Let’s Talk About ‘Shaming’ Poor, Single Black Mothers, Shall We?

 MySmile So true!  If a man already has children that he is not supporting, that should be enough to give you pause before putting yourself in a situation where you could become pregnant as well!  If a child wasn't enough to make him commit to the first woman, it's not going to be enough to make him commit to you.  

 MySmile I was having a discussion with one of my male coworkers about this.  When it comes to dating, I have two deal breakers: 1.  You have not spent time in jail/prison, 2.  No baby mamas.  If he was married and got divorced, that's one thing; but if there was no commitment, no.  It wouldn't bode well for me.  My coworker went into the cycle of "What if".  "What if" what?  If i see a man with baby mommas, that shows immaturity to me, especially if it's several.  Even if he is doing what he suppose to be doing and shows the maturity not to have unprotected sex, in other words, he has only one; his focus should be on his kid, like the mother.  

 MySmile 

That's what I wish women would pay attention to. If this fool has 4 kids by multiple women, does not take care of them - why the hell would you put yourself in the situation to be impregnated by him?!  It's sad that it's the norm for so many that it's just accepted as okay.

I don't know when the news originally came out, but there was this black guy looking for relief of his child support payments for 30 - THIRTY - kids! I was so disgusted...

Maybe we should just start sterilizing these "men" for starters? But to teach them how to be fathers, I don't even know where you would begin.

 BlackCherry , I agree--NWNW is best applied as a PROACTIVE; you shouldn't be thinking about marriage after you find yourself pregnant. And if the man is a DBR, you and your child are really better off without them. There's also no law saying you can't be a single mother who marries a great man after the fact *points to Chris* 

The idea is that you think about all of this BEFOREHAND. NWNW is about those who have not fallen into the OOW trap first and foremost. So naturally, we would hope that these young women would be looking at marriage with persons whom they are at least "equally yoked" with. For my own part, I could not imagine settling for "potential" and financial instability.

My parents married young and they had NOTHING. Even though it was hard and even though they are more in love now than when they were married, they both stress to me, "DO NOT DO WHAT WE DID AND MARRY BROKE! MAKE SURE YOU TWO CAN SUPPORT YOURSELVES AND ANY KIDS! DO NOT GET WITH SOME BROKE *BLEEP*, I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD HE LOOKS, IF HE'S OFFERING NOTHING TELL HIM TO KEEP STEPPING! YOU DESERVE THE BEST!!!"

...Yeah, that's legit their response they go into CAPS LOCK "excitable parent mode" whenever that subject comes up. O_o

But anyway, this is definitely preventive thinking like what you said.

 R. Kamaria You know, i agree with that a little. Kandi Burress was saying that about the father of her child. She said she knew they wouldn't be together in the long run but she never imagined he wouldn't want to participate in raising their child. 

 nieshasdavis  R. Kamaria 

My question would be why was she comfortable having a child with a man when she KNEW the relationship wouldn't last?

Her instincts were trying to tell her something, and she ignored it. Unlike men, nature insures (through a strong hormonal cocktail) that almost all women have an  immediate strong bond with their babies. Of course this is barring any strong interference via drugs, alcohol, or personal disorders/illnesses, etc.

Men in general don't have that cocktail going for them. Many times their interest, feelings and investment in their children (especially during the early infant to toddler stages) is almost directly tied in to the feelings, interest and investment towards the mother of their child.

 tracyreneejones Tracy, I WISH YOU WOULD WRITE! Seriously, what you said is 1000% valid and if we are going to affect any change, we have to do more that turn our noses up and say "glad it ain't me!" Everything you just said should be a post. Trust, many of us really DO want to DO SOMETHING POSITIVE.

 tracyreneejones This really stuck out to me: 

"surely you must realize it is just as hard for 'them' to think themselves 'worthy' as you to think yourself 'worthless' enough to accept what these women (me/she/us/her/them) must believe ourselves to be in order to find ourselves in these situations."

The thing of it is....the women here are NOT a monolith. Some are speaking from experience in terms of single motherhood. Or observation. Or even people not standing OOW-rates because it's not something they see, but certainly don't support.

The voices opposing this situation come from DIFFERENT places. Not everyone is residing in an ivory tower with no concept of the reality of this situation: For many of us, this is all too real.

But I do agree that there needs to be a positive approach and solution to this problem. The thing of it is, how do you reach women who don't believe there is anything wrong with their situation (or if they do, are encouraged to deny it for the sake of being a "strong black woman"?) 

Truth be told, for me NWNW is about the persons who have not fallen into the cycle yet. Realistically the pathology can only continue its cycle if it is passed on. Stop the pathology from taking root in the young, and stop the cycle. 

I never understood this idea that NWNW first and foremost focused on single mothers. I would say the unconditional acceptance of absent fathers is of greater concern to me than the existence of single mothers. Why? Would single motherhood as a result of OOW births be as great a concern if black fathers of these children were responsible for their offspring? (Within or outside the bounds of marriage? That's actually an interesting topic: Would OOW births be of great concern if fathers cared for and supported their children? I do think that the overlooking of and normalizing their absence really is the key to the pathology).

Then, looking at the experiences of struggling single mothers as a deterrent: if you don't want that for yourself, you avoid making the same mistakes. As seen on these posts, the single mothers stating over and over that this is something that they DO NOT WANT for their children. That is an admission of love, and recognizing that this is highly abnormal and must stop.

But....how?

Like you said, there definitely needs to be a more positive approach. Perhaps self-esteem building articles? Examples of the benefits of avoiding OOW all together? And for those who have been caught up, examples of how it is still possible to pass on expectations of non-pathological behaviors to their kids? Because clearly not all single black mothers accept the cycle. And they break it. It's just a matter of harnessing that resolution and channeling it towards black girls and women who need it.

 Toni_M  tracyreneejones You are right, Toni. NWNW is focused on women and boys who have not yet had children. The goal is prevention through education and empowerment. I'm not trying to focus on the mothers and fathers who are thoroughly embroiled in the pathology and see nothing wrong. It's not that I don't care--I do. But young people are more mailable and open. They have yet to be saddled with the challenges of single parenthood. We simply must focus on reaching those people. 

 Toni_M  tracyreneejones Thanks Toni, as a single mom that has been married and now divorced, this topic is very important to me, I have a daughter I am raising and I want her to realize that she doesnt need to go down certain roads, and that she needs to be empowered. This is a serious post/subject that needs to be revisited often.

 tracyreneejones This isn't just about life in the 'hood. I grew up in the rural South, and this post mirrors the lives of many of my cousins. It's an epidemic in the black community, period, no matter where you live. Unfortunately it's become a vicious cycle. I'm only a couple of degrees removed from having that type of life, no thanks to the fact that my extended family basically made it known that I would never amount to anything. They never told me that to my face, but they told anyone else that would listen. Although I moved away, there are still some that perpetuate the rumors that I must have children here in Boston that I'm hiding because there could be no other possible reason that I would stay here.

I don't look down on young girls and women who have children OOW, because, as I said, that could easily be me. What I do to try to break the cycle is talk to my niece who's now 14, to let her know that although she and all her sisters were born OOW, that's not the way that she has to live her life. I'm trying to help her see her worth, and I'm also working on reaching out to young women in inner-city Boston to let them know that the circumstances of your birth don't have to dictate who you are.

 grrlysquirrel75  tracyreneejones "What I do to try to break the cycle is talk to my niece who's now 14, to let her know that although she and all her sisters were born OOW, that's not the way that she has to live her life."

Breaking the cycle is so key.  I was born OOW to a 17 year old, unwed teen mom.  I was a "mistake" (the actual word used to describe my existence).  My birth mother gave me up for adoption because she felt it would be in my best interest to be raised in a two-parent home (I was adopted within the family).  I didn't grow up in the ghetto.  I grew up in the rural South.  Some of the girls I went to high school with, my cousins included, started having babies in the 9th grade.  I could have easily fallen into that path, especially considering the low self-esteem I had at that time.  But, I was shown that even though that's how I came into this world, that didn't have to be my destiny.  That there was another way.     

 The Working Home Keeper Wow. I'm glad you chose the right path Mary!! (I read your blog, by the way.)  :)

 Lady M Thanks Lady M!

 tracyreneejones 

Nah uh Tracy.  You have been here long enough and have contributed content on this site and should know us better than this.

I for one will not be guilted into silence on this issue because of advantages received and or earned.  Not all of us were born with the ability to grab the brass ring. Some of us dug ourselves out of pits to be able to grab it and struggle to hold on to it. 

The stakes are too high to sit silent.

We tell our stories here. 

We read your stories here.

We learn and we connect.

The only ones who can tell the story and explain the why are the women who live it.  Sit silent and someone else tells it for you. Someone who may not get it right.

Want the disconnect to close?

Then the story must meet the eyeballs willing to read it. This is the safe place. The place you can do it. The place you who have first hand knowledge can connect with those who do not.

For all those reading this thread and feeling some kind of way about it. Understand what I said above. Take it to heart.

Communication goes both ways.

The floor is yours.

 Brenda55  Indeed I was not making a blanket statement about anyone here. I am a beleiver in critisism and tree shaking. What I am saying is that I see room for more reality, so that some of these young BW/BM seeking articles on the site don't feel so ostrisized. I guess I mean I need to write more. I am hesitant to write because my Pandora's Box is bigger than anything anyone expects. Or at least I think so. Then also, you must understand that the more I discuss me, the more apparent it becomes to me the levels of which society/parents/adults/the safety net has failed me and others like me. If you think its hard to witness these women's lives and the lives of their children, imagine being one of them? Or formally one of them.....or...you get the idea.

 tracyreneejones 

" Indeed I was not making a blanket statement about anyone here."

I am relieved to read this.

"What I am saying is that I see room for more reality, so that some of these young BW/BM seeking articles on the site don't feel so ostrisized."

I agree with this.

"I guess I mean I need to write more."

Hope you do we need more of what you have to offer.

"I am hesitant to write because my Pandora's Box is bigger than anything anyone expects. Or at least I think so."

Don't make it about your Pandora's Box. Third person works also.  Do what is comfortable for you in the way it is comfortable for you. That can include not taking comments re. what you post. 

"Then also, you must understand that the more I discuss me, the more apparent it becomes to me the levels of which society/parents/adults/the safety net has failed me and others like me."

Again do not go places where you cannot.  I understand. I think we all do. More than you can imagine. Stories, especially painful one have to unfold in their own time and in their own way.  This may not be the venue so never go where you cannot. 

For example your post today helped. It told some of us that there is another part of the story and to not be so quick to think we have all of the answers. 

" If you think its hard to witness these women's lives and the lives of their children, imagine being one of them? Or formally one of them.....or...you get the idea."

I do get it. It is hard because in a lot of cases the women in question are people we love and don't know how to help. As you know imagining is not the same as being but sometimes it is the best one can do and I hope you understand that.

Thanks for coming back to talk more.  It would have been tragic if you took the tall building option. 

Thank  you tracy for your comment. I too was born OOW to a single (crack-addicted) mother and then given up for adoption. I traveled the straight and narrow -- went to college, followed by law school, fell inlove, fell for the promises of marriage, had sex and wound up pregnant. I decided that I would keep my child and ever since that decision I feel like somewhat of an outcast on some of these BW empowerment blogs. My then boyfriend (White, ivy-league-educated) decided that he didnt want a family with me and has left me to face this pregnancy all alone. Were there warning signs? no. Did this happen because I consider myself unworthy?absolutely not. Did I somehow fall into the same trap of my biological mother -- presumming that the man who claimed that he loved and cared for me really meant it? absolutely. But at the end of the day I dont regret keeping my baby and I certainly hate some of the shaming, and "better than" (due to marital status or lack of dependents) post that tend to occur on some of these, including this, website.

 tracyreneejones I really do hope you come back and speak.

First of all, I cannot speak for anyone else. But, as someone who comes from an extremely dysfunctional, toxic family (not necessarily from the hood, but nevertheless toxic), I JUST learned to love myself a few years ago, and I'm in my mid-thirties. My family did not teach me this because their idea of love is rather narcissistic. So, I had to take it upon myself to learn. I am STILL learning to love myself, day by day, minute by minute, hour by hour. Being single and not having a child doesn't mean the person has it all together, either. I have not gotten pregnant and having children as an unmarried person not necessarily because I had all the self-love in the world (I didn't) but because I realized that to do so would put me in an even worse predicament. I still didn't make the best relationship choices and I got VERY LUCKY, I'll admit, because my bad relationship choices could have put me in a coffin. I just knew when to get out and run! But, still I'm learning and growing. 

I see nothing but LOVE for single black mothers and black women overall on this site. Because, frankly, in the media on the street there is no love for black women.

I'm not a self-righteous conservative, single-mother-basher by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think having children out of wedlock is the worst evil in the world. In fact, I am a liberal, left-leaning feminist when it comes to people's sexual choices and sexual identity. BUT, on THIS issue, when it comes to black women's bodies and the future of black women, given what is happening to us, I take a rather conservative stance when it comes to how we bring kids into the world because I see how it is destroying is.

So, perhaps, what is in order on this site are some serious posts on self-love. Because, to me, that is where we need to start. I know there are [rightfully] a lot of conversations about bm not always doing what they are supposed to do. But, I know and I'm certain the founders of this site know, that it really isn't about the race of the person you date or marry. It's not about "white men are better" or "black men are evil". NWNW by itself is empty rhetoric, no disrespect, if we don't teach our black girls and women to love themselves and what self-love actually entails. When you truly love yourself you will not take less than what you are worth from a man of ANY race. And, trust me, this is a DAILY lesson for me, even as a so-called "self-empowered" woman.

 Cocuya I too just began to love myself in my 30's and I'm currently 33 now. People make choices based on how they identify or feel about themselves and I know most of these women simply do not feel they are worth more than what they receive...and it doesn't help that everybody and their momma have made it a point to push down black women. We get it from so many corners.

 ShunJack   Low self esteem plays a big part in this. People don't make the best choices when they don't feel good about themselves. This could have easily been any of us. Many women struggle(d) with low self esteem. I have and still am. I am not far removed from this, as members of my immediate and extended family are single mothers. It seems like at least 75% of the black women I know are single mothers. Of course, I have never experienced what it's like first hand, so I can only speak from observation.

 tracyreneejones

 Tracy, my dear sister, thank you for your words.  You certainly gave me a different perspective on the entire matter.  I grieve with you for your losses in childhood and young adult hood; I stand with you in seeking a better, happier and more fulfilling future.  You are a woman of great promise and can speak from a position that many of us have never experienced and cannot really know.

I believe you can add to our collective understanding of this grave matter confronting young black women.  Your insight could help us all to not only understand, but also to formulate better methods to help other young women avoid some of the cancers that are eating away at our communites.  Please continue to share you experiences and observations.  We want to do more than belly ache about the plight of our sisters in the gender; we actually want to actually do something.

 The Working Home Keeper

 " I felt sad for this girl because she's not going to fully experience the joys of motherhood.  She's going to be so burdened because all of the responsibility is going to fall on her shoulders.  Parenting is tough at times for two parents!  I just can't imagine having to go it alone."

Thank you! I think the exact same time sometimes. Motherhood should be joyous but if a woman has no money and no one to depend on for basic security and stability she wont be able to enjoy motherhood the way a woman with support would. She'll be too busy trying to make ends meet, tracking down the babydaddy, feeling bitter and rejected, etc. to enjoy the little things.

@MommyTRex2010 Ohmigod the wanna be rapper thing.....this is a bit off topic, but I thought "Love & Hip Hop" was bad ----- "Love & Hip Hop: Atlanta" is providing the template for these types of delusions. I am usually not one to argue that tv should not portray certain things....but that show is outrageously offensive in its glorification of the wrong choices for BW!

@blackberry- YES! Love and Hip Hop NYC is tame compared to Love and Hip Hop Atlanta. Delusion is not the word and I bristle at watching it. Its so raw but not in the way that makes you think its scary to see people living like that. There is no need.

 MommyTRex2010

 Jesus dont get me started on the hot mess of that show!

 nieshasdavis I agree partially and I also disagree: What if you have never been taught self responsibility? Those of us that are not party to this cycle of pathology or had learned to break it have a different outlook to be sure....but something has to be contributing to this behavior.

The problem with OOWs is that once the child exists, it's no longer about one's self, it's about the child. And in that regard, BOTH parents are now responsible. What is the reason for assuming that black girls and women must shoulder %100 of the blame and responsibility? I suspect it's the "strong black woman" meme, but I don't know. The reaction is certainly very disturbing.

I think your friend is an example of what I was talking about down thread: It's not as simple as someone "putting a ring on it". You have to try for men that are marriage-worthy. She probably looks at him and sees his "potential". A lot of black women are encouraged to rate race and potential over qualities like financial stability and the change at a higher standard of living. 

It's really sad to me that so many young girls and women sell themselves short and are encouraged to do so. Like I said, it feels like grooming patterns to me.

 Toni_M  I get you on the not knowing self responsibility part but at some point you have to do better. Read a book or something! I don't know how to get people to start taking responsibility. Maybe they should stop blindly believing god will make a way? God also made birth control and all that stuff. I think it really comes down to self love. I wasn't raised in the best of environments and for a long time I put myself in dangerous situations or situations that did nothing for me. It was only once I started to love myself that I decided I didn't need backstabbing friends, that I just wasn't gonna date anyone that told me I was pretty, that I wasn't going to settle for less just because the next person did. In regards to my friend, when she had the first abortion from this dude I told her, perhaps the fact that you don't want a baby by this dude tells you he's not for you? He put a ring on it in KFC( NO LIE!) and then it was all good. She expressed dissapointment in his career choices. IN NYC he's one of those dudes that sells his music on the street. She said she wanted to stay with him, "if he makes it". Well what if he doesn't. Cause trust, he's NOT!  That is certainly no way to live your life or go about choosing a mate or a father. We've just got to do better but it seems like no one is really up for the challenge. 

"What is the reason for assuming that black girls and women must shoulder %100 of the blame and responsibility?"

We live in a country in which birth control is readily available and if birth control fails then a woman has the option of terminating a pregnancy. The only women in this country who have kids are pretty much women who made the choice to have children--they don't need a man's permission to get an abortion.

But sadly I think many of these girls/women have been stuck on stupid for so long that they just don't know how to make good decisions, they don't even know what a good decision would look like, they don't know anything about how to vet men, and they're surrounded by folks telling them that 'God doesn't put more on your plate than you can handle.'

The black community has failed many of their daughters.

 pioneervalleywoman When you read that article you can see everything that is wrong with these sort of situations in one place. A quote from the piece:

"Abortion crossed her mind, but her boyfriend, an African-American student from Arkansas, said they should start a family. They agreed that marriage should wait until they could afford a big reception and a long gown."

How many poor white women fall for that story? How many poor black girls?

Too many poor people--black and white--have fallen into the delusion that marriage is all about having a big wedding and a party afterwards.

@Jamila Yes, indeed. Here is the thing, drawing upon my old school perspective; starting a family should not be happening "by accident" or chance. It comes down to deliberate discussions and negotiations between partners who are married. So she got pregnant by accident, the boyfriend says don't have an abortion, let's start a family. But did he go into the relationship thinking about having a family? Was he planning for the possibility if she became pregnant by accident? Or did he just say that to keep himself attached to her? Perhaps she was thinking about the possibility, and I don't mean trapping him here. Did she even think, what if my birth control failed, would I want to have this man's baby? And as for waiting until they can afford it, that is so bogus; so many partners, I have read, create problems for themselves believing that marriage should be a big affair full of expense that they can't afford. Heck, the husband and I were able to afford a big wedding when we got married, but we didn't want one. We had a small one which was within our budget, which meant we did not begin our marriage with the financial stress of having to pay off an expensive ceremony.

 pioneervalleywoman  Jamila 

"Did she even think, what if my birth control failed, would I want to have this man's baby?"

My parents use to tell us growing up that any man we slept with could be the potential father of our child. So we had better make sure not only was the person serious about us and the rlsp, but we were going to marry them.

I remember reading or hearing a story about a couple. The woman had had a hysterectomy or her tubes tied (can't remember which) and her partner got a vasectomy. Close to a year later, they find out they're having a baby.

I brought that up just to point out that nature/biology is can be a powerful force. Birth control is great, but human beings body agenda with regards to procreation can get in the way.

That's why it is very important for women to take their time to vet and observe any man they choose to be sexual with.

 NijaG  pioneervalleywoman  Jamila My grandmother used to say that, I didn't know what she meant till I got older but I'm glad that came back to me as a young adult. I was married previously and I remember never feeling quite safe enough with my ex to ever think about having a baby with him. I don't know where that came from but I thank God, that although we were married there was something about him that made me uneasy. I know that's odd to think in a marriage but a good part of the marriage he was emotionally abusing me I just didn't realize what it was. So I just used my diabetes as an excuse to never discuss having a baby, he didn't seem to mind. I'm always so glad I never had a baby with him, nothing about that relationship ever felt totally secure. Although we're divorced, I'm remarried to a wonderful husband I am planning on trying to have a child with, I'll always remember that instinctual feeling of being unsafe with him so I never wanted to bring a child into that. I feel so good about my marriage and my relationship with my now hubby, I can't wait to make him a father. But I had to first feel secure before the thought of doing that ever occurred. 

 Jamila  pioneervalleywoman I totally agree...this is so backwards....My sister's looked at me cross-eyed when I stated that I'm over having a big wedding...If I get married again, I just want my siblings, parents, kids, best friend, and close aunt in attendance....I don't care for a huge wedding...

 ShunJack  Jamila  pioneervalleywoman

 Shunjack, I agree.  If you want the big one, then wait for 20 years and renew the vows, and invite anyony you want at that time.  That's what me and my wife did at 16 years.

@ShunJack @Jamila @pioneervalleywoman I've has two weddings both small, the thing that mattered to me most in my wedding to my current hubby is that I just got to be his wife. I took that money that would have been wasted feeding & giving ppl free liquor and went on a fabulous honeymoon.

 ShunJack  Jamila  pioneervalleywoman Picture it.  Two friends.  One has a big-a$$ wedding (in which I was one of ten bridesmaids) and reception; total cost: $50K.  The other has a very tiny wedding (just me and the hubs) at San Francisco City Hall (gorgeous rotunda, BTW; total cost: $1,000 (plane tickets, rental car, 10-day honeymoon along the coast of Cali and trip to Reno, accommodations; being in the military: priceless and cheap!).  Who was divorced after three years of marriage and had, as part of the divorce settlement, to split the remaining cost of the wedding and who is still married after 19 years?  Yep.  Hubs and I are planning a very elegant renewal next year.