You Just Can’t Ignore It: Cultural Outlooks About Out-of-Wedlock Babies

You Just Can’t Ignore It: Cultural Outlooks About Out-of-Wedlock Babies

Oh. My. Gosh. Take a look at the percentage of black out-of-wedlock births. Your mind will explode.

Author : Christelyn Karazin

Author's Website | Articles from

Take a good look at this newly happily married couple. Notice something?

See the baby bump?  Full disclosure: I know the parents of the groom. No way they were co-signing their grandchild being brought into the world illegitimately, but the truth is, that young guy is deeply in love with his bride. They were engaged BEFORE they conceived, and Ryan Johnson, the groom, says that news of the impending arrival of Baby Johnson was just icing on the cake. Here is another cultural difference that we just can’t ignore: while the out-of-wedlock rate is rising across the races, every other race EXCEPT for the black race values making babies within wedlock.

I’m not just making this up. Seventy-three percent of black children are born out of wedlock. WAIT.

OH MY GEEZUS AND WHAT THE CUSS!! EIGHTY PERCENT OF BLACK CHILDREN ARE BORN OUT-OF-WEDLOCK!! According to a story in USA Today, dated April 11, 2012. Take a gander at the stark differences, and YOU tell ME which group is faring better educationally and economically:

About 80% of first children born to black women were outside of marriage; 18% of these women were cohabiting. Among Hispanics, 53% of first children were born outside of marriage, and 30% of the women were cohabiting. Among white women, 34% of first children were born outside of marriage, 20% to cohabiters. Among Asians, 13% of first children were born outside of marriage; 7% of women were cohabiting.

 

Compare that with, oh…ANYONE else, and you see we lead the pack. (After No Wedding No Womb, you’d have to be living inside a crevice and a stone not to know my take on this. Getting pregnant doesn’t “just happen” and no man’s penis trips and falls into a woman’s vagina.)

Where’s the black church on this issue? No outrage? Oh. They’re too busy co-signing the beating and choking of 15 year-old girls.

I’m going to get a little personal here. A month before my wedding, The Hubster and I were…uh…”coloring,” and I said “Hey, why not let it slide with the condoms? We’re getting married in 27 days.” He flat out told me “No. I won’t risk it. You’ve already proven your fertility with Maxi Me, and I want to be sure that ALL my kids are born after your ring is on.” Welp; guess he told me. It was a good thing, too, because my husband can just blow in my ear and I get knocked up.

Because I know the parents of the groom, I know that Dave, Ryan’s dad, was just a teenie, tiny, eensie, weensie bit nervous about having a black daughter-in-law, but you know what helped a lot? Them knowing our family, and seeing that we were just like everyone else, except I’m chocolate and my husband is vanilla. Dave was also willing to grow and learn, and even bought a copy of  SWIRLING so he could better understand the bride’s cultural experiences. Bottom line though, she was pregnant, and they were going to support their son legitimizing his child. The groom told his mother, “We want our baby to be brought into the world having the same last name.” Kudos to both of them for doing it the right way.

The happy newly-weds, Ryan and Raven

Unfortunately, I’ve seen a lot of the opposite going on in the black community, with black mothers front and center petting and protecting their sons, telling them they better not marry that tramp, because the baby might not even be theirs, blah blah blah. But in their defense, most of those mothers got pregnant without being married, so telling their sons not to marry women with whom they have impregnated is as natural as a puppy piddling on your Persian rug. I wonder though…might this resistance be only because marriage then children is so foreign, or something else, like jealously toward the girl, because the son deems her worthy of marriage while the mother didn’t have such an experience?

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Brenda55 20977 pts moderator

Well it would seem that this thread has veered off the rails a bit with a discussion of the merits of feminism and desperate male identified black women.  That is really a long way from the original subject of cultural differences when it comes to tolerance of  out of wedlock births.  

 

I don't know maybe we have exhausted the subject at hand and we should shut this party down? No doubt about it lets put this one to bed and move on to something else. 

 

R. Kamaria 854 pts

Here's another story on the topic I read today. It depicts more middle class white women CHOOSING not to marry before having children. Well they can have at it. I'm still in the middle ages - Marriage then kids. http://www.freep.com/article/20120620/FEATURES14/206200307/More-middle-class-women-choose-babies-first-husbands-second

 

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 R. Kamaria "This guy isn't marriage material, but he's good enough to have a child with, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if I got pregnant.' "

 

http://i43.tinypic.com/15qvjwi.jpg

 

If a man isn't good enough for you to marry, how on Earth can you be certain he'd be good enough to father your children? Are you THINKING about your children at that point? Is it fair to bring a child into the world with a man that may end up having nothing to do with them, wanting nothing to do with them, potentially having moved on with and married someone else?

 

This past Father's day, I got wind of a lot of girls with some serious father issues. 

 

You can pretend that you're being progressive, but in the end, you're being naive. At least I hope these women are being honest with the guy in question before deciding to procreate. Once you have that kid, it's really not about you anymore.

AnInterestedObserver 1029 pts

 Toni_M  R. Kamaria 

 

I would say the biggest issue these girls have with Father's day is not having had one in their lives. How can you call yourself a man abandoning your little girl in such a hostile world? I do not get it, but everyone who thinks the certain group infamous for this behavior is so great. SMH.

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 AnInterestedObserver  R. Kamaria  "I would say the biggest issue these girls have with Father's day is not having had one in their lives."

 

And you'd be wrong actually. Some of these girls DID have fathers...just bad ones. A body =/= a decent father figure. Some people are given too much credit for being present physically, but otherwise useless. You'd be surprised by how many girls wished they'd HAD no fathers rather than suffer the emotional, mental, and physical abuse they had to put up with at the hands of "daddy dearest".

 

Part of choosing to procreate means being aware of who you are getting 50% of the DNA from. Many a woman has married or simply had children a man that was charming and loving, but turned out to be a pedophile or some other variation of glorified scumbag. 

AnInterestedObserver 1029 pts

 Toni_M  R. Kamaria 

 

Toni, if you think I include as a "good Father" some man who is just PRESENT then you are wrong. I include in my definition of girls who have no Fathers as the ones who also have some useless waste of human tissue in the home sucking oxygen from her & her mother just as much as I do the ones whose useless Father never was physically there in the home either. I KNOW what it means to be a father, and those losers who we have in some of the Black homes ain't it, no matter how much they may be there PHYSICALLY. As far as the charming & loving part goes, well I have said it once and I will say it again: When Black women have standards for Black male behavior for potential mates, they are told they are "too picky", that their standards are "too high", that they are "acting White", etc. When Black women consider non-Black boyfriends/husbands, then they are told that they "hate Black men" and are "bashing" them. Damned if they do, damned if they don't!  They are also told that they are "bashing" them if they talk about the behavior you describe that is epidemic in so many of these males.

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 AnInterestedObserver 

 

You said:

 

"I would say the biggest issue these girls have with Father's day is not having had one in their lives. How can you call yourself a man abandoning your little girl in such a hostile world?"

 

That is what you said, and that is what I replied to. It was an assumption based on a comment I didn't elaborate on, and that is why I corrected you.

 

 

I'm entitled to agree with the rest of your comment, but you should know in this case, I was not referring to black girls or women specifically: I was referring to girls in general. The reason being this particular thread is looking at a phenomenon rising among middle class white women.

 

I just find it funny (in a sad way) these women are participating in behaviors that may very likely lead to the same disappointment and anguish already familiar to black women. As these numbers rise though, I suspect it will be corrected via social cues and introspection rarely afforded to black people these days, often by their own willful behavior to ignore this as a problem.

AnInterestedObserver 1029 pts

 Toni_M Oh, I did not know you were not specifically talking about Black girls & women, because I most certainly was. I agree with you 100% that the White community will not allow this disfunction to take over the way it has in the Black community, SMH.

Bunny77 2125 pts

 R. Kamaria I saw that one this morning (still read my Freep daily). I was like, okay... good for you... as for me... nah son.

 

(I will say that I give a bit of a pass to the late 30-somethings who make this decision, but the ones in their 20s? Please.)

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 Bunny77  R. Kamaria You may disbelieve it, but speaking as someone in her late twenties, I can vouch for the early onset "mid-life crisis". It's very real.

 

Blame the "Twitter Generation"/"Generation Z": Preteens who are everywhere thanks to having awareness of and access to the internet since birth (with a questionable lack of parental guidance), who advertisers have trampled over twenty-somethings and even teens in their late years, in order to influence for the sake of money.

 

The increasing lack of relevancy for twenty-somethings have made certain persons feel "old". I even hear people in their early twenties talking about feeling old. I understand where it comes from and why....but it's still making me roll my eyes.

 

 

People need to get a grip and not let pop culture dictate their lives and relevancy.

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 Bunny77  R. Kamaria *persons in their late teens I should say

Bunny77 2125 pts

Interesting. I have noticed more women talking about being petrified to turn 30, for example. I never understood this -- this was something I never feared. Plus, wasn't the general mid-life crisis age 40 (for men and women)? I guess I get that, to a degree, but having an age-related crisis at 25-30? You do bring up a good point though about the way so many outside influences can affect one's thinking about age. Toni_M  R. Kamaria 

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 Bunny77  R. Kamaria Again, blame the internet. Before then, much of the focus was on "youth", where that meant age 18-25. In those days, these people didn't have to expect to interact with persons age 10-14. Also, this group was more likely to be employed and spending money on the "in things" of the day.

 

Today's recession means that this same group is more likely to be out of a job. The pre-teens are more likely to have parents willing to spend money on the whims of these kids, so they market to the pre-teens who worry the crap out of their parents until they buy them whatever it is they want. Pre-teens have become the hybrid marketing group of choice, partially treated as children and partially having "mature" things dangled over their heads.

 

I'm probably going to write my master's thesis on this (going for my MBA!) as it's a very interesting phenomenon.

 

I wonder how long it will be before TEENAGERS are having crisises, and parents actually get around to putting their foot down over this mental and emotional manipulation. Whereas it's annoying when you hear it from from adults, having this expressed by children still developing mentally and emotionally might cause persons to actively reign in harmful advertising.

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 Bunny77  R. Kamaria *crises

 

I can't spell today. XD

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Bunny77  Toni_M  R. Kamaria I swear I am not having a mid-life crisis, more like a mid-life re-birth. I find that young ppl have always been angsty, by the time 40 rolls around you're actually less angsty it seems to me and more sure of yourself. Well, at least, for the women I know. 

Bunny77 2125 pts

 Toni_M  R. Kamaria Congrats on your future MBA! I'd love to read your thesis!

Bunny77 2125 pts

 eugeniaberg   Toni_M  R. Kamaria I've still got a while before 40, but I don't see myself having a mid-life crisis then either!  :D

 

I think if you're happy with your life, you embrace the new experiences and perspectives that come with each "milestone" age.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Bunny77  Toni_M  R. Kamaria All I knew that when I was 30, I wanted to different by the time I reached 40, I am and by the time I reach I want to have changed, grown in a positive way. All the angst I felt in my 20s is gone, this literally is the best time of my life. By the time I turn 50 I'll hopefully be saying that again. 

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 R. Kamaria To be honest, I'm sincerely boggled by that logic. Child-rearing and financially, mentally, and emotionally supporting that child is an even greater responsibility than marriage. Marriages dissolve all the time. You can't "return" a child if things get complicated and don't work out.

 

I was just thinking about the increase in WW just dropping off children that they no longer want/can support. I wonder how much of that was the result of an assumption of how single-motherhood could/would be?

 

 

Marriage isn't for everyone. Neither, is parenthood. The latter CERTAINLY requires more thought than the former.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Toni_M pls check ur Twitter

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 eugeniaberg   Checked. Sorry I have a bazillion twitters for different interests, so I sometimes miss stuff. Also, for whatever reason Twitter didn't send me any notifications. O_o

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Toni_M that's okay, we're on the same wavelength now. Good luck. 

AnInterestedObserver 1029 pts

 Toni_M  R. Kamaria 

 

And let me guess what will happen to White women's image now that more of them are dropping off children they no longer want/can support:

 

Nothing.

aceontopofkings 417 pts

I'm so proud of this happy couple, you can see that they CLEARLY and DEEPLY love each other, so why not do a shotgun wedding? I see no problem with it, if the two ppl involved are already living together and playing husband and wife (sharing household responsibility and soon to be child)  why not take it to the next level and make it official. Kudos to this couple and I really enjoy reading these happily ever after stories on this site. :)

KTW1 177 pts

I've been lurking/occasionally commenting on this blog for a while. Many of the women on this blog have shared wonderful, life-affirming stories of marriage (which I think is a beautiful institution) and companionship (those are my favorite to read). But I believe that this issue is so close to many of your hearts because of the benefits that come to children reared in two-parent homes, and the opportunities for socioeconomic advancement that marriage provides to women (regardless of your partner's color).

 

If I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I don't think that Dr. Goddess/Ta-Nehisi/assorted white feminists are necessarily against the idea of marriage. They just see it as one option among many (TNC was raised in an unconventional home, but was provided with plenty of resources). 

Avoc42883 1269 pts

For all this talk about finances, I was lucky in that I was raised by a single mother who had an education and a high income, she actually out-earned most of my white friends parents combined.  So while my brother and I enjoyed quite a few luxuries, we still had to endure certain hardships attributed to being in a single parent home.   What happens if the single parent gets sick and can't work?  Or heaven forbid, passes away?  Or what if the single mother is just plain tired?  Feminism is about empowering women, but part of being empowered is admitting you are not superwoman. 

SwirlQueen 1067 pts

I posted a note back in March about a lady at the Chronicle of Higher Education who was obviously acting on behalf of the Dr. Godess types when she posted a diatribe of the song and gave Christelyn a super nasty critique and dismissed NWNW as a joke.  But she did it in a scholarly way.  She got spanked by the 6 of the 7 commenters in a scholarly way that I hope shut her up and made her think long and hard about her foolishness.  Comments are closed, but this is the mindset behind the vitriol.  I am sure this white feminist is married with children, yet black women don't have to demand the same if they don't want to, proverty has made bw who they are and there is NO way they can take responsibility for oow births, marriage be dammed..  SMH.  http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/no-wedding-no-womb-no-joke/27320

 

My facebook note:  http://www.facebook.com/stirbagorgeousdiva?ref=ts#!/notes/lorraine-spencer/another-look-at-no-wedding-no-womb/10150626066085458

 

Brenda55 20977 pts moderator

 SwirlQueen 

 

Another article from the author of the article you posted. 

 

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/September-October-2003/feature_essig_sepoct03.msp

 

Here I'll hepl you out and post the first paragraph.

 

"My Gay Divorce By Laurie Essig

 

THIRTEEN YEARS AGO I MET LIZA COWAN, THE WOMAN OF MY DREAMS. We dated, moved in together, got a couple of dogs, and eventually had children. In other words, we became a family. We didn't get married, however, because we were two women. But in June 2001, we moved to Vermont and took advantage of the state's unique provision for civil unions, which come with all of the privileges of marriage except for the name. We were one of 5,671 same-sex couples to be "civil-unioned." Now we're one of 16 to divorce and, as far as we know, the only ones in that group with kids. 

 

 

Sooooooooo this woman is going to tell black women what exactly?

 

 All from her safe perch in her Ivory tower.

 

 http://www.middlebury.edu/newsroom/experts/essig

Brenda55 20977 pts moderator

 SwirlQueen I get so sick and tierd of people like this pulling apart black women and attempting to tell us how to live our lives.  I really do.

 

This woman,this  gay woman, this educated, upper middle class gay women married legally at the first chance she got. Had her own kids in a committed relationship and is downing NWNW?

 

She valued marriage enough and the security it provided for her own kids that  she traveled to Vermont to legally marry her partner. But the same is nonsense for black women.

 

Ladies, take a hard look at the people feeding you poison. 

The Working Home Keeper 6990 pts

 Brenda55  SwirlQueen Absolutely Brenda!  That's why I have will have nothing to do with feminism.  It certainly doesn't benefit black women. 

Bunny77 2125 pts

 Brenda55  SwirlQueen Okay, I missed that "article" when it was in the Chronicle back then. Glad I did.

 

I'd heard of that Essig woman before... actually, it was because she wrote some article about marriage being obsolete and a black woman happily posted it to a message board (long before NWNW existed). The BW was saying it was such a great article and maybe it should cause us to rethink our ideas about marriage.

 

Thankfully, others chimed in and said the article was garbage and yet another example of ivory tower professors who simply enjoyed hearing themselves talk. I looked up Essig, found out she was a lesbian woman who specialized in queer topics (which is fine, btw) and pointed out the folly of using this woman's criticism of heterosexual marriage to justify one's own choice (or lack of choice in the black community).

 

The conversation shut down after that.  :)

 

But yes, I find it very "interesting" that Essig -- who pursued a same-sex marriage herself and raised a child with her partner -- wants to be taken seriously when she disparages heterosexual marriage and even worse, people actually listen to her and take her seriously enough to give her a voice on issues facing heterosexual women of color in legitimate academic publications.

 

Like Brenda said, pay attention to these "messengers." Folks want to get so excited about anyone presenting an "alternative" viewpoint that they fail to see how hypocritical these messengers are!

Kels 1345 pts

I just have to laugh when these anti-NWNW bloggers go on and on about the movement being anti-feminist. What FOOLS! Do they not realize all their white feminist heroines online get married before they have babies? Several Jezebel bloggers have had babies in recent years and they're ALL MARRIED! These fools don't even realize that their white feminist heroines don't even buy into their own bullshit! White feminists will preach all day long about not needing a man and how single motherhood is beautiful, and yet, none of them chose to be single mothers. But they'll cheer black women on while we ruin our lives to keep it real for feminism.

 

Christelyn 9253 pts moderator

 Kels Exactly. I had to go on a put one WW in check. I told her to sit down, because she knows she was raised by two parents and is married. That shut her the eff up! hahhahaha

Avoc42883 1269 pts

 Kels  These are the same women that celebrate obese black like Gabourey Sidibe while ignoring the effects that unhealthy diet has had on black people all the while complaining about their own bodies.

 

whatever there's a saying that applies here.... "so open-minded your brains leak out"

Zindzi_Zenani 1399 pts

 Kels I don't know what blogs you speak of cause this is pretty much the only blog I read on relationships, and the BW feminists blogs I read don't really discuss romantic relationships all that much.

 

But, I think that when Black wombanists/feminists do say that this "movement" is anti-feminist, its because they're just fed-up with what they see as Black womben being "male-centered."  Whether its centered on Black men or white men or any other men.  They'd like Black womben to focus less on relationships and partnering with men and more on themselves and their potential.

 

And I don't know all white feminists, but I just don't think they're sitting there cheering along Black womben ruining their lives (because not having a man is hardly ruining your life).  Whether they're feminists or not, they often deal with different types of men than we do and that's what affects their lives.  Not some plot to be happy with their husbands while we rail against marriage.  Also, to say no white feminists choose to be single mothers is just...a bit uninformed.  I know FIVE myself.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

@Zindzi_Zenani @Kels I'm sorry you may not know this movement, I've been following NWNW & BB&W for almost 3 years. I was there the 1st NWNW campaign & the stuff that @kels & @christelyn is more than true for this set of ppl. Saw it with my own eyes. There were a large segment of white feminist banishing bw to lives they wouldn't live themselves in the name of feminism. Yea it happened, this not about telling ppl to get married, if you don't want to get married, don't get married. But bw should not decide to bring children into this world haphazardly with participation from the father whatsoever. If you really knew anything about NWNW you'd realize how off your comment is.

oekmama 1047 pts

  christelyn  Maybe THIS could be the topic for the next book - about NWNW and its development - coz young bw should know who actually ISN'T in their corner.

I still cannot fathom that anyone could be against NWNW. It's just so logical.

Zindzi_Zenani 1399 pts

 eugeniaberg   Zindzi_Zenani  Kels  kels  christelyn So, a bunch of white feminists were saying things on BLOGS about a pseudo-"movement" and you feel comfortable making such blanket statements about white feminists in general?

 

I'm sorry, to say that, "White feminists will preach all day long about not needing a man and how single motherhood is beautiful, and yet, none of them chose to be single mothers," based on a few of their responses on some blogs is just uninformed.  Far too small of a sample size to make that a true notion.

 

And for the record, folks have been telling Black womben to stop having OOW children much longer than the NWNW "movement' has been in existence.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Zindzi_Zenani  Kels  christelyn No I didn't make no blanket statement, you never heard me make a blanket statement. And it wasn't on this blog, it was a Twitter campaign. Yes some white feminists were on there, if you'd take the time to read and see the nuance, no one said all, you said all. Kels said several, you're the one that got your panties in a bunch when we didn't bow down to the alter of white feminism. I know other movements have been in place before NWNW, but I'm talking about the NWNW that's it and that's all. You don't know what you're talking about, you have no idea so stop making yourself look unwise by speaking on matters like the NWNW campaign and it's launch and what happened at the launch when you have no knowledge of it. That's what I'm saying. But I did just see you say something that is very telling you called NWNW a psuedo-movement, what do you mean by that? Do you have some issue with NWNW because if so, we can solve it right now. 

Zindzi_Zenani 1399 pts

 eugeniaberg   Kels  christelyn I think you're being a bit dramatic.  Nobody is asking y'all to bow down to white feminism.  You said that white feminists (yes, you were talking about a blog, but the statement you made didn't say, "the white feminists on the twitter campaign") told Black womben to live lives they'd never be willing to live themselves.  I PERSONALLY KNOW white feminists who made the choice to be single mothers so I know that isn't true.

 

Sorry if the fact that I don't hate white feminists bother you but I've often found them to be far better allies than a lot of Black womben (mainly because they're so busy trying to please Black men) when fighting injustices (even in Black communities).  I have a different view of them.  I know many of them can be racist as hell (just like a lot of white gay folks), but, needless to say, I don't roll with them.

 

The discussions I've seen involving the NWNW "movement" are not new.  Therefore, I didn't need to be following them on Twitter to speak on it.  That's why I called it a pseudo-movement...ITS NOT NEW.  Folks have been telling Black womben to stop having OOW forever.  It didn't start a few years ago.  These discussions and debates are OLD.

 

But, it is what it is.  I know black and white feminists OUTSIDE of the internet.  I interact with them on a daily basis (just had a white and a black womban interview me yesterday for a position at a feminist/wombanist organization).  So, if I see a lil arguing on Twitter, that's not necessarily an accurate or all-encompassing look at these groups of people to me.

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Zindzi_Zenani  Kels  christelyn I could care less what you do, you're nobody to me. Dramatic, hmpf ain't that pot calling the kettle black. I think you're disingenuous and I think I know why. I don't hate white feminist, I don't hate no one, my life is too good and too full to worry about hating ppl, I leave that to other folks. But I'm just gonna let you talk, because this not my first time at the rodeo. 

Zindzi_Zenani 1399 pts

 eugeniaberg   Kels  christelyn I'm nobody to you but you think you know why I'm disingenuous?  Wow...if I'd know you'd dissolve into such childish name-calling antics I wouldn't have even responded to anything you said.  Here's a clue though; when you put your thoughts on a public forum, not everyone will agree.  Doesn't make them a bad person or a troll, it makes them someone who doesn't agree with you.

 

Wow...*smh*

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Zindzi_Zenani  Kels  christelyn Keep talking,..go right ahead. Shake your head all you want, I didn't call you a name called you disingenuous, that means-lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; insincere: and I still think it's true. Something about just does not ring true. 

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Zindzi_Zenani  Kels  christelyn And no I'm not calling you troll b/c you don't agree with me trolls are slicker than that now, at least they think they are. Now they come in agreement, well kinda sorta they do but eventually...you know. I'm calling you a troll at all, you called yourself that. Are we saying something? 

eugeniaberg 7245 pts moderator

 Zindzi_Zenani  Kels  christelyn And pseudo means false if you didn't know not old.

AnInterestedObserver 1029 pts

 Zindzi_Zenani  eugeniaberg   Kels  christelyn 

 

It is REAL easy to be an ally of other women when you come from a race/culture that DOES NOT beat it into your head from girlhood that girls & women who look like you are worhtless, ugly, useless mules who were put on Earth ONLY to serve the men who look like you and do whatever they desire to make them happy, your own happiness be damned. Black girls do not come out of the womb thinking this mess.

Also I have noticed that WHENEVER a Black woman or girl tries to stand up for the rights of other Black women & girls, someone(s) will come in and insult them and start whining and crying about the rights of "poor" Black men, or "poor" White women, etc and be insulting people's Black mothers for standing up to racist questions, etc. I am not attacking you, I just want you to please think about that the next time you want to talk about how White feminists are such "great allies" of Black women & girls.

Zindzi_Zenani 1399 pts

 AnInterestedObserver  eugeniaberg   Kels  christelyn AIO, just like you, my opinions on things come from MY experiences in life.  There was a time I couldn't stand white feminists and wouldn't even call myself a feminist for fear of being lumped in with them.  My views evolved as I noticed that whenever I wanted to fight against sexist issues in the Black community, I simply couldn't depend on a lot of Black womben to stand with me (I've thankfully met quite a few Black womben since then who are unashamed and unapologetic feminists). When pro-womban organizations I volunteer for need help, I can almost always be able to count more on white womben than Black womban because a lot of us don't want to be seen complaining about gender issues.  So, thanks for encouraging me to think about what I've said, but please understand I don't say anything I haven't thought about BEFORE I've said it.

 

I know what makes white womben easier allies to Black womben than some other Black womben (again, I've thought about these things; and not just based on blogs and random movements of late).  I completely understand that...that doesn't negate the fact that its true.  Like you, I've noticed that whenever someone (including me) stands up for Black womben, I have to hear about how hard Black men and white womben have it...but most of the time I hear that from other Black womben and Black men, NOT white womben or white men.

 

I mean, most of us here will agree that a lot of Black womben don't want to talk about gender issues or anything that will make Black men uncomfortable, but then people are uncomfortable with saying that a lot of white womben usually will back us up before Black womben?  I don't get it...

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

 AnInterestedObserver  Zindzi_Zenani  eugeniaberg   Kels  christelyn 

 

Easy is relative: Some people are not interesting in lending a hand where privilege is to be sacrificed. It's easy for someone to call themselves your ally and friend, but unless they have acted in a way to prove this, it's just a hollow title.

 

I feel this way about people in general: You are no friend or ally of mine unless I am certain you will reciprocate. Too many people feel like they are entitled to co-opt my individual time and energy because we have something in common. Whether it's race or gender or both.

 

And they feel entitled to receive passes on behavior that is trifling and poisonous for the same reason. 

 

The color and gender of a snake is irrelevant to me, and always will be: I have no interest in being bitten.

 

 

Just the same, I am more than willing to help and uplift persons that are about something and will do the same for me.

Zindzi_Zenani 1399 pts

 Toni_M  AnInterestedObserver  eugeniaberg   Kels  christelyn ITA.  From MY experience, I've had more assistance and support on gender issues within the Black community from white womben.  I'm not just pulling it out of my behind.  This is what I've gone through!  

Toni_M 20095 pts moderator

Zindzi_ZenaniAnInterestedObservereugeniaberg Kelschristelyn  "

I mean, most of us here will agree that a lot of Black womben don't want to talk about gender issues or anything that will make Black men uncomfortable, but then people are uncomfortable with saying that a lot of white womben usually will back us up before Black womben?  I don't get it..."

 

What you don't get is that some of us have no interest in making allies with people off of assumptions rather than definite examples of reciprocity. I feel about feminist "sisterhood" the same way I feel about "brothas": It is a level of presumed familiarity that I find distasteful and wholly inappropriate.

 

You can't trust blood relatives a lot of the time to do right by you, why on Earth would I go around presuming the motives of people I don't know and whether or not they are beneficial to me. 

 

I'd rather be cautious and skeptical and have someone work to earn my respect and trust through words AND actions, than indiscriminately assume someone is my friend and ally regardless of whether or not they have proven themselves to be, and throw myself into uplifting THEM without any guarantee my own needs will be respected and met.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not someone calls themselves a feminist, humanist, individualist - If that person has proven themselves to be on my side, then that's what's desirable. I'm not concerned with offending sensibilities over generalizations. If an individual knows what is said isn't true of them, they have no need to be huffy. Often times, the people most offended are the ones whose toes have been stepped on.