Me and prominent writer and prominent social media feminist, Tami Winfrey Harris had a Twitter exchange regarding her article about Shawty Lo in “Clutch.” It’s worth the read, I think. The primary goal of “No Wedding No Womb” was to start a dialogue, and in so doing, begin to affect change. This is a good start.
-
In case you missed it: My latest on @ClutchMagazine: “Black America is not Shawty Lo” bit.ly/UfMuF3
-
@whattamisaid @ClutchMagazine Hey Tami, I read your piece, and you have to admit, more people disagree. The BC is so broken, the OOW is cray -
@whattamisaid People are TIRED. What is happening NOW is NOT working. I wish prominent people like you would acknowledge that.
-
@whattamisaid @ClutchMagazine That majority of the commenters AGREE that our OOW situation should NOT be the “new normal.”
-
@whattamisaid @ClutchMagazine Why is the pro-OOW agenda being pushed when people clearly disagree and folks are suffering? Why?
-
@whattamisaid You mention Sweden in your piece but you fail to mention that these couples are LIFE partners and raise kids TOGETHER.
-
@whattamisaid Swedish menn who abandon their children are NOT the norm. Why can’t we just be honest? What is there to fear?
-
@whattamisaid I feel like social media feminists are deliberately ignoring the plight of kids in the OOW situations, who suffer the most.
-
@whattamisaid …And all those comments from Clutchettes who AGREE with MY position can not be discounted as “Dr. Laura-esque.”
-
@whattamisaid To dismiss peoples’ concerns about the OOW rate as some sort of rabid conservatism is to deliberately miss the point.
-
@Christelyn it’s odd to here you say article pushes OOW agenda. The point of the article was not endorsement of Shawty Lo’s lifestyle. -
@Christelyn The point of the article is that Shawty Lo and his fam are not representative of blk American families.
-
@whattamisaid I know it wasn’t. but to compare what’s going on in the US to what’s going on in Sweden is a default rubber stamp. No.
-
@whattamisaid I’ve interviewed men from Sweden. It is an outright SHAME to abandon your children. The men DO NOT DO THAT. BM ARE.
-
@whattamisaid he’s an extreme example, but the OOW rate is the norm. Multiple baby moms ARE the norm. It is. C’mon be honest!
-
@whattamisaid You basically say that this is the “new normal” and we should just all get used to it. But it’s destructive.
-
@whattamisaid Tami, take a look at the majority of the comments. They all on the side of the principles of #NWNW. Could it be possible…
-
@whattamisaid …that folks do think what’s going on is viable? Why won’t feminists consider this?
-
@whattamisaid I just think that to defend behaviors that are clearly destructive is not TRULY being concerned with the plight of these peeps
-
@Christelyn I agree that most commenters disagreed with my article. I’m okay with disagreement.
-
@whattamisaid But then, WHY won’t your group take into account these folks opinions? Won’t you just dismiss them as conservative loons?
-
@whattamisaid If feminists, don’t want to advocate marriage, fine! Be a TRUE Swedish model. THOSE men stick around!!
-
@whattamisaid Here are the facts. We have had 40 years doing things as certain way with a negative result. People are sick of it.
-
@Christelyn Again, I can’t speak for all feminists, just myself. Please engage me as an individual. Feminists are not a monolith.
-
@whattamisaid Your side offers no reals solutions to affect change only status quo, but more government money. No talk of personal respons.
-
@whattamisaid Is is safe that your position is pretty much the party line feminist position?
-
@whattamisaid They are not fans of traditional marriage, IMHO. But that’s not the point. Fems will not ACKNOWLEDGE that sys isn’t working.
-
@Christelyn who said feminists don’t advocate marriage? That is not any sort of feminist doctrine?
-
@Christelyn I think in order for us to have a true debate, you need to understand my position. So allow me to clarify.
-
@whattamisaid Even you won’t acknowledge it. You simply say “marriage isn’t the solution.” Fine. It’s not. But what is? More gov’t money?
-
@christelyn I am not against traditional marriage. Most other feminists I know are not either. This is probably good news for my hubby.
-
@christelyn My marriage is one of the best things that I have ever done, But I do realize that my needs are not every woman’s needs.
-
@christelyn I will not demean other women for choices that aren’t mine.
-
@christelyn Traditional families are awesome. I come from a long, line of them. But I know awesome nontraditional families too.
-
@christelyn I won’t demean families that do not look like mine.
-
I love my Daddy more than I can tell you and I grew up w him in my home. But I know a lot of great co-parenting fathers too.
-
@christelyn I also know gay parents. And the idea that they cannot parent is abhorrent to me.
-
@christelyn I don’t want to see young black girls have children unless and until they are ready for them.
-
@christelyn I advocate for equality, education and reproductive healthcare for young women (and men) so they can make responsible choices.
-
@christelyn But I do want young women to plans for their whole lives, not just their reproductive organs.
-
@carolynedgar People all over the world are marrying less. That is changing the fabric of our society. We need to find a way to address it.
-
@whattamisaid OK, so we are thisclose to being of like mind. Where we differ is your acknowledgement that the OOW rate has been destructive.
-
@carolynedgar Simply saying “everybody get married” is not a solution.
-
@whattamisaid I agree. And men need to step up and take responsibility for the kids they create. That doesn’t require marriage. -
@christelyn Whats more, by stigmatizing single, black women you make is harder for women and their children to leave unhealthy situations.
-
@whattamisaid Wht I and others’ frustrations comes from a deafening silence that some will not acknowledge how what’s happning isn’t workin’
-
@whattamisaid ..The argument is always, “Look at Sweden!” Without understanding that while not married, the arrangement is STILL traditional
-
@christelyn By demonizing single, black women, you encourage them to make bad choices, partnering with the wrong people to escape stigma.
-
@whattamisaid But, but ACCEPTING single parenthood, your side RUBBER STAMPS it! You want to coddle and just make it OK. It’s not OK.
-
@christelyn And not all women want to be with men. What about them?
-
@whattamisaid Well, by your side saying everything goes, you green light harmful behaviors. Has your cuddly tactic worked? NO. It hasn’t.
-
@christelyn Also, one point of my article, is that we need to stop pretending that the aberrations the media shows us = average black family
-
@whattamisaid You may think I’m “too hard”, but many think you are too soft. Perhaps there’s a solution somewhere in the middle.
-
@christelyn That so many folks in that comment thread were arguing that blk family = Shawty Lo reveals that our biggest problem ain’t on TV
-
@whattamisaid I’m not talking about women who don’t want to be with men. That’s not part of this convo. that’s not what’s happng w/ the maj.
-
@christelyn I need you to engage what I am actually saying. At no point have I said “anything goes.” I suggested some areas for focus.
-
@whattamisaid Well then, don’t bring up women who don’t want men. They’re not part of THIS conversation.
-
@whattamisaid Tami, Shawty is the extreme, but an 80% OOW is the norm and multiple baby dads is also. You know it and so does e’body else.
-
@christelyn You do understand that ppl can become single parents without having children OOW. So, why stigmatize.
-
@whattamisaid Anyway, my focus isn’t to demonize single moms, but to prevent their offspring from doing the same.
-
@whattamisaid You keep throwing in the kitchen sink, Tami. I’m not talking about the exceptions.
-
@christelyn You were a single mom. Don’t you deserve better than derision? How does shaming help?
-
@christelyn I’m curious: Do you support the efforts of Planned Parenthood to educate and provide low-cost free repro healthcare?
-
@whattamisaid How does shaming help? I don’t know. But personal responsibility did. If I were to have listened to you, I might not have…
-
@whattamisaid Changed my station. That’s what’s lacking from the issue. Personal responsibility.
-
@whattamisaid Knowing that what I did hurt my child was shame enough to not continue the cycle.
-
@christelyn You know I don’t know that blk wmn having multiple children by multiple fathers is the norm. Can you share link to statistic?
-
@whattamisaid Yes. I wholeheartedly support Planned Parenthood.
-
@christelyn See, I don’t think gay women are the kitchen sink. My point is that blk wmn have a variety of needs and we need to be cognizant
-
@whattamisaid Sure I can. 80% of first born children of black women are born OOW.
-
@whattamisaid If they have more, the others are then multiple. I am a mother of children with multiple fathers.
-
@christelyn I also know that the OOW birthrate among black women is decreasing: ht.ly/gswOT
-
@whattamisaid I’m (trying) to focus on single, hetero women for this conversation.
-
@christelyn Actually, I believe the figure is 73 percent of b.lk children born out of wedlock. Can you share a link about multiple fathers?
-
@whattamisaid Overall birthrates have gone down, but the OOW rate is will over 70%. You’ll have to do better than “The Atlantic” lolz
-
@christelyn I agree w personal responsiblity, which is why–again–I advocate for women to have equality, education and healthcare.
-
@whattamisaid Sure. Here’s one from the root: 1 in 5 bw have multiple baby dads theroot.com/buzz/study-1-5-…
-
@christelyn education leads to lower birth rates and poverty increases chances of many kids ht.ly/gswSQ
-
@whattamisaid I can show you more articles about BW with multiple fathers if you like.
-
Thank you. But that’s not most blk wmn RT @christelyn Sure. Here’s one from the root: 1 in 5 bw have multiple baby dads theroot.com/buzz/study-1-5-…
-
The solution to 70% OOW black births? Married black women need to have more babies: (h/t @whattamisaid) ht.ly/gswOT
-
@whattamisaid I agree that education improves outcomes. You’ll get no argument from me there. But that’s not what we’re talking about.
-
@carolynedgar Yes, it appears married women like me who haven’t had kids are the problem.
-
@whattamisaid That’s not true. The majority of BW have multiple baby dads
-
@christelyn I’m sorry, I thought the link you sent said 1 in 5.
-
@whattamisaid Is a majority of multiple daddies the norm? YES. bvblackspin.com/2011/04/05/…
-
@christelyn But I think we SHOULD be talking about education. You want to know how to have fewer OOW births to parents who aren’t ready.
-
@whattamisaid 59 percent of BW. That’s a majority. That’s the latest.
-
@whattamisaid So that means the bc looks more like Shawty Lo than you’d care to acknowledge, I think.
-
No. Only party line is equality for women. RT @christelyn: Is is safe that your position is pretty much the party line feminist position?
-
@whattamisaid My issue is I feel like you want to make the OOW situation OK, and just a “part of life.” It shouldn’t if it’s not working.
-
@whattamisaid Can’t you even ACKNOWLEDGE the the OOW model in the BC is mostly negative?
-
@christelyn From what I can tell, here is where we differ. My goal is to prepare black women (and men) for responsible, fulfilling lives…
-
@christelyn I mentioned a few paths to that place.
-
@christelyn I think focusing on those things will get you the lower rate of OOW births you want. But my concern is healthy families…
-
@christelyn …not necessarily traditional ones. I absolutely do NOT think shaming is productive.
-
@whattamisaid Tami, I think we both mirror much in our advocacy. The only difference is I think the current model needs to shift.
-
@whattamisaid I contend that the majority of the people disagreed with your Clutch piece because they’ve noticed this model is destructive.
-
@christelyn I acknowledge that too many black men and women have children before they are ready and that leads to dysfunction.
-
@christelyn I agree the current model needs to shift. We disagree on the way to shift it.
-
@whattamisaid Shaming=/= public flogging. But fems employ shaming all day long to folks who don’t agree with them.
-
@christelyn You have shared your experience. Let me share mine…
-
@whattamisaid What I have always said with NWNW is I know I don’t have all the answers. This is a collective effort.
-
@whattamisaid That’s why I rallied over 100 people to join NWNW. We all agree there’s a problem, but offer varied solutions.
-
@whattamisaid There is no “one” way, but a comprehensive way.
-
@blackgirlinmain Before I became sexually active as a young woman, I went to PP for birth control….
-
@christelyn I did that not out of shame but because my parents raised me to believe I could do anything. I had grand plans!
-
@christelyn I didn’t want to derail those plans by having a child before I was ready. It wasn’t shame that made me be responsible…
-
@christelyn …it was education, equality, etc..I am married now and decided not to have bio kids, but I am honored to coparent with…
-
@christelyn My husband and the kids’ mom. Like so many, we are a blended family and we are not deficient.
-
@christelyn Okay, still, I don’t know what feminists flog ppl all day long on the internet. There are millions of feminists on earth.
-
@christelyn If some feminists were unkind on this little corner of the internet, that does not = all feminists.
-
@RenPassion @whattamisaid You really want me to name them? I will. I keep a file. LOL
-
@christelyn @renpassion It is never productive to paint a group w a broad brush: nontraditional families or feminists.
-
@christelyn You don’t need to name names for me, but have you ever read the work of black feminists like bell hooks or audre lourde?
-
@christelyn Or womanists like Alice Walker?
-
@whattamisaid @RenPassion All I know is, there’s a LOOONG list of self-proclaimed fems who shamed #NWNW heartily with no correction.
-
@whattamisaid I’ve read Alice Walker, bell hook, no audre lourde.
-
@christelyn Have you spoken with black feminists in real life? The interwebs is not a hot bed of civility…just sayin.
-
@whattamisaid Admittedly, I have not spoken with the fems who openly derided my online in person, no, I haven’t.
-
@christelyn I know that many feminists disagreed w NWNW. I did too. But a lot of ppl disagreed w my Clutch article. Debate is healthy.
-
@christelyn I thought many of the comments on your article that mentioned me were uncharitable, and yet, here we are talking.
-
@RenPassion @whattamisaid This is actually getting to be a good convo. But I’m getting sleepy. I think a Part II is in order tho, no?
-
@christelyn Happy New Year. The best to you and your family.
-
@whattamisaid ha ha, yes. but understand, I am legend for my snark and provocativeness. But you’re right, it wasn’t nice.
-
@whattamisaid Happy New Year, Tami. Maybe we’ll meet in the middle in 2013. I have hope.
I just read her article and I see that she mentioned the "much-maligned" Moynihan report:
"Society has been branding black families dysfunctional since the days of Django Unchained on through Lincoln and — boosted by the much-maligned Moynihan Report — all the way up to today."
The Moynihan report turned out to be correct and what it foretold for the black community is happening now to the white community. The white community's out of wedlock birthrate is now where the black rate was when Moynihan published this report.
- spam
- offensive
- disagree
- off topic
Like