An Open Letter to Black Women Who Don’t Think Feminism Is For Them

An Open Letter to Black Women Who Don’t Think Feminism Is For Them

Jamila makes a very good case for black women to embrace feminism…

Author : Jamila Akil

Author's Website | Articles from

Black women can’t stand white women. That’s really the crux of the matter and that is the primary reason why more black women don’t call themselves feminists—because black women and white women have an extremely difficult time working with each other. Anything that has even a whiff of white women on it will receive an almost visceral rejection by black women, because black women feel that if white women are involved, then it—whatever “it” happens to be—must surely be hostile to black women.

And, let’s be honest: Historically, white feminist women are returning the favor. White feminists have not been anywhere near as inclusive towards black women, or as understanding of the viewpoints of black women, as they could have been.

This state of affairs didn’t just commence yesterday. Black women and white women have a long history of viewing each other with hostility.

When black women were slaves, the white women of the house would mistreat the black women because the white women were upset that their husbands, sons, and fathers couldn’t seem to stop slipping out of the house in the dead of the night—and in the bright light of day—to have sex with slaves. Black women who were slaves resented white women because of the white mistresses’ privileged position as a white women—a privilege not afforded to black women, despite their womanhood.

When white feminists wanted access to the voting booth, those same white women showed that their feminism didn’t stop them from being racists—one prominent white feminist openly wrote about how she loathed the very idea that dark-skinned, uneducated men could get the vote before white women.

When affirmative action programs were created, white women allowed themselves to be categorized as a “minority” just the same as all non-white minorities; black women then had to watch as most of the plum AA positions went to white women, and poor men of color ended up being even further marginalized in the work force.

Even today, it is not at all uncommon for black women–feminists or not–to feel as if their concerns are not taken seriously or, at the very least, are being misunderstood by white feminists.

In 1979 Black feminist (and lesbian, and mother, and at the time the letter was written, partner to white woman) Audre Lorde wrote a personal letter to white feminist Mary Daly after reading Daly’s latest book, Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism. When Lorde did not receive a prompt reply, she published the letter as an open letter to the entire feminist community. Lorde wrote:

“The history of white women who are unable to hear black women’s words, or to maintain dialogue with us, is long and discouraging. But for me to assume that you will not hear me represents not only history, perhaps, but an old pattern of relating, sometimes protective and sometimes dysfunctional , which we, as women shaping our future, are in the process of shattering and passing beyond, I hope.”

Considering the sordid history of black women/white women relations and the differing goals of black and white women, it is easy to understand why black women reject feminism—because the movement has been associated with white women and their issues, and because white women have often made it seem as if the feminist movement was “their” movement.

White women got Ms Magazine, Black Women got ESSENCE

But black women reject feminism to their own detriment. In fact, black women probably have far more to gain from feminism than even white women, since black women often bear the brunt of misogyny not only on account of their femaleness, but on account of their blackness, which compounds the negative reception that black women all too often receive.

Writing in her book Black Sexual Politics: African Americans, Gender, and the New Racism, black feminist Patricia Hill Collins said:

“The growth of prison culture in the 1980’s greatly influenced African American social organization, especially for young African American men. In particular, the arrest and imprisonment of Black street gangs in the 1970’s and 1980’s fostered more pronounced and organized gang structures within prisons that became conduits for hierarchies of masculinity. Prison gangs inevitably became connected to their street gang counterparts (in fact, many join gangs while in prison, primarily for protection.)…this growing interconnectedness of prison, street, and youth culture, with the importance given to hierarchies of masculinity, affects African American neighborhoods and families.”

The same passage continues to note that the growing misogyny within heterosexual love relationships is also a direct result of the growing incarceration of African American men and the “ceaseless need to prove one’s manhood.” This growing misogyny is mainly being directed at black women.

Marrying a non-black man doesn’t do anything to reduce the amount of violence suffered by black women. Yeah, it might improve the life of the individual woman that marries out, but it does nothing to destroy the infrastructure—of thought, word, and deed—that supports and approves of the racist, gendered violence that gets directed at black women all over the world every day.

“The valorization of strength coupled with the economic exploitation of Black women’s paid labor and unpaid labor for their families sets up a curious set of relationships. Black men may desire those black women who make them feel more “manly,” that is, whose appearance and demeanor more closely approximate that of pretty white women. Yet these same men were often raised by strong black mothers and also may depend on their girlfriends and mothers of their children for financial support. They need [emphasis in original] these strong black women to ensure their physical survival, yet neither value them nor see them as feminine. This establishes a dangerous situation that encourages Black men to become abusive toward the women who many see as controlling their lives. As hustlers who live off women’s money, these irresponsible boys develop hyper-masculine identities and use a Black male promiscuity to economically exploit Black and White women.”

For a perfect example of this hyper-masculinity in action, recall the recent tragedy of black football payer Jovan Belcher shooting the mother of his child, Kasanda Perkins, before eventually turning the gun on himself. Jovan Belcher had a history of violence—he punched through a pane of glass, almost severing his thumb, when he was angry with a former girlfriend. Belcher was a heavy drinker who kept numerous weapons in his home. The night before Belcher killed Kasandra he had been out with a “female friend” and had fallen asleep at the wheel of his vehicle with the car running on a public street. When police roused him from his slumber, he told one of the officers that he needed to get home to “deal with his other girl”. That other girl was Kasandra Perkins, whom he eventually went home to shoot nine times during an argument in which he was heard yelling at her “you can’t talk to me like that.”

Page 1 2 3 4

Be Sociable! Share!
Pinterest


Related Posts


Post comment as twitter logo facebook logo
Sort: Newest | Oldest
ironcowboy 324 pts

 

I did not even get past the 3rd paragraph before I gagged…  (yawn…everybody is a racists except me…)

 

Gee it kind of sounds like you are saying that black women are blatant racists too… Really who has a “visceral rejection” to nearly anything that a white woman touches… except a raging racist!

 

Your ideology is really heartbreaking!  Did you notice that your man has won the presidency a second time… and still you complain about how bad it is…

 

Black women are eagerly receptive to the ideology of the white women Margaret Sanger… you know her, the white woman who founded Planned Parenthood, and who believed that black women were a disease that needed eradicated.

 

Margaret Sanger, white woman, and a leading feminists… who has been leading black women down the abortion is a financial liberation road for 50 years.

 

Can I get a big Amen for Hillary in 2016?  Halleluiah!   More white feminism that black women can and must swallow… Because god forbid a liberal be forced to attack a fellow liberal, regardless of color.

 

Q#1, Has unlimited abortion on demand for (mostly) black women made the black community stronger over the last 30 years?  Or is 80% of the black community still in a wretched state of affairs, financially and morally.

 

Q#2, When did back women get emancipated from the white liberal feminists plantation in the 1st place?  …Seems to me that 80% of black women are stuck permanently in those chains and are being used as tools by the ruling elitists white feminists like Hillary Clinton and native America Elizabeth Warren. 

 

You are aware that 95% of the time that a black woman is a crime victim that it’s a black person commenting the violent act right?

 

Here is an idea… how about separate but equal feminism for white and black women!

iHeartLove 804 pts

The problem with these kind of pro or against feminism stances is that there is no given definition of feminism to be for or against. 

 

If you've taken women's studies classes or have studied feminism then you know there are many different schools of thought and that they often have opposite or very different viewpoints. There are so many branches and they change all the time. Feminism was once a movement, but in my mind, in 21st century America, it is more a philosophy or a belief one can hold and use to influence their actions. Philosophies grow and change and can be influenced by the writings of others and that is what has happened to feminism.  I find it is more of an activist movement in places where there are less basic rights for women. 

 

Saying I am pro or against feminism tells you very little about what a person believes or doesn't believe about the rights of women and their place in society. We have to be more specific. 

Brenda55 19648 pts moderator

Just throwing this in the mix.

Make of it what you like.



 VIDEO
Meet Femen's Topless Feminist Activists

http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/266762/

zabeth 817 pts

 Brenda55

 I see what they're trying to do, I think. They're trying to take control of their sexuality and beauty for their own benefit. I think in places where women are more sexually oppressed becuase the culture is more macho (i.e. Ukraine,  India, the Middle East) this would make sense- but could also be very dangerous.

SirLoinDeBeef 2527 pts

Feminism and women’s happiness - Posted on October 14, 2010 by Dalrock

 

I’m not the first to note that feminism tends to make women unhappy.  For example, many have pointed out that it makes women unhappy by suggesting they arrange their lives in ways less likely to make them happy. Stressing career over family, stressing the need to dominate their husbands, etc.

 

But feminism also has from its inception been about convincing women that they are terribly unhaaappy. This is a foundational step for any group wanting to introduce sweeping changes. People won’t accept let alone push for change if they are happy with the status quo.  Feminism wants to keep pushing social change, so they can’t afford to let up on their message to women that unless they are a fool they should be terribly unhaaappy.

 

But this blog is about solutions.  Women can be happy.  The patriarchy has merely tricked you into choosing the wrong options.  Therefore, all you have to do is make different choices.  You know, the ones where the deck isn’t stacked against you.  To achieve true happiness as a woman, all you have to do is avoid all of the following unhaaappy options the patriarchy wants to force you into:

 

Life’s work:

 

If a full time mother being supported by a husband: Your life lacks the meaning and fulfillment your husband enjoys by having a career.  Raising kids is pointless drudgery imposed on women by the patriarchy.

 

If a full time career woman: You are being deprived of the right to fulfill your all important maternal instinct.  The patriarchy has forced you to abandon your dreams of fulfillment via motherhood, and trapped you in a pointless, thankless job.

 

If you have a career and children: You are being forced to do double work by the patriarchy.  You work the dreaded second shift.  Both jobs are pointless, thankless, drudgery.

 

If your husband agrees to be a stay at home dad while you focus on the role of breadwinner: Your husband is sponging off of you, while enjoying the great rewards of caring for your children.  You are forced into thankless drudgery in a career.

 

Marital Status:

 

If unmarried: Men have failed you in some way. They either failed you by being unworthy of marriage in your eyes, or they refuse to do their duty and marry you (fear of commitment!).  This is true even if you divorced one or more previous husbands.

 

If married: You are trapped in by binding agreement, prevented from fulfilling your life’s desires.

 

Leadership role in the marriage:

 

If the husband has it: He is a tyrant who dominates you and prevents you from being a full human being.  No act of violence or deception on your part is beyond the pale of acceptable responses to such an unbearable situation.

 

If the wife has it (AKA shared leadership): He is a loser.  You feel like his mother.

 

The Working Home Keeper 6638 pts

 SirLoinDeBeef Dalrock is one of my daily reads - great stuff!

 
Elegance 2096 pts

I have about 7 reasons why I don't identify as a feminist and only one has to do with them not paying attention to Black women and their issues. The rest have to do with them labeling things as problems when I don't think they are, the solutions to problems that I think are dangerous, their publicity stunts, their goals, statements they have made, and issues I have with their theories. 

 

I don't reject feminism because I hate white women or because I'm jealous or envious of them. I don't hate white women (I watch them on TV, I listen to their music, I work with them and talk to them, and some are very nice.) I'm not jealous per se, but the ones I admire are the feminine ones who exemplify standards that I hold for myself, so this does not include feminists and I am not jealous of feminists. I recently heard of surveys indicating that only 3/10 women identify themselves as feminists and this is even lower among younger women. This means many women, including White women, are also rejecting feminism probably for reasons other than race. They have valid concerns not just hatred or jealousy. I highly doubt White women are thinking about slave masters being with black women and that this fuels their attitudes, from what I've noticed, White people barely think about slavery. 

 

There are plenty of theories that people can use to understand black male/female relations and society including social psychology, sociology, criminology, racial studies, economics, anthropology etc. without bringing in feminist theory at all. A lot of these are scientific fields who conduct studies to support their theories or use statistics and data collected from small to large samples (e.g., census data). I rely on the theories and findings of these fields rather than feminism. 

jakethewrestler 402 pts

 Elegance Are you 'Ellegant Girl' from youtube?? I think white and black female relationships are very beneficial and use it as a tool when teaching and when I mentor young black women.  It often is a nice get away from their typical drama issues.

Elegance 2096 pts

 jakethewrestler Oh no that's not me but I have seen her before. My closest friends have always been Asian for some reason. Things never became close enough with White women but I don't hate them. 

Butterfly1 601 pts

 jakethewrestler  Elegance

 It is not only drama between black women all the time.  I have had girlfriends (black) who I have been friends with for years with no drama.  We all arent like the women on Reality shows.

The Working Home Keeper 6638 pts

 Elegance "don't reject feminism because I hate white women or because I'm jealous or envious of them. I don't hate white women (I watch them on TV, I listen to their music, I work with them and talk to them, and some are very nice.) I'm not jealous per se, but the ones I admire are the feminine ones who exemplify standards that I hold for myself, so this does not include feminists and I am not jealous of feminists."

 

Same here.  Having a white husband, I now have white female relatives - a mother-in-law, grandmother-in-law and sister-in-law that I love dearly.  As well as the white wives of my husband's friends.  And in general from just living and working in a predominantly white area, friends, coworkers, neighbors and acquaintances.  I don't hate white women and I'm not concerned about knocking them off their pedestals - I have my own pedestal!

 

Some feminists have disdain for men, particularly white men (like my husband).  Some also have very little respect for women who choose a more traditional path.  Would a feminist respect my choice to submit to my husband within our marriage?  I doubt it.  Some also seem to abhor any and everything considered traditionally feminine. 

I honestly dont think that white women sincerely care about the issues of black women and have no real interest in seeing black women rise.  I think that black women who think this are sadly delusional. 

 

Also, I am suprised that  no one called you on the fact that you stated that most black women hate white women.  I am stunned that you would state that considering you dont know most black women.  In addition to that I could state that most white women hate black women.  That would be considered an ignorant statement whether it is true or not.  My parents never talked about white people when I was growing up.  My dad's best friend was white.  They were older and they just never talked about white people too much.  So I went into the world with a clean slate.  In fact, I was disillusioned when I went out into the world.  However, because of my daily experiences with white women, even when I am not looking for it, I believe that there is some disdain that a LOT of them have for black women especially half way attractive ones.. SMH

jakethewrestler 402 pts

can you explain how white women treat black woman?  I  believe you.  It  just I never notice the antics groups of people do to each other.  Ppl tend not to do ingorant things or ignorant comments in front of me.   But I have noticed girl jealously.  It that the core?

 jakethewrestler

 Just little things for example, if you dont care for someone just ignore them.  Dont go out of your way to make sure that they know that you dont like them.  Just ignore them.   I would like to just be ignored.   I think that is more disdain as opposed to jealousy that goes back to the days of slavery.  The same way that some black men hate white men because of what some white men did to them during slavery and they have a legitimate gripe.  I think that some not all white women have a disdain for black women because of the fact that white men during slavery would keep black women as mistresses and even had them living in the house in some cases.  Even though slavery is over a lot of those attitudes were passed down over generations.  

 

If you have seen Lincoln and Django Unchained, a lot of attitudes have not changed much.  People are just careful about not saying what they say behind closed doors. And I overhead a staff of white people having a conversation about black people when they thought that I was not around.  People who I really liked.  People who made me feel comfortable and included even though I was the only black on staff in a predominantly secluded area.  The things that I heard them say I would never believe if someone else told me.

 

Anyway to give you one example, when I was out at a restaurant with a male friend, the waitress was really mean.  I could not believe it.  I did not say anything to the guy I was with until we walked out.  I usually wouldnt because things like that men dont notice..  She made me feel so uncomfortable that I left early and we wanted to stay and sit and talk.  So I said to him "did you notice how she was acting toward me"?  He said yes and I was happy to get out of there.  Now this is something that happens routinely when it is a white waitress.  This guy was the most easy going guy in the world.  I usually pick my battles so I called the restaurant when I got home because I thought that I should.  Explained to manager that I treated her with respect, gave her a 20% tip and she made me feel extremely uncomfortable.  Manager did not seem suprised called me back apologized and told me the waitress broke down.  Now this waitress might have just been in a bad mood but it happens so commonly with white waitresses. 

 

I have other instances but dont want to be off topic.

 

I dont care about being friends with white women.  I dont want to hold hands and sing kum ba ya.  I just want to be left alone when I leave outside of my home.  It is even more common now than before the interracial dating between bm/ww increased.   It could also have something to do with Obama being president and the economy.  But it is something that you learn to live with.  I find myself having to be a bitch a times.  Otherwise, I live a pretty peaceful life.

jakethewrestler 402 pts

 

OK I do recall long time ago college white females laughing at the idea of a beautiful black girl and other mistreats.  But since college I cannot recall any issues of white females being nasty to black women but like you alluded some of this is inherent.  But friendships between bw and ww are healthy especially if the black girl has been isolated from other races andif the black girl gets into a lot of drama with other black females.   Plus black women can use white women as stepping stones, to exploit her dominate attributes.

 jakethewrestler

 Sorry to be off topic again but just to add--- white women are more passive/aggressive with racism; less violent than men so it is often overlooked.  But I call it out when I think I should.

Butterfly1 601 pts

 jakethewrestler

 I dont know about these people Jake.  I can only tell you about my experiences.  I just had another bad experience today with two white waitresses.  Again not looking for it.  There is something in the air over the last few years. I really have no sympathy for white women right now for ANYTHING that they experience.   The women that I had the bad  experiences with can drop dead for all I care.   I know that sounds terrible and that I will probably be around a really sweet white girl tomm just because I feel this way today but I am so exhausted!!!!

zabeth 817 pts

IMO, I don’t think women, period, really like each other all that much- with the exception of close personal friends (I'm specific about friends because friends are often chosen, family is not). We’re all competing for the same resources (men, jobs, etc.). Granted men compete with each other for similar things (women, jobs, status, etc.) but I think men compete in a different way. Women are less direct and more passive aggressive in their style of competition. Perhaps this is a method of survival as women can’t be as direct as men. I stress that this is only MY opinion and it does not apply to all women.

 

A good book that touches on this is “Woman's Inhumanity to Woman” by Phyllis Chesler. I started reading it some time ago but couldn’t finish it, it made me too angry.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Womans-Inhumanity-Woman-Phyllis-Chesler/dp/1556529465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357257487&sr=8-1&keywords=woman%27s+inhumanity+to+woman

 zabeth

 I agree Zabeth but is something different with white women.  With black women, it is usually some type of confrontation of some sort about something really dumb and small with black women.  But often there is either warmth or indifference that I experience with black women and even latinas or asian women and a coldness and a rudeness with white women.  I am easygoing and I come across as mild mannered.  I dont brush it off as just women.  It is more common with white women and I did not experience this 5 years ago.  Five years ago, they just ignored me and I loved that.  Now they go out of their way (some) to let you know that they dont like you.  It is not my imagination.

 

I also dont think that ALL black women are treated the same by white women for various reasons that I wont get into.  So we really cant say that ALL of our experiences are the same.

iHeartLove 804 pts

 zabeth "IMO, I don’t think women, period, really like each other all that much- with the exception of close personal friends"

 

THIS!

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

I was going to finish off my article with this quote from "Ain't I a Woman," but I'll put it here instead. 

 

"Today masses of black women in the US refuse to acknowledge that they have much to gain by feminist struggle.  They fear feminism.  They have stood in place so long that they are afraid to move. They fear change.  They fear losing what little they have.  They are afraid to openly confront white feminists with their racism or black males with their sexism, not to mention confronting white men with their racism and sexism...I know their fear exists because they have seen us trampled upon, raped, abused, slaughtered, ridiculed, and mocked.  Only a few black women have rekindled the spirit of feminist struggle that stirred the hearts and minds of our 19th century sisters.  We, black women who advocate feminist ideology, are pioneers. We are clearing a path for ourselves and our sisters.  We hope that as they see us reach our goal--no longer victimized, no longer unrecognized, no longer afraid--they will take courage and follow." 

Oaktown Paul 844 pts

 Jamila "Today masses of black women in the US refuse to acknowledge that they have much to gain by feminist struggle.  They fear feminism."

 

I do not know much about this subject, but "maybe" the fear is justified.  

 

So, having read a good number of articles on this site (as well this very informative article on feminism), let's see if I understand the "fear of feminism."  (Having only a limited knowledge of feminism, my comments are primarily directed to the general perception of feminism --- especially as they might apply to the world of dating and mating.)

 

As noted in the comments below, men quite frequently have a "negative" view towards what little they know about feminism. Specifically, a good many men would agree "there is very little of the FEMININE in feminism.  (See SirLoinDeBeef's comment below.)  The more vocal leaders of the feminist movement have communicated a non-feminine persona that men perceive as negative. 

 

The feminist rejection of traditional (I suppose feminist would call patriarchal) femininity --- as understood by men --- might lead to some difficulties in the area of dating.  However, if I am correctly understanding the argument, this is not a problem for white women as a group.  Why?  White women have been granted the status (by our current patriarchal system) of being highly attractive, and the perception of their not being feminine does not significantly interfere with their ability to enter into the relationships which interest them.  To put it bluntly, while some guys might avoid dating a feminist, white women have the privilege of knowing there are enough people (of whatever race or gender) who will readily date and marry a white feminist. For white women, dating is a personal challenge (as it is for everyone), but it is not a collective challenge for the entire group.  

 

However. black women are decidedly in a different predicament. Stereotypes like "the Mammy" and "the Saphire" already prevent a significant number of men from appreciating that many black women do, in fact, embody an attractive feminine spirit.  What is interesting to me, now that I am paying better attention, I now find that a good number of black women are actually more "feminine" than their white female counterparts.

 

The perception of masculine and feminine is important because, for the vast majority of us --- regardless of of race, gender or sexual orientation --- the masculine is attracted to the feminine, and the feminine is attracted to the masculine. With some exceptions (where the people are genuinely neutral), this polarity of attraction even exists in the LGBT community.  

 

Thus, black women (who are indeed "feminine") who openly self identify as "feminists" might end up sending the wrong message --- especially if their intended audience (masculine men of any race) perceive they are not feminine. Moreover, not having the same patriarchal/institutional  advantage as white women, black women are at risk of being further misunderstood or ignored if they identify / introduce themselves as feminists.  Conceivably, self-identifying as a feminist increases the likelihood that a black women will be "perceived" as more masculine. While this might be OK for some individuals, it could be problematic to the goal of interracial dating if black women were stereotyped as mostly being "feminists."  

 

Due to the perceptions created by the most vocal feminists, most guys I know generally aren't looking to date a feminist.   (Due to my orientation, all else being equal --- I would walk by a white feminist (who I might perceive as being more masculine) and, instead, would rather choose to be with a black woman who openly identifies as being feminine. 

 

In short, the term "feminist" has been used (or abused) in such a way that it now generates a strong negative connotation amongst men,  And while good ideas that have arisen as part of the feminist movement are worth discussing and sharing, I can certainly see why some might "fear" how the coupling of "black" and "feminism" might not serve the immediate interests of black women who are more feminine than feminist.   

temple 796 pts

@Oaktown Paul @Jamila Oaktown Paul, thought provoking comment. Personally I don't have any problem w/feminism & have always practiced my personal version of it. I do strongly feel that black women would benefit from a feminism seperate from white feminism & seperate from womanism (womanism traditionally encompasses the rights of black men. That's my understanding from reading womanist theory). Black women would be better served by stepping back & creating something that works to serve their onterests. . .not everyone else & black women last.

Brenda55 19648 pts moderator

 temple  Oaktown  Jamila "I do strongly feel that black women would benefit from a feminism seperate from white feminism & seperate from womanism (womanism traditionally encompasses the rights of black men. That's my understanding from reading womanist theory). Black women would be better served by stepping back & creating something that works to serve their onterests. . .not everyone else & black women last."

 

This is what BWE is all about.

SirLoinDeBeef 2527 pts

Given my personal & professional experiences over the last 40 years (20 of which in a female-dominated arena) ... the concept of male=danger= hatred ... the female detonation of marriage for cash and prizes ... the gleeful alienation of children from their biological fathers ... the acceptance of, nay, the promotion of lesbian relationships as the desired norm ... the push for a sterile, manless State welfare system in place of stable heterosexual marriage ... the continued twisting of contemporary religon and politics to serve a female-dominance society worldview ... the continuing shrill chants of man=fish=bicycle ... I have concluded that there is very little of the FEMININE in feminism.

zabeth 817 pts

What I find interesting about the welfare and feminism discussion is that:

 

1.)    Welfare was originally intended for WW who had been abandoned by their husbands or widowed. http://www.amazon.com/American-Dream-Three-Nations-Welfare/dp/0143034375/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357244618&sr=8-1&keywords=deparle

 

2.)    Many white feminists today may advocate for extended benefits for (minority) single mothers but it is NOT an ideal situation they would want for themselves, their daughters, or sisters. Those women would either get married (mostly like to someone with a high powered career) or not have children. As Christelyn has noted, be suspicious of those who advocate for one set of values for others but live their lives in a very different way.   

 

But regardless, I don’t think that BW and WW are on the same page regarding our diverging interests and as Kia noted below BW are going to have to work toward their own interests and goals instead of trying to worry about aligning themselves with others.

zabeth 817 pts

With that said, it just occurred to me that even among BW our needs and interests are very fractured and divergent. There are groups of women like those of us here who want BW to feel empowered in their lives and decisions; and then there are BW who are perfectly happy with the status quo as it is. If BW can’t even get on the same page with each other how can we expect to get on the same page with WW?

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

 zabeth "and then there are BW who are perfectly happy with the status quo as it is. If BW can’t even get on the same page with each other how can we expect to get on the same page with WW?"

 

While I do think feminism for everybody (a plug for the name of another bell hooks book) I also think that many, if not most, black women are happy with the status quo--even if that status quo leaves then the most often raped women on the face of the Earth and the most likely to be abused in most other ways.

 

I also think black women who aspire to the pedestal that they think white women are leaving vacant will probably never be feminists.

 

I also think that there are many women who fear being political (i.e. rocking the boat in any way, shape, or form) and these women will sit back and silently benefit from the victories of feminists, all the while avoiding joining hands with them.

 

Every black women is obviously not cut out for feminism. 

 

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

 zabeth "Many white feminists today may advocate for extended benefits for (minority) single mothers but it is NOT an ideal situation they would want for themselves, their daughters, or sisters."

 

I don't think any feminists are claiming that poor mothers needing assistance is an ideal situation, but whether or not it is an ideal situation those women and children still need help. Even if these poor women didn't get any help is there a man standing by somewhere to put them and the kids in a nice house while he goes out to work?Nope. I say we need both--a liberal welfare state to help those who fall through the cracks and we need to push for changes in our society that will make unions which produce children more stable.

 

I prefer to say "both/and" rather than "either/or."  

Brenda55 19648 pts moderator

My response to this article Jamilia is this.

 

You keep chopping but no chips are flying as far as I am concerned.  I am firmly in the camp of BWE and not the feminist one, white or black.

 

There is a big difference in empowering black women and attempting to empower the black collective with black women's concerns being a subset of that.

 

Halima Anderson explained the difference best in this post from last January

 http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/there-is-black-woman-empowerment-and.html

 

And in this one for this year.

http://www.dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/

 

I will close with this.

 

Think About Your Own Circumstances

by Khadija Nassif on January 31st, 2010

 

http://sojournerspassport.com/think-about-your-own-circumstances/ 

 

 

“DON’T CONFUSE NONBLACK WOMEN’S CONTEXTS WITH YOUR CONTEXT

African-American women often buy into ideas that have no real relevance to their particular circumstances. This often comes up whenever Black women discuss the importance of marriage.

When analyzing ideas, Black women should keep their own circumstances in the forefront. African-American women are operating in a context that no other group of women are operating in. Other women may face similar issues, but at nowhere near the rate of African-American women. Black women need to stop tripping, recognize that other women’s context is not our context, and respond accordingly.

African-American women are operating in a context of a huge unmarried rate (relative to all other types of people) and a 70 percent-plus illegitimate child rate. In this context, African-American women can’t afford the luxury of calling ourselves “overcoming” the perception that we want legitimate marriage—just like every other race and ethnic group of women on the planet.

To paraphrase some other important points that Halima has made in earlier comments and blog posts:

Unlike the White female theorists who can afford to characterize marriage as a site of oppression, African-American women need to understand that marriage is important as a potential site for division of the hard work involved in raising children. Unlike the current situation where African-American women are bearing almost sole responsibility for raising Black children (as is clear from the 70 percent-plus out of wedlock rate).

Unlike women from other ethnic and racial groups, African-American women are being targeted for male disassociation and social disfellowship.

White women are generally protected and provided for within overall White American society (see the examples of how David Letterman and Kanye West were quickly chastised for publicly demeaning a White woman). White women can afford to talk that stuff about how they refuse to be “obsessed with marriage”—because they’re already reaping the benefits of marriage!

African-American women can’t afford the luxury of characterizing desire for marriage as “obsession” with marriage. African-American women are suffering the real consequences of the absence of marriage within the African-American collective. Consequences like the physical danger posed by legions of (mostly fatherless) predatory, violent criminals. Physically dangerous environments like Dunbar Village are one of many results of an absence of stable, two-parent families created by marriage.

I’m not talking about marriage as somehow saving the African-American collective. I’m talking about how the mass absence of marriage is drastically lowering the quality of Black women’s lives. And sometimes, such as within many Black residential areas, is creating physical danger to Black women.

White women and other women can afford to “trip,” and pretend like they don’t know the reasonable availability of marriage opportunities within their own group is doing something good and important for them (and their children). African-American women can’t afford to “trip” like that.

No, I’m not saying that marriage always results in a stable family. But common sense, and empirical observation of the conditions within Black residential areas, should tell us that marriage greatly increases the odds of having a stable, productive family in which children are properly reared and socialized. So they’re less likely to turn into monsters like the single-parent raised Dunbar Village demons.

When Black women discuss marriage, I think it’s critical that we detangle and separate what I believe is the legitimate promotion of marriage from the disrespectful, insulting beliefs promoted about single or childless women.

The legitimate importance, value and benefits of an “MRS degree” need to be uncoupled from the disrespect of “You and your life ain’t sh*t because you ain’t got no man/kids.” Right now, it’s all mixed together and I think that demeaning message is what causes some Black women to balk when they hear marriage being promoted as something valuable.

I will also note that large numbers of gays and lesbians understand the value and importance of marriage. That’s why they’re clamoring to be able to have legally recognized marriages. In fact, one might say that large numbers of gays and lesbians are “obsessed” with marriage. This is one example of how, as quiet as it’s sometimes kept, other people recognize the value and importance of marriage.

Don’t let anybody trick you into feeling embarrassed about wanting marriage (if that’s what you want). Don’t let anybody pressure you into doing without the lifestyle you want. Don’t confuse other people’s circumstances and contexts with your own. Instead, examine ideas from the vantage point of your own particular context and circumstances. And move forward into fulfilling, abundant, optimal lives.

 

 

 

 

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

Brenda55

"There is a big difference in empowering black women and attempting to empower the black collective with black women's concerns being a subset of that."

 

Black women feminists are not attempting to make black female empowerment a subset of black collective empowerment.

 

I also support BWE and I'm a feminist. BWE speaks to individual black women and girls: Get wise about your situation and get out. Feminism is about dismantling the pernicious ideas and modes of behavior that put black women in such an awful bind in the first place, so that the next black woman or girl will have it easier. 

 

 

 Brenda55

 Excellent response, Brenda!!!!!

pioneervalleywoman 365 pts

I find it fascinating that so many black people were supportive of the welfare state when it was being expanded in the 1960s through "the War on Poverty," at the same time people seemed not to realize the significance of the Moynihan report. Too many were seeing the so-called "strengths" of black women from slavery, ie., matriarchy and so forth, as something to be admired rather than recognizing that these were emergency responses to crisis. Making excuses for black men's lack of presence in the home (slavery and the great migration) only led to the community refusing to see black men as grown up men accountable for themselves and others, an infantilizing, which had not existed before. Older old school men were proud to "be men," while younger men seemed proud to be seen as children, unaccountable, that white racism, etc., "made them do it...," abandon their families, commit crimes, etc. They couldn't be held resposible.


Thus began an unholy alliance between white liberals and black people, with black women's interests in safety, marriage and family being comprised, and with their consent. Loyalty to black men led them to minimize black men's accountability, or to act as though they didn't care. I think as well, that too many black women are caught up in the narrative of black women "not needing a man," not wanting dependence on a man, etc., that they support single motherhood and the welfare state, especially when they think of men as dangerous to women (so much of the scholarly literature on this seems to fit into this notion of "maleness=danger). 


 Of course, there are those who support single men because they don't see black men as being marriageworthy, especially when they didn't grow up in a two-parent home. Of course, black men say in turn that black women are not "submissive," etc. in their adherence to the "strong black woman" meme. They use this rationale in explaining why they go to non-black women. Black women in turn argue that black men are intimidated by strong black women. Nonetheless, "the strong black woman" thing leads them to become single mothers.


 I agree, Black women supporting single motherhood and the welfare state only others them as women, a scapegoat for conservatives. It enables white liberal feminists to see black women as their experiments for social policy at the same time they maintain their traditional position of superiority: marriage and family. Moreover, when white women pursue the non-traditional, single motherhood, they are not seen in the same way...as per Kim Khardasian, etc. There are whole industries set up to support white women's choices in ways black women's choices are not-chivalry plus white feminism.

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

 pioneervalleywoman "Making excuses for black men's lack of presence in the home (slavery and the great migration) only led to the community refusing to see black men as grown up men accountable for themselves and others,..."

 

I don't think its about making excuses as much as it is about people needing to understand that black men were just as helpless in many ways as black women; both black men and women were unable to live up to a white patriarchal standard that dictated how men and women were to behave. So you have black men angry with black women because said women weren't able to act just like white women and you have black women angry angry with black men because black men weren't able to act like white men. Both sides are angry with each other but someone needs to ask whether or not the ruler that we are using to measure each other by is the real problem.  Even if every black woman in America had up and quit her job to be a stay at home mother in the 1950's, there simply weren't enough white men willing to give black men high-paying enough jobs to enable black men to support stay-at-home wives. 

 

Black women and men have serious problems with each other related to gender issues. 

 

"Moreover, when white women pursue the non-traditional, single motherhood, they are not seen in the same way...as per Kim Khardasian, etc."

 

Kim Kardashian isn't a good example of anything. I would venture to say that most people think of Kim as being low class and that many people also think that Kim has been "tarnished" by her dalliances with black men. 

Bellydancer 789 pts

Thank you for this post Jamila. I think people sometimes get caught up in feminism as a word and not what it should be advocating for. Voting rights, property rights, education and political power were not just handed to women even though the women today who reject feminism benefit from what other women fought for and that's why you see a divide with the younger feminists and the older ones as well.

oekmama 1047 pts

Excellent article. This feels like a three-year Women's Studies course in one sitting. I know I will revisit this article, and the sources cited several times. Thank you.

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

 oekmama "Ain't I a Woman: black women and feminism" and "Feminist theory: from margin to center"--both by bell hooks--are absolutely must reads for those interested in feminism from a black female standpoint. 

NikWarrensson 9 pts

Feminism has destroyed its own credibility by excessive hatred.

Oaktown Paul 844 pts

 NikWarrensson I agree and disagree. I've had conversations with extremely radical feminists (I do live near Berkeley) who literally want to rid the world of men to conquer the scourge of "patriarchy."  Not so nice, and much too similar to the idea of "ethnic cleansing" for my taste. But I cannot judge a group or a movement by only listening to its most radical members. I therefore appreciate reading this article on feminism because it is articulate, insightful and respectful of the notion that some men and some women  "choose" not to be at war with each other. Great Article.             

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

 Oaktown Paul   NikWarrensson Thank you Paul! 

onmywayup 1799 pts

 Oaktown Paul   NikWarrensson "I've had conversations with extremely radical feminists (I do live near Berkeley) who literally want to rid the world of men to conquer the scourge of 'patriarchy.'"

 

Eww. What in the world?? Misandrists disguised as feminists. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

I think there's been a stigma attached to feminism because so many women are divided about it.

 

You have black women who feel it doesn't benefit us because it was founded and orchestrated by white women, so we're like "What do we get out of it"?

 

Then you have the women who adhere to the traditional male and female gender roles, and are comfortable with them, and feel like feminism interferes with it. To them it's like "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

 

Then last but not least you have the women who feel a lot of feminist are hypocrites because they demand respect outside of gender roles and values but at the same time preach morally corrupt activities as "not following society's standards for women".

 

I don't think it's a bad thing for women to have the different views of feminism I think it'll help moreso than hurt because feminism has many parts to it, there was many different levels of the movement.

 

I don't see feminism as a bad thing or something to pedestal place, for me it's just I want women mainly black women as I am one, to benefit from whatever the cause may be. We don't have a support system so it's time to start helping one another. Being black and female is already a burden whether we think so or not, because we know  how society feels.

Jamila 7285 pts moderator

"You have black women who feel it doesn't benefit us because it was founded and orchestrated by white women,"

 

I think it's unfortunate that so many people think white women "founded" feminism. There have always been women of various colors and ethnic backgrounds advancing a feminist agenda.  

simplytoyin 70 pts

 Jamila yup like minna speaks on here http://www.msafropolitan.com/2012/06/feminism-has-always-existed-in-africa.html http://www.msafropolitan.com/2012/01/white-women-black-men-african-feminists.html

http://blackfeminists.org/2012/10/23/dear-vagenda-editors/ 

http://nerdsevolving.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/what-black-women-were-white-women.html the comments are worth it.

 

Though I can see why there is a divide if when black women feminists of colour speak on their issues it's not made forefront. Sometimes, it is frustrating so one might throw hands up and just focus on those who are for you and with you. Not just as a prop for their issues alone whether race or gender.  Can't say i blame them, i know many people who do not identify as feminists but believe in some of its principles especially to do with health, choice, equality etc and they do great work. It's the stigma the title seems to now represent that turns plenty away.

jakethewrestler 402 pts

This article gives credence that black woman = True Woman in their desires, strength, beauty, and realism. Black woman deserve the best and I smh wondering why this planet is not their palace. Articles like this give partial explanations. I cannot imagine this earth spinning without black woman. Im sure a lot of people reading this are not keen on the welfare state but most of us I imagine totally agree a lot more needs to be done to lift YOUNG people out of poverty.  God Bless.