Question of the Week: “I Told Him I Love Him, Now…Crickets.”

sorry for the double posts, but here is a great link about African adoption. One thing I forgot to add, sometimes extreme poverty can lead to a child being in an orphanage in countries like Chad...hence the scandal with Madonna adoption and the role the dying corrupt government played:

http://www.canadaadopts.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000378

that's a unique way of looking @ it. It used to be done in the West, but it ended with the 50s and modernization and nuclear family values. I know in many other cultures, they still do it.

I have a friend who is a social worker who has done several open adoptions this way (plus some fostercare-->adoption). No natural children.

5yo twins (boy & girl) adopted from a single mom w/ Huntington's. She's still alive 20 years later and visits. 7yo boy from mentally disabled single dad. He's still involved 25 years later.

I once saw a segment on 60 minutes on a surrogacy clinic in India. This clinic was used by many western couples who couldn't afford the option in their home countries. They either used their own eggs or that of another donor from their country. I hesitated to mention it, because, yes I did feel a bit uncomfortable about the idea, but I don't know, the Indian woman they profiled was able to build herself a home on her earnings and upgrade her lifestyle. I guess I don't have a firm opinion on it.
In any case, this is all just to say that for those of us who are marrying later for all the reasons detailed on these blogs- and dream of a family-you may still be able to achieve this with one or another out-of-the-box solutions if it's something you really desire.

I am glad that choice is available for women who want it. But if I were to use donor eggs, I want the eggs of a black woman, which can be hard to get. If that sounds racist, I don't mean to offend anyone.

I have nothing against Indian women; my father's people were originally from India, but I do not identify with that part of my genetic makeup and I know nothing about their culture because my father and his family were born and raised in the west and he was not a part of my life.

I feel like a black woman, I look like a black woman, and I came from a black woman so I would want the eggs of a black woman.

Well, of course I was assuming the egg would be from a black woman. I don't think it would be impossible to find a BW egg donor if you put your request out there. I remember another program I saw about an egg bank where they had BW and some other non white, non Asians wanting to donate- these women were well paid and screened-college students and such, but because their clients were white or Asian couples they couldn't use these women.
In the case of the Indian surrogates, as I mentioned, the parents were not using her eggs.

Oshun:
Thanks for the encouragement and thanks for the info. I did not know there was anything I could do to assess my fertility. My gynecologist has never mentioned any of those tests, but then, I have never asked.

When I turned 38 and was still unmarried and not in a relationship, I just decided to accept that I would most likely never be a mother. That was the only way I could move forward with my life, because I fell into a deep and crippling depression and required professional treatment to get out.

Any man who wants to marry me has to be willing to forgo biological children. I am not against trying to have children, but we would still have to deal with the high probability of failure (either in conception or carrying a child to term). Fertility treatments have a high failure rate, which increases as the woman get older. In fact, there are some clinics that do not do treatments on women 43 or over unless they use donor eggs from younger women. I read an article that claims a woman's chances of conceiving with her own eggs after age 43 was about 5% with IVF. I am not sure that I would want to use another woman's eggs, but I will cross that bridge when/if I get there.

Although intellectually I knew that women can't reproduce forever, I was just not conscious of the limited shelf life of my eggs as I went about my life. I did not plan my life and I expected everything to fall into place simply because I was a kind, hardworking, God-fearing woman. I knew nothing about finding or vetting quality men and there were no black women to learn from.

Everything I learned about men (including WM) and relationships, I learned the hard way. I wish the BWE/IR bloggers had been around 10 or 15 years ago (if any of them were around, I was not aware of them). Younger black women are so lucky; I hope they are really taking as much useful information as they can from these blogs.

I wanted to add if both partners really want a child, and they are financially able, they could consider using a surrogate using his sperm. It also occurs to me that if you had a younger female relative you could possibly use her eggs if she's willing. Then the child would also be related to you...

true, but also marrying a much older man (if you are also in late 30s or older) increases the chance of your child having sever disabilities if you decide to conceive and be successful. Surrogate motherhood is a good option, but all the legalities have to be clear from the get go with papers to prove it. There is this story here in Canada with a couple who used a surrogate mother to conceive, but wanted to abort the child because it has down syndrome. However, the surrogate mother refused because she is pro life and want to take on the child if the biological parents do not want it. So, since CHOICE means you can neither make a woman give birth, nor can you make her abort a fetus.....its a tough case.

ps. what about adoption guys?....there are millions of healthy American babies in the foster care system who will benefit from a loving safe home. Personally, its been my goal since the age of 16 to adopt 1-2 children when I got married, whether I will ever have a biological child or not.

Adoption is often more difficult than having a biological child for black women. First of all, we know that black women do not easily give up their babies, not even the poor teenage baby mamas who know nothing about raising a child. Most of the black children who end up in the foster care system or put up for adoption to black women are usually: 1)mentally troubled because of physical/sexual/emotional abuse, and were taken away from their mothers; 2)have chronic diseases/physical defects which may be congenital, genetic, or from the mother's drug use or poor nutritional status during pregnancy; these problems can be difficult for people to cope with unless they have tremendous resources; 3)are older because they have not been adopted for one of the above 2 reasons.

In addition, adoption can be a lengthy process in this country, even for white people. I have heard of people waiting 5 years or more for a child. I have know a few couples who never got their child and aged out of consideration. Or they were offered older, difficult children whom they refused. And there is always the looming possibility that the birth mother will change her mind and try to reclaim the child even years after she has given the child away. Who wants the stress and legal expense of fighting to keep a child.

Furthermore, there is discrimination against older couples. Many are routinely denied infants and encouraged to take older or special needs children, which is unfair. Why is a forty-something woman not entitled to raising a child from infancy or a young age?

Foreign adoption is also difficult for black women. Many black countries make it almost impossible for all but the highest income black people to adopt their children. And many do not allow anyone over 45 to adopt their children, even if one partner is under 45 (they seem to make exceptions for white women. Madonna adopted her black kids from Malawi in her fifties and late forties).

These black countries actually prefer to give away their babies to middle class white couples(even older ones) all over the world. Ethiopia is one such country. Their babies end up all over the world in the arms of mostly white women. Angelina Jolie just dropped in and got her infant without a problem. A few years ago, I was seriously considering adopting a child from Ethiopia, if Mr Right came along and it was too difficult to have our own children. But after looking into it, as a forty year old BW, I will not be preferred, unless my husband is a rich white man who can pull strings. I should not be surprised though; many Ethiopians consider themselves a different race from West Africans, from whom western blacks descend, and consider them inferior. They often refer to Western blacks as 'ugly Bantu' and 'slaves'.

The truth is, it is easier for a white woman to get a healthy black baby/young black child than a black woman. And unless a black woman is wealthy or famous, she will have difficulty getting a child of another race. I mean how does Sandra Bullock, who is single, get a healthy, black infant so quickly when I know there are black women, single or married, who want infants to adopt and have the resources and emotional wherewithal to be good mothers, even though they are not wealthy.

Lostkitty, thank you for being SO honest and truthful about your life experience. You are providing plenty of teaching moments for younger black women, and I hope that you find peace with whatever life might have in store for you. :)

Hello lostkitty,

No problem. I just thought I'd share that with you. I am so sorry. I can understand the depression concerning this. I go back and forth myself with that sometimes and those types of feelings can be so hard to deal with. I cried a few weeks ago from the overwhelm. I understand your need to be what you feel is realistic and to protect yourself from heartbreak. ((Hugs))

I hate that things have been the way they have been in the BC - as in there is so much damage and indoctrination to counter and deprogram young BG and BW from.

I too, like you had to learn everything about men the hard way. I am grateful for the BWE/BWIR blogs as they have helped tremendously, but there is so much to unlearn, relearn, and be exposed to for the first time it can be daunting.

I do hope that more and more younger BW can hear these messages. I try my best to spread bc being older and trying to learn everything the rest of the world already knows and learned a long time ago, for me is not fun at all. It can be rewarding when the lightbulbs do come on, but I feel cheated and out of place that I am having to do all this work now - so much later.

I'm not suggesting you go and tell every knucklehead you meet that you love him, that's just stupid. I've said throughout this thread that he should be doing something worthy of you loving him and expressing that. Nothing is wrong with holding your tongue if he's not doing any actions, I'll say it again, love is more than feeling it's an action. So if he is, then maybe you can feel free to say the big 'L' word. Until then yea I wouldn't go around all willy-nilly telling every man I love him whenever he does something nice for me, that's what men are supposed to do. Maybe you read wrong, to have my love or anyone's for that matter you need to be worthy of it. After about six months you should be able to tell whether he's into you or not, calling everyday doesn't mean he loves you. But by that time he should be talking about the future or you should be getting with your future, minus him. I've only told two men in my life that I love them, my ex-husband and my now future husband, that's how serious I take declarations of love. Some people aren't like me, some people just seem to say it to anybody they date for a little time, maybe our writer is that kind of person. But different strokes for different folks. Nothing is wrong with holding feelings close to your vest until you start seeing something that looks similar to love and have him talking about deeper commitment, then whip it out. I'm just saying, don't use love as ultimatum, don't play games with love, it never serves anyone's interest.

I've been told to NEVER EVER tell a man you love them first by my older aunts. It makes a woman sound very desperate, and that he could use her. Always always remember this: a woman CANNOT change a man and DONT EVEN HAVE SEX WITH HIM because you will get bound to him. Women have a hormone called pitocin in their bodies; and it will mess you up and possibly make you bitter;usually,not always though

No way to know for sure unless you ask. If this guy does not make a move, then you can think about whether you want to.

And don't hesitate to tell a guy what you want and ask what he wants. If you are looking for a serious relationship, then make this clear.

You are correct that a lot of guys would consider an older woman for a sexual or casual relationship, but not for something permanent (especially if they want kids). But that's NOT true for all guys.

Make your intentions clear and expect the same in return. Too many people get hurt because they assume things that aren't true.

Just ask!

I'm with you Tom, the only way to know is to ask. Unless you're a mind-reader there is just no way to know unless you ask. You can do that in a casual way, no need to go all 'desperately seeking' on anyone LOL. Subtly works. In my mature age, I've come to find out as my grandmother says 'closed mouths don't get fed' so if I want to know something I ask and don't just assume. Most of the time we, especially women, make all these assumptions good and bad and they end no being true. So I stopped assuming and started asking, if I wanted to know something, if I needed more clarity on a statement, I just asked and it works great. I don't wait to ask, I do it up front. I'll say it again, I just don't have time to waste, my time is too precious and everyone's time should be. So if you think he's interested, ask. Not all men are looking to do the cougar thing. My sweetie is 3 yrs younger, it seems negilible but I'm 38 and a type 1 diabetic so if he really wanted a baby, I'm not her. So I asked him about this early on, I didn't want any misunderstandings, we got clear that I don't want to risk my health and life or the health and life of a child, so no kids. It's not as hard we make it out to be.

I'm no expert, but I have it in good authority men will seek, date and mate with women they want and who wants them back. So, this young guy @ your work will put himself out there or at lease give you clear signals if he is into you. Personally, if the dude isn't manning up after the age of 21 when it comes to who he is interested in, then why waste your time on him?

I'm assuming he's in his late 20s, which will probably mean if he knows your age, he's very apprehensive about it. If a guys in his 40s expressed interest in me, I would be equally apprehensive about it since he's only few yrs younger than my own mom.

Well, it's a deviation from his usual behavior that he's engaged in for six months. While the woman doesn't know for sure if he backed off because of what she said, deviations in behavior aren't coincidental.

After six months, I expected my now-fiance to contact me on a daily basis because that's the standard we had reached. Something would be wrong if he didn't contact me in two days, and he would agree on that point.

Now I do agree that the general issue is that perhaps this woman thought her relationship was much deeper than it was, not necessarily the races or ages of the two individuals.

But I think there's definitely an issue here.

Where does it say he hasn't contacted her in 2 days?

ink....in this quote: "and two days I told him that I loved him and I haven’t heard from him since?"

I agree, and also see where Amber T. is coming from. Sadly, women, in this case black woman sometimes confuse nicety and genuine care with love. I say give it time and hopefully you can recognize a man loves you by how he treats you. Here is a great article about how this particular woman knows her hubby loves her....she has an awesome blog mostly about fashion:

http://www.lovemaegan.com/2009/02/i-know-my-husband-loves-me-because.html

Eugenia:

If they don’t feel the same it’s better to know up front before you waste anymore your precious time, especially at 48.

lostkitty:
That is why Evia's advice about dating three guys at a time and eliminating poor prospects early on is a good one. Many Americans seem to be hooked on "dating" instead of finding a partner for marriage. I am shocked at the number of men (white included) I've met in their 40's who have never been married. And these guys seem happy to be dating for years, as if they are still in high school or college.

Now maybe I am just unlucky to be meeting these never-married 40-ish men and there really aren't that many of them out there. But I am as reluctant to date an older man who has never been married as I am to date a much younger one.

There are currently 3 men between 43 and 50 who are interested in me;two are white, one is East Indian. All three have PhDs in a scientific field and all three are personable and handsome. One is overweight but still looks good enough to get a decent woman. But none has ever been married and I can't get past that. I am afraid to seriously date them because I think they may be secretly weird. There are more women men than men looking for marriage, so why has a "good" man in his 40s or 50s never been married? In my opinion, he either has unrealistically high standards or he is afraid of commitment or has been rejected for marriage because of inconspicuous weirdness.

if you are following Evia's many great advice about dating 3 men to figure out which one you click with.....why not put that into practice. Instead of making sweeping generalization of middle aged men who were never married. There are millions of women in their 40s who never married whether they got close to it or not....including a lot of black women....I don't think they would appreciate men prejudging them for it either.

Dating is where you figure out if a guy is a weirdo, commitment phobic, a jerk, a decent guy, a compatible life partner, etc, etc. I say, don't create barrier where there might not be. In our society, marriage is no longer the only way to have a lasting happy relationship (even if its not my cup of tea), hence why its a good idea to find out why some of these guys were never married, more likely than not they had long term happy relationships thou.

"Dating is where you figure out if a guy is a weirdo, commitment phobic, a jerk, a decent guy, a compatible life partner, etc, etc. I say, don’t create barrier where there might not be"

True. But there are reasons to be suspicious of an older man who has never been married, particularly non-black men whose group has a high rate of marriage.

A committed relationship is not the same as marriage--to me. So even if an older man has been involved in committed relationships, that means nothing if he did not take any one of those commitments to the level of marriage.

It is perfectly OK to eliminate some men from consideration without dating or after only a few dates. It is emotionally draining, time-consuming and fruitless to give every man who seems like a good candidate 3, 6, 9 months or more to reveal enough of himself.

It is no coincidence that, even though the US has a high rate of divorce, we also have a high rate of remarriage. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior and older men who were previously married are more likely to marry than older men who have never been married. A divorce does not mean that the marriage was entirely or mostly negative--sometimes people just grow apart or they do not have the maturity to make it work.

If a black woman is interested in dating indefinitely, then there are lots of nice white men out there for that, but I feel sorry for the woman who thinks she will change them. I accept that I am not beautiful, sexy or smart enough to change a man who is a habitual dater or fears commitment. I learned that the hard way. When he told me that he loved me and wanted to be with me forever,I thought that meant marriage; after 4-1/2 years passed I came to my senses. When I ended the relationship, he tried so hard to get me back and even cried when he realized that I would not give him another chance; he felt that we were already married (he would actually introduce me to others as his wife) and he did not understand why I needed a "piece of paper". I do believe he did love me but whatever was driving his fear of commitment, I could not fix and it was not my problem to fix even if I could.

I don't think that it was my race (he is white) because he had been involved in 2 previous long-term relationships with white women, each lasting at least 5 to 7 years. Both of those women had wanted to marry him and ended up married less than 2 years after they left him. Instead of seeing that as a red flag, I was foolishly impressed by his ability to be in monogamous, long-term relationships.

We all have a right to judge people to some extent,and I am very leery of older men who have never been legally married. There should be no charity or affirmative action in dating, because no one has a right to get to know another person intimately.

Now I understand where your apprehension is coming from. I've never been in a long term relationship, in fact it would not be an option for me without marriage, so I'm there with you.

Here is a great link Khadija from Sojourn Passport found for us....its about a husband/wife partnership who created this very interesting and useful site for men:

http://artofmanliness.com/2008/11/30/the-case-for-marriage/

lol, not telling a woman or a man that you love them 1st when you 'genuinely' feel the emotion sounds more about control issue than anything else. If you feel the emotion and mature enough to comprehend and know what stage your relationship is @, don't see the problem whether a man says it or not. I judge people and their suppose love for me by how they treat me and the quality of my relationship. I Never said I love you to a man, but that has nothing to do with some games we are playing with each other and more with the fact I never felt such emotion...and no crush or lust does not count.

Neecy;
I agree. I do not want to scare all black women who are being pursued by younger WM, but they should be aware of the potential pitfalls.

It is true that black women can look 10 years younger, easily. Such a woman will attract both older and younger white men. Sometimes the younger WM may genuinely want her, but he also wants children. I can understand his position, but he should not pursue the woman if he feels he may want children at some point in the future.

LostKitty SAID:
Also, if she is like many black women and has not been treated well by the men in her life (which is possible even at 48), she may misinterpret his respect for her and his appreciation of her friendship as love.

I SAY:
This here is EXACTLY what BW should be discussing with each other in terms of IR dating and expectations. B/C i feel many BW will run into this dilemma. You know the nice White guy who is just being NICE and respectful and b/c most BW usually never have many "nice" experiences with BM (who often disregard the feelings of women in general - especially Black) she may misinterpret his niceness and respect towards her for being in love.

I believe many BW will have to really understand the difference culturally between White and Black men in terms of how they view and treat women in GENERAL (yes there are damaged crazy men in all races, but we all know that typically certain groups of men treat women a lot better than other groups of men)as well, b/c a a BW you become accostomed to seeing so many disrespectful BM, that when a normal NOn black guy comes along who is simply being nice, courteous and respectful, you may misinterpret that for being in love or having feelings for you.

The fact is WM typically *can* be a lot kinder or nicer towards women than most BM, b/c culturally BM still get rewarded when mistreating BW. WM on the other hand will be taken to task more often for mistreatment of women and therefore, culturally I think strive to be a bit nicer and/or respectful. Not b/c White is right but b/c culturally WM are held responsible for their mistreatment of women unlike BM who are coddled at all costs.

Neecy:
I agree that these are the kinds of things that BW should be focusing on with these blogs, not stuff like "how are we supposed to love ourselves when our own men don't love us because we are dark-skinned" or complaining that some BW are trying to keep WM for themselves and not helping other BW to find dates.

We need to prepare ourselves to successfully interact with WM by understanding how they think and behave differently from BM, what they and their communities perceive as positive or negative with regard to things such as manner of dress, speech, appropriate feminine and masculine behavior and appearance, responsibilities toward children and family, friendships between men and women etc.

Hi Neecy and Lostkitty,

I'm so glad you guys are discussing this. I brought this up briefly last week and I was hoping that you all would weigh in on it.

Yes, a lot of BW have become accustomed to sub par treatment by BM that many can’t recognize normal/decent male behavior. I believe many of us will have to be educated/reeducated on how the determine normal basic male manners, that WM often exhibit, in my experience.

Neecy, you're right it's definitely cultural. In the white community, the male/female roles are clearly defined while in the black community the roles have been reversed somehow, so the male/female dynamics are completely out of whack.

I going to share a few things I'm learned over the years dating WM, in my experience:

- Don't approach them first - make them come to you
- They like women who act like women - no power plays. Just be your natural girly self and drop the hard façade, it's not needed here.
- Never let him see you go for your wallet on a date, especially, the first date. By the way, if any guy asks you to pay for anything on a first date, dump him his ass.

That's all I have for now but you all get the point, right? Just be a girl. By the way, a normal heterosexual man is not interested in a woman who possesses more male energy than he does, it’s very off putting.

Actually, what I meant to say was Masculine Energy not very appealing at all.

Do a lot of black women, especially the educated and career oriented ones still think dating a man who treats you well somehow means he love you?

I hope we don't have such low standards for ourselves we confuse genuine human decency with actual love, which takes more commitment and interactions.

Do a lot of black women, especially the educated and career oriented ones still think dating a man who treats you well somehow means he love you?

In my opinion, if she was raised in the BC and didn't have a father or a healthy male figure growing up. I think she may be confused when she encounters a normal/decent non-BM.

As you know, BW are usually socialized to have very standards when it comes to choosing a mate.

Liza207;
Masculine Energy not very appealing at all.

lostkitty:
It seems to be so hard for black women to accept that masculine heterosexual men want feminine women. White men are not interested in 'strong black women' as BM are because they are not raised to use women to get through life. They have accepted that they, as men, are to be providers and protectors, no matter how difficult that job is. Many of these masculine BW will blame their skin color for their failure to attract WM.

I hate it when I hear a BW say that she cannot date WM because they can't handle a 'strong black woman'. Of course they can't handle it; black men are the only ones who want manly women. And even those black men who seek out strong BW reject them in favor of a non-black woman if or when they achieve financial success

This is an interesting line of thinking. You know, this might have tripped me up a while ago in some IR situations.

Note: I have never truly been hurt in dating relationships by BM. So I'm not coming from that perspective.

That being said, I've found that when BM aren't interested in a relationship, they don't bother to ask me on a date or go through the motions of dating. In a way, I appreciate that because at least I always knew where I stood.

WM, on the other hand, would be perfectly happy to date me -- which often included nights out at nice restaurants, going to cookouts with friends, etc. -- and still not have any intention of starting a relationship with me.

For some reason (I have my theories), recently divorced WM were always drawn to me like moths to a flame. They came on strong too and I took that pursuit as a sign that they were interested in a serious relationship. So imagine my shock after about three months when I made the assumption that we were girlfriend/boyfriend and they would say, "Oh, I'm really not looking for a relationship right now."

WHAT??? But if not, why did you just do all that stuff you did over the last three months?

Some would say that they enjoyed dating me and wanted to continue doing so. But they also had no plans to commit to anything more than that.

I had to move on, but it was often painful because I developed feelings for them. I was not used to that type of behavior where a man pursues simply for the sake of the pursuit or for the purpose of being in the company of a nice woman... with no intention of something more serious.

Long story short... if you are a BW who wants a committed relationship, assume nothing about the behavior of the man, no matter how nice it is. Make sure your expectations are set early and that you always know where you stand. And maybe pay attention to the intentions of recently divorced non-black men... and don't take said men too seriously.

(Again, that's my opinion based on my experience!)