Black Women vs. Black Women: Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?

Black Women vs. Black Women: Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?

Vivica A. Fox versus Crystal Wright on BET’s Don’t Sleep once again depicts Black women in constant competition with one another. Political debate aside, both women made fools of themselves.

Author : Jenn M. Jackson

Author's Website | Articles from

Recent appearances by actress Vivica A. Fox and columnist Crystal Wright on BET’s Don’t Sleep, hosted by BET personality T.J. Holmes, spawned a swarm of Twitter responses both in favor of and against the women’s behavior. Fox, an Obama supporter and apparent liberal, and Wright, a “conservative Black chick,” dueled over women’s issues and candidates. From the beginning of the panel discussion, they seemed on edge, prepared for battle. Subsequently, Wright took to her blog to declare that there was a “War on Conservative Black Chick.” But, the real question is, why did the debate have to get so heated?

The two women sat on either side of popular comedian Tony Roberts, who seemed out of place, but also came off as liberal. Holmes began by asking about Romney’s “binders full of women” comments during the second presidential debate this election season. Fox, speaking loudly, explained her point of view. Immediately, Wright jumped in and caricatured Fox’s demeanor and gestures to antagonize the actress. Queue the battle. The rest of the “discussion” featured Fox and Wright in proverbial toe to toe over women’s issues in the election, of all things.

Interestingly, the exchange between the two women was of the “anything you can do, I do better” nature. Wright would say something and the audience would coo. Fox would say something and they’d cheer in retort. The two women would volley passive aggressive commentary and body language at one another while the audience looked on in wonderment. Intermittently, Roberts would chime in with something witty just to stoke the flames between the women. And, Holmes did little to moderate the conversation.

What was most disturbing about the interview was that a seemingly professional debate about politics turned into a one on one battle between two Black women on national television. And, neither Holmes nor Roberts made an effort to allay the jousting match. In a way, the Black men on stage seemed to feed off of the negative energy the two women emoted. And what was all the clashing about? Women’s rights and how women are perceived in the workplace…

Why can’t we all just get along? Neither Fox nor Wright put their best foot forward. And, I don’t think either presidential candidate would endorse the exchange. Yet, each woman came away, chest poked out, head held high, and armor shined, like they’d just been awarded the Olympic gold medal in Fencing. In truth, negative perceptions of Black women are only reinforced by these types of exchanges. And, whatever victory either woman may have felt she won was undermined by the manner in which each woman displayed herself on the set.

Politics is often seen as a man’s sport. And, this is not the first time it has become heated. But, I think it is imperative to understand that Fox and Wright’s choices were in poor taste. Should women, especially Black women, educate themselves on the issues? Yes. Should we be concerned about policies and candidates whose election might hurt or harm us? Yes. But, should we find intelligible and cogent avenues through which to express them? Most certainly. Let’s use this example as a “what not to do.” And look to fine examples like Joy Reid of the Grio…

Karen Finney, former DNC Communications Chair and MSNBC contributor, even while being talked over…

Goldie Taylor, MSNBC and CNN contributor, versus two Republican men…

This is not to say that commentators aren’t allowed to make mistakes or misspeak. On the contrary, they often become more emotional when certain subjects arise. And, this is because they have passion for the topic. Take the ever distinguished Melissa Harris-Perry of the Melissa Harris-Perry Show on MSNBC…

But, what is different in these two cases, the case of Harris-Perry and Fox and Wright, is that the former was never an ad hominem attack on those with her on stage. Harris-Perry became animated because of her deep care for the plight of poor American citizens living in New Orleans. But, her passion was not directed at or instigated by a personal qualm with her guests. In the case of the latter, Fox and Wright, the two clearly couldn’t stay on topic long enough to hash out any real political discussion. They were so distracted by one another that neither of them looked like a relevant political resource for Black women.

Most importantly, because of the stigma associated with Black womanhood and personality judgments, we are often tagged as angry, confrontational, or rude. And, being so underrepresented in political discourse does not help to generate a complex view of Black women’s political issues. Examples like this do not help assuage those misnomers. If anything, they are used to refute the notion that Black women are willing or capable to engage in legitimate civil discourse. Let’s hope that, next time, Fox and Wright remember their responsibility as prominent voices in the Black community. And, let’s pray that the number of good examples of poised, eloquent Black women in political commentating outweigh the examples these two women portrayed.

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iHeartLove 804 pts

Maybe these two women have something personal against each other? This seems like more than just politics.

MadamCJCPA 1125 pts

The fiasco of these two women paired with the idiotic open letter to Zoe Saldana (about her role in the movie about Nina Simone) just reiterates the stereotype that black women are angry about EVERYTHING (to the point that we cannot even get along with one another) and will protest ANYTHING even if it means cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 MadamCJCPA I agree but I am not sure I would put this in the same bucket as the Zoe Saldana thing. I read this and the qualm seems to have valid points.

 

http://www.ninasimone.com/2012/10/an-open-letter-to-anyone-who-cares-about-nina-simone/

 

Is there another open letter?

Maxine 1005 pts

 JennMJack  MadamCJCPA I actually agree with the gripes over casting Zoe Saldana as Nina Simone.  Even though they're both black women, Nina's particularly dark complexion and West African features are an essential component of her story and her art.   Anyone see the photos online of Zoe in the role?  She looks ridiculous wearing blackface and prosthetic features. 

Joyce345 1738 pts

 Maxine  JennMJack  MadamCJCPA 

Agree. It's not just the complexion issue, there are so many other wrong things with the project.

MadamCJCPA 1125 pts

 JennMJack Nope, that is the letter I read and I stand by what I said.  The whole debacle is an asinine mess.

 

I can read between the lines, and the heart of the matter is that Zoe isn't good enough (i.e. black enough).

JennMJack 1180 pts

 MadamCJCPA One thing to note though, the letter was written by a white male and much of his letter deals with the content of the film as opposed to Zoe's complexion. So, it doesn't exactly commute with the post. But, I see your point that colorism may be at play in the issues people have with the film.

 

I just don't think I would put this in the same category as the Fox and Wright issue. Zoe is clearly not similar in shape or complexion to Simone nor does the writer of the film seem to have support from Simone's family. So, there are some more complex issues there than what Fox and Wright displayed on BET.

Patricia Kayden 1673 pts

How is Wright a "prominent" voice in the Black community?  Apart from writing a blog, where she cusses out Democrats and liberals and Black folks who aren't conservative and disparages President Obama, what contributions has she made to civilized political discourse?

 

I saw her on Joy Behar's show and she was a joke.  But I LOVED the way Joy handled her -- laugh in her face, respond to her nonsense and kept it moving. 

Maxine 1005 pts

 Patricia Kayden I'd never heard of her until this.  Now she'll get some blog traffic from Vivica attacking her.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 Patricia Kayden She is frequently on Fox News. Many liberal news orgs don't acknowledge her but conservative ones definitely do. I don't think she positively contributes but she contributes nonetheless.

DWB 7425 pts

 JennMJack  Patricia Kayden "I don't think she positively contributes..."

 

Can't defeat her arguments, huh?

 

Oh how I LOVE those special few who are strong enough to buck the majority and stand up for what they believe in!

JennMJack 1180 pts

 DWB  Patricia Kayden I have no idea how, from what I said, you assumed that I couldn't or was even interested in defeating her "arguments." I've not seen her successfully and factually form an argument to date. I am all for standing up for what you believe in. But, as seen in this example, she also, like Vivica, had little substance to provide with regards to the issues.

 

It isn't a personal thing. It isn't about her as a person. It is about the content of her ideas. I don't think the content of her arguments is original, unique, value-added, or substantial. But, she is a prominent voice in conservative circles so some may disagree.

DWB 7425 pts

 Patricia Kayden Joy Behar? That cow?

 

She couldn't think her way out of a paper bag....

 

The thing I like most about women like Wright is that she doesn't cower in the corner like so many others and kiss Vivica's butt.

 

Liberals are so used to weak conservatives that cower in fear at the slightest criticism. Then a STRONG black woman like Wright comes along and they don't know what to do.

 

I LOVE IT!!!!!

JennMJack 1180 pts

 DWB  Patricia Kayden There are so many things about this comment that exactly depict what my post is saying. Why are we calling Behar a cow? And basically saying she is stupid because we disagree with what she says or does? And, then, attacking liberals? Whats the point?

LionMama 293 pts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd5FCrZzQK4

 

Posted by DeepWater.

 

Vivica Fox hates everyone who doesn't think like her.

Brice Cameron 2067 pts

 LionMama 

 

Vivica Fox:

 

"Most politicians when you support them you try to support them with class."

 

Then she goes into a catty act and fails to see the hypocrisy.

 

 

NewMaya3 357 pts

 LionMama

 Vivica Fox is an Ignoramus.

ForeverSerenity 339 pts

I like Vivica, and I'm not going to use this one against her. We all have our moments, especially when it's for what we strongly believe in.  They both made an error in judgement. Who knows if there weren't other issues in the past with both ladies?  As women we get the double edged sword, as black women it's one of those pocket knives that cuts us in every direction. NO matter what we do, it's blown way out of proportion!  Especially since we're loud and proud! And by loud doesn't mean screaming loud, I just simply mean we have our "voices" and we use them!

NewMaya3 357 pts

Vivica is ghetto and ill informed and that is why she acted like a Bufoon.  She created drama simply cause she did not know what to say or do.   I saw her on Bill Maher's show with Amy Holmes (another black conservative chick) years ago and she acted a fool.   I was disappointed with Goldie.  She sounded like a drunk sailor.  This Joy Reid is a great role model for young black girls.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 NewMaya3

 I disagree about Goldie. She was talked over and ignored for the entire show but never stooped to their level. This is the bonus session at the end of the show and she is still composed. She is definitely a role model as well.

MixedUpInVegas 1650 pts

It isn't the least bit surprizing that a political discussion devolves into a shriek-fest.  It happens all the time, which is why I avoid political discussions with ANYONE, even my husband (he's a Republican; I am a Democrat.  We cancel out each other's votes at every election.)  I was called for jury duty earlier this month and two total strangers who happened to be seated next to each other in the jury lounge nearly broke into fisticuffs over what started as a casual political exchange.  People approach politics with the zeal of evangelists and are equally annoying.

 

As to the unkind tones between Fox and Wright: Never overlook the obvious--maybe they just plain don't like each other.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 MixedUpInVegas

 Good point. I just think that Black women have a natural tendency to dislike one another. Light-skinned versus dark-skinned, short versus tall, thick versus skinny, long hair versus short hair, naturals versus weave wearers, etc. It is just ridic. I know this is a woman thing not just a Black woman thing but it looks even sillier on a stage like this.

NewMaya3 357 pts

 JennMJack  MixedUpInVegas

 I am dark skinned and I like that conservative chick as well as Amy Holmes.  Everything is not about skin color :)

JennMJack 1180 pts

 NewMaya3  You missed the point. I wasn't saying that this argument was about color. I was saying that there are some instances where Black women compete over certain characteristics (like height, weight, hair, jewelry, etc.) and skin tone is one of them. This is not about your preferences. It is a known fact that colorism is a major issue in many communities not just the Black community.

 

I am not sure why these two women were going at it. But, I think it made ALL Black women look silly.

 
heyimPearlilikefries 2091 pts

 JennMJack  MixedUpInVegas  I certainty don't think that it is natural for black women to behave this way. This behavior is learned. Just like when two babies are playing with each other, the last thing on their mind is them being different. Most people naturally focus on similarities until something different is learned. Black women having this mindset is learned. Hopefully we can unlearn it.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 astringofpearls  MixedUpInVegas

 Agreed. It is learned. Maybe natural wasn't the appropriate word there. Black women are socialized to dislike one another.

SisterRainbow 208 pts

 JennMJack  astringofpearls  MixedUpInVegas If Black women don't get past this nonsense, we are doomed. People will always use this against us. Others love it when we go there, because it feeds their need to project negative behavior onto us. Unfortunately, many if not most non Black women don't see this pathetic behavior as a stereotype.

But, forgetting about them for a moment. If Black women do not stop riding these differences, we will never be able to solve anything worthy. Diversity (height, weight, skin color, hair texture, facial features, racial mix, education, financial status, where you live, popularity. etc.) is the experience of many if not most people on earth. But, what if one day Black women could all become the same? Would that solve the problem? No, it wouldn't because our mindset is screwed up. Many of us would find something else to pick at and tear down.

Yes, Black women are socialized to dislike one another, because it keeps Black people as a whole off balance. Racists habitually remind people of this dislike, and some Black women stoke the flames, but ignore their part in the overall consequence of perpetuating stereotypes. As for Black men, many of them don't see this as detrimental and/or don't care. Many are more concerned with being popular than telling the truth, because that would implicate them in some ways. Being anti Black women makes people feel more comfortable with Black men. They are not going to give this up, even if they have to step on their own mothers.

To be clear, the ball is in our court. We have been thrown under the bus so many times, we know that depending upon others is largely a mistake. Much of the time, it backfires, as some of us have seen or experienced. Now, if we can stop perpetuating this stereotype by participating in it, that would be huge progress. Many Black women do get along without any issues. But...we all know that the media is not going to talk about that, unless there is something in it for them.

iHeartLove 804 pts

 MixedUpInVegas "As to the unkind tones between Fox and Wright: Never overlook the obvious--maybe they just plain don't like each other."

 

I agree. Could be as simple as that.

Law Wanxi 5788 pts

It's a telling and sad commentary on race in the USA when two Black women having an oddly animated discussion about the election causes many to resort to citing stereotype as a form of explanation. If it were two White women, say Ann Coulter and [pick one from a list] who went at it, few if any would find it all that unusual or feel the need to dissect ethnicity. I doubt that a similar discussion by Michelle Malkin [eeewww] and say, IDK, Lisa Ling [because I needed a name, I guess] would be noticed at all, even if someone were to see it. I see these things on Azteca and Telemundo and nothing is said about it. 

 

But two Black women do the same thing and the crap hits the fan so hard, a new fan needs to be purchased. 

DWB 7425 pts

 Law Wanxi I agree that its very telling, but what does it tell? Conservative Latinas get called "coconuts" (brown on outside, white on the inside) and conservative Asians "bananas." Both groups of women are highly stereotyped. Care to elaborate?

 

PS: Leave that cutie Michelle Malkin alone. *shakes fist* :-)

JennMJack 1180 pts

 Law WanxiTrue. And I almost didn't want to write the post for that reason alone. Its like a double edged sword. You're put in a box because of your race so you attempt to prove that you're different by behaving "appropriately." But the truth is, character judgements like these shouldn't form the basis of anyone's behavior. Good sense should. And, neither of these women showed good sense. They acted foolishly.

 

It is unfortunate. But it is the truth. Some say perception is everything. And, the more I see images like these, the more I agree.

 
Brice Cameron 2067 pts

 JennMJack  

 

You didn't take it there.  TJ Holmes took it there.  Once the women started getting animated, he changed the subject to them being angry black women.  Then it wasn't about these two individuals, it was somehow a reflection on all black women.

NewMaya3 357 pts

 Brice Cameron  JennMJack

 TJ Holmes tried to play them.  I would have switched the subject just like a politician.

ForeverSerenity 339 pts

 Law Wanxi You got it right! This is what these two women forgot. One of them should have given in.  But none wanted to do it. They're both wrong. I hope they both look back at this and make a change. In fact, I follow Vivica on Twitter, I'll RT it and tell her to read it!  ( she prob won't but it's worth a try!) 

heyimPearlilikefries 2091 pts

What the hell does BET think their doing with a night show talking about politics? LOL 

 

*No class at all* .. Honesty her behavior doesn't surprise me.. it's not like she's Kerry Washington or Gabrielle Union. 

 

SisterRainbow 208 pts

I changed my mind about something. It is fine for men to host a show with Black women on the panel. I see that T.J. Holmes tried to stop the argument to no avail. Hopefully, after that Holmes set ground rules before the show starts. Yeah, heated debates will happen. But, at least the panel should stay on the topic and stop the pettiness.

SirLoinDeBeef 2496 pts

There has been an undercurrent in American public debate, that it should be conducted calmly, rationally and without heat - never happen! - Americans love mud-slinging, outrageous lies, dirty politics exposed and scandal in their politics - why should TV interviews be any different?

JennMJack 1180 pts

 SirLoinDeBeef I agree that sensationalist journalism is the name of the game now. But, that is not what this post is about. I am specifically commenting on the way these two women portrayed themselves on a station that, supposedly, represents Black people. Two Black women behaving like children is just immature and childish. Whether people enjoy it or not, it is an embarrassment. Thanks for the comments:)

SisterRainbow 208 pts

Thank you Jenn. This is a well-needed article on a topic that Black women must address as we move forward in defining ourselves in a manner that is respectable to us and other Black women. This may not be easy to do, especially for the verbal battle amateur, but it is best not to allow ourselves to be pulled into a belittling session while convincing ourselves that we are just defending our position. That is not how it looks to anyone else, no matter what we thought we were doing.

So many things bother me about what happened between Vivica and Crystal. Including the fact that their egos were at the foundation of it. Both women are attractive, popular in their fields, and sadly in need of acceptance, even if they had to cat fight to get it. They are a microcosm of the larger picture of Black women nationwide who chose to verbally malign each other just to keep their so-called competitive edge. I'm probably over simplifying it, because this problem is multilayered and deserves to be taken apart and analyzed by several of us.

 I thought that Crystal, being a columnist, would have handled herself better than Vivica, a celebrity. But, we do realize that the viewing audience (in the studio and everywhere else) simply sees two Black women arguing like idiots, while trying to get cheer points from a studio of possibly equally mindless people. Then, there is the issue of the men "refereeing" the whole thing. Again, as with other articles on this site about Black women, there seems to be no time at which it is acceptable for others to be at the helm of refereeing anything with regard to our benefit as Black women. We need to control our images and words, and decrease the illusions that follow us around like a choke hold. We also need to correct (or teach) each other, though not harshly, when we can clearly see one or more of us crashing and burning all over the place.

I truly hope that both women have reviewed the recording of their behavior and of the woman who had the opposing views. As Black women, we are not going to think alike, since that is humanly impossible. And who would want to? I like diversity in thought and behavior. Different minds can sometimes tackle a problem better. But, this fiasco did not need to happen. Both women have enough experience in the public eye, and Vivica is older, even more experienced, and should know better. But, alas those fact don't matter when women are competing with each other and fanning the flames off of their busted up egos when the other disagrees with them, or is coming from a different angle. Who made up that lie that we have to agree with each other on everything or all hell breaks loose? The videos above prove that we can have poise even when we disagree or worse, our comments are being manipulated or the other person is being dismissive. Hmmm, well we're not born with this ability, but it should be cultivated. Yes, this is an example of what not to do. Good lessons!  :-)

Jamila 7215 pts moderator

I liked what Crystal was saying about her experience in corporate America, but once again, Vivica was making faces and throwing her hands up to distract people. 

 

TJ Holmes needs to do better. 

Jamila 7215 pts moderator

I just watched the video. Vivica behaved terribly. As soon as Vivica spoke she stared the conversation off down the wrong path. 

 

Crystal Wright was intentionally spewing misinformation.

 

It was just bad. 

Maxine 1005 pts

They both stunk but I think Vivica was more the guilty party.  Even though she's an Obama supporter, I don't know what experience she has as a public support and proxy for the campaign.  Kerry Washington and Aisha Tyler have appeared on Real Time with Bill Maher and his old show Politically Incorrect, and have been able to be passionate yet knowledgeable and non-stereotypical.  Vivica just treated this like a spat between private individuals at a house party where everyone had a little too much to drink.  TJ Holmes, frankly, was out of his element.  I'll cut him some slack since he's new to the talk show hosting gig, but he really needs to learn how to moderate better.  Because this is the only show of its kind right now (late night political talk show geared towards blacks), I'm afraid he's setting a dangerous precedent of bw on bw cage fights.  

SisterRainbow 208 pts

 Maxine T.J. Holmes could not handle this debate. Hopefully, he made a mental note not to have Vivica back again, at least when Crystal is on. Fox is quite immature, or at least she was there.

JennMJack 1180 pts

 SisterRainbow  Maxine I agree. Vivica was way over the top. But, that doesn't rationalize Crystal's petty antics. They just looked like two school children. Thanks for the comments:)

 

Maxine 1005 pts

 SisterRainbow The way Vivica acted, very few people will want her on their show.  Unless they want to feed the black woman stereotype.

LionMama 293 pts

 Maxine Well I thought Kerry Washington was a bit anoying when she was on Bill Maher the last time.. I normaly like that woman but this time.. meeeeh..

NewMaya3 357 pts

 Maxine

 I like Don Lemon much more than TJ.

ASwirlGirl 3031 pts

 NewMaya3  Maxine I love Don Lemon! Glad he stayed and TJ left.