News Bites: Recent Census Data Reveals, Once and For All, 1+1=2. Marriage Can Make You Rich!

 tracyreneejones .........I think you just got to the heart of this entire matter and it was like a much needed slap in the face.

Why the heck are women even having to argue about this. We cannot pretend that single mothers are all widows or due to a divorce ALL the men opted to have nothing to do with their kids. A lot of men divorce but still fight very hard to be part of their children's lives.

So we're left with the reality that these issues arise because a lot of the times the men involved won't take care of their kids. Isn't it creepy how we're arguing back and forth about single motherhood and it hardly ever boils down to IF MEN TOOK CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN, IT WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE.

I mean...would it? Would it really?

 Toni_M I hate it...I hate it and I hate it some more....Why the fug its such a distasteful thing for men to raise their children is beyond me. Actually, no its not. These are sniveling insecure Momma boy pinched pannies girly men who really can't deal with adulthood and/or hate themselves so much they can't stand to see their own reproduction! I won't beat a single mother down, because I have no idea WHO SHE is, but I do know she didn't magically get pregnant. I know black, white, asian and indian men that have abandoned their families. It's acceptable in America and I think it has to do with hatred of females and our American snafu regarding sexuality and sexual practices. I said too much because this ties in with my Mammy article..dammit!! 

 tracyreneejones Can I get an Amen?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mao08lnEOr1rrpsd7.gif

 Brenda55 You are fun-knee!!

 tracyreneejones No one is talking to the men because they aren't there to hear it.  We get tons of comments from single mothers on this issue, but what man is going to come here and comment that he left his kids?  He was enough of a coward to do it in the first place, he isn't going to have the balls to come to an anonymous or public forum and state his case, is he?

The mothers get talked to because the mothers are there.  They are the ones taking their kids to school, they are ones picking up the kids from daycare, they are the ones applying for public assistance. 

Trust me I agree with you 100%, but I can't control men that don't take care of their kids, I can only control the types of men I choose to associate with.  How often do we see women knowingly associating with, dating, hooking up with men that have kids?  women "sharing" men?  I'm not about putting the blame on women but let's face it, if women collectively said "nope" some of these dudes would have to get their act together.

I agree that this is a good discussion to have.  I fall in the lack of economic opportunity camp as a reason for the decline and not values.

 Brenda55 

Semi-appropriate vid: http://youtu.be/I8P80A8vy9I

OT, but this vid is a lot like a Chinese first date, LOL.

 Avoc42883 

Frankly it is exhausting!

 Joyce345 seriously! this is not about gay parents, this is not about that single mother you know who makes 300k, this is not about your hippie parents that never married.  This is about kids growing up in poverty and dysfunction.  This is about family planning.  This is about making responsible choices.  This is about making wise choices in partners so that even if things don't work out you have a responsible co-parent.

 Avoc42883  Joyce345 

What you're describing is the near-obligatory 'exception-finding' dialogue that seems to kick in here after about 20 comments. One of the contributors with a big "L" or "N" as her avatar described it better in a comment a couple of weeks ago. Some weak minds feel an anecdotal case or two explodes any statement of a general nature about a large population's general tendencies. 

It would have shown up earlier in this thread but The Deleted One's appearance slowed it down in traffic, so to speak. Then it arrived, honking it's loud horn, to carry the automotive metaphor forward. It's like graffiti in LA; just part of the charm of the place. 

 Avoc42883 What annoys me most is the assumption that we are advocating that marriage is a cure all to poverty or that we are endorsing women to just get married to anyone. It seems to me that people who say this don't really understand what a marriage is. I don't understand why people are so against encouraging healthy relationships for Black women that can lead to marriage. 

 keimiasmoon exactly.  Which is why this more about responsibly choices than it is about marriage.  Marrying someone who isn't a good partner, is abusive or irresponsible isn't a responsible choice.  No one is telling you to run out and marry the first man or woman you can get your hands on.

 Avoc42883  keimiasmoon Agree with you both.  It seems quite clear to me that its about making responsible choices and not just marrying anyone for the sake of being married.

 TheZitaZitomihr 

Majority of the problems the government is trying to fix with more money and more programs originate in fatherlesness.

 Joyce345 Exactly. And I know they are trying to help, but all it does is encourage more fatherlessness. 

 TheZitaZitomihr  Joyce345 I feel the problem is that we (the general we) aren't doing enough to prevent the problem. We need to be talking to young girls, young women, (and young men) and telling them to stay in school or learn a trade, use contraceptives and to seek out responsible partners by making themselves responsible and therefore desirable to responsible partners.  This problem needs to be headed off at the pass.  We need to try to have this conversation as much as possible before the out of wedlock birth has occurred.

This conversation constantly gets twisted into be about vilifying single mothers when its actually about advocating young people make responsible choices for themselves and their future children.

 Avoc42883  TheZitaZitomihr  Joyce345

You are so right, Avoc!  It is our duty to our daughters, especially, to teach them how an adult woman controls her fertility and cares for her body and sexual health.  A woman will only want to exercise her fertility a few limited times in her life.  The rest of the time, she will want to control it so that she can go about the other business of citizenship--education, career-building, saving money for the future and so on. Since that is so, why not show her how to accomplish that and facilitate her doing so as soon as it is practical?

A woman who is pregnant all the time is always going to be in a dependent position--risky business in today's society.

 TheZitaZitomihr NWNW is a movement of it's own. If you turn it into conservatives (republicans) vs. liberals (democrats), it takes away from the universality of the message by pigeonholing it within the platform of political party. Do that and you immediately lose a whole segment of the population, probably the part of the population that most needs to hear and live the NWNW message.

Just my opinion.

 iHeartLove 

That's not where I was getting at but, thanks.

Was talking about the census and this quote right here.. ------> "I’m sure the bastions of liberal, militant feminism will organize a protest against the Census for suggesting women should go back to being shackled to stoves, barefoot and pregnant."

 TheZitaZitomihr "Why would a single parent home have more money?"

Because some unmarried men or women heads of households make more money than households with dual incomes.  One-third of female single parent households in poverty is definitely bad, but it is conceivable that the top third has enough or even plenty of money to burn.

That's why to me it's important to separate the correlations of marriage and any statements of causality about positive outcomes.  That's also not what the Census Bureau is saying.  They are looking at the strong correlation and asking a very important question, but it's quite evident that some single parent households out-earn dual income households.

 Statuesque Well of course some single parent households may make a lot more money than some dual parent homes but in general dual parent households. The single parent out-earning dual parent households may be due to a certain career that the parent may have. But in general two parent homes would make more money. 

 TheZitaZitomihr Well, earned income of an individual is always due to their ability to receive compensation for their labor, whether through employment or having a business. So many factors go into household wealth and its causes that I'm not willing to make a categorical statement about it beyond that.

Another trend is that women are starting to out-earn men in marriages. Men in the same careers as women still make more money, but what will happen when women are a majority of the overall labor force?  What would the economic picture be for a divorced single mother who was the breadwinner?  It's another important question that could be asked. Whether this offsets a marriage advantage, has no impact or a negative impact remains to be seen.

Dual income households have more earning potential, of course, because there's another person there to contribute.  And it's probably true that there are more dual income households (I'm not sure, haven't seen the numbers) in general.

 Statuesque 

"Dual income households have more earning potential, of course, because there's another person there to contribute.  And it's probably true that there are more dual income households (I'm not sure, haven't seen the numbers) in general."

That's all I'm sayin.'  Either if the man is the breadwinner or the woman, it's still the same thing. Dual households in general make more money. 

About the divorced mother's being the breadwinner... how would that work if she's single?

 TheZitaZitomihr "About the divorced mother's being the breadwinner... how would that work if she's single?"

I'm not sure I understand your question so let me know if I am not addressing it correctly.  If the woman in a marriage was the breadwinner, the man who earned less financially could receive spousal support and a portion of her wealth if they divorced.  My point was that if another trend is that women outearn their husbands (and the divorce rate doesn't decrease), there could be more single female parents of sufficient financial means than there are now.  So ONE factor that is important to communicate as well is the importance of getting a good education, because it has been a strong driver of income gains.  It helps in a marriage and it helps individuals on their own.

 Statuesque Oh okay.. that's why I think so many women want men who earn more than them... even if they already earn so much, so they wold still be able to get spousal support. 

"So ONE factor that is important to communicate as well is the importance of getting a good education, because it has been a strong driver of income gains.  It helps in a marriage and it helps individuals on their own."

This is very true and it's even what Evia (BFIM) say's all the time. Two people with good careers or businesses that make good amount of money will make more than just one single parent with a career. It could work both ways. Some single parents could be surgeons making 6 figures making more than a 2 parent household that makes 6 figures and 5 or 4 figures. 

 Statuesque But MOST of the time single mothers aren't doing that well. 

 Statuesque  TheZitaZitomihr Perhaps I should keep still, but, again, I see a disconnect - that is:

I do see women taking over many of the jobs requiring a degree from a liberal arts college - but many of these are 'fluff' jobs.

Where are the overwhelming numbers of women getting and keeping jobs as engineers, technologists, and vocational specialists (plumbers, electricians, building contractors, cement-pouring experts, crane operators, sanitation experts, bulldozer operators, etc. - yes, there are women in every occupation I've noted ... but only a trickle - yet it is these jobs that keep the residence, town, city and nation operating/innovating.

Remove 100 women from managerial posts in, say, communicative arts or journalism and perhaps an issue of 'Clutch' might be late - remove 100 of the folks noted above, and the city water stops, the trash piles up and that water-main break just goes on spouting thousands of gallons of water per minute ... until you can find the women needed to operate the back-hoe ... find the appropriate valve that controls the water flow ... and the ones that know how to mate new pipe to old ... on and on.

Just sayin'.

 SirLoinDeBeef  Statuesque  TheZitaZitomihr It depends what careers you are looking at. Remove 100 women from a hospital staff and you've lost the majority of your nurses, registered and otherwise, respiratory therapist, technicians and general support staff and there you go no ER in operation. Remove 100 women from any school up through high school and our kids have no teachers. Women have do have practical jobs that pay decently AND are necessary for society to function.

Also just sayin'

 Statuesque  

"One-third of female single parent households in poverty is definitely bad, but it is conceivable that the top third has enough or even plenty of money to burn."

That seems pretty far fetched.  I am sure there are some single parent households who have money too burn, but I would be shocked if i wasn't much less than a third of them.  Do you have any data to suggest otherwise?

"That's why to me it's important to separate the correlations of marriage and any statements of causality about positive outcomes."

Why?  It seems to me that marriage is a large contributor to financial success, especially if there are children involved.  All of the data points to this conclusion.  Why deny the obvious?

 Statuesque 

*far-fetched

*money to burn

 Brice Cameron 

"That seems pretty far fetched.  I am sure there are some single parent households who have money too burn, but I would be shocked if i wasn't much less than a third of them.  Do you have any data to suggest otherwise?"

What is far-fetched about it?  If a third of households are below poverty and two thirds are above poverty it is reasonable to deduce that many in the TOP third are fine or well-off financially. It depends on where the income lines are drawn.  Given the redistribution of wealth to the top it seems to me that there is a reasonable position to take that there may be less money in the 2/3s and more in the 1/3 than ever before.

And nope, I don't have any data to suggest it.  But I did question the logic of saying that no single parent households out earn dual income households. 

"Why?  It seems to me that marriage is a large contributor to financial success, especially if there are children involved.  All of the data points to this conclusion.  Why deny the obvious?"

As evidenced by the high divorce rate, whereby many women have or can slide into poverty or down the economic ladder WITH their children (because they also tend to retain custody), simply getting married isn't going to fix the problem.  I am not "denying the obvious," just considering other factors that are significant.  Correlation isn't causation.

Blanket endorsement of marriage without paying as much attention to the factors that sustain a GOOD marriage, or that can stave off the negative effects of divorce for children are just as important to take a look at in a world where many people appear to lack the desire, skills or ability to get and stay married.  Not factoring in the impact of female education or income earning potential seems also seems questionable to me given other social trends as striking as the OOW stat.

 Statuesque 

"What is far-fetched about it? "  The average income of a single parent family is about half that of a dual parent family.  The top third of the country isn't well off financially.  There is no way the top third of a group that averages half of others  income is well off financially.

Here is some good data, which I think is just pulled off of the census:

http://www.legalmomentum.org/our-work/women-and-poverty/resources--publications/single-mother-poverty-2010.pdf

Some highlights:

 Poverty is widespread and severe in single mother families. According to the recently released Census Bureau data on poverty in 2010, people in single mother families had a poverty rate of 42.2% and an extreme poverty rate of 21.6%.  Poverty means an income less than the official poverty standard,$14,570 for a family of two in 2010.  Extreme poverty means an income less than half the poverty standard.  Poverty rates are much higher for single mother families than for other households. The 42.2% poverty rate for people in single mother families was almost three times the 15.1% rate for the population as a whole, and was more than four times the 10.1% rate for people in married couple families. The 42.2% single mother rate was also much higher than the 25.6% poverty rate for people in single father families.  Over half of family poverty is single mother poverty. In 2010, there were 14.2 million poor people in single mother families, 11.2 million in married couple families, and 2.3 million in single father families.Poverty rates are higher for single mothers who are women of color. In 2010, the poverty rate was 50.3% for Hispanic single mothers, 47.1% for Black single mothers, and 32.7% for non-Hispanic White single mothers. Three fifths of poor single mothers were Black or Hispanic.  Over half (52%) of poor single mothers were employed in 2010 and 14% were employed full time all year. A majority of those who were jobless the entire year had at least one child below age 6.

"But I did question the logic of saying that no single parent households out earn dual income households."

Then you questioned the logic of something that was never stated.

"As evidenced by the high divorce rate, whereby many women have or can slide into poverty or down the economic ladder WITH their children (because they also tend to retain custody), simply getting married isn't going to fix the problem."

Divorced parents are single parents.

"Correlation isn't causation"

No, but it gives you a pretty good idea where to look.

 Statuesque  Brice Cameron I don't think anyone is just giving a blanket endorsement of marriage. When we talk about marriage we talk about all those things that go into a good marriage. 

 Brice Cameron "The average income of a single parent family is about half that of a dual parent family.  The top third of the country isn't well off financially.  There is no way the top third of a group that averages half of others  income is well off financially."

I wasn't speaking about the top third of the country, but how the actual income distributes WITHIN the population of single mothers.  The statistic of ~42% of single mothers below the poverty line does not shed any light on income distribution in the ~58%.  What is interesting and certainly can be witnessed by many people anecdotally is that being a single mother means one is more likely to be poor or struggling.  No one has said otherwise.  

Restating my previous quote in your response: "But I did question the logic of saying that no single parent households out earn dual income households."

You: "Then you questioned the logic of something that was never stated."

Sorry, you really need to go back to the beginning of the discussion here for clarity.  This whole conversation started with a comment by TheZitaZitomihr, which was a QUESTION:

"Why would a single parent home have more money?"

I provided a plausible explanation. That statistic on single mothers in poverty isn't 100% as far as I know.

"Divorced parents are single parents."

Correct.  And many single mothers are that way because they got married, then divorced.  Given the high divorce rate in this country I find it completely rational to state precisely what I did.  Part of the population of single mothers are divorced women, not just never-married women.

Correlation certainly gives one a good place to start, but that's all it is.  A place to look, somewhere to start asking questions.  And the questions are not always going to be ones that people like to have asked.  When I look at the big picture, other considerations are equally if not more important.

 keimiasmoon  Brice Cameron The things that go into a good marriage are, sadly, not implicit in the endorsement of marriage given the current state of affairs.  To me it is very important to bring out explicitly, with Black women especially, because the situation for most is dire for reasons that don't need to be discussed again ad nauseum.

Honestly I am not sure how anyone can responsibly advocate marriage to a group of people who largely seem to be avoiding it or unable to sustain it without an explicit discussion of success factors.  Yes, marriage is a wonderful institution with many benefits....when it works. Just like it isn't enough to say "date a rainbeau, it'll all work out" if the point is educating people who are new to it, it seems like there is room in this discussion for what produces the outcomes people are looking for with marriage as a construct if the point is to empower Black women to make better choices.  

You're comfortable with the implicit message, I'm not.  That's the beauty of differing opinions when discussing these topics.

 Statuesque 

OK, TheZitaZitomihr originally stated, "Why would a single parent home have more money?"  You gave some examples.  She then stated that she was speaking generally, and she was correct.  The statistics show that in general, two parent households are more wealthy and have greater income than single parent households.

Without finding the exact data, it would make sense to assume that single parent households and double parent households have normal distribution curves.  Since single parent households have half the average income of double parent households, they will have a larger number of people below the poverty line and fewer people at higher incomes.  That doesn't mean that there aren't some out there, but they are the exceptions.

Of course there are other factors that contribute to poverty.  That doesn't negate the fact that marriage is an important one.

Let's take education for example of another factor.  People with more education tend to have higher incomes.  Just because you know somebody with a high school education that started work at a widget factory and now he owns that widget factory and is a millionaire, that doesn't mean that education isn't important.

No one is saying get married just to get married no matter who the partner is.  Getting married to the wrong person is worse than not being married.  But getting pregnant by a person that you are not married to is a mistake and is likely to lead to a poor standard of living for you and your child.  It is odd to me that a person who seems as intelligent as you are seems to be advocating it.

Marriage is a good thing.  It is good for children and it is good for the parents.  I don't think that every time someone states that fact, they need to include all of the factors that go in to making a healthy marriage.

 Statuesque 

Sorry that my response seems disjointed.  I keep getting interrupted by work.

 Brice Cameron "No one is saying get married just to get married no matter who the partner is.  Getting married to the wrong person is worse than not being married.  But getting pregnant by a person that you are not married to is a mistake and is likely to lead to a poor standard of living for you and your child.  It is odd to me that a person who seems as intelligent as you are seems to be advocating it."

It is precisely because the repercussions of a bad marriage can be as detrimental to children (domestic violence, emotional abandonment)  as living in a single parent household that I have the perspective I do.  Yet you wouldn't catch me advocating for single parenthood, ignoring all of the factors that complicate the picture, and then attempt to rescue myself by saying "oh well of course I meant if it's a wealthy mom with a great relationship with her ex who lives nearby and helps with the kids.  Duh!  No one is saying that being a poor single mom is awesome" lol

What's interesting is the assumptions you've made about what I am advocating just because I am not hopping on the marriage bandwagon without stating some caveats.  I don't think that says anything about your intelligence, which is clearly high, but it does say something about your willingness to accept a generally supportive yet more nuanced position here.  What has led you to conclude that I am advocating that a woman make choices that lead to a poor standard of living?  All I am stating is an equally hard truth: that marriage has not and cannot save women from negative circumstances.  

 Statuesque 

I don't think we can beat this horse any deader.  I think I understand your position and agree with most of it.  The main thing I took issue with was that you seemed to me to be saying that there were many happy single parents who had plenty of money and were doing just fine raising their children without help.  I don't think there are many of those people out there compared to the many women struggling to make ends meet and also do the difficult job of raising a child alone.

Unless you come from a wealthy family, making a large salary usually involves working a lot of hours.  Choices have to be made between your child and your work.  These things are difficult enough with two parents.  I imagine they would be pretty much impossible with one parent.  The child is going to suffer.

None of this means that a person should stay in a bad or abusive relationship.  But being married to a supportive partner is a worthwhile goal and something that people should strive for if they plan on having children.  Of course, things don't always work out the way people plan and marriages often fail.  But raising a child alone does mean that something went wrong.  Some people have to make it work, but it is not the ideal situation.

 Brice Cameron Then the poor horse died for no reason because I didn't say anything even close to that in ANY post! lol  

Anyway, the exchange was very enlightening.  It can get boring when everyone marches in lock-step.

 Brice Cameron  Statuesque "No one is saying get married just to get married no matter who the partner is.  Getting married to the wrong person is worse than not being married.  But getting pregnant by a person that you are not married to is a mistake and is likely to lead to a poor standard of living for you and your child.  It is odd to me that a person who seems as intelligent as you are seems to be advocating it."

Exactly! I can't understand how anyone could endorse women having children out of wedlock. It's strange that some believe it's ok to be a single mom; however, they take issue w/ the concept of 'marriage,' because marriages don't always work out. LOL

In my opinion, women have to choose mates more wisely and avoid being so quick to have pre-marital sex with men who haven't committed nor have any plans to...