herself by making sure the guy was at least plausibly someone of quality is the point.
There are no guarantees in ANYTHING related to love, sex and relationships. but we can take from what we know that if a woman makes bad choices in sexual mates the liklihood is that there will bemore consequences for her than a woman who took more time to vet and pick her intimate mate wisely.
@Sunshine789
At KENYATTA
NO I am not sure *YOU* get it.
This argument is not about controlling other women’s private parts. WHY can’t you guys get this!! LOL How hard is it to understand that no woman with half her brain matter is trying to control what other women do with their vaginas!
I don’t have a shackle to go around and clamp onto every females vagina and I don’t really care to. If a woman wants to spread eagle every hour on t he hour with a different dude, does that affect me on a smaller scale? NO. maybe on a bigger scale in the sense that the more women willing to spread eagle every hour on the hour means more men willing to see that women are not serious about wanting to be taken seriously for things other than what she has between her legs.
That means more men I gotta toss to the side b/c somehow he thought I was going to be like the rest. But is it affecting my vagina? NOPE! Am i the one dealign with most of the emotional baggage and damage that comes with being a floozie? NOPE! Am I the one having to get STD checks every other week? NOPE!
So you DO NOT GET IT what this discussion is really and merely about.
We are simply making a case that wen women make bad choices in sex, it creates bigger problems. FOR SOME OF US we believe those bigger problems are the breakdown in quality relationships between men and women in society. FOR SOME OF US that means that when women do not exercise better sexual judgement plenty of consequences follow that are mostly to the detriment of HERSELF and the poor offspring that come from some of these unions. HENCE the NWNW movement.
Too many BW are living life that all yall are advocating “is their business”. Well then you also disagree with the premise of NWNW b/c you advocate that a woman has a right to choose freely who she has casual sex with and whether she wants to have casual sex. WHCH IS 100% correct. But do you support that whether you can control it or not?
because if you do, then you have t support the results of that action which is 70% OOW birth rate that has also contributed to a whole other host of issues and problems int he Black woman’s lives and communities.
What is wrong with SIMPLY stating that these actions of women are creating bigger problems – be it on a greater scale?
But The argument is NOT THAT or trying to control women’s sex lives. The argument I am making is that the results of such behaviors lead to consequences like a boatload of out of wedlock kids with no fathers in their lives to help contribute to their mental a emotional well being! A boatload of emotionally damaged women with a shitlaod of baggage. A boatload of women with STD’s. A boat load of women with a whole host of other issues that come with that lifestyle. Do i care on the level that its affecting my LIFE? NO. But why can I not have a discussion pointing out the consequences of this without being trotted as some MATRY trying to control SUsie, Bomquieshe, Ming Lee, maria’s vagina.
I DON NOT CARE. But I do feel women on a greater scale are HYPOCRITES when it comes to this issue and I am freely expressing my personal opinions on why I FEEL the sexual market place is in a disarray. And in MY OPINION its b/c women who have traditionally been he gatekeepers of sex can;t keep their freakin legs closed long enough to make sure that they are making the best choices.
@Neecy @Sunshine789 Here is the thing you can believe more then one thing at the same time. I think casual sex is a personal decision but that does not mean I support STDs or OOW. I can choose not to engage in casual sex and still support another persons right to do so. It isn’t all or nothing. There is no doubt that the sexual marketplace differs significantly then it did 50 years ago but the solution is not saying “women close your legs”. I am going to assume that when you say ” making the best choice” you mean what is deemed best for society, because neither you or I can determine what is best for another individual. The way I see it is the best choice isn’t always the same for all. Therefore, I respect everyone’s right to live their lives as they see fit. Are the outcomes of everyone’s decisions always positive? Nope.
There is no doubt that their are issues amongst black women when it comes to mating and childrearing but by simply saying the reason is the “gatekeepers of sex can’t keep their freakin’ legs closed” is over simplifying a very complex issue that is not just sexual. It also has roots in economics, politics, history, self esteem, spirituality, etc. For that reason, I don’t support the one approach answer of “close your legs” to tackle an issue that has so many factors. One size does not fit all in this case.
@Sunshine789 That is the thing. I too agree that everyone has a RIGHT to live their lives as they choose. But does that mean that I have to agree with it and keep my mouth shut if I FEEL that when too many women partake in these behavors it does have an affect on the entire sexual market place? Does that mean b/c I speak ou against somehting that I am trying to CONTROL people? Can’t it just mean on a simple level that i am simply bringing about a different POV on what I feel are the consequences for WOMEN as a whole when too may women collectivley participate in certain beaviors then scratch thier heads wondering “where ther good men at? Why won’t more men marry and comity? Why are so many men trying to play the field for so long? Why am I not married yet, b/c men do not see the VALUE in me as a woman” blah blah blah. Its like cognitive dissonace with so many women!
Whether I am right or wrong is not hte argument here. I am not trying to control anyone’s sexual choices. Just like women have a right to spread eagle, i have a right to spread my opinions on the results of that behavior when its done on a collective agenda.
ALl we are doing and all i believe Elegance was doing by making this post was to point out from her point of view what it is causing these problems and the effects and results IN HER EYES. She wasn’t writing a scietific publication for a journal on women, feminism, and the sexual marketplace. She was making a post on a blog from her POV.
I do not believe anyone here stated that women do not have a right ot screw whoever they want. i do not spend my days worrying about what every woman is doing with her va jay jay.
But i do take issue with women cmplaining about lack of quality of men these days when they cannot see that quality begets quality. If more women in society are NOT of quality themselves, how can they expect quality men to come into thier lives? How can they expect to live trashy lives and not be called out for it when they fele they are deserving of the most quality mates when thier behaviors woudn’t warrant such or even ATTRACT such?
Sometimes women can be DELUSIONAL and wanna always place the blame on MEN for everything wrong in their lives. Instead of possible self-reflection on the role we as women play to ur own detriment in the dating/mating arena.
That this argument that women have about being free to choose casual sex BUT YET wanting men to respect women for more than thier bodies is HYPOCRITICAL and ass backwards ENTITLED thinking.
The point and proof is in the pudding. WOmen are not really winning in the quest for sexual freedom AND the quest for men to see women beyond sexual beings. Either women accept that certain actions create certain perceptions and stop whining about it and blaming men all the time. or women clean up their acts as to get the respect they CLAIM they deserve and desire that goes beyond our sexuality and SEX in general.
ONE or the OTHER ladies. Pick and choose b/c you can’t and will NEVA have both. That is the point!
@Neecy @Sunshine789
She should’ve of presented it as an opinion peice. Opinions are one thing, but her article was prestented as absolute fact, and then used her own personal expereinces which have since been deleted as ‘proof’.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you can’t put your opinion off as fact and think a bunch of well educated, intellgent, well traveled women are simply just going to roll over because you declared it to be so.
You are entitled to blame other women for everye dating issue you have. It’s your choice, however when you put it out there for us all to see.We will commment on it.
I don’t give a crap how ridiculous your article is stand and defend it, cause it sure as hell needs clarification.
LOl I have to laugh.
HEY CHRISSY. For all your efforts in getting Black women married into loving relationships with WHite men and men in general who can love and appreciate them, it is being railroaded by women on this thread who are NOW SAYING that marriage is simply a financial set up and nothign more?
WOW. Talk about conflciting messages.
I would think that a blog dedicated to pulling BW out of this mindset of just having sex with men they do not even vett or who have not shown any real interest in her as a person would not have so many women arguing against that idea. I mean really.
So Christelyn is your marriage a financial set up and nothign more? is the message of this blog leading to that b/c there seems to be a consensus here that marriage aint nothing but and economic set up. Not really about love.
So should BW not seek marriage and just settle for basic relationships? is marriage pointless for BW? Are all the articles of BW being unmarried GREAt articles b/c we are making out as a whole by not being married?
I’m flabergasted at the mindset being promoted here. WOW. So much for trying to get BW on the right path.
i seroously have to bow out of this discussion now. Its mind boggling to find such a mentality on a Blog like this…
@Neecy Is my marriage a “financial setup?” Uhm…nope. But that’s not to say I didn’t vet my husband for whether or not he would good provider (which he is) but I would NEVER marry someone simply because he had money. My husband is funny, responsible, has the most integrity I’ve ever seen, loves me and cherishes his family, and is really, REALLY attractive to me.
@Christelyn Thought so!! 😉
@Christelyn @Neecy Not mad at you!
@Neecy “WOW. Talk about conflciting messages.”
Well, I guess this conversation is the proof that BW are not a monolith!
@Sunshine789 Its just odd that on a site where the general idea and foundation is to get more and more BW married and into loving relationships by taking the proper steps to find the RIGHT MAN that loves her for her, would have such an amount of conflicting views that go against that.
The fact an article that fals in line with the premise of this blog is receiving so much flack is ODD. Its not about monolith. But at some point, many women come to BW blogs like this bc they typically share the same moral/value ground on a certain mission. And that mission (at least in my eyes in terms of how this blog was created and its premise) is to get BW “living right” so that they can find the right man. A article that suggests what Elegance wrote being picked apart and ripped to shreds is mind boggling on a site like this.
@Sunshine789 I’m sorry not just about finding a man, but just living right in general to increase better opportunities for love, and living.
@Neecy “The fact an article that fals in line with the premise of this blog is receiving so much flack is ODD.”
I would check your premise. I don’t think all the readers of the blog are looking for exactly the same thing coming here. And even if the goals are similar, the way to get there is different to everyone.
“living right” means something different to everyone. What is “right” to one, is “wrong” to another.
@Neecy That I agree with you on. But for me, that also means not throwing other women under the bus when they don’t deserve it. And this particular article did exactly that.
@Sunshine789
“”living right” means something different to everyone. What is “right” to one, is “wrong” to another.”
Well that is clearly obvious.
Not many things boggle this brain. But this discussion and reaction to the article has.
@Neecy “A article that suggests what Elegance wrote being picked apart and ripped to shreds is mind boggling on a site like this.”
Not directing this comment at Elegance – but when you talk about moral/values, many women strongly value the skill of critical thinking, and this article fell WAY short – IMHO.
@Neecy @Sunshine789 I think saying her article is being ripped to shreds is a stretch. It is being debated and I think the fact that is happening on “a site like this” is great. I think the basic premise of this site is for black women to be 100% okay with holding different views and voicing them in a respectful manner. Yes this site advocates finding meaningful relationships over casual ones that probably won’t materialize but that isn’t the argument. The argument and point of the article is whether we need to make the sexual activities of other women our business because they might be changing what men expect. Given the teaching of this site the answer is to “do you” and instead of focusing on what other women are doing or not doing, be okay with not being the norm, the stereotype, or whatever else and find the love you want and deserve.
There’s so many comments here – I’m reposting this to see if anyone else agrees with me.
You can’t control what other people do. You can only control what you do. That’s how life works. If you don’t get that. You will always have a hard life. I don’t know why some people refuse to see this. I feel that some people are coddling Elegance. Begging her not to leave. If she wants to leave let her go. If she chooses to stay. That’s her perogative. If someone is scared to leave anonymous comments on the web. You have bigger problems than relationships. I don’t know why some people cry defense when someone disagrees with their comments. When you leave comments in a public forum. Not everyone is going to agree with you. That’s how a public forum works. That’s life. If you don’t like reading comments that oppose your views. You have the option of not reading them and not responding to them.
No one here has ever attacked Elegance. If you really want to read denigrating comments about black women. Go to bossip.
@kia I ain’t beggin’ but I don’t want Elegance to leave. Different viewpoints are needed.
@heyimPearlilikefries @kia Uh i thought the Elegance issue was done being discussed yesterday after she pretty much said she wasn’t leaving. LOL
@Neecy @kia *didn’t*
@Neecy @heyimPearlilikefries @kia
Yes, she brings an old post back up to keep rehashing it over and over. Nothing personal going on there…
I never mentioned anything personal. If you had read my post correctly. I said I was reposting a previous comment to see if others shared my views.
@kia The problem isn’t with the topic, its with the presentation, the motivation, and the inferences of what is considered ‘proof’ of points one way or the other when a sex discussion is NEVER considered to be an open one. No statistic shown here can represent reality, because ppl don’t report on their sex lives honestly. Anecdotal examples from either side and a limited experience with men made this a sad waste of binary code and a big carbon footprint of wasteful bickering.
@kia You are DERAILING from the topic of the article after Brenda said move on. My quitting has nothing to do with the article so move on instead of bringing it up again.
@tracyreneejones @kia
Okay Tracy, why don’t you show me how it’s done by writing YOUR OWN article with PROOF instead of protesting the existence of my article? If you can do better….please do!
@Elegance @kia Because I don’t want you to feel insulted or upstaged or put on blast or criticized in any way since you have displayed an inability to productively deal with constructive criticism (throwing in the towel and declaring yourself attacked) and a willingness to use manipulation tactics (deleting comments and stating that your writing ‘isn’t that serious to you) to save your damaged credibility. You also stated (in another blog) about how you don’t find aggression and arguments ‘feminine’ but I see you pick and choose when to defend yourself and when to fall back on your gender as an excuse to decline dialogue when you feel incapable or unwilling to delve deeper. That type of psychological manipulation is one reason why certain men have no patience for the behavior that certain women display. Playing the victim, and feigning ignorance was specifically bought up.
Thanks for the invitation to cover this topic but I write articles for people who want to know how to better interact with the opposite sex, without the implied extortion of cash and resources in exchange for sexual favors, which is what your article suggested. Though now that I think of it, I could parallel this ‘social movement’ advice and the sex trade which would adequately show how it benefits a woman to ‘put out less’ (sex) and gain more (money) if her aim is to exploit men. I could also show how that thought process is tied into the sex trade, rape, and the exploitation of women and girls throughout the world. I never criticized the topic, or said if I agree or disagree with it, I left that to the people to decide but whatever…
@tracyreneejones @kia
You know what Tracy you need to stop it because you are being so rude and consecending!. “Because I don’t want you to feel insulted or upstaged or put on blast or criticized in any way since you have displayed an inability to productively deal with constructive criticism”
Stop feigning like you care about my feelings all of a sudden because that is an utter lie. You may love arguing with people and being disrespected by I don’t have any need or masochistic desire to put up with disrespect from strangers who mean absolutely nothing to me.
My quitting blogging here was PRIVATE! I sent Christelyn a PRIVATE email about not feeling that this was the right audience for me. I write posts like this every week so no, it;s not a big deal and posts like this are a dime a dozen for me. I’ve been here less than ONE MONTH and have done THREE posts so no, I was not invested in writing here so it again, was no big deal to just stop. Meanwhile I have MY OWN blog with MY OWN audience that I have been writing for OVER TWO YEARS. I was INVITED to blog here and I said I would give it a try. I do not need to deal with commenters like you being rude because you are a stranger and you do not matter to me. I don’t deal with disrespectful people like you telling me to put up with their garbage because I don’t owe that to you, you are a stranger and I am not your mule. You let people abuse you all you like but that’s for masochists not for me.
I deleted my posts because Jamila said they were not addressing the questions and all over the place so I removed them so there would be no further commenting on them. No need to add to the confusion.
“Thanks for the invitation to cover this topic but I write articles for people who want to know how to better interact with the opposite sex, without the implied extortion of cash and resources in exchange for sexual favors, which is what your article suggested.”
Then by all means go write an article and stop focusing on something you think is garbage anyway.
Yes I am defending myself because YOU WILL NOT STOP! Don’t taunt me over and over about not standing up and fighting and then complaining when I come back and do so, you asked for it! Don’t come to my blog, it’s so not for you.
@Elegance @tracyreneejones @kia
Wait – didn’t you post here (for all to see) that the blogging standards were too high, and that you were quitting?
Okay… Elegance – I support and defend your right to believe as you see fit. I don’t know you personally, and have taken issue with some of your methods, as have a number of other people here – but I really haven’t seen anyone trying to make you take abuse like a mule. You have some people who agree with you wholeheartedly, and they are lauded, while it seems that anyone who disagrees with you is said to be rude and abusive. That’s not right. That’s not dialogue. You can’t throw rocks and run away, and that’s what this has felt like.
It’s clear that you are a very sensitive (young) woman, and I just really, really want you to know that in order to convey the ideas that you are most passionate about, you really HAVE to care about the strangers you just dismissed, and you have to know that they are free to respond as they see fit. Nobody here cussed you out or called you names, but they could have. And you have to know where to “file” that type of behavior so that it doesn’t keep you from sharing what you think/ feel/ believe to be true & beneficial to others.
As an artist, I can tell you – it’s really a fine line, and I think this is a lesson for you right now. Your message, when it comes from the heart, is personal, but you aren’t responsible for other people’s reactions to it. Your responsibility is to tell the truth as you see fit, from your gut (not ego). And the chips will fall where they may.
@NicoleJB @Elegance @tracyreneejones @kia
NicoleJB excellent post. Anyone who supports her is ok, and not bashing, or argumentative. Still missing the point. I’ve read her peices before, and realized that we are coming from two different points of view, which is normally refreshing.
@kia
Some women are just comfortable playing the victim.
@DarlingNikki69 @kia
“Some women are just comfortable playing the victim.”
Yeah, and those who cry “Slut shaming” every other minute are not “playing the victim”
“I can sleep around with whomever but you are victimizing me by noticing and saying you don’t like it. You have to support my sleeping around or else you are a terrible person. Only opinions in support of ALL sexual choices are welcome here and all negative opinions MUST BE CENSORED!”
LMAO
@Elegance @DarlingNikki69 @kia Not censored. Countered. Say what you like. Judge all you like. When you’re judged in return, try not to be surprised.
@Elegance @kia
I’m not a slut, never have been. never will be. Like I said, had you offered it as an opinion peice I’m sure it would’ve been recieved much differntly.
@kia I hate anything remotely resembling confrontation and causing a scene, but I need to get something off my chest.
There are different degrees of rudeness. Just because people aren’t saying over-the-top stuff like they do on bossip doesn’t mean that some people’s comments here weren’t out of line. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the original post, but I don’t think it’s okay to make passive-aggressive references to “playing the victim,” “it’s your own fault you can’t get a man,” “why run away instead of taking the comments?” etc.
By the way, in the past few months, I have noticed multiple complaints from original posters and authors about rudeness in the comments section. (Didn’t Chris make a post about this some time ago?) Some commenters would accuse the posters of being unable to “take it,” but I’m starting to think that if multiple people are making the same complaint, then there is a problem.
Honestly, I think many people here were graceful about their dissent. But there were some comments here that I was really disappointed to read. I read some comments that implied that Elegance should have just taken some of what was said because people say ruder ish elsewhere on the internet. I think that’s pretty sad. It sounds to me like people are using the Internet as an excuse to be mean. The Internet, however, doesn’t make the people behind it any less real. Just a thought.
@onmywayup @kia
Hi Onmywayup,
You know the funny thing is that those references to what people do on the internet and Bossip pretty much proves that norms exist! Sites like Bossip are seen as “role models” for this individual site BB&W. It’s just unfathomable that BB&W can be “abnormally” cordial in the comments section even though other sites are not.
Because other large sites allow for rudeness, people on this site expect to have their rudeness tolerated because rudeness has become “the norm”.
Anyone who doesn’t take that rudeness is deemed “abnormal” and faces negative consequences and is told “you should be able to take this because everyone else does. You must be really weak. You should have known the norm and you have to fall in line and accept whatever the norm is!”
What a great real life demonstration of the way what the majority does my have a negative impact on what individual people do. I guess my problem is that I didn’t vet the commenters here properly. I thought they were of better quality…
… I think we just had a comment frenzy in like.. 30 minutes?
@heyimPearlilikefries Girl, my laptop battery is almost dead. I need to get my behind off of this blog – lol!
@Sunshine789 OMG yours too!?
@heyimPearlilikefries 19% left. I am so done for the night!
@Sunshine789 Ooooh you gots tah go! lol
Hot. Mess……
@tracyreneejones TOTALE.
@ieishah @tracyreneejones
But girls, the melodramatic, Scarlotte O’hara Gone with the Windness of it all is quite classic…..tragic, yet classic.
This post is not about marriage. It’s about casual sex. More often then not people don’t enter into these relationships looking for marriage. They are looking for sex, companionship, etc. If you are a women looking for a loving committed relationship DON’T have casual sex. If I am looking for a man to marry I am going to very quickly dismiss men who are looking for casual sex and go about my business looking for men of substance. I’m not going to make what other women looking for casual relationships my business and have a pity party worrying about how they are changing sexual norms.
The article states that what other women are doing is the business of the author and other women because they are ruining the expectations of men. My point is who cares. Sure they might be going along with what has become normalized behavior but how is whining about it going to help me find the loving partner I want? It isn’t. Therefore, what other women are doing isn’t my concern. This blog post is focused on a problem with no ideas for how to navigate this changing sexual landscape, or how to overcome these perceived issues. It’s about placing blame on others for ones perceived inability to find a committed relationship.
The basic goal of this blog is to try and transcend the stereotypes associated with being a black woman to find the love we all deserve where it is. That same goes for sexual norms. Focus on your goal and find love where you can. Blaming feminist, promiscuous women, or stereotypes is not goin to help you meet that goal. It just keeps you focused on the problem.
Does Elegance have a blog? I notice when I click her link name it takes me to this post. Elegance is you are reading, if you don’t mind I would like to visit your blog.
If you don’t wanna post it here I understand LOL. But please email me at neecy101@gmail.com if you don’t want to publicly post it.
Thanks!
@Neecy
http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com/
@Jamila THX!!!
@Neecy Come for a visit 🙂 I think you really understood what I wrote and the points I was trying to make. Thank you 🙂
@Elegance I made my first post . HEHE!!
And. Where the heck is TONI? I haven’t seen her or any posts made by her lately. Does she still come here?
@Neecy Yeah, she’s still here. People just get busy with life off the board.
@Jamila Oh. I miss her. LOL She needs to get un busy!
334 comments…really?
I get what @Elegance is saying and it is right on. There is a saying, “Not all can receive this saying but to whom it has been given.” Those who get it, get it in the heart and context in which it was written if the agree or not.
I get what Elegance is saying and it is right on. There is a saying, “Not all can receive this saying but to whom it has been given.” Those who get it, get it in the heart and context in which it was written if they agree or not. Sadly the social norms are pushing us further away from good moral choices (and that does not mean being a NUN). I remember when I was in HS I and several other girls were teased for being “virgins” by the more “popular” girls (and I don’t mean Class president, High School Cheerleader popular) but you know what? I love the fact today I do not have that history of guys feeling me up, going to “first base”, “second base”, etc. because when they were done with those girls, they DUMPED them. I was able to tell my God-daughter (a late bloomer) she was not missing out on being “popular” and that when the guy she really wants to be with and he with her, she will not have that history either. I know this is not everybody’s story but promiscuity is not freedom, no matter how much it is justifed and defended.
What she said here “In the past, men would have to commit to women in order to get sex. Now they don’t have to go on a date or even buy a lady a drink. This lowers men’s motivation to have monogamous relationships or marriage because they don’t need to do those things to get sex anymore. This is fine for women who want to be single but lousy for those who want relationships and marriage.”: This is so true ! The men who approach me (especially online) don’t bother to court and the ones on line just ask me to send them photos of my body parts. One guy kept offering to send me photos of his you know what (NO THANK YOU!). This is what happens when sexual freedom goes amuck. And it continues because alot of women out there accommodate these low lifes and they expect every woman they meet to do it.
@DU2 They ask you to send photos of your body parts? Not even of your whole self? SMH
Mercy!
This is like a Kola Boof post.
@ Elegance – I enjoy your posts and I’m looking forward to reading future posts.
@ Neecy – I really really like you and I’m glad you have your own blog too!
What if a woman and man don’t have time for relationships but still crave sexual intimacy? Is that such a bad thing? What if they made an agreement with another person to fulfill those needs with one person? Is that a horrible thing? Would that make them whores?
And it’s not a ‘friends with benefits’ set up, it’s about… sex. These things happen and these women and men are not sluts.
A woman who has casual sex or has a sex arrangement does not make her loose. A particular woman or man may want that.
I get the feeling that some women think that if you have had ____ amount of sexual partners no man will ever love you.
Sometimes sex in the beginning of meeting each other happens. It doesn’t make the woman irresponsible. Some of these relationships do very well. Some just got caught up in the passion and these women weren’t being used it was mutual.
I think a lot of it has to do with how you feel about yourself. Not about how ‘easy’ you gave it up. It’s about confidence. if you feel that you are a whore because you slept with a man on the fifth date then you probably are. if you don’t then you are an awesome woman.
It’s about how you feel about you. Not what some other chick has to say about YOUR lifestyle.
I am really saddened and disgusted by some (I said some not all) of the responses to @Elegance post. I understand we all have different viewpoints on these subjects, no one is saying anyone has to agree or fully endorse what she is saying but what I cannot stand is the catty, snarky ripping what she says to to shreds then stepping back , hands in the air, batting the eyelashes and “innocently” saying , “hey nobody is attacking her, we are just keeping it real, if she can’t take the heat she can get out the kitchen, don’t beg her to stay she can just LEAVE” I do not know Elegance personally, but from what I have observed to not just the responses to her post but to others I have read over the last couple of years is that some of the commenters seem to feel entitled to rip apart peoples contributions in the name of keeping it real and defending their own view on the matter. The “attitude” comes across the page loud and clear The do not approach the table diplomatically and asking for more clarification, they go right into attack mode (though they swear up and down they are not attacking) and expect the other person to just “take it” because after all it is a public forum right? Public forums are not supposed to be carte blanche to attack and destroy people with our words, it is supposed to be a place to freely express our thoughts and opinions and give others the place to do the same without being snarky and catty all the time. @Christelyn has mentioned this behavior in times past and mentioned some people had stopped contributing and left the blog because they got tired of being verbally gunned down by some of the people on this blog, but what she has said has fallen on deaf ears and instead of toning it down and stopping to really listen, some are all to happy to help them pack since they fell these people can’t take people “keeping it real”. No the reality is people get tired of being spit on and choose to walk away. I cannot speak for anyone but me, but in reading the article it seems (I said seems, I stand corrected if it is not the case) to me her goal was to encourage women to want BETTER even if that means going against the current “Social Norm” and addressing that certain behaviors are doing us more harm than good and robbing us of the beauty of quality and that the accepted social norms are not always the best for us if we want a quality relationship that leads to marriage. What she was addressing was deeper than “slut shaming” or criticizing someones sex life. We have one body, do we want it used for a “semen dump” (As Evia Moore puts it) with random guys who care nothing about us in the name of freedom? This hook-up/friends with benefits culture is making it more and more difficult for those of us who want quality relationships and that has to change. If there are those who don’t want that, that is fine for them, but many of us want more and we want BETTERSpeaking of social norms, I remember an incident in High School where I was mad about something and I cussed up a storm (I normally did not swear) one of my male classmates who overheard me said to me “I don’t want to hear you speaking like that ever again.” I of course got an attitude and told him he had no right to tell me what to say, yadda yadda yadda. He responded to me with “Calm down, look we expect that from the other girls but we don’t expect that from you.” One, He said we, meaning him and several other boys, second his response told me that they respected me though the other girls were using coarse language. In their minds I was different from the rest (in a good way). Before someone goes on a rant about what I said, I am just pointing out how carrying yourself a certain way speaks volumes to those around us. I had no idea those guys had been watching me but they had and noted my conduct. That happened many years ago and I never forgot the lesson. If what Elegance has said rubs you the wrong way read something else, but verbally ripping people to shreds in the name of “keeping it real” or “just saying” is not respectful and it is not cool.
@Elegance @Christelyn ***feel not fell sorry for the type-os
@DU2 @Christelyn
Thank you so much for your kind words 🙂 I think that things here did become personal. In the beginning I contributed to that by answering personal questions (I will never make that mistake again), but I have no experience writing for large audiences. I skip comment sections on large blogs too. I think that just because other sites like Bossip tolerate disrespect on their sites does not mean BB&W needs to sink down to that level. It can be better, classier, and more welcoming than any other blog. It can set the example that other blogs strive to achieve. I write posts like this all the time on my blog and get barely any comments.
” I cannot speak for anyone but me, but in reading the article it seems (I said seems, I stand corrected if it is not the case) to me her goal was to encourage women to want BETTER even if that means going against the current “Social Norm” and addressing that certain behaviors are doing us more harm than good and robbing us of the beauty of quality and that the accepted social norms are not always the best for us if we want a quality relationship that leads to marriage.”
Thank you for this. This post was meant to HELP not to hurt. It was meant to help those who don’t follow the norm to feel confident in saying NO to the social and ideological pressures to sleep around. You can say no to being raunchy. I’m not anti-sex at all, but random sex with strangers who don’t care about you just has absolutely no appeal for me. If you like it fine, but for those who are unsure feel free to not do that and don’t go along because others are doing it. don’t follow the crowd or media messages, fight the peer pressure. You don’t have to give your body to anyone you don’t want to. Don’t let anyone pressure you to have sex when you don’t want to. Keep yourself safe you are so precious and no one has the right to use or abuse you, you don’t have to let them because they or someone else says “it’s normal”.
@Elegance @DU2 @Christelyn
“Thank you for this. This post was meant to HELP not to hurt. It was meant to help those who don’t follow the norm to feel confident in saying NO to the social and ideological pressures to sleep around. You can say no to being raunchy. I’m not anti-sex at all, but random sex with strangers who don’t care about you just has absolutely no appeal for me. If you like it fine, but for those who are unsure feel free to not do that and don’t go along because others are doing it. don’t follow the crowd or media messages, fight the peer pressure. You don’t have to give your body to anyone you don’t want to. Don’t let anyone pressure you to have sex when you don’t want to. Keep yourself safe you are so precious and no one has the right to use or abuse you, you don’t have to let them because they or someone else says “it’s normal”.
THIS I can agree with. Following your OWN moral code gets a thumbs-up from me.
@DU2 @Christelyn
I guess the disclaimer for the post is:
“If you like having multiple casual sex partners, are happy with that, and like that society accepts that then this post is NOT for you.
If you don’t want to have causal sex with multiple partners, feel pressure to do so, and may have even done so and regretted it later, and you think it’s harder now to get into monogamous relationships, then this post may help you feel more confident in saying NO”. It’s for the abstainers who seem to be ignored nowadays.
I think every post I do will have a disclaimer from now on and I really advise people to use them. I can’t speak for everyone’s point of view.
@Elegance @Christelyn Elegance just speak my sister. I think what you have to say is of great value and no matter how sincere you lay it out there are going to be catty snarky commenters who will just have to criticize no matter what is being said. You could say “wearing cute feminine dresses cause guys heads to turn” and here comes “oh why does it have to be a dress? I can look cute in pants, a dress does not define my femininity, you need to explain yourself and stop “Pants shaming” women who prefer not to wear dresses, I met my husband and in pair of pants and he likes me in pants” and on it goes and all what was said was men notice women in feminine dresses. I enjoy your posts her and your blog. Keep writing and it if gets to be a bit much here, I will continue to read your blog (hugs)
TO ALL THE LATECOMERS:
I see that now some people are starting to show up who have not been on this thread since the very beginning and are now adding their 2 cents about who did what to whom when. And, you are definitely welcome to do this. We welcome all input that does not violate the rules and terms of the board.
However, you need to know that multiple comments which are germane to your understanding of the evolution of this thread have been erased. Therefore if you are a late comer it is possible that you will come to a warped understanding of how this thread progressed and, in particular, you will probably fail to understand why a particular response was aroused, since you can’t see the original statements.
Just keep this in mind while you are adding those cents of yours.
Well you step away to handle personal business and the crew starts cutting up.
The next person who complaines about heavy handed moderation please miss me with that. Understand.
As of now this thread is closed for comments.
Moderators’ note. 1/30/2013 7:46 AM EST
For those wanting to continue this discussion you can do so at Elegance’s site found here.
http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com/2013/01/my-sex-life-is-none-of-your-business-or_27.html
You may also want to stop by here and read this post by the emeritus BWE blogger Khadija Nassif :
http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2013/01/and-band-played-on-21st-century_29.html
This blog will not be revisiting this particular article however.