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I’ve stayed out of the Trayvon Martin fray, and mostly just observing. From those observations, I developed this question:
In regards to the Trayvon shooting, why is it that people only march and protest when a black boy is murdered? And why is it more outrageous when a non-black person kills a black person, but okay when we kill each other? And, pray tell, how are black women to interpret this perceived lack of value on their lives?
Okay, that’s like, three questions.
OK Ladies time out. I am shutting off the comments to this thread.
Everyone back to your respective corners, take a deep breath and chill.
Ladies. Please cease and desist.
The focus of this thread is about Treyvon Martin and NOT a discussion of BWE.
As you may recall Chris has stated clearly that this vlog does not blog under the BWE banner and she gave her reason for this.
Discussion what BWE is, is not, what it has and has not done is not an appropriate subject for this space.
As with any young movement BWE has its growing pains. Unfortunately they are playing out publicly and that is the call of the women who blog under the BWE banner.
As I said before this vlog does not.
Please take your concerns and this discussion re. BWE to a blog that operated under the BWE banner. Lets get this thread back on focus on the young man and not turn this into a cat fight. Treyvon Martin deserves better than that.
Brenda55
Sorry
I wonder what people think of some of Treyvon's alleged tweets. I don't want to try to make him out to be a bad guy, because I don't think he was. And from what I know, I think that Zimmerman is the one at fault for his death. But these tweets do show the casual misogyny that is taken as a given in a large part of the black community. I think this shows why BWE is needed and important. Movements aren't all about people marching in the streets. Movements can be about large groups of individuals simply making different choices.
Brice Cameron What do his tweets have to do with him being murdered? Zimmerman didn't know about them and since Zimmerman had been arrested twice for beating up womben, I don't think he would've had a problem with them.
I don't understand saying, "Zimmerman is the one at fault for his death," and then talking negatively about Trayvon. I don't think anyone said he was perfect...and at the age of 17, its not as if his views on life were all that mature or developed.
And "casual misogyny" is present in EVERY ethnicity. Not just the Black community. I know tons of white womben who can wax quite poetic about the casual and formal misogyny among white folks.
I guess I'm just at a loss as to why folks are so hell-bent on finding out every negative thing about this child as if it has anything to do with his MURDER.
Zindzi_Zenani
"What do his tweets have to do with him being murdered?"
Nothing. But due to the website this discussion is on, a large part of the debate seems to be about whether black women who are into this BWE movement should be taking part in protests about this incident. There is a camp that seems to think that there is enough focus on Black men's problems and none on the problems of Black women. Another camp seems to see this as a lack of compassion and therefore an indictment of the movement. I was just reading his tweets and wondered what people thought of them. For example:
RT @ReesyyLaTootieB: Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass p*ssy.! Tighten up.! #Literally
We all have negative things about us. That doesn't mean that we should be killed. Maybe it is insensitive to talk about the negative aspects of the recently MURDERED. I was just curious about what people thought. I am noting your response. You apparently don't want to hear about it.
I only grew up in one white community, but I don't remember much talk like this when I was growing up. I think maybe this issue is too emotionally charged to talk about.
Here's an article asking why tragedies and injustices involving Black womben don't get as much attention:
The two womben she speaks of who were kidnapped at gunpoint have been in my conscious for a while now (I'm a member of a great page called Black And Missing and Not Forgotten) and I was devastated to learn that they'd been found dead (even though most thought this was their fate).
Why haven't we spoken out for them? It is a question that deserves asking.
This link: http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhx1m61nO2t9pmK1bj shows a Black womban, who was arrested for refusing to leave a hospital when she didn't get the care she desired, DYING on the ground. The police thought she was "drug sick." Her autopsy showed no signs of drugs.
Zindzi_Zenani I cannot bear to watch that video. I think this is the second time a black woman actually died in the emergency waiting area because she was refused treatment. I remember seeing a video like that on Dateline a few years back and it is disturbing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enQIRVmFPBc&feature=g-all-u&context=G2aa4b00FAAAAAAAANAA
Is this true? (Start from about 6:00)
My latest conversation: LISTEN UP! The New Nazi Extermination Camp The Black Community Pt 2 03/27 by Lets Just Talk Radio Show | Blog Talk Radio
BlackWomenDeserveBetter Yes, it is true. Because people are using her sons image and name and selling stuff with him on it all over the country. There have even been several clubs that are making money off of "Trayvon Martin" nights and claiming to donate to the family when they are not.
So I guess you all have a problem with that even though it's not at all unusual to do in high profile murder cases. Natalee Holloway's mother did the same thing to protect her child's name/image and I don't remember the outrage over that on racist right wing talk shows like the one you just posted here.
Kels BlackWomenDeserveBetter *smh* I don't understand why they keep posting these links from conservative sites that are obviously trying to skew this thing in Zimmerman's favor. I can't understand how they could have such a lack of compassion for a child that could favor their own children. Its just shameful.
This entire situation reminds of a common phenomenon that constantly occurs to black women at the hands of people people of other races as well as black men. They antagonize you, they disrespect you, they act inappropriate with you and if you fight back you have "an attitude problem".
This is exactly what happened here on a larger much more serious scale. Zimmerman antagonized that boy regardless of whether or not he was a saint, the boy fought back and ended up losing.
Those trying to make this kid out to be a thug seem to be missing a point. Its not about black and white, that's just a red herring. Its about equal treatment and fairness. The police department didn't handle this fairly.
Avoc42883 Exactly. And your first paragraph is nothing but the gospel truth. And anyone who calls themselves invested in BWE but refuses to see acknowledge what this person went though, the same thing black women go through, simply because his skin is brown and his gender is male, is a phony.
If you aren't angry about the wrong done to this boy simply because he is a male, then you have no right to call yourself concerned about black women. Seems too many people in BWE are more about hating black men and boys simply because of the color of their skin than they are about empowering black women. And then wonder why they can't make any traction with black women and why BWE is a complete fail. Gee, I wonder why.
KelsAvoc42883
Whatever you may feel about individual black women, BWE is not a fail of any kind. Many of the posters here still read and comment at BWE blogs, present company included.
Maybe you should stop blaming BWE when individual black women don't agree with you.
Jamila I wasn't just commenting on her individual view. I felt the need to say something about what I see as a very negative aspect in the BWE community. Do I not have the right to say that. And the fact is, whether people wanna believe it or not, I find it interesting that more black women know about freakin' youtube hair and makeup gurus than they know about any of these blogs. To me, that's a fail. You may disagree, but I feel as a so called movment, well, it ain't moving.
Kels "I wasn't just commenting on her individual view. I felt the need to say something about what I see as a very negative aspect in the BWE community."
And that's the point. You SHOULD have just been commenting on her individual view because there is no BWE spokesperson and the personal opinions of the various bloggers who identify as BWE writers was not a focus of this thread.
Please keep your off-topic comments to yourself, as this is not the time or place to vent about your personal feelings against BWE.
Jamila I completely disagree. I won't critique the sacred cow of BWE in this thread again, but I completely disagree.
Kels Avoc42883 "And anyone who calls themselves invested in BWE but refuses to see acknowledge what this person went though, the same thing black women go through, simply because his skin is brown and his gender is male, is a phony."
"And then wonder why they can't make any traction with black women and why BWE is a complete fail."
I don't agree that BWE is a complete fail (if it helps one person, its helped enough), but I do believe that its odd to get pissy over other Black womben not being receptive to your message when your message sounds like something that belongs on Faux News or being spewed out the mouth of Newt or Rush! Being open to IRR doesn't mean you're open to thinking and acting like a conservative white man! After some of the anti-Islam & anti-Black male sentiments I've seen by a VERY FEW womben on here, I'd be hesitant to suggest this site to a womban opening up to IRR for fear that she'd think we all think like that. Folks have a tendency to look at the comments of a few and apply them to the group.
Zindzi_Zenani Kels Avoc42883 "I'd be hesitant to suggest this site to a womban opening up to IRR for fear that she'd think we all think like that. "
Even though most of us are BW, we all come from different backgrounds, have different experiences, different beliefs. So while we may all agree on the matter of IRR, it doesn't mean we'll be like minded in other areas. And that's okay, at least for me!
The Working Home Keeper Kels Avoc42883 Yeah, we don't all have to think alike, but some of the posts I've read are just HATEFUL, in my opinion. Just NASTY. Something I think you'd see on some kinda Aryan Nation site (especially some of the comments about Muslims).
Differing opinions is one thing...hate is another.
The name-calling and arguing in this thread is quite unsettling. As angry as some people are getting, you need to remember that no matter how outraged you are over this chaos, you cannot feel the same pain that Martin's parents feel. One day your anger will decease and you will go back to your normal lives. Martin's parents will still be living with this. I am NOT ashamed to admit that I did not and will not sign ANY petition, wear a hoodie, or participate in a protest over Trayvon Martin. No I do NOT support Zimmerman nor do I believe that he was right to go after Trayvon. It's quite possible that Trayvon beat him up after being followed...scaring the daylights out of Zimmerman who eventually shot the young man ( I won't call him a child because that's misleading, IMO). Whether Zimmerman killed Martin in cold blood is up for the courts to decide, justice or not. Either way I won't get involved because all of my energies will be spent on work favoring black women and girls. Black men can fight their own battles. This case gets attention because the victim is black and the killer is white. The Duke rape case also got a lot of attention before it was deemed a hoax. White on black crime just seems to be more newsworthy. Black on black crime is so "abundant" that it's impossible to keep up with all the coverage. It also has to be noted that the lives of young black men appear to be more valuable to blacks than those of black women. The public reaction to this case is exactly what various BWE writers have been writing about all along.
LorMarie 17 years old is a child. You issues with black people and issues in the black community don't change that. If he were a girl, he'd be a 17 year old child. His male blackness does not change that and shame on your for spewing that nonsense. What you said is NO DIFFERENT than people who deny black girls their childhood and call them women.
And this post is disgusting.
Kels LorMarie I refuse to stoop down to the level of anyone who places more value on one person's life over another. Just because some segments of our society are racist and/or sexist and treat others differently does not mean I should do the same. If you are a Christian and believe you will be judged, how will you explain to God your attitudes toward your fellow man? Other people were doing it too? You are responsible for your own actions and it is disgusting that someone will not care about the death of a possibly innocent person as some sort of way of getting revenge. It's like trying to justify reverse racism. That boy did nothing to anyone on here and to place little value on his life based upon the way other black men act is absolutely abhorrent. I would not trust a person like that around my children.
@Kels See my last line in my reply to BWDB. That is my message to you and others who are offended by my stand.
LorMarie Kels Yes, this is what you have been WRITING about. But how many rallies have you or other BWE bloggers put together. How many mainstream shows have you gone on to talk about BWE? How many BWE meetups have been put together around the country? Yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. Instead of being mad at millions of black people, who have never in their lives even heard of Black Women's Empowerment, for actually trying to do some good and rally, why don't you follow their lead and make your own rally when this happens to a black girl. See, I think a lot of this nastiness and degredation of this boy I see on BWE blogs is basically nothing but frustration at their own impotence. A set of blogs ain't a movement. Hundreds of thousands of people marching for justice is.
And finally, as we learned in feminism, you can't say I demand this, that, and the other as a black woman, but refuse to treat others the same way when they are treated the way so many black woman are.
This boy did nothing wrong and shame on your for coming here to continue the smear campaign on him. If he were a black girl, you'd be outraged. But because he is a black boy, you use smear tactics to justify what happened to him. This is no different from what black men and DBR supporters did to the young teen Amber who was sexually exploited all over the internet, blamed for what happened to her, and called "grown" when she wasn't. Just like them, you blame Trayvon and tried to call him a "man" when he's not. And that mess you wrote is a big part of the reason black women aren't trying to hear what you and BWE bloggers are selling. You think they don't have sons who are black? Or beloved nephews or brothers who are black boys? You think they're the damn problem because they are marching for their sons and their nephews and their brothers? Girl, please.
This Trayvon Martin case shows, you ladies are selling nothing but bitterness, not black female empowerment.
Yes, this is what you have been WRITING about. But how many rallies have you or other BWE bloggers put together. How many mainstream shows have you gone on to talk about BWE? How many BWE meetups have been put together around the country? Yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. Instead of being mad at millions of black people, who have never in their lives even heard of Black Women's Empowerment, for actually trying to do some good and rally"
This comment alone demonstrates that you can't possibly be an adult woman with life experience. You also know very little about grassroots organizing and what is effective today. If you did you'd know that it was the internet (blogs, twitter, etc) that fueled activism for Trayvon Martin. I'm not hear to bash anyone especially not other black women/girls. So my advice to you is to listen and learn or stay out of the movement but reap its benefits.
LorMarie Yes, it was the internet that fueled the activism for Trayvon Martin. I never said it wasn't. It was the internet that caught the eye of "black leaders" on Trayvon, not the other way around. That's not even up for discussion.
The point is, why does BWE blogs fail to ignite that kind of activism. How come, every single time something horrible happens to a black woman, the FIRST reaction by BWE blogs is to say "See, this thing has happened. Now, see how messed up Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are. They don't even care!! They can march for the Jena 6 but they can't march for black women!!" Lather, rinse, and repeat.
The response is NEVER, "See, this thing has happened. And you all need to spread the word, via Twitter, Facebook and whatever other means, that we are having a rally at 6 p.m. at 123 Yellow Brick Road, Anytown, USA to demand justice for Ms. Black Woman who was brutally raped and murdered." That is NEVER EVER EVER the response from BWE blogs, and everyone knows it.
So like I said, all these attack on this innocent BOY ain't gonna win you any converts. Attacking self-appointed black leaders for being opportunists is not gonna do anything to help black women who are victimized. But see, that's takes actual work and passion. Show and prove. That's all you have to do. Next time some foul crime happens to a black woman happens, I wanna see what kind of "action" the high and mighty BWE blogs take. Lather, rinse, repeat.
You can rest assured that BWE is in fact taking place offline. My point is that you should not make assumptions if you don't know a person. I spread the BWE word regularly just the way I did it when I was involved with other forms of activism (I have participated in protests, marches, etc). I have to say that the internet is proving to be the best battleground due to the potential to reach more people.
LorMarie I'm confused...how do you get the daylights scared out of you by someone YOU'RE stalking. How?!?
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. If you don't want to give a hoot about the case because the victim was a Black man, fine. But, to think that working to eradicate racism won't benefit Black womben is just incorrect.
I know that you are confused. There appears to be a lot of confusion on this thread especially since people are applying opinions to people that weren't stated. Gotta remember I'm not one to care what other's think or explain away my opinions to make them feel better. As I said before and my last comment here, my concern is for black women and girls which includes injustices against us. That means I'm not fighting for Zimmerman or Trayvon.
Just in case there's any confusion, I mean that people are constantly second guessing others and making assumptions that have nothing to do with what was stated.
LorMarie And it's your right to not fight for Trayvon. But don't attack others for taking to the street for him when you aren't organizing and taking to the streets when this happens to black women.
"Thousands Rally For Trayvon"
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46850322/#46850322
My latest conversation: QueenOfThePen Asks..."BLACK COMMUNITY ARE YOU PISSED OFF YET?"
@BlackWomenDeserveBetter BWDB, thank you for standing firm in your commitment to black women and girls. Your writings are among those that spoke of this very thing. Something happens to a black man, everybody's up in arms. Something happens to black women, it gets a blurb. As I said, my fight is for the women and whoever doesn't like it, can go to HELL
LorMarie BlackWomenDeserveBetter *looking around* I just posted two links about Black womben being killed and how the Black community needs to rally around them as well.
*searching* I may be wrong, I really may be...but I don't see where you or BWDB have posted anything about Black womben and our treatment...just a bunch of anti-Trayvon things. So, is helping Black womben just talking mess about Black men/boys? THAT'S your plan?
Zindzi_Zenani LorMarie BlackWomenDeserveBetter That is their plan. You see she can't answer the question. Where are all these BWE rallies for black women and girl? Because I'm not seeing them? How are you gonna criticize others for marching because you don't like that they're marching for a black male, but you don't even call for a march for all the black women you're supposedly so concerned about?!!
Kels LorMarie BlackWomenDeserveBetter Ya know, I don't have to see them in order for me to believe they occur, but how can you say you're for the advancement and protection of Black womben...and I don't see where you're saying anything about that except for saying you don't give a rat's behind about Trayvon? How does that mean you're FOR Black womben?
Zindzi_Zenani LorMarie BlackWomenDeserveBetter It doesn't. It just means you're bitter and angry and can't be bothered to put in the work it takes to organize a rally. So instead of looking at themselves, they point the finger at black people marching for something they, BWE bloggers, don't like and attack them as lost and unenlightened and haters of black women. It's so much easier to write blog post after blog post after blog post about black people ignoring violent crimes against black women then it is to actually lead a march.
For all the folks maintaining that nothing is done when we kill our own, here's a protest outside of the home of the cop who shot and killed Rekia Boyd in Chicago:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8597902
Yes, its small, but it HAPPENED.
"In regards to the Trayvon shooting, why is it that people only march and protest when a black boy is murdered?
People will march and protest for more than just black boys, but the Trayvon Martin case is an 'easy'--there is a clear villain, a clear victim, and a clear course of action (arrest and try Zimmerman) that will rectify the situation.
Solving the problem of high murder rates in a city like Detroit is a much more expansive problem and more difficult to solve. It's easy to get that deer in the headlights look when facing a problem like violence in Detroit because it is so big, and no one person can solve it.
"Who do we march on when we kill our own?"
http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2012/03/who-do-we-march-on-when-we-kill-our-own/
Jamila ^^^THIS^^^^
My latest conversation: QueenOfThePen Asks..."BLACK COMMUNITY ARE YOU PISSED OFF YET?"
I don't know if this TSW character is white, but I suspect he is. Related to the other post about The Hunger Games, I don't know why people identify by race first rather than personality or character. When i look at this situation, I identify with Trayvon. I can see myself watching the NBA all star game, going to the corner store, picking up candy and walking home in the rain. Especially at 17. I have never driven around my neighborhood strapped looking for suspicious characters to report on. This Zimmerman seems like a nut case. Take race out of it. Who seems the more reasonable person?
Brice Cameron
I'm not so sure; I think he might be Asian. He did a post over on the Republicans Alienating Voters entry that has that whole learned-English feel to it. His posts do that backstory thing, which I do, that reeks of East Asian. Anyway, I'm not feeding him. Let the troll starve.
Brenda55 Brice Cameron
Well, durn.
I think I may have guessed right, so I re-read his stuff, which included this.
"For example, almost like clockwork, in the Oakland area a group of young black males will target Asians every year. Where is the outcry from black community leaders about this? It's a fair question. "
He's Chinese! The papers that routinely report that about Oakland are Chinese newspapers written in Chinese! Nailed it!
OK, back to work, both of us. You guard the blog and I'll go do some more doctor stuff.
Brenda55 Law Wanxi Brice Cameron Thank goodness!
Sad though...a few of our regular posters agreed wholeheartedly with him. Black womben at that. Womben who, if they have sons, will have sons that might look very much like Trayvon.
*smh*
Well dayum...he pissed off the wrong reporter! http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/george-zimmerman-lawyer-abruptly-cancels-interview-lawrence-o-150530798.html
Here is the irony: if another black kid had killed Trayvon Martin, nobody would care. Sorry, but the truth hurts. As I noted, 40 people were shot in Chicago on March 17-18, and the rest of the nation – both black and white – looked away. As Brenda55 thinks, it’s mostly one thug killing another (nevermind one of the victims was a two year old girl).
I also find it ironic that on a blog that calls so many young black men out on their lousy behavior, commenters turn right around portray Trayvon Martin as model teenager. He was far from it. By any definition, he was a thug – a history of petty crime, tatted-up arms, the obligatory ghetto Myspace page, and the oxymoronically named twitter feed, “NO_LIMIT_NI**A.” Perhaps a wannabe thug and not a straight up banger, but still pretty thug. If the bullet had been fired by another 17 year old black kid, nobody would care. Certainly, there wouldn't be a blog post about it.
People will think I am saying Zimmerman is completely innocent. Unfortunately, these people cannot read well. Nowhere did I say this. What I am saying Trayvon Martin’s actions played a role in his death. Very likely, he was offended by Zimmerman following him and decided he was going to "keep it real." And predictably, “keeping it real” leads being real poor, real incarcerated, or real dead.
Perhaps more parents should emphasize this, as opposed to dwelling on the non-existent epidemic of cops and fat Hispanic men shooting black kids. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest the biggest danger to young black men isn’t from other young black men.
