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to Swirl
How to date, mate and relate. Mixing race, culture and creed.
The discussion is now open! Here’s my first question just to get the conversation started. Get out your wine and cheese, cuz this is gonna be good! Why the cuss do you think this book is so groundbreaking? Did black women REALLY need a black man’s permission to swirl?
The discussion is now open!
Here’s my first question just to get the conversation started. Get out your wine and cheese, cuz this is gonna be good!
Why the cuss do you think this book is so groundbreaking? Did black women REALLY need a black man’s permission to swirl?
Maybe on a deeper level, Soul Sistas are reluctant to date/marry outside of the "kinfolk" clan simply cuz they've previously dumped on black dudes for running around with white gals (along with hating her guts for it) and they don't want to risk being rightfully indicted for addtional hypocrisy. (Let's face it, us colored folks as a whole can be some of the most absured self-righteous religiously false card-carrying hypocrties imaginable when it comes to censoring and condeming the "sinful" going-ons of whites and other non-black peoples for stuff we also but blatantly do with arrogant devil-may-care attitudes. (You can tell at times I just can't stand two-faced double-talking hubris!). The "Brothers' permission" complaint could just be a charade to hide this. Just a thought, just a thought. Yah Yah, you all go on and hurl your barrage addle eggs, rocks, and ninja stars at me as much the "spirit" moves yall to do for me stating this.
SurlySammy
Not gonna dump on you for this. Not at all. There is a grain of truth to this for some sistas. However a woman does reserve the right to change her mind now doesn't she?
As we learn more our attitudes change don't they? So lets just say this. After giving the matter further consideration black women are deciding to seek out and chart a new course for themselves that best fits the current situation they find themselves in. A course that enhances their lives and maximizes their well being. Its Ladies first these days and its long over due. Does not really matter how they come to that conclusion so long as they do.
Brenda55
She can do what she likes. It's a free country that will not (at least on theory) slap sanctions on her free will to do so within legal parameters. And Hell, I'll most likely do what I can, If given a ghost of a chance, to support her feelings & efforts in "hitching her wagon to a star". I'm merely propounding a deeper more fundamental reason why Soul Sista ("You go GIRL!") is reluctant to play house and tie dat knot (tight I hope, reeeeally tight - to many damn divorces cropping up all over nowadays) under the chrysanthemum covered wedding arch with "ol Massa" (now I'm being a just being goof with da "Massa" bit, so don't kick!). That's all.
SurlySammy Brenda55 I actually think that is a huge reason why some bw may have the issues with IRR. We are not taught to be two faced and disloyal to bc, bm but ourselved instead. Bw have the key to ththee prison gates but are demanded to hand them or for review. I believe unlocking those gates shouldnt only be allowed if she wasnt a participant in the systematic problems of the bc.
I actually think this is a great thread and appreciate the opening of what seems to be a can of worms to display the small beans they really are.
SurlySammy
In the end this is a meaningless point. Again this is a free country and people have the right to date IR .......or not. It is all good as far as I am concerned. If at the end of the day if non-black men don't work for you cool. If they do follow your heart and go for it. There is nothing to stop you. It is your life and a woman really does not owe anyone n explanation for her preferences. It is that simple. I checked for black and white men. My preference settled on white men so that who I married. This was not a committee decision and the world did not crash into the sun because I married a white man.
One thing I have noticed and I have to say is this. The farthest people are away from an IR couple relationship wise the more of an issue they have with the IR couple. People who know me accept and embrace my choice. It is the people who have nearly no relationship with me who have the greatest problem accepting a me as a black woman with a non black man. I used to find that rather curious but stopped worrying about it because these peoples opinion are in the end meaningless. Some one once told me that your friends don't care and the rest don't matter. That is about how it shakes out for IRRs.
Brenda55
Yep.
Brenda55 SurlySammy I think it isnt easy for women to chose what society says she doesnt have the option or is good enough to have. Some bm talk about ww like they have three tails and then leave his bw and kids seeking validation. Some choose them from preference. Some choose ww and post youtube vids about how terrible, ugly, fat , unworthy and how no one else will want them.
Bw chosing to date IR seems to never be ok. It is felt by bothbw and bm. Paula Patton and her husband choice seems to dictate whether people want to allow her to be black enough. Seal married a blonde Barbie(love them as a couple so not being mean) and he gets no flack. Robin is a few steps away from being a Debarge but Heidi is not. Bm dont have to even.answer to leaving.families and or ridiculing bw on the way out the door skipping to the "massas"(as you call it)house to woo Becky, his sister. When bw and bg are reconditioned to chose love and not dead end streets, the bc will no longer be able to inprison her and usually just her to the dysfunctional and derilect conditions that she is supposed to make the best of.
I also dont know why I keep hearing that only thugs and inmates are causing the problems in the bc. The only ones fathering and leaving. The only ones not willing to marry bw. That bw are attracted to thugs. Donning suits and ties doesnt change statistics or that babies mama he has.
Bw realize, maybe late, that happiness isnt color coded. That she deserves a choice and chance to chose that first....and in some cases...many cases, when she has been through the bc mud.
Bw were conditioned, brainwashed. When released from that, the bc wants to ridicule her because she was a blind believer? People who grow up with bigots as parents and used to be bigotted can't see the light? Even marry if inclined? How is it bm with a poison laced tongue about how unworthy bw are with Jenny backing him up expect a bw to ask permission?
Mocha ZBrenda55SurlySammy To be honest, I think Seal and Heidi get zero flack for the same reason Iman and David Bowie get no flack: NONE of the people involved are American, and both Seal and Iman are African. IRR among African men and women seem to be much more common abroad than in the States. I'm sure there are bigots that not pleased with the concept of these IR couples, but I never saw AAs going out of their way to claim either of those two, if that makes sense.
Mocha ZBrenda55SurlySammy *Sorry Seal is British and part-African, but the point about them not being AA stands. I think it's harder for people to get up in arms about persons of African descent that are non-American. Maybe because persons who are of African descent would question that attempt to claim?
Toni_MBrenda55SurlySammy Right, good point. I see brown as brown but nationality is different which makes us bw in America look more backwards. Bw in any other part of the world do what they want. Culture shapes our attitudes for sure.
There is a girl called Brit pop princess and she is engaged. She is not on there talking about how to snag a rainbeau( her love is a wm) as much as she is talking about life, fashion and her. Hope I see young American black girls so naturally free the same way one day. She is way too cute and carefree!
Toni_MBrenda55SurlySammy oops, left out that she is on youtube, lol.
Mocha ZToni_MBrenda55SurlySammy "...Hope I see young American black girls so naturally free the same way one day. She is way too cute and carefree!"
I know. That would totally rock!
Silly me, I really thought that most people were beyond making a big deal of IRs (in the US one's been free since the late 60s & before that you could marry in other countries.)
That was before I started going to certain websites and reading the crazy comments ppl make(about both AA women and AA men choosing freely.) Sometimes I miss living in Paris where no one seems to give a hoot period. It's so liberating & peaceful.
ForestElfQueenMocha ZToni_MBrenda55SurlySammy I say stay away from roaming the internet too much. I get the feeling there's a lot of ppl on it, no matter where they live that aren't getting the mental health care they need. Especially those that are consumed with other ppl's choices.
Mocha ZBrenda55SurlySammy I don't think it is more taboo for a woman to marry out than a man.
I just think that due to their aggressive nature, men will marry out and then ask forgiveness later.
Women have a more relational and cooperative nature, so they will ask permission before marrying out.
Joyce345Mocha ZBrenda55
We men are simply adventurous by nature, bottom line - due to evolution of masculine experiences I suppose. So of course a lot of us are going to step over traditional boundaries and dividing lines- anytime, anyplace, anywhere and let the chips fall where they may, doggoneit! For a stout example, how do you think Rome grew to be a formidable Empire from starting out as some peewee villiage along the Tiber?
Joyce345Mocha ZBrenda55
Bored housewives and lonely virgins seeking wayout wondrous fun? Hardly. Like who was going to nurse the babies and care for the children too young to draw unemployment checks, aside from doing the cooking, cleaning, and basket weaving? Dudes' mammary glands and, by and large, patience weren't that developed for such domestic duties as they still aren't. It's all a part of the survival and preservation of the group thing.
Joyce345Mocha ZBrenda55
Which on the contraire leads me to assert that it has become for the most part universally considered more socially unaccepatable or practically taboo for women to "marry out", of which she'll naturally feel it a breach of good manners to do without securing mums and dadums "Ok baby, you do what's best for you." Yeah, I know, shucks, this item can be complicted to argue for now that we're steeped into the Modern World that has blasted open doors to powder and dust, historically shut against women lock, stock, and barrel
SurlySammyMocha ZBrenda55 I agree with Mocha Z. She says that black women have the keys in their hands only that they are demanded to hand them in for review.
I do think there are one or two things women can learn from men and this is one of them.
It is better to ask forgiveness than ask permission. Seek YOUR own individual happiness first.
Most of the people that bw sacrifice themselves for WILL NEVER return the favor.
eugeniamitchell
Ha ha, yeah good point. Well the way I see it, the Laughing Academies are neither numerous nor physically large enough to house all of those those interesting (yet potentially annoying) members of the lunatic fringe needing a lil TLC from already overloaded mental healthcare specialist and mind mechanics. So the Internet naturally is in a defenceless spot to be imposed upon and take up the slack. Poor Internet, poor poor Internet. OH how I feel for it.
Mocha ZBrenda55SurlySammy this is why I never gave two sheets about black men and what they think i should do or date. I have no qualms in setting anyone blackman or black women straight that think they can tell me who i should date, love and marry.
Evia and other BWE ladies have written on this subject long before Mr. Banks came along. These women are the ones who should be interviewed. However, sometimes it takes a man to bring a point home.
ann4950
"These women are the ones who should be interviewed. " *nodding emphatically*
It's not that I don't think men (especially black men in this case) have room in this discourse, but I think on this topic especially, the focus should be on the black women. Lol I remember when I heard about this book, I immediately I started looking around for books written by the BWE ladies!
I guess I can understand how his book would make it "okay" for some people now? But I still don't that idea that a lot of women need a black man's validation to do what might be best for them...
JazzFestann4950
We do live in a patriarchal world where ANYTHING sounds more serious and believable when it is coming from a man.
JazzFest
whoops :S
but I still don't *like the* idea...
Sorry!
Yes, some weak minded Black women probably do need Black men's permission to date/mate non-Black men. Sad but true. I cannot count the number of times I've read about BW in IRR stating that they hesitated because they worried about what the "Black community" would think of their non-Black mate. Read the following article, for example.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/weddings/on-love-i-fell-in-love-with-her-talking-to-her-over-the-phone/2011/10/01/gIQA3h7jTL_story.html
You know what I also get out of the story in "The Washington Post"? Here is a black woman that by her own admission,, was very uncomfortable with the whole premise of IR dating. And so even after she had been dating the guy for six months, when something relatively small happened that she didn't like, she breaks up with him. It reminded me of the whole saga around Black Queen Bee's friend. These women are already uneasy about dating out and so when any minor issue pops up, they seize upon that small thing as an excuse to break it off., almost as if they're relieved to have their fears about dating a white man validated - now they can go back to an existence they're more comfortable with. It's like, "Uh, okay, there's my out".
Am I the only one that is inferring this, or do some of you sense that same pattern?
All I can say about the woman in The Washington Post story is thank god her mother had some sense!
And, BTW, Patricia - thanks for the link to that story. It was illustrative to read in a several different ways.
1) the woman's reluctance to be known as a black woman that dated IR
2) it's an online dating experience that produced the ultimate result
3) the black woman's low threshold for difficulty when it concerned her IR relationship
4) the refutation of the belief that it is almost impossible to find a mate if you have a child from a previous relationship
5) the fact that sometimes your mother actually does know best
6) the very happy ending (smile)
So, just want to give you props on that one...
Christelyn Luna Noire Many women are very wary of online dating but it's a part of life, you are missing out on a lot of potential mates if you don't try online. I know many women are scared at the prospect but Paul C. Brunson did some great tweets on how to stay safe when going out with someone you meet online. Chris, it would be great to have him back to do an article about that, his suggestions were awesome and he had other women giving some of theirs. It's a viable option, you just have to be smart about it, many of those tips he gave for online I'd use when dating someone you may have met out and about. That was a great story and yes unfortunately what happens w/ some bw is they are self-saboteurs when it comes to online dating. Which is so odd b/c alot of bw wouldn't sabotage a bad relationship with a bm, they're work for what they didn't want. But a non-bm does one minor thing or nothing at all just some imagined slight and he's tossed out on his keister in a hurry.
Marcieluna Beautiful couple!
Patricia Kayden Wow! This story had me in joy tears and this quote and his vow was what Christelyn and the ladies on here are promoting. Peace in love
What an awesome story! I could see her glow through the pc screen!
"After glimpsing a tiny profile picture of her, Snider decided that Howell “looked like all I could ever ask for in a woman”
“Peace is the result of love,” said the couple’s officiant, Colman McCarthy (a former Washington Post columnist). “And if love were easy, we’d always be good at it.”
Snider said things didn’t need to be easy, they just needed to endure. “You’re the one woman I want to spend the rest of my life with,” he told Howell in his vows. “You’ll never get rid of me.”
I just hope the indecisive women do not mess things up for the gals who know what they want.
I think it's "groundbreaking" because it is a black man GIVING black women the permission (so to speak) of dating and mating outside of their race. I actually finished reading the book about one week ago and because I have quick eyes, I was finished in two days. I definitely feel that the book is geared more towards black women in their late 30's and 40's as I will be 30 in a couple of months and felt that I grew up in a generation where you dated and mated with whomever you chose. Of course there were challenges and people who would ask "why" but I never felt the need to explain. It was a good read for me.
I have JUST watched Waiting To Exhale. =)
Ricky T LOL in real time.
Its like watching 50% of what this blog is about on the big screen. eugeniamitchell
Ricky Teugeniamitchell now I remember that movie.
Ricky Teugeniamitchell
What did you think? Like it?
I loved it! Entertaining and funny! Lela Rochon is gorgeous! Patricia Kayden eugeniamitchell
Ricky TPatricia Kaydeneugeniamitchell "Lela Rochon is gorgeous!"
ITA! She's a living doll!
Ricky T Patricia Kayden I love the scene where she's on the balcony with the drunk guy and he throws the orange at her and she throws it back and hits him in the head LOL!
I thought it was Karla!? :) eugeniamitchell Ricky Patricia
Ricky T I saw this movie when it first came out. I was in Monterey, CA, which is significant because there are very few BW living there (most likely, the ones that are there are going the the Naval Postgraduate School like I did). I went to a matinée and though there were several BW there, the theater was packed with WW and some WM (no BM at that showing). When Angela Bassett burned up the clothes in the BMW, they cheered. When Lela Rochon threw the orange, they cheered. When Whitney Houston told her married lover he was the "scum of the effing Earth", they cheered. I was watching the crowd more than I was watching the movie because they were so entertaining.
I watched it as a child and recall enjoying the movie. I only remember the car-burning scene, the scene where an overweight guy (who, it turns out, is Bunk from HBO's The Wire!) grunts like a bear while sexing Whitney Houston, a bonfire with the four friends at the end of the film, and one line from Houston: "once you get used to being treated well, you can't go back to bullshit" or something like that. That line came to mind the first time I was properly courted. After dealing with so many frogs who didn't put any real effort to courting me, it was refreshing to be with a guy who helped me set a new yardstick for how I want to be treated. Karla Ricky T
I get the feeling there is no tolerence for comments regarding God and his laws. As I am not trolling here and want to see BW enjoying life as all women of the human race. With that being said I will go away peacefully.
@reem11, why would you think that? I'm a Christian and I know of others on this board that are Christian or believe in God. But of course they may be some that don't.
reem11 Huh, what? Elaborate please. God and His laws do not speak of any prohibitions against interracial dating and marriages. Unfortunately, the good folks of Pike Co, KY (my home state, pray for us y'all) don't think so. But back to the comment at hand. What you're saying seems to have come from way out left field. What do you mean?
reem11
Smart move.
Brenda55 reem11 I think so too and I said so below. This group has varying beliefs on religion if you can't respect that this may not be the place for you.
christelyn, u have to watch a bm on youtube's vid .his youtube acct name is 1masterteacher and the title is something like, "in response to lydia cotton, do bw limit themselves when it comes to men?" btw, he thinks we should date all races.
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