Question of the Week: Is it Wrong for Me to Associate Black Men with Drama & Heartache?

I'm late to the party, but I do think it's wrong to associate black men or any person with drama and heartache. This is coming from someone who, while I haven't live that many years on this Earth, I have been through a range of emotions/feelings. I have never been out on a date with black men before, but I have been through phases in my teenage years where I thought everyone white was right and black was wrong. Then life experiences hit me, then I became very pro-black lol. Then I became anti-black and white men but very pro-Latin men. The many experiences lessons later I became anti-men, and later anti-humans in general which pretty much lasted until *very* recently lol. You see where I am going with this?

I think I had to realize that when talking about any type of relationship, since we humans aren't perfect, you may have negative experiences with people, but that doesn't mean that we should start ruling out them because you think a certain group do you more wrong than others. Because let me tell ya, I have been wronged by *all* types of people in my life. It's only until recently that I realized that I should judge people as individuals and not by the group to which they "belong". There will always be evil, hateful, insensitive people of any race, but they are also good, well-meaning people as well. The thing is you have to try to seek the latter group out.

Also, look at it this way, how would you feel if someone ruled you out based on awful stereotypes? I had this happend to me a few things, and it was the worst feeling for me. In any event, while I'm still trying to figure out this whole dating and life thing, I do know now to not pre-judge anyone.

Interesting, and as usual, very well written piece.

Internalized oppression is a beast and is most of what we're dealing with as African Americans (and we're not the only ones). It’s all about how an oppressed people learn to identify with the aggressor as a means of survival or socialization, and becomes complicit, even begins to oppress themselves even when the oppressive force has subsided or is absent.

Whether also stereotyping ourselves and not really liking or identifying with others who are black, and inevitably distancing ourselves from it all (see, I'm not like them… “Reaction Formation” as a defense mechanism), or embracing and acting out those "negatives" often associated with black people (this is how we roll).

I do appreciate the introspection Christelyn. To your title question though, yes, it is wrong to associate anyone with anything preemptively.

Kaikou -

You are a very strong, self assured woman. I bet there are plenty of other black women quietly feel the way you do, but they keep it to themselves and talk loyalty.

Whoo, lots of good comments here! This question is interesting and here's my personal take:

I have never dated a black and do not seek to date one.
Outside of the fact that I don't find them physically attractive;my criteria or standards are uber high (I have been told by many to lower them) and like others have said I would have to forgo/ignore/change to include the majority of black men in my dating pool.
This will not happen because I pride myself on standards.

Outside of intimate relationships even I would have to say I am cautious with the blk people I meet. The handful of blk people I know (non family) I know through upbringing or school. If I meet a blk person through other means old or young you are a stranger and treated as such.
Some people might be shocked by that, but honestly I am uncomfortable in an all blk construct, but thrive and feel most comfortable in diverse communities.

And yes, I have stereotyped the group of people that I am apart of and said the same statement towards them because they were/are unfamiliar to me.

Note: I wish more "blacks" engaged in a diverse community. When your the sole racial representative of your group, I can see how the outside world could VIEW it as abandonment when it's NOT.

deep discussion going on.....I don't think any particular ethnic or racial group of men are associated with drama or emotional turmoil. The issue with black men and women is culture standard and the normalization of historical negative behavior as Dr. Young have aptly stated in her response. What the woman seeking advice should ask is why is she attracting such negative men into her own life? Without psycho-analyzing her via little quote....it might have more to do with her own internalized standard she sets for herself in term of the men that she invites into her own life. I truly believe if she decides tomorrow to exclusively date rainbow men, same drama would follow because its about the character of the man not his skin color or ethnic background.

I know from experience, to seek 'quality' man, you need to first identify what it is you are looking for and focus more on developing and strengthening your own emotional well being and uplifting your own standard.....because we all send out unconsciousness signals to people without being aware of it. I'm of the philosophical perspective that we attract what we are @ different stages of our lives.

I would also like to add.....I've discussed this with some of my girlfriends and that is....we tend to tolerate a lot more BS from black men than we would ever take from any other group of men. Its this mind set that treats black men like a fragile precious little thing that should be protected, while they've yet to extend the same courtesy to black women.

I should also mention this tidbit from the person who posted the question:

"So I have tried to date white men and have been treated totally different and I love it but I am still single and I do not see myself dating another blk man."

Dang it--I meant treat HER. Sorry.

Let's see: she allowed those BM to treat them like crap, soooo she needn't bother dating b/c her so-called choices in men (regardless of race/ethnicity, of course) will only get worse. Been through plenty of mess myself, but even I understand neither all BM are evil/drama-filled nor nonblack men a romantic panacea.

Internalized oppression...interesting. Yeah, she should stay on the bench and continue flying solo until her mind is right.

[But what do I know? I'm not even dating and still consider "good" black men the stuff of urban legend *shrug*. Moot points, but still.]

Analyse it all you want, backwards and forward, sideways and down.

My life has gotten so much calmer since I left black men behind. My emotional state is better, my physical health is better, etc. Best thing I ever did, and the reasons why don't even mean anything to me anymore, cuz I don't care!

i do not believe that we should enter into any relationship with a man outside our race thinking it will be smooth sailing. Yes we are have been hurt but we need to remember we were the ones who chose to enter into relationships with these. all men are men and being in a relationship with my babe has proved that.. never will i make a blanket statement that all black men are like this or that and sometimes i for one have to catch myself cause there have been times when thoughts like this have crosses my mind..

This was an interesting comment from one of my white, male FB friends, and I thought it lends another dimension to the conversation:

James Pizon Interesting points by Dr. Young, although I would be interested to see medical studies on the genetic propensity of "internalized oppression" to be passed on within DNA across generations, as opposed to a behavior excusing persecution complex reinforced by cultural osmosis. Excellent, thoughtful & honest conversation in the comments section. Leave it to empowered women to have a mature, open dialogue on race relations in America, while media runs from it faster than a lie from a truth.

BTW, does my blog look funny to anybody else right now?

"And black women with and without children need to do the SAME thing. IMO Black boys don’t need “black fathers”, they need GOOD fathers regardless of “race”.

Just like black girls have had to come to terms with the fact that their black fathers are going to be with whoever makes them personally happy for whatever reason, black boys are going to have to do the same concerning their black mothers."

The above comment made me think again about my position on black boys needing black fathers. Honestly, I've always believed the affirmative. Before embarking on my plan to have a child, I knew that since I preferred to date IR, it would be best to have a child with a man of another race. Why? I wondered what effect my romantic preferences would have on a would be black son. Thus, I thought it would be best to choose and nonblack man and I did. Of course, that thought occurred to me years before I actually had a child, but still.

But again, a good father is better than a black father for race's sake.

I think it's wrong to associate black men with heartache and drama. Why? I've known black men who for gender justice in personal relationships and society at large. My own father, while not a perfect man when he was alive, taught me a very valuable lesson that he probably didn't even realize he taught. And yes, he was a black man. I have an older brother and black male friends whom I get along with very well. I'm not saying that you are but I'm under no illusions regarding white and other nonblack men. Crossing the color line does not mean wine and roses. There are pleny of nonblack women who are abused physically and sexually by nonblack men. So if we are going to associate all the drama with black men, who are we going to love? In other words, who is drama free? At the same time, we must keep a balance. Black men are in no way shape or form perfect so we must keep speaking our truths no matter who it hurts.

"Affirmative Action dating" - This is a great phrase blkqueen, and it really sums up everything I was trying to say. This should go in the book Christelyn.

I see so many black women bending over backwards to give BM a 'pass' based simply on skin color. If a black man calls you a b-tch during an argument, he's still your strong black king. If a white man does it, forget it!

In reality, both men should be treat equally - as losers.

Ali said:

"See, but the thing is – I have the same standard for every guy. I don’t hold diff. races to diff. standards. NO WAY. When it comes to what I want, I’m very clear. But every white guy I’ve dated (again, to be fair, I’ve only dated a handful, not the whole population) has met, if not exceeded those standards. Maybe there was no chemistry, or he lived in a diff. state/country or he was too short or whatever, but the guys met those minimum standards, no problem.

As far as black men? Not even met the bare minimum standards. The only way it would have worked is if I graded them on a ‘curve’. Like – well, he’s successful and well educated, so I guess it’s fine that he is rude to the waitress and expects sex on the first date and talks bout himself all the time and has a child out of wedlock. Only if I made those kind of major ‘trade-offs’ would a relationship be possible. Since I was completely unwilling to make them, no real relationships w/ black men resulted."

***********************************************************

My point of view exactly. The only way most black men are going to make my standards is if I practice my own little "affirmative action" dating program. I would have to ignore their faults and liabilities and give black men preference based solely on skin color.

Definitely will not happen.

And, since that is not happening, the fact is that I haven't dated any black men for years, and it seems unlikely that I will ever do so in the future, since I'm in a serious long-term relationship with a white man. Also, I have to consider my age. I'll probably be married in the near future, so I'll be out of the dating scene, so probably won't be dating any black guys in the future.

I think she is asking the wrong question. Because she or anyone else has not dated "every black man," then it would be naive to think that you should associate problems with a group of people. The question she should be asking is of herself: "What kind of a man am I choosing?" If she is picking certain qualities in black men that results in "drama," then you can say that she will also choose those qualities in a man of another race. When the young lady have become aware of what she wants and does not want in a man, then she will be able to make better choices in men (of any race)as a partner and as a father figure. Also keep in mind that you are raising two Black boys who will become Black men so you should be looking for a good role model for them (you are also a role model for your boys not just the man in your life).

With a mindset like that, those boys are going to have VERY interesting lives growing up.

Hmm... the answer is "No". She's NOT wrong for thinking that. If she wants to associate Black men with "drama and heartache", then she should. Life will be less stressful for her, and for the Black men she may come across in the future. So everyone gains.

In fact, I think everyone should use this thought process. If all of the people that a person dated have exhibited certain negative attributes, then why not assume that THAT entire group will hold the very same attributes? It conserves precious time and energy.

Who knows? Maybe then, everyone wouldn't be quick to call racism on a person that excludes a group of potential mates who are KNOWN to be openly loud and abrasive.

Also, people need to be allowed to interpret who they characterize in their own way.

So, maybe all of these these loud and abrasive people are Black men that a woman has dated in the past; Black men she's seen in the subway chatting on their cellphones as if they're NOT in public... that's up to that particular person to interpret it as "all Black men don't know how to act". After all, how can personal experiences be wrong? They're YOUR personal experiences, right? If we want to extend our experiences into universal terms, aren't we all well within our rights to do so?

Hmmm - I'm going to go out on a limb and say this. I've haven't had all horrible experiences with Black men (frankly, I haven't had that many). But compared to the way other races of men have treated me and the black women I've known - culturally there's no comparison. Some of my girlfirends who were hesistant about dating outside the race - once they start, it's a wrap, they're all for IR.

This is a tough one. I don't believe in excluding any race when it comes to love, ESPECIALLY not my own. There are terrible men of every race. On the other hand, if 98% of your dating experince (and those of friends and relatives) with black men have been negative or down right abusive, it does give one pause.

I'd like to hear other people's thioughts on this. Many of the black men I've met declare proudly that they 'only date white women' and have 'never dated black women'. This is so disturbing, a reflection of their self hatred and self loathing, and I don't want to be like this.

But black women are abused at a rate 22 times higher than other races of women. So just to say "oh, there's bad men of every race" feels like a bit of a cop out. 1 in 3 hispanic guys are not in jail. Italian American men don't abondon their children at the high rates and call their own women 'bitch' and 'ho'.

So it's a tough question. You don't want to pre-judge, but you also want to guard your heart and have your eyes open.

All black men aren't drama. I agree that some men are drama no matter what race they are. And men of all races do stupid stuff. I believe the important thing is boys learn from men. A determined and strong minded man can handle teaching boys to be men. And if that involves a non-black male.. that works too.

My advice for this woman would be to find the BEST man period to have a relationship with hopefully leading to marriage. Having a poor black father figure is much worse and down right damaging and dangerous then having a good white (or other non-black) father figure by far. Children need good parents/parent figures/step-parent's period.

Plus, it would never even enter the mind of your average single black father to think of how his choice of woman race wise would effect his children male or female.

You'd be hard pressed to find a single black male who's fathered children (including the very tiny minority of black fathers who have full custody of their children and are the sole provider) to think "since the mother of my children is black, perhaps I should exclusively date black women for the sake of my kids. Especially my daughter/daughters".

No. Black men date and marry who they choose to regardless of what anyone including their sons or daughters think about it.

And black women with and without children need to do the SAME thing. IMO Black boys don't need "black fathers", they need GOOD fathers regardless of "race".

Just like black girls have had to come to terms with the fact that their black fathers are going to be with whoever makes them personally happy for whatever reason, black boys are going to have to do the same concerning their black mothers.

When a woman is in a happy satisfying committed relationship with a quality man who knows how to father well, it's good for the ENTIRE family.

My two cents no one asked for...

I think the biggest mistake some black women make looking for love with non-black men is thinking that will mean no drama or heartache.

Men do dumb stuff, regardless of race.

Having said that, my experience is that non-black men do treat women differently from black men. Take the best black guy I ever dated and the best non-black guy and I was treated differently -- one wasn't BETTER, it was just different.