This was an interesting conversation, and the host, Miguel Lloyd was shocked about some of the things I said, but I couldn’t figure why. I pretty much spoke common sense. But hey, you be the judge.
This was an interesting conversation, and the host, Miguel Lloyd was shocked about some of the things I said, but I couldn’t figure why. I pretty much spoke common sense. But hey, you be the judge.
Chris, I hear you. You said at a point that black people are the only ones telling their daughters to date someone who is less educated, less intellectually disposed than them. I agree with you. I know a couple of Indian girls whose parents would NEVER tell them to marry the garbage man or bricklayer. In fact, they expect their daughters to marry up. Why do we have such low expectations for ourselves?
Chis,
Sometimes, I don't even know why you bother. :( But lucky for me and other supporters of your blog that you do. The CORPORATE LAWYER comment was ridiculous; Notice she didn;t say she was MARRIED!!! just dating and we know how long she went to school to become a lawyer so we can take a stab at her age. This indoctrination of BW is SO DEEP Also, she talked about getting to know what that man dreams about, getting to know his goals but my question is HOW OLD ARE THESE MEN!!! How long are you supposed to give a man to dream before he GROWS UP and DOES. And why for God's sake would any woman in her right mind go for a man she has to RAISE or SUPPORT over a man that is RAISED and able to SUPPORT HER??? IS IT ME OR IS THAT CRAZY I must admit I was discouraged hearing this....
Pearl
Tim Mcgraw - he's SO DANG SEXY!
PhillyGirl I bother because the ignorance must be displayed, and so many people need to SEE things for themselves to BELIEVE them. That's why I do it. But yes, the indoctrination is deep.
Some of these attitudes are why the BC can't get ahead. It seems like people don't understand the difference between vapid social climbing and making an effort to build intergenerational wealth. Why is it that so often, men in these discussions think it's natural for them to want the most attractive young woman they can get, yet it's a problem that a woman seeks a man with the most resources? It's 2 sides of the same coin! Of course, character matters because looks fade and money can go or be poorly managed.
I listened to the interview and I was amazed at how dishonest the men came across when it came to the failings of some men. (not to mention how dismissive they were of some of Christelyn's valid points) They KNOW men would never be able to accept a woman being more successful than them financially. They even made excuses for men being unmotivated and unsuccessful, and one caller had the nerve to suggest that a successful woman could motivate a man to be more. (Really? like trying to upgrade a man is a weekend project)THAT IS NOT HER JOB!
KfromVA This is where the father comes in (to motivate) as young boys. Not their girlfriend and wives. But no word as to how the bm need to fix themselves. These excuses they make for each other will only keep them in their own bondage. This same bondage they blame on the wm.
KfromVA And I think they concentrated too much on "income". It's not just about income, it's about status as well. Look at the Obama's. When he was a Senator making 175,000 dollars a year, Michelle was making nearly 400,000 as a hospital executive. But he had the STATUS and the power. A doctor making 400,000 a year could be married to a beauty salon owner who makes 500,000 a year. But he still has the status and the power. No one thinks he's marrying down just because she makes more. Status also comes into play.
On the flip side, if a guy is a cop making 40,000 a year and he's married to a school teacher making 50,000, they probably won't have problems. Even though she's bringing in 10,000 bucks more than he is, they are on the same wavelength status wise. The problems happen when the cop married the district attorney who makes 150,000. Not only does she earn nearly 4 times what he does, but she has the status and power. That's where the problems come into play.
The guys on the radio show seem to think that we're claiming the cop and the teacher would be the ones with the problems. No, status wise, they are compatible.
Good job! You stuck to your guns and articulated your points well...
I took issue from the moment that they started up with the bricklayer crap...I mean no offense to anyone when I say this...but I know of ZERO brothas laying any bricks. Maybe a better example would be a bus driver, factory worker, FedEx/UPS delivery driver. But for me regardless of the example used, I am hardly interested. If the man isn't equally yoked with me holding at LEAST a 4 year degree (actually have a master's degree). Maybe I am a snob....but my mom didn't settle...my dad has a degree and if you ask me...they work well together because they each bring something to the table and have a true partnership.
This standard has never changed for me. My husband has a 4 year degree.
krschropp Well I do know black brick layers. Even so I took the same attitude that you did. Both of my parents were college grads and that is what I was expected to bring home.
As I got older I went looking for someone who had similar interests that I had. I married up which quite frankly is what most women seek to do. Race meant nothing since we are compatible in all other areas.
I feel like Love is Love, until we add Race, Religion and Class. It must also be noted that, America does not promote positive images of Black people or Women.
-cont-
In the past the opportunities for women were limited to stay at home or pink collar jobs that you did until you married. That is not the world we live in today.
In the past a factory job did garner a living wage better than those pink collar jobs did so it was no big deal when the factory guy married the school teacher. Those days are gone and it it not just black men who are suffering.
In the past that nice safe government job lifted lots of people into the middle class. Those jobs are now threatened.
To the corporate attorney dating the blue collar guy. Please. I am happy for you but 20 seconds on a radio show does not a convincing argument make. I have no clue what her relationship is. What the balance of power in it is or anything. Her one anecdotal example is meaningless and really not good enough to convince me to advocate for black women dating “down”. I can give you several anecdotal examples where relationships like hers did not work. Oh and lets get off this meme that lawyers all make big bucks. The profession is so over-saturated right now that a lot of them are seeking alternate employment and not make those high salaries they used too. So Mr. Blue collar may indeed be closer to her income wish then you think.
Character over color. Sure. What the host of the show and too many argue for American black women is Character over education. Character over economics. Stop the madness and stop talking that nonsense. Please. American black women just need to use the same yardstick that every other race and culture of women on earth uses to choose a mate. It is just that simple. If the guy is not what you want and does not meet your standards then keep it moving until you find what you want.
Brenda55 i wish you had called into this show! you should do one of these shows with christelyn one day!!
Brenda55
I wish you had called in and dropped this knowledge bomb on them! They wouldn't have known what to do with themselves.
Brenda55 All I can say is "PREACH!"
-cont-
In the past the opportunities for women were limited to stay at home or pink collar jobs that you did until you married. That is not the world we live in today.
In the past a factory job did garner a living wage better than those pink collar jobs did so it was no big deal when the factory guy married the school teacher. Those days are gone and it it not just black men who are suffering.
In the past that nice safe government job lifted lots of people into the middle class. Those jobs are now threatened.
What that means is times are changing and men and women have to make adjustment. Black women with their emphasis on education are poised to compete for the jobs that are out there. Too many black men are not. Further of the black men who are educated and credentialed they are not always choosing black women as mates. So this whole consider a brother who has less than you is dead in the water as far as I am concerned. I took issue with the host's statement that highly educated black women have to settle or consider black men who make less. That is utter nonsense. He forgets that in the end it is a numbers game. There are more non-black men in this country and the world than there are black men. Black women just need to select from this wider pool.
The interview went well and you hung in there in spite of the pile up.
There seem to be this attitude of “Marry whom ever you want except....... when it comes to black women however.
The hitch is usually the lack of economic parity between black men and women that exists today and the social fall out from that.
The host said that black men have a harder time in the work place, are felt to be intimidating and are passed over for promotion and opportunity as a result. Black women have less of a problem in this area. OK lets go with this.
This dynamic in the work place is not unique to black men. Jewish men have had the same problem in the past with bigotry limiting their ability to compete in the work place.. If you weren't a WASP forget it you were not getting ahead. "Man in the Gray Flannel Suit". Asian men have that problem, men of Arab decent have that problem as do Latinos and Native American men. How did these men achieve? They started their own business, grew them and took care of theirs. The bought and ran the franchise to make money. They went in to professions where they can hang a shingle and run their own shops. They got out there and organized and fought until they got their piece of the pie. They found their niche.
Your discussion of other minority men besides black men and how they succeed got me thinking of another dyanmic. The parents of Asian or Jewish women put a lot of pressure on them to marry up. If an Asian woman brings home a man that doesn't look like he can support her, there is usually hell to pay. Are American black women under the same familial pressure? I don't think they are. They are under pressure in the opposite direction from the community. I think many men in these high performing minority groups feel that they have to succeed to not only please their parents, but also their potential mates parents. Black men feel no such pressure.
Brice Cameron "there is usually hell to pay."
In this sentence, 'usually' s/b 'ALWAYS'. In caps.
Brice Cameron And if Christelyn said that, I'm sure the host and the other folks on there would have said that's not true. As if black folks are pushing black boys to get their education. They aren't even pushing them to marry the girls they impregnate!
KelsBrice Cameron Exactly. Expectations are very low for young black men (maybe even bm in general) these days.
KelsBrice Cameron
Brice you are so right. I graduated from GWU. I saw the kind of men that my fellow co-eds were looking for. You may "slum it" if you are just sleeping around but when it came time to bring someone home to meet the folks it was a different story. Pedigree was all.
Even with my own marriage at age 47. His mom wanted to know what I did for a living, what my credentials were, approximate assets, who my parents were, what they did and their approximate assets. I was vetted complete with wallet biopsy. (Love you for that line Law.)
It was not until after our marriage ( no pre-nup in our case) and the lawyers,accountants and financial planners descended that I figured out what the third degree was all about.
On my end I knew what he did for a living and his educational level and yeah probed the finances......ahem discreetly. As I said did not get the full picture until after the ink was dry on the marriage licence however. I asked about his family, ex wives, children and the like. That is what was expected.
Kola Boof said it in a post a while back:
"Our only loyalty should be to our Ovaries."
So to any young ladies reading this, pick the best father for your future children that you can. And Christelyn is telling you how.
oekmama I tell this to my niece. It's not just about you! Who can you imagine being the best father to your children? Who do you trust with your life and the lives of your kids?
Lili2009oekmama I don't have any children but I would be carefully vetting as the first man a girl falls in love with her father. This fact has been highlighted by numerous studies. It is the father figure that heavily guides females when choosing future partners.
Lili2009oekmama
"It's not just about you!"
Eggzactly. Picking a mate is not just picking a mate. More importantly it is picking a father for your children.
" Picking a mate is not just picking a mate. More importantly it is picking a father for your children."
BINGO! That is the mentality that I have, that I've grown up with. That's how I've almost always seen it. Not just selectively choosing a mate for me, but also for my future (possible) children. Joyce345
Lili2009oekmama "Who do you trust with your life and the lives of your kids?"
Nailed. It. That IS the bottom line.
You were good, they sucked.
Yep, that's it, no more to say. Miguel, once I figured out that he was not the kind of vato I expect when I hear that name, and Chump were predictable to the point of stereotype.
My notes as I listened:
We 'seek out the crazies'? Is that Brotha supposed to be very smart? Wow, talk about blame the victim. So it's my fault that some wierdo rolls down his car window and screams obscenities at me as he drives by?
SMH. I can't believe that THEY find what YOU said (about the BC 'Give-a-brotha-a-chance'-okey-doke offensive. But this is what you get when you venture into the BC - denial. Spectacular.
What is this guy sayin? Sistah is to blame coz they're makin too much money?
Caller Quote: 'I don't have a six-fiure income, but I have the intellectual capacity of someone who does.' Then why aren't you making a six-fiure income? What's your plan to get there? Or further? Yes, it's about values, shared values.So if that Bricklayer doesn't share my values, then Sayonara.
About that producer Kia. LOL: My mom didn't tell me to marry a lawyer or doctor. huh? My mom said, I could BE anything I wanted to do.
LOVE your final phrase: Choose Character over Color.
I thought it went well. Christelyn, you did well keeping your cool and finding connections with your core beliefs and their opinions.
oekmamaOh, I forgot about the, I don't have a six-fiure income, but I have the intellectual capacity of someone who does comment!!!! My thought was HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO MATCH. and if you truly did, why aren;t you making six figures!!
Hey very interesting but what I am shocked by is by there reaction with somethings you said...you know it just escaped me....ooohhh boy... Anyway, the host later on goes on to say maybe your environment as a child, living in a melting pot community contributed to you having a liking to non black men. Okkk(sigh) yes BW at times do feel that pressure or added responsibility to have this loyalty, because even after being exposed to many cultures/ colors in college they leave still thinking they will find this IBM after ignoring all the nice guy in school. Guess what, when she comes home to visit the IBM school mate across the street, who went to college got exposed to many cultures/ colors (even though he grew up around Black people) decided to come home with Becky. It has nothing to do with where you lived, whether around black people or mixed community.
Black men do not feel that added loyalty at all.
Once they go around and see what else God has made they get hocked...me to thats my thinking! I grew up in the Caribbean always was fascinated by cultures and people that looked different than me. It could be tiring seeing the same people all the time, sometime a mix is good. Now I have lived in the US almost same time as I did in the Islands and being able to see different things is GOOD!
One of my favorite things to do is listen to a discussion while I play bubble town. Does wonders for the concentration. Prof Banks will be at my school tomorrow (I've also had the opportunity to see Tim Wise too) and I can't wait.
http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/carolyn-edgar-give-up-the-negro-improvement-plan/
I knew there was going to be a hysterical black women who came on to say that there's nothing wrong with dating a nice bricklayer. I knew it.
Black people are very pro-blue collar. No one is telling an Asian or white women to be open to the bricklayer, so why are black women constantly being told to be open the bricklayer?
The corporate attorney dating the guy with no passport might want to look into getting her man a passport, she can surely afford to buy him one and take him on a trip.
Don't these people know that "upgrading your man" doesn't work? What other group of women is being told to get with the bricklayer and upgrade him? No other group of women, that's who.
Jamila
Almost at the end of that article:
"You can’t change your mate. You are supposed to love your mate as he is. If you can’t do that, you are with the wrong partner. Period."
Right on the money, Jamila!
But you also have a valid point in your own words. Why should "black" women be singled out in this way? My answer: They shouldn't. It's definitely a double standard in out society. Yet at the same time, I think too many women put an excessive amount of emphasis on the financial aspects of having a relationship, letting that one area DEFINE the relationship.
The deal breaker should be no ambition!!! soon the secretary would not have any men to date? lol All the bricklayers are taken by the lawyers...hehehe(jokin).
AGAIN...No Ambition should be the deal breaker....not someone that wants to remain the bricklayer for his entire life....that would so annoy me!!
nyaw My grandfather was a bricklayer and it's a good and honest profession. He worked his body to the bone and brought home a check every 2 weeks for over 30 years.
But my grandfather did not do all of that so that my mother could marry another brick layer with an 8th grade education. He did that so my mother could get a college education and wouldn't have to marry a man who had to work with his hands and not even be able to take his family on vacation. Again, nothing wrong with menial labor careers. But every generation should try to do better than the last.
Jamilanyaw
Forget about the children; won't somebody please think of the bricklayers? LOL.
Anyhoo, many guys say they're looking for an ambitious/independently minded women or that they don't mind being out-earned, but I've found that many of such cannot handle a spouse more successful than they are. They may be ok with it in the beginning, but sooner or later that resentment shows up. If you're lucky it's sooner and you can quit then move on. Otherwise, you're stuck in a drawn out struggle of trying to assuage his ego before finally giving up.
Ambition is also relative, eg an ambitious 25-35yr man has room to grow career-wise, so where you meet him at today is less of a big deal. However, an ambitious 50yr old is probably at his peak professionally and economically speaking, so you have to accept him exactly as he is and not harbour unrealistic expectations.
Jamila A bricklayer? They can miss me with that crap. I. DON'T. THINK. SO! As I stated on the "Men Protect Their Women" posting my daughter (should I have a girl) will be groomed to date and marry her equal on ALL levels.
MadamCJCPAJamila Nyaw has a point. If the guy is laying bricks to pay his way through school. Ambition.
oekmama Ambition is nice, but here is the thing about upgrades. An upgrade is when you dump or leave behind something for another of higher quality or opportunity. I upgrade my coach seats for business or first-class seats. I resign from one company to take a higher ranking and paying job at another company, or even with a promotion within the same company the old job is left behind it doesn't go along with me for the ride.
So what do you think a woman is going to do with a man that needs an upgrade? I don't do fixer-uppers, it is as Brenda55 said, "water seeks its own level."
Women have to remember when the chips are down and you're pregnant and cannot work if your salary was the one holding things down, you two are now screwed in an economy like today's. If your man makes the same amount as you do (preferably more) then with proper planning you can weather the storm, but let us not get it twisted today's economy is price-pointed for two household incomes and daycare cost an arm-and-a leg, so if you want a "traditional" family dynamic (i.e. a home with a white-picket fence, car, and 2.4 children) then a salary imbalance is not the way to go to achieve that goal.
MadamCJCPAJamila why cant the brick laying man date a maid or waitress? there are many bw doing those types of pink color jobs too.
jess1MadamCJCPAJamila because they obviously don't want them...that's why they get so upset when higher paying jobs women want something higher
but great question though
Jamila
Upgrading your man doesn't work. No man wants to be his woman's project. He will resent her for it and probably cheat or do something else to act out his frustration.
PearlJamila
Men have a basic need to feel NEEDED. If he can't support your lifestyle, he most likely won't be happy in the relationship.
That's why millionaire men have no problem marrying waitresses and nannies.
Joyce345PearlJamila
"That's why millionaire men have no problem marrying waitresses and nannies."
Quite frankly that is the stuff of romance novels and rarely happens. Money tends to marry money. People of similar backgrounds marry the same. That is the norm for most people except of course black women. That however is changing. Its about time.
This corporate lawyer is blowing smoke up my butt. Why isn't anyone encouraging black men to stay in school, gain education and gain those promotions? I never hear this in these conversations. There should not be backlash because a woman asks for something in a mate that she possesses herself.
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