Jamila: “Why I *heart* Sallie Krawcheck and Marissa Mayer”

 Jamila I agree with this. Its all the difference between female admins and executives. One just wants to fill in the hours so that they can go home and the other is at home. 

 tracyreneejones  Jamila I will fully admit that I'm in the "just filling hours" category LOL!  Once I became pregnant with our first, I took myself off the fast track my boss had laid out before me, in favor of a administrative position with more flexibility, less stress and less hours.  I don't regret that decision at all. 

 The Working Home Keeper  Jamila And that's cool, I just began to realize not every woman wants to 'rule the world' though stay at home Mom wasn't an option for my first. It would be for future children. I came, I saw, I conquered....now I'm over it. I would be a stay at home/work from home Mom if I had to parent again. (note use of the word..had too parent...) 

 Neecy "Women who stay home and raise kids are JUST as ambitious and deal with high stress..."

 I have to disagree. Raising her own kids doesn't make a woman ambitious. 

Raising kids is NOT an easy task. Ask any hands on parent who actually deals with them and raises them and develops them. Yes you need to be ambitious to be a stay at home mother and raise, develop and give your kids the amunition to be and to grow up as productive individuals in society.

When you are out working 10-12 hours a day in a job, you are not providing AS MUCH AS YOU COULD of  that for your kids because you are balancing a career AND kids. So just b/c you acquired a skill and have chosen to sacrifice a more hands on approach to raising your children doesn't make you any more ambitious or a superwoman (in my eyes) than a woman that has DECIDED she'd prefer to throw more of her skill and ambition into raising her children an giving them a more hands on rearing.

 Neecy "Raising kids is NOT an easy task."

I didn't say it was easy, but it's not as if one has to apply for a special license in order to be a parent. Anyone is allowed to do it; and people only stop you from doing it (i.e., taking your kids) if you do something terribly egregious. To me, comparing rearing of your own kids with doing Marissa Mayer's job is the equivalent of thinking that graduating from Big State U that accepts everyone who applies is the equivalent of graduating from Harvard. When it comes to degree of selectivity, there really is no comparison. 

Yes, childrearing is hard, but it is definitely not selective and does not qualify one as ambitious. 

 Jamila Ok I see where you are coming from. I still disagree. and I guess I just don't see the big deal with the Melissa Mayers of the world being revered for chosing a career and motherhood. *shrugs*

Now if we want to revere them for their skills in their jobs thats another thing. 

It seems some women do enjoy more recognition for making it in demanding careers but also want to get revered for being mothers too. i don;t see why or what makes them any more special. The fact is one of those things (the career or the kids) is going to have to take a back seat to the other in some ways.

 Neecy "When you are out working 10-12 hours a day in a job, you are not providing AS MUCH AS YOU COULD of  that for your kids because you are balancing a career AND kids."

I have to disagree with this statement for two reasons. One, in the case of parents who have no choice to work, bringing home $$$ is as much as they can do. Love does not buy food, shelter and schoolbooks.

Secondly, I know a lot of kids (now adults) who were raised by stay-at-home moms, and many of them are behind the curve when it comes to emotional independence and taking care of their basic needs by themselves because they are so used to mommy swooping in any time they have a problem. I don't think that quantity of hours at home = better childcare. A neat as a pin house, pie and holiday decorations does not a better mommy make. 

My mom was a working mom who would have preferred to be a stay-at-home mom had she had a choice. But she inadvertently taught me a lot of lessons that served me well in my adult life, such as how to work hard at a job, and how to manage my time and how to be self-sufficient. I don't think I would have absorbed those messages the same from my father. Seeing a female role model working makes a big difference. Although I sometimes wished my mom was a bit more "June Cleaver", I have way too many friends who had housewife moms that were bitter and angry and treated them badly behind the nice facade. Often it was because they were stuck in bad marriages with no financial way out because the had abandoned their careers for kids.

I don't think one is better than the other, or that one is more revered than the other in the long run, but they are revered for different things. A stay-at-home mom is automatically assumed to be more "nurturing" even if she is actually a crappy mom. And a working woman is assumed to be more "ambitious", even if she sucks at her job. Both are important roles, but they are not the same things.

@Sunshine789 @Neecy ,i totally agree with you sometimes mother's have a self flagelating need to be needed .a lot of times the kids do not need or want all the extra attention ,it so that they feel their lives have meanings. Even as a child i did not want June cleaver i actually wished my mother was more ambitious .

 Neecy "It seems some women do enjoy more recognition for making it in demanding careers but also want to get revered for being mothers too."

I haven't seen that. But I have seen plenty of women who stay home with their kids and taking care of their households speak as if they are running multi-million dollar organizations. And on one hand I can see why these women do--everyone wants to think that what they doing with their lives is important and valuable. On the other hand, it sounds like overcompensation to compare the job housemanager with being a CEO. 

 Jamila  Neecy Rolls eyes...

 uninterracial "A cubicle or corner office could never give you the same satisfaction as your child,..."

Why not? Why is it impossible to think that a woman could receive more pleasure from her career than from taking care of her kids?

A woman nurtures a baby in her body for months..but it takes years of eduction and experience to be considered qualified to do certain jobs. Getting pregnant and having a baby is easy in comparison. This is not to say that having a career should be more enjoyable than having a baby, but I am saying that not all women are so romantic and/or refuse to idealize the caregiving role. 

 Jamila Getting pregnant and having a baby is not easy for some. Some women die from it. Apples and oranges if you ask me.

 uninterracial Some people die from their careers. Ask coal miners. 

Tit-for-tat today, I see.

Well, people shouldn’t become coal miners; just like some people should really consider whether or not they really want to have children.

 uninterracial "Well, people shouldn’t become coal miners..."

It's a dirty job, but SOMEBODY has to do it...

 Jamila Okay, whatever. No sense going back and forth about it.

@Jamila @uninterracial bless you jamila the idea that having children will always make you happy is a lie,and the fact that getting pregnant or having children is difficult for a few women makes it somehow magical for everyone is false advertising to say the least.

 inori  Jamila  uninterracial Huh? Was that slam towards my comment? If it is, bless your heart.

 Jamila  uninterracial Agreed! I might want kids someday, and I am sure I will get satisfaction from it, but it will not be a replacement for my career by a long shot. I find spending more than a few hours with a young child to be mind-numbing, personally. I have considered adopting an older kid just to skip that baby-phase, lol! Somewhat joking....

 Sunshine789  Jamila When I was in my 20's, I had the exact same mindset. I didn't want to deal with the birth and baby phase, but if your HUSBAND (that word had barely been mentioned, only the Working Home Keeper referenced hers thus far) wants his own children you are pretty much out of luck.

Let's not forget about the men in this also. The first woman said her 1st husband stepped out on her (hmmm, wonder why?) and she went out and "got" a second husband. I don't know many women who have the ability to just get a husband to fit into whatever they want their life to be, but god bless her. I predict that this Mayer woman and her hubby are divorced within 5 years. He is handsome VC and she is a workaholic, and now they have a baby- recipe for disaster. Kids can be a heavy burden on any relationship, and when money isn't an issue, something else most definitely will be. But that's when porn and hookers come in I guess.

uninterracialSunshine789

So, first you say this: "People are individual, so are their decisions. There is no one size fit all solution to this."

Then you show your true colors by saying this: " I predict that this Mayer woman and her hubby are divorced within 5 years. "

Which one is it: Is every woman different and capable of discerning her own needs, or is it just career women who can't maintain a marriage?

[This post has been edited to be less snarky.]

Jamila

“Which one is it: Is every woman different and capable of discerning her own needs, or is it just career women who can't maintain a marriage?”

Look, this is my last response regarding this subject because I’m getting irritated . I really don’t like you at all so let this just be it and let us go our separate ways.

This was just my personal opinion since I live relatively close to the bay area and this topic was actually covered right after she gave birth. Some other thing were discussed about their relationship and that’s all there is to it; it ain’t that deep. Career women are certainly capable of maintaining a marriage if you find the right balance. I don’t see how a workaholic can do it. It’s just not going to work IMO.

Now, I’m unfollowing  this conversation. I don’t need a young, childless, and I guess jobless woman (since you are too broke to get dates or whatever) coming at me over and over again with this dribble; damn, do what you want to do. If you want to stay home and raise kids, FINE; if you want to parent by proxy, FINE TOO. But I’m done.

 uninterracial "A cubicle or corner office could never give you the same satisfaction as your child"

I should hope not!  I would also say that there is no attempt to compare the satisfaction gained from being a mother and from working when is doing both.  To even try to compare the two is what leads to all of the angst and drama around it.

Raising a child and nurturing a career are different activities and probably highlight different aspects of who an individual woman believes she is.  You didn't say this, but I think the problem is that women are made to feel like if they love one and dedicate themselves to being good at one, they are neglecting the other by default.

 Statuesque"You didn't say this, but I think the problem is that women are made to feel like if they love one and dedicate themselves to being good at one, they are neglecting the other by default."

You bet I didn't, I would never say such a thing. People are individual, so are their decisions. There is no one size fit all solution to this. I say do what's best for you and your family.

 Blackberry I'm like girl, provide a home first, figure out who stays in it second!

You shoulda *dropped the mic* with that line...lol..

@inori War on Men: Co-sign. Totally, but I will add this. If your (the male collective) masculinity is so fragile that growth on my part (the female collective) would, by default, undermine your manhood......well...then you probably weren't that strong in your indentity in the first place. Maybe you need to work on the war within before you go claiming that my self actualization is somehow about you! *sorry, but that whole war on men drives my blood pressure up*

 inori Amen! I will not feel guilty for outsourcing cooking and housekeeping (if I can afford to) until society changes enough for men to willingly step up to the plate and decide that staying at home could be enjoyable for them as well. There is a reason men haven't used their power over the years to force women into the workplace so that they can stay at home - lol!

 Statuesque Re: soldiers

If a woman is off at war then she has totally outsourced household management and most parenting, just like men have to do when they go off to war. 

 Jamila Actually, that assumption underestimates the dire situation that many soldiers,  male and female, have had to work out in wartime deployment and multiple tours of combat-related duty.  "Outsourcing" in those instances is not about hiring a nanny or personal assistant, but about relying on family (if possible) to resolve it, and often quickly.  My point was not about the military per se, but about the financial aspect of outsourcing that is glossed over.  It is a privileged position to outsource these tasks, not a foregone conclusion or easy choice for folks who can't afford or aren't in a position to easily shift those tasks to someone else.  So in that instance when the financial or familial means may not be easy to come by, the choice is not quite the same.  That was my point.

 Statuesque Whether it's outsourced to family members or outsourced to a nanny/chef/maid,it's still being outsourced. 

"It is a privileged position to outsource these tasks, not a foregone conclusion or easy choice for folks who can't afford or aren't in a position to easily shift those tasks to someone else."

I don't think the military is a good example. After all, when men and women join the military they have to understand that deployment is a real possibility and I know that they are encouraged to plan for that possibility. You can't join the military and not understand that if you are deployed someone else will have to look after your kids. And if you are uncomfortable with someone else looking after your kids (or you don't have someone lined-up who agrees to look after your kids in the case of a deployment), then you don't join the military. 

Joining the military is a much of a choice as having a high-powered career. 

 Jamila Yes, and every person who "chooses" or has to work to support themselves is also responsible.  Again, my point is not about whether some people with professions are less entitled to sympathy or that some people do not have to take responsibility for their choices, only that there are not easy choices for many mothers, especially financially, and finances matter here.  The moniker "outsourcing" describes nothing if not a financial arrangement between two parties.

Even mothers who appear to have it made financially make difficult choices every day in order to be the best parents they can be.  I don't believe in the holier-than-thou approach to motherhood.

 Statuesque "The moniker "outsourcing" describes nothing if not a financial arrangement between two parties."

Oh, I'm sure that military parents who leave their children to be taken care of by family have also made financial arrangements with the caregivers.

Doing something out of the kindness of your heart (taking care of your grandkids when the parents aren't around) doesn't preclude one from asking to receive financial remuneration of some kind, even if it's just money that will be used to take care of the kids.

I don't know any military parents who left their kids with family and didn't also set up some kind of allotment for their kids' caregivers. 

 Jamila  Statuesque I didn't join the military because I kept asking about my daughter's accommodations. When I was told I had to sign her over to someone else...no dice. Was it right or wrong? I don't know, but it felt right. 

We all have decisions to make and must accommodate the people we bring into it. Survival is not one size fits all. 

 Jamila Lol but that's not the point either...though it would be an interesting topic of discussion (what caregivers feel like when they are "outsourced" to).  When women in the military are mothers, they have tough choices to make.  Wartime deployment places special burdens on military families. The situation now is also somewhat unprecedented in that the consequences of these wars are different in that regard, and the military has had to contend with issues it was not necessarily prepared to deal with.  I know personally many female soldiers who did what they had to do, without the support I believe they should have had, and that's where my perspective comes from, and that is another example of what women who are working mothers have to balance and figure out.